*OFFICIAL* Alienware 17 R4 Owner's Lounge

Your first mistake was making the purchase, but returning it and getting the MSI or a Clevo P7 or P8 DM2/3 will treat you much better!

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Actually it was my second, bought and returned a 15 R3 first

 

Well, it is ok to make mistakes so long as they can be corrected. You just have to make the correction...

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Yes this is true. That is why it is suggested that if you are within your return period that you request an exchange.
If you are after your return period it is best to have them replace the heat sink so you can get the new pads they use.
It is only at that point you should the do the re-paste and pad replacement.

 

These have hit the outlet and I can get the following for around 1300 after 10% ebates:

2 years premium support (automatically added on)
6820HK
16 GB ram
256 NVME ssd
1 tb HD
1920x1080
1070 gpu

I will be using an Amex card so that will add an additional year warranty along with an extra $100 cash back from AMEX. Think Dell will address the heat sink issues on the returned systems? It seems this might be the best deal for a 6820HK cpu and 1070 gpu.

 

@iunlock Hi, I've got an Alienware R4 QHD gtx 1080 on the way that I snatched up for £2000, however after this thread I'm rather concerned.... Can you tell me whether you recommend the GT73vr gpu 1080 or the latest R4 with the heatsink fix?
The last time I repasted was a CPU 10 years ago on a normal computer where things were simpler.

 

I have both systems of you want to PM me


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I had to post

Had to post here as I'm too new to send PM's. Would appreciate your input though.

 

I sent you one


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Nice to see that Dr Phil seem to have joined us here now

 

Lmao! Just trying not to make people feel bad for bad life choices... Instead, that should be turned on alienware for being willing to screw customers!

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Ignoring the faulty AW's, here is my general answer to your posting this point here and in other high performance laptop threads - value of desktop CPU vs laptop CPU

You keep saying that, that people will do much more than gaming, but in all my experience helping other owners, gaming is 99% of their highest performance usage, most people don't do VM simulations or run batch jobs on their laptops, all the rest of what they do could be done with a nice dual core ULV laptop / tablet.

I do have those extra heavy duty CPU performance uses, but for me I still want my laptop to be quiet and to help me get along with everyone else in the office, on the road, or at home. That extra few percent of performance from a desktop CPU isn't worth the noise and the social disturbance it creates.

I know people are going to say de-tune the CPU to reduce the noise, but then whats the point? If I am paying for all that performance I am going to need to use it to make it worth the expense and the extra effort spent tuning get that extra performance, and at those usage levels the fan noise is prohibitively disruptive to those around me - including me

Again, for me tuning time is not an issue, but for most other people when it gets down to it, they don't have the inclination, time, or want to gain the experience required to get that performance out of their laptop - they just want it to work as expected out of the box, and to do it quietly.

We can get GPU performance adequate to the task with the best mobile CPU's, even the 6700HQ is "ok", a 6820HK stock is not much better, and while tuning the 6820HK for 4.0ghz on 4x cores will give more FPS in games, is it enough to make it worth while?

For most games at 1080p / 1440p, enabling G-sync and system wide v-sync and/or RTSS frame limiter at 60hz is going to lop off that top end performance need anyway.

Going from 150+ FPS down to 120 FPS or down as far as 100hz - 100 FPS / 60hz - 60 FPS is going to eliminate the need for the extra FPS provided by a hotter tuned CPU.

I think most people will be happy with the 60 FPS to 120 FPS performance as de-tuned by G-sync / system V-sync, which eliminates the need in most games for that extra kick in performance - which will also reduces heat generated and reduces the resulting fan noise.

It's all about minimum performance needed for the task, to reduce cost and noise, it's not maximum performance at any cost for most people

 

Actually, $3K alienware vs. $2K P7 series, no question. $3K vs $1.4K msi. No question.

People want their money's worth. AW isn't worth its cost now! I agree with the point you make, generally. But in that same vane, if that is all they want, you can get that at half the cost. This is also to help keep people from overpaying and to show AW they need to either create a better product or lower the price! These machines are what they are, but that doesn't mean consumers desire or deserve to be fleeced!

We want performance while getting the rest. When in public, you down clock if you want quiet. You forget, any decent laptop, even with bga crap, may have fans that ramp and create noise. You choose to either not do certain tasks at certain places or you tune.

