High Quality Headphone and dac

I'm looking for a high quality headphone. I'm a bit of an audiophile (can't spell sorry)

Also, looking into if a "dac" is worth it. Looked into the nuforce u-dac 2, and creative usb one as well. Any advise of these? Or are they more of a placebo effect?

I've looked into bose; they have great noise-canceling according to reviews. Sound quality seems pretty good as well. But I heard it's not up to par with the price range, and you're paying for the name, which I hate (apple!)

I'll do a fair bit of gaming, and a larger amount of music listening, so both are important. Style is important to me, don't want some crazy geeked out headphone. That's what I liked about bose, looked very minimalistic/stylish/professional. I would prefer to get headphones/dac that are the best of both worlds (good for music and gaming), but if I have to prioritize, mainly headphones for media and music come first. I'm only a casual gamer at best, so I can live without it

Be using a fair amount in my dorm mostly, so I prefer no sound leaking. And noise cancelling is a definite plus for when it gets loud (construction next to my dorm)

Anyways, any advice guys? You guys are the experts; I defer to your audiophile knowledge. Thanks, and reps of course to all those who chime in

Trying to keep the headphones under 200 if possible, 300 at max. Dac- I guess maybe 100-150?

I prefer clear crisp sound, that doesn't sound artifical. Also good deep bass. I don't need AMAZING sound, I just would like just like some decent quality sound.

•What is your total budget that you want to spend? I would say entry-level for the kind of quality you are looking for is $150. You get a nice bump in quality if you are willing to go up to $250, and another bump in quality at $400. Prefer to keep it under 200, 300 is a go maybe. I'll be buying off ebay or amazon if it is cheaper. If I can get 400$ headphones for 300 used on ebay, that's probably the extent I'll go
•What kind of music do you listen to? Pretty much everything, so I'll need a decent enough bass (not terribly important), but I would like crisp clean sound as well as possible
•What kind of games do you play? (e.g. FPS, RTS, etc) A couple fps (Fallout 3) Couple rts (Shogun2), and just mess around with old classics like rollercoaster tycoon 3, etc. Nothing really depending, and even if I did get crysis or metro, I would use really low settings anyways
•What laptop are you using now? Currently on an m17x r3, which has pretty decent sound already, but it doesn't sound fantastic with headphones. Might get something small like an asus eee pad transformer if I need to travel
•Do you also need headset (microphone) capabilities for in-game chat? not particularly, never been that competitive of a gamer. I'll probably play SWTOR when it comes out, and that might need it, but it is definitely not a priority
•How portable does this setup need to be? Are you only looking at In-Ear Monitors (very small - about the size of earbuds), or are you also considering full-sized headphones? My backpack has plenty of room for just about anything. I would prefer the dac to be no larger than my power brick (slightly larger than a graphing calc). For headphones, I have no preference, but I would consider anything withpremiums on price and quality. bose qc 15 had the ability to fold up and store in a pouch, and that is around the same size I would be looking for in an around-ear headphone. I'm fine with pretty much any size, as long as it doesn't get crazy

 

Yet you own an Alienware.

The NuForce uDAC-2 is most definitely NOT a placebo effect - as with any other DAC over $100. Many USB DAC's have a built in headphone amplifier as bonus. Another good USB DAC to look at would be the Fiio E7. Any half decent USB DAC will make your laptop's integrated static sound like a coffee grinder on steroids.

Forget Bose - you'll end up paying twice the price of any other brand for the same sound quality.

Nobody can really recommend you any headphones until you post what your budget is, and what sort of sound you like - light and detailed, strong, powerful bass, something that sounds excited and fast, or something a little more laid back.

Also, what would you describe as "geeked out"? Just interested.

 

Absolutely. Not tried the Creative; given their previous efforts I'd say it's less likely to be pure placebo though, but the Nuforce - to a large degree yes.

Try looking at pro audio soundcards - e.g. Focusrite's Saffire range - if you want a 'straight' decent quality output, both to speakers and headphones. The headphone amp stage will be nowhere near as complicated as some dedicated headphone amps, but the results you get will be pretty much as good - and the core sound quality will be decent.

If you're looking to spend less than <$200, I'd say the Fiio E7 is not a bad choice - but the gains you get aren't, to me, spectacular and you might be better off saving your cash for a better pro audio card. But the E7 is a nice device and priced right if you can't make up your mind between a PC DAC and a portable amp.

The Bose noise cancelling phones are actually very good, and the passive noise isolating phones range from the flabtastic to decent, but it really depends on what you're looking for. The AE2 for example is actually a pretty good all-round phone at a fairly reasonable price - sounds OK, comfy, socially acceptable, fair isolation, easy to live with, pretty portable. But putting what you want out of a phone / where you'd use it would make a recommendation easier to make.

 

I have some questions that might help get you an answer.

• What is your total budget that you want to spend? I would say entry-level for the kind of quality you are looking for is $150. You get a nice bump in quality if you are willing to go up to $250, and another bump in quality at $400.
• What kind of music do you listen to?
• What kind of games do you play? (e.g. FPS, RTS, etc)
• What laptop are you using now?
• Do you also need headset (microphone) capabilities for in-game chat?
• How portable does this setup need to be? Are you only looking at In-Ear Monitors (very small - about the size of earbuds), or are you also considering full-sized headphones?

I would also like to point out that you need to consider that your needs, as a gamer, are going to be much different than the typical buyer