DAC/Amp Recommendation

Hi, I asked this already on head-fi.org but I didn't get any reply yet.
So I thought I'd ask here.
Most of the threads there are for headphones.
My setup right now is Klipsch Promedia 2.1 connected directly to my M18x.
And I use it mainly for gaming. and occasionally for music (320kbps mp3) and movies
I am new to this and I don't really know how they work or if they work differently for headphones and speakers.
Right now, the Fiio E17 seems really popular but it's not available anywhere.
I also don't really need the portability.
But it's not a bad thing to have. I could use it with my ipod touch 4g and UE TripleFi 10.
Other alternatives that I've been looking at are uDAC-2, Fiio E10, Audioengine D1, etc....
Please recommend me which one I should get.
Budget is not really a problem, but since I'm using $200 speakers, I don't really wanna spend more than that on a DAC.

 

The FiiO E10 is pretty good but be a tad careful with their build quality. Sound-wise, they are pretty good for their price. Otherwise, the Creative Labs X-Fi HD is also good. Better built and it has more features, but you will need to install the supplied drivers to unlock its best potential. The FiiO is already at its best out of the box and using generic Windows drivers.

 

Yeah, I've heard nothing but good things about E10.
However, the reviews say E17 is far superior to E10 (also more expensive).
But it looks like E17 won't be available until march.
What about E7+E9 combination?

 

It is a bit dated because of the E7 but compared to the E10 on itself, it delivers more amp power because of the E9. So if you want to shell out the cash for the E9 on top of an E7, then it is pretty good. I think the E9 is also compatible with the E17 too.

 

You may be best off that you didn't get feedback on headfi. There are some smart people there but most of them are just lemmings following along.

And the people they are following are too commonly people with more money than sense or they have some kind of placebo problem and swear you can hear a difference between a $2000 dac and a $200 one and that it matters enough to justify the cost.

Since like you said your not using super expensive speakers or headphones there is no reason to go with anything past what you have mentioned already and so any of them will work fine. Just get the one you like best or has a sale price available.

 

That is true. The biggest difference in audio is really the Headphones or your Speakers. The DAC only makes it a bit better and reduces sound distortion and noise. The amount of improved sound per se is hitting realms of moot, negligible or even placebo as Vicious said as you go up on pricier devices.

So you already got the good speakers and headphones, the DAC should be the icing on the cake. However, go for the one that is the most affordable that will ensure they will clear any distortion or noise to your audio feed. Otherwise, I really don't think you need to any farther than an E17 for your needs and the E17 is basically already hitting the realm that a DAC will start generating diminishing returns to your audio gear.

 

ViciousXUSMC gives valid audio advice...

*keels over*

 

Thanks guys.
For now, I ordered Audioengine D1 from their website because they offer 30 day return period.
I also got it for $152 after $0 tax and free shipping. ($169 on other stores before tax and shipping).
They're very recently released and I don't see a lot of reviews around.
There're only 3 reviews on amazon and they're all 5 stars.
Could very well be sponsored reviews though.
If I end up not liking it, I'll return it and wait for the Fiio E17 to be in stock again in march.

 

... but which was ignored. Oh well.

 

I don't know why you think I ignored him.
He said the ones I listed are fine.
I picked one of them.

 

Vogelbung believes that DAC's aren't worth it and that even the cheapest DAC will get the job done. I just think if it is reasonable-priced and has a good overall reputation, then get one. However, never get a DAC first without having good speakers or cans prior.

DAC's are like an audiophile's most subjective thing and so you need to tread a fine line in getting one that helps to make your existing audio, but not too expensive that it is just overpriced for what something cheaper can do.

 

Sort of. I think that your front-end (i.e. speakers and headphones) has to be at a certain level to make buying a discrete DAC worthwhile, and that the vast majority of people who buy <$200 DACs don't have that level of gear. I also think that a lot of discrete DACs at the low (i.e. <$200) end just are not worth the improvement you get in terms of comparison with a <$50 USB external soundcard - and furthermore, significantly higher-priced DACs tread the line of diminishing returns quite heavily.

I use high-end DACs, which I've benched and approved, because a) I have the front-ends that justifies it, in that it's hard to get significant levels of additional improvement from them and b) I want "insurance" that I'm getting the highest reasonable level of output and I don't mind paying for it.

Unless you fall into both a) and b), especially for PC use I think you're much better off putting your money into the front-end, and just getting one of these $30-$100 (at most) USB soundcards from the 'majors' (i.e. Creative, Asus), or a decent entry-level pro audio interface if you have a bit more cash burning a hole in your pocket.

 

I think a good way to buy audio equipment is based on this simple price structure if you want to get the full performance of your equipment.

Headphones Cost ~= Cost of Amplification + DAC

It would be absolutely pointless to plug in my portable pair of ath-50s into my WA2 / Bifrost and vise versa for my HD 800s into the fiio e11 clip+. That said, there is a point of diminishing returns that shows up with audio equipment. Is there a difference between a pair of $350 HD 650s with a $200 fiio e7/e9 combo versus my set up of WA2 / Bifrost and HD 800s with my laptop as the source? It's up the user to determine that but sadly most people don't have the opportunity to try out gear before they buy.