By purposely running the cpu so hot regularly, they expect thermal degradation. Until recently, I had only a laptop for all uses. It is because of the exit of standard mxm cards while still charging the mobile premium I built a desktop. But most now only own one computer, a laptop! As such, it needs to reasonably be able to perform all tasks the user may need, regardless of frequency. Otherwise, if users want a cheaper option like a weaker chip, let them buy a more moderate item. The point is, no one should pay $3000 for a piece! And yes, AW's cooling makes it a piece. If it was $1600-2K, choose what you want. That is why you don't hear the bashing on MSI nearly as much. $1400 vs desktop cpu and 1080 gpu at $2k. You pay more, you get more. At $3K, you are going against getting a P870DM2/3. Sorry, but one has more power and if you are willing to pay that, you deserve to get your money's worth. Would you pay $180K for a Lincoln town car. Why when you could get an Aston Martin? I like Lincoln, but I also understand value!

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For some it's a purely cost and performance equation.

Others value style and convenience over pure performance.

If people can only get the style they want at higher prices and lower performance in comparison to other similarly configured laptops they clearly will.

The AW and Razer 1080's are currently all about cost for style and thinness over performance.

And, like the guys in the Razer Pro 1080 owners group have already said, "get over it, and let us get on with helping our fellow Razer owners".

It's like they hear and see, but just don't care about the same things we care about, go figure

 

Will the 10w make a difference?

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Oh hell yes 10w will make a difference...you can overclock massively with 10w more overhead.

 

Great !!!!


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Throttlestop !! Create 4 Power profiles. You can have both as Winnie the Pooh said
Profile 4) BGA performance if you want or need silence.
Profile 3) A little more power if you still want silence.
Profile 2) Even more power, but with a little fan noise.
Profile 1) Finally max power and max fans and you can fly to the moon. You are not locked into BGA speed!! I would call this an advantage. Why should I wanted something else?

 

10w/180w = 5%, so I doubt you will see much FPS improvement.

 

The gt73vr can pull 220w in guess that why my OC is much better on that

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Yes, like I said, de-tuning for quiet operation removes the performance advantage.

Since I could successfully run everything in lower than Profile 1 - even if I could benefit from the added performance I couldn't use Profile 1 without disrupting others.

So if I go in knowing I won't be able to use Profile 1 often enough to make it worthwhile, then why not buy a laptop that will run everything the same as in Profile 2, 3, 4, and do it cheaper, quieter, and in less weight and space?

Laptop CPU's can do everything most people want to do, and while a Desktop CPU can do more, most people don't need it or want the added weight, space, noise or cost.

 

Yup, 50w up from 170w, 220w/170w is a 30% improvement that will show a real improvement in performance.

But, if the performance is already enough to meet G-sync / system V-sync limits, anything over that isn't going to be needed, or experienced

 

MSI +203W vs. 170 or maybe updated 180W from Alienware. Thought I heard Mr. Azor said that the other OEM throttled down TDP on their GTX1080 and not themselves. Perhaps someone should take up the issue with the AW boss? Ask why they put a TDP limit lower than what other OEM use for 1080.

 

The msi has pulled 220 with OC


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Hence +203. The number 203w comes from former Firestrike test shown here in the thread.

 

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@iunlock > I thought you said 180watt 1080s were a done deal. In fact you did a mic-drop ...

"we will release full potential in near future"

"No performance compromises, no throttling".

I done told ya'll Azor was a used car salesman ... ... ...

 

Quick question on running thermal tests. A friend of mine has the HP omen 17" with a 1070 and 6700HQ. When running prime 95 (26.6) and furmark, the GPU usage will fluctuate from 13% to 99% - it probably averages around 50% and will only hit 99% for a split second before dropping drastically. When I looked at the following review for the 17r4, it seems that the GPU stays at 99% when running furmark and prime 95 - around 15:52:



Is this due to the Omen throttling the GPU when the CPU is stressed? The omen's GPU will run at 99% without prime 95 running but once you fire up prime 95, the GPU usage will drop significantly.

 

It is written here...


But why not put 180w max TDP immediately when the machine was released with 1080? Why 170w?
http://forum.notebookreview.com/thr...houghts-and-impressions-hit-or-a-miss.795629/

 

It could be a lack of power to run both the GPU and CPU at full power at the same time.

That is in fact one of the things we are looking for when running both P95 and Furmark

In those cases I usually tune for maximum GPU performance, with a de-tune on CPU performance - either disable OC on CPU or if already at stock then further reduce the CPU multiplier to a lower level - say 35x x 4, or lower depending on the CPU.

Undervolting the CPU would also provide more power for the GPU.

For most games that is the combo that gives the best FPS. Highest GPU performance with enough CPU performance to feed the GPU.

What is the power adapter wattage?

 

Thanks. The adapter is 230watts. CPU is running 4 cores at 3.1 GHZ. Is this scenario fairly common and should I expect similar with the 17r4 with the 6820HK overclocked?

 

It's likely the extra power drawn from OC'ing the CPU and GPU that's put running both p95 + furmark simultaneously at 100% utilization beyond the reach of the 230w PSU.

You could try reducing the CPU multiplier, I'd drop to 4x 35x just to give it a big change, and see if both p95 + furmark will run at 100%.

I think I would also back track to defaults for both CPU and GPU and see if at stock speeds you can run both p95 + furmark at 100%.

IDK if anyone has reported the results from running p95 + furmark with the 17r4 6820/1070.

If the components are at the same power draw as the HP Omen, I think the PSU's are the same - 230w - then the results would likely be the same.

If the AW or other 6820/1070 laptop using a 230w power supply can support both CPU and GPU at full power running P95 + furmark, then there would be something else limiting power - like the BIOS/EC/firmware.

Ortherwise you could try replacing the 230w PSU with a 330w PSU, and hopefully the BIOS/EC/firmware doesn't limit using the additional power, that would provide enough power to run both p95 + furmark at 100%.

Please post updates as you test / try new settings and configurations

 

Unfortunately we do not have a 330w PSU. After looking at the video again, it looks like all four of his cores are locked at 2.6 ghz and TURBO has been disabled. I am fairly new to gaming laptops but have built desktops for years. I was somewhat surprised to see this behavior on the laptop as I have not seen it on a desktop.

 

Ok, on the Omen with turbo disabled all 4 cores were pegged at 2.6 GHZ (same as the 17r4). The GPU stayed at 98%/99%(same as the 17R4). CPU temps hit 73c and GPU hit 69C. CPU temps are about 10c cooler while GPU is about the same when compared to the 17r4 with the same CPU/GPU. So basically, this means that the 6820HK is probably worthless on the 17r4 with the 230w PSU since you will not be able to overclock the CPU without gimping the GPU?? I imagine if one had an Alienware Graphics Amp. that would help and then you could overclock the 6820HK while enjoying the benefits of a desktop GPU. It seems strange Dell would push the 6820HK without supplying a PSU that would allow you to use it....

 

AW17R4 - GTX 1080
-Personal Unit-

Grizzly Conductonaut
Heat Sink Mod(s) + Fix
Fujipoly 17.0w m/k

OCCT on stock 36x for 2 Hours:

 

Anything with fan noise


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Seems to me like Mr Azor & co said a lot of things that unfortunately turned out to be not true.

 

Dell has done this before, provided an inadequate PSU for the configurations that need it, so I would complain to HP that your tests show the 230w PSU is limiting the usefulness of the 6820HK, and ask for a 330w PSU as the solution.

Please keep us informed how HP responds, as when this happened before, enough people complained that Dell was prompted to start shipping a 230w power supply instead of the 180w they were shipping.

Also, when you test on Dell hardware with the same configuration, and there is a problem there too, then the same can be done with contacting Dell support for an upgrade from a 230w PSU to a 330w PSU.

Good luck

 

Do you mean that you dont have it or that the 330W PSU beint sold is fake?

 

Well, Dell solved that problem by yet again F-UCK UP. Delivery was promised and planed for today (kind of important as most of Europe have Christmas Eve tomorrow). But turned out that it won't happen as Dell seemed to have lost some of the packages in the way (although there should only be one package as Dell always seem to handle each item like a separate PSU as a unique order with different deliveries for all). Talked a bit off the record with Schenker, their delivery partner in Sweden, and they said that Dell was by far there most problematic customer. Which I can only agree with as ALL my attempts to by something from Dell have ended with a fiasco even before the products were even delivered (and returned).