 

Yes that point sums it out brilliantly. Hence why I no longer want to own a DAC of sorts until I get back on my plan to get a set of M50's. The headphones makes the biggest difference in sound compared to anything else. The DAC is just there to get rid of distortion and noise from interference. The amplification is there if you really need it.

 

I received the D1 today.
Since this is a 24-bit DAC, should I change the windows sound settings to 24 bit?
While I'm at it, when I'm using onboard card, the 24-bit/192kHz option is there too.
Should I change it for onboard too?
Or just keep it at the default 16-bit/441000Hz?
Or it doesn't matter?

 

I believe the bottom line of what everyone is politely saying here is to consider the "system" in you audio system.

In other words, its only as good as your weakest link: It won't mean much if you own a Ferrari if you mount a pair of tires from your old minivan on it since you will only be able to go as fast as those tire will take you.

It doesn't matter. Again, your "links" are too weak to get anywhere near that level.

 

I understand people are trying to help me.
And I appreciate it.
I'm new to this too which is why I'm asking here.

 

I would encourage the use of foobar or winamp as your media player using the WASAPI/ASIO component to bypass the internal windows settings if you are using an external DAC.

 

Foobar in particular is just way-out-nerd for anyone who likes *music* IMO.

Try Mediamonkey, or my favourite compromise of nerd and relative usability as well as solid audio support, jRMC (though 'tis $50), though the audio-only, slightly cut down but free Media Jukebox might work just fine for you, not sure, never used it.

If you're using ASIO or if the interface is bit-perfect thru USB just keep it to 44.1/16-bit.

 

Thanks again Vogelbung.
+1 when I can.

I do already use winamp as my main media player.

 

It's an interesting point, and one that I've done many tests for - and as the results testify, many people hear a lot more with their eyes than they do with their ears. Still, if they're happy with e.g. a classy, antique-looking tube amp that can be outclassed by the codec in an iPod for fidelity, it's their prerogative / problem. The only real problem is of course when people like that start bandying around the words "better" for something that's almost purely subjective with no shared basis of comparison - but somewhat regrettably and flametastically, it happens all the time.

 

Some people like Winamp for the minimalism. Foobar isn't minimalist in the same sense. Mediamonkey is very popular and it has a fairly buzzing support forum too.

Songbird (an OSS Gecko-based media player) seems to be staggering along and I still like it's 'j.River with style' aesthetics, but sadly no usable high-performance audio support has ever turned up for it to my knowledge. Surprising given its origins, but they seem to be busy enough targeting the iTunes converts - i.e. the sort of people who would think WASAPI is a Japanese condiment.

 

(not trying to call you out or I might have misunderstood your points)

I can understand people falling for the hype of certain headphones or cables that magically make the user's music "better". But to say that a tube amp will be outclassed by an ipod is borderline insanity. The difference between my ipod to hm-801 is quite large and that's simply portable audio equipment. I can understand you not buying in on the hype of a tube amp vs a solid state amp or using a cheap pair of headphones with a tube amp; but to say that using high end audio equipment with a poor source doesn't seem logical. An ipod is simply not able to drive high impedance headphones. If you want to get the most out of your chain, you have to spend some cash in certain regards.

 

Oh yeah, the WA2. No, it wasn't specifically a dig at you but a general thing, but given the HM-801 mention for example (which I've also benched and saw zero reason to keep) I see it sadly elicits a typical Head-Fi BS reaction also in your case.

Drawing that comparison, I was referring to the relative quality of the audio that's thrown out by either, not necessarily the volume of amplification.

And FYI, there's no need for an iPod to drive high impedance headphones, though in most cases it works just fine (in fact, most PMP's benefit in terms of quantifiable performance from a reasonably high-impedance but efficient headphone in use).

What I am effectively saying is that provided you're at the baseline, it's actually reasonably hard to find a genuinely poor source these days - unless, ironically, you delve into the world of hardcore audiophilia (whether at the student-friendly end, or the 'need a second mortgage' end) with it's completely subjectivist delusions. And on the other hand, if you want insurance as I mentioned, the price of entry to genuine improvement over what's already decent is usually not student-friendly, and the differences are still relatively speaking miniscule.

In many cases, I've had quantifiably better results e.g. running the Qualia 010 straight out of a mobile phone than with some tubed exotica.

 

For a true audiophile the word "ipod" would be a bad word. Now if you'll excuse me, I must sanitize my keyboard for having typed that word.

 

I have been a long time Winamp user for what feels like forever its my go to music player if I am playing the music directly from a folder or location in windows.

For opening a program and letting the program have access to my full library I did try songbird and liked it a lot for it had tabbed browsing and it was like the biggest greatest thing ever.

But it was very limited in plugins and support, the idea it did not support a few music types and no embeded cover art I let it go.

I found foobar can do the tabbed browsing as well and in the newer versions its built right in with a preset so its my #1 choice now but simplicity, function, and flexibility.

I still use winamp just to play a file or hear a file, but foobar for when I want to listen to music.

Both winamp & foobar have quite a large plugin list and great compatibility.

 

I use Foobar for songs i listen to, and every other audio file type plays on Winamp. Both have good plug-ins