Now, this is of course not really related to the AW17 specifically, but it underlines the fact that Dell have absolutely no control of either QC or logistics. I'm trying to remember why I even bothered ordering from Dell yet again....how stupid I am...

Edit:
Perhaps I should add that originally promised delivery date was something like 2 weeks ago...

 

Great choice. The GT73VR is a fine choice and of course out of the box it will demolish the AW hands down. Although the newer AW's are being shipped with the fixed thermal pads, the GT73VR will still top it performance wise out of the box and tuned. However, this does not mean that the AW is a bad purchase if one will either A.) Stay stock and just drive it under 60MHZ or B.) Will repaste and get it fixed.

Stock GT73VR > Stock AW

Tuned+Fixed AW > Stock GT73VR

Tuned GT73VR ~ Tuned AW ...just depends on the driver and tuner.

The GT73VR has more power delivery on the GPU side and should yield some great benches although on the CPU end, the 6820HK is the 6820HK. I've gotten over 100W on my 6820HK and the OCCT stability tests have been great too.

Yes that is very true. Unfortunately, but it was said that they are working on getting the international support up to par...

Well that depends. To be fair, if you are going to run stock then of course the GT73VR. Even if you plan to repaste either one, then it boils down to your usage habits and design choice, which is obviously subjective.

I along with others have shown what the system is capable of.

3M makes them, but you can also take 0.5mm pads and squish them with your fingers to flatten them out. It works wonders.

I take it that you're on 1.0.8? Yea, I'm in the process of testing this out at the moment...hmm...either way, I OC'ed the GTX 1080 last night and played some games and it ran stellar.

3M does, but yes you can also use K5 and it'll work just fine.

Haha...yea if he's a power user who is actually utilizing every ounce of the laptops chipset, then yes...even a P775DM3 would be a fine choice. There's nothing like having a LGA chip and running at 4.6GHZ like nothing is even happening...no stress...

If you plan to repaste and repad, then it really doesn't matter. Old batches or new batches...same same... it's only a nightmare if you're planning on running stock and never repasting.

What do you usually do? Game? CPU intensive tasks? VM? Any of those can be accomplished on either system, but again if you are going repaste it anyway, then it just boils down to personal preference. You'll get some extra headroom on the GPU end with the GT73VR, but it really depends if you're needing all that power.

Yea it sucks that the few can ruin it for the whole crew... there are guys at Dell who genuinely care, but the ones that have dropped the ball is obviously making everyone look bad. I get it... Just 'gotta' give those who are trying and making an effort for trying.

Well said. It's apparent that a lot of folks are forgetting that it's not always about going full throttle every time the car hits the road.

Practicality is being overlooked here and most of the comments bashing on these machines are out of hatred for what Dell has done to them in the past. I get it...I'm unhappy as well about what happened, but there are options so it's a waste of breath to try and troll about something that I don't like when in reality; with Pascal and a worthy mobile chip like the 6820HK that can hold its own for what it is.... well it's a mixed feeling...

On one end I'm glad that the unlocked chip and Pascal is available on the gaming laptops, but on the other end having such options is the only string Dell is hanging on with their gaming laptop line.

If Dell were to ever rid the unlocked CPU option on the gaming laptop line, then that will be the end of days...however, although we've been forced to take things with a grain of salt by what they say, it has been said that an unlocked CPU will always remain in the line up...

In one way I feel like I'm climbing up a mountain only with one line and without that 2nd safety line. That's why I always tell people to not put all your eggs (trust) into one basket (company) as things could change fairly quickly...

As an enthusiast I'll bench anything and like you brother I'm not caught up in all this bga / lga polishing drama...it's just a waste of breath and energy that can be put toward something more productive like....benching?! LOL .....

The point is, give credit to where credit is due. It's not just about portability, but it's also about practicality and again a lot of people are forgetting this. Ex. For someone who flies ~twice a month on a plane...really think it's practical to bust out a DTR to write my report for the upcoming meeting in NYC? - .... Right? It almost gets childish to be arguing about this so that's why people like you, myself and others don't get caught up in this mess...it's just silly.

This is not to discount dumb choices though. Ex. Right now the top end AW17R4 is $3599 currently. That's just retarded....but hey...freedom of choice....although it won't be a smart one so people...no don't pay that.

Yes, value wise a P775DM3 will demolish anything in this class. (P870DM2/3's being excluded as they are at least to me a class above when it comes to performance.) - The thing is though, the majority of the customers are gamers so pretty much any Pascal equipped machine with a decent mobile chip....well 6820HK, will cater to most of their needs. There is no denying that one would get more for their money on the fact of having a LGA alone, but that is only if one really needs all that power.

The comes the other factors....the biggest being build quality, keyboard, trackpad, etc...

Yea, you're right and even I'm guilty of it...not afraid to admit what I've said, but my comments about the RBP was purely directed toward the price tag of $4000 and being equipped with a 6700HQ. Then again, this goes back to personal preference and hey if people want to fork out that cash for a 6700HQ.................although that hurts to even think that Razer thought it was okay to put that chip in that laptop, to each his own... It's obvious that the price premium here comes in the design and engineering to a certain degree. - And that screen...best in the industry at the moment for content creators.

You've forgot Profile 5) Looking silly and hogging up all your space and the persons space you're seated next to on the plane, but a big bulky machine. What's more practical, something like a MBP/Razer Blade for word processing or a DTR?

It's not all about running at red line all the time. There is no practicality in driving a semi-truck just to go pick up some beer at the grocery store. - Let's not get into this here...after all it is an AW lounge.

I get it though...trust me...I get it... like I've said...someone has to do it right?

Indeed.

You've hit the nail on the head. "Laptop CPU's can do everything most people want to do, and while a Desktop CPU can do more, most people don't need it or want the added weight, space, noise or cost."

Practicality + Portability = Something that is practical and portable haha.... I don't get how this is so hard to understand.

The truth is...most gamers can get a way with 1060's lol... and we're all here pinching away at the 1070 and 1080's

To be taken with a grain of salt as we know. The quotes are from them, not I... just relaying a message at the time. (see comment right below..)

Don't shoot the messenger. In the event of lies and bubble gum fluff, the injustice falls on the originator, not the messenger.

Exactly my point to the comment above. I've even indexed for everyone to see... just passing along the message.

Crazy week / weekend with Christmas. Hang tight.

If you're purely referring to the GPU then....~10w 'worth' untrue?

I don't agree with people saying things and not pulling through, but for me to sit here and get sour over 10w would be a bit silly considering....

(Note: Valid Score.)

 

Ummmmm, the way I 'members it, you told a certain 'class' of NBR membership here to basically shut up with the conspiracy theories & suck it. That's hardly being just the innocent messenger. All those walls of text you constructed to fend-off Clevo owners, based on the 'fact' of the 180w 1080? BGA 1080 on equal par to MXMs? No time or need to copy/paste example statements, but here paraphrased: what will the haters say next? SMH, they need to get a life, let's all laugh while they stutter, yadda yadda

Come on man, you milked it way back when ​

To your credit, given it'd take a few months for 1080s to ship out, you made it a point to say: 'we'll have to give the gimped-1080 Conspiracy Theory a wait & see' ...

We waited, now we see

Just to wrap this up, & no hard feelings, but I dare say that premature ejaculation strikes again *cough cough*

edit
I'm a nominate you as 2016 Member of the Year
- what I said above? part of the Roast in the award ceremony -
_____________​

Now someone needs to get Azor to explain exactly wth all this means, why did they gimp it for, how & when will they release the Kraken

A final point: I'll note yet again that the Alien Reps have abandoned ship here - not one peep out of them - yet, of all the forum's I belong to, here is where the true battle's taken place. They don't have the common decency to help people out here? It's all just a twitter-fest? You approach them & report back your findings here for free? Not a dime of company time spent on Repping this place, troubleshooting, getting hands dirty, pitching in, logging in. Mmmm hmmm. Their inability to Rep this place is a disgrace, am I wrong or am I right

 

So, this is what I'll say, thin and light has its place, but not as a gaming machine. It cannot do the high performance in public and stay quiet at stock. Your mods are what was learned and honed on Clevo. Over 90% of users are unwilling to use liquid metal or pay for fujipoly 17 to fix the problem.

My larger point is AW is as bad as Apple. Even mbp or mba is overpriced, but they come in cheaper than this pile. You admitted yourself, msi and Clevo outperform. Check the msi thin and light line and compare performance. Even Linus got jealous of msi over his razor. You have to remember, though, that techies that like razor have the power desktop config. Those that buy an AW off of history, it was not thin and light back then. It was as thick or thicker than Clevo. Now they gut it, under power it, and ask for that old premium on a quality no longer present. THAT is why we bash them!

If you brand for prestige, you are part of the problem. That is why companies consistently drop quality while charging a premium. It is also important to inform people that a brand is not worth what it once was and why! This is the sharing of information to allow for a market correction. Think of it like securities (stocks, investment contracts, private placement memorandum, etc.). Securities laws are based on making sure the market is trading on equal information, as information gives an unfair advantage. As such, sharing what is now different from prior products allow the public to price in the changes. This can shrink demand, thereby reducing price due to the company needing to liquidate inventory. It also allows consumers to purchase what is a better fit for them at a better price, thereby making the market more efficient. The companies will change production according to economic forces, thereby producing better products in the long run. That isn't true, though, when blind brand loyalty is present! Blind brand loyalty is relying on the goodwill built up in the brand and does not compound info into the price. This means people are making bad decisions unless someone can overcome that loyalty by providing info to the purchaser. If you noticed, I pointed to other brands that do mobile chips rather than lga, even though I dislike bga. Why? So that those that need the information can look past my bias and see the other brands I pointed to provide a better product at less than half the price. It is about the best deal, and AW is no longer worth it. They flushed the brand down the toilet and now it's just another Dell with a premium price tag for the AW logo. That is what I take issue with.

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(EDIT) ...

Found info elsewhere on Kryonaut being hard to spread ...

"Kryonaut spreads like clay" ... was one quote I liked. LOL ... think I'll try warming it in hot water or something ... LOL ...

 

You'd do better posting in the Clevo forums, specifically the Clevo OC lounge, the P7 and P8 series. For laptops, CLU is better as it is thicker than phobya liquid metal and conductonaut. Kryonaut is a nano-aluminum TIM used for cooling. Now, we all have heard the complaints/arguments on proper spread. I still just use the dot, but dot or x had less chance to trap an air pocket than spreading it. If you must spread, use a card. Then use a toothpick for the angled edge to smooth it out. Also, I have never tried their attachment on the applicator, so cannot speak to its efficiency. But, remember the ihs is concave and many heatsink are slightly convex. If your heatsink is flat, not convex, you have to fill that area with TIM, something that may or may not happen if smoothed and not done so flat. Consider checking with a card after that the center is filled. Hope that helps.

Also, because of the aluminum, if you ever go to liquid metal, make sure you spend extra time cleaning as the aluminum interacts with the gallium in liquid metal.

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HP tech support was worthless and kept going back to "...this is done so the system does not overheat". The problem was that the system temps were fine. Also, the Omen has a 6700HQ and not a 6820HK. Fact is, the Omen apparently cannot run the 6700HQ will all 4 cores on turbo mode (3.1 GHZ) and the the GTX1070 at 100%. Needless to say my friend is now sending back the Omen! It will be interesting to see what my outlet Alienware 17r4 will do next week when it arrives; it shipped out this morning.

 

No. The PSU is a 230w one. It was suggested to try a 330w and see if the issue persists. Unfortunately, I do not have one.

 

Stock i7-6820hk, gtx1080 temp. just wanted to share the temp after OCCT at 47mins. let me know if any of you pros can see any issue with my laptop (throttling or cpu not dynamically overclocking properly). Thanks. no idea how to check the built date to see whether the thinner pads were used without prying into the laptop. the label on the delivery box doesnt mention the built date, only the built year. and the following is the status history as shown on dell website:
"Work In Progress 1/12/2016
Production Complete 7/12/2016
Manufacturing Build Complete 7/12/2016"

 

This is interesting - when running furmark only on the Omen, the CPU is pegged at 3.1 - 3.2 GHZ (turbo enabled) on all cores. GPU is at 98%-99%. Power draw is at 186w. When I attempt to run prime 95 in conjunction with furmark, power draw fluctuates from 113w (throttling - confirmed by drop in GPU usage %) to 220w - the power fluctuations occur about every second. Note that that when both tests are run, Turbo is disabled on the CPU limiting it to 2.6 GHZ. See photo:

 

I need help on my AlienFX lights. The lights are working and all lights are on but it seems I cannot change the color of the lights in the command Center. I tried unsintall/ reinstall the Alienware Command Center but still no go. Is this a hardware issue? Any solutions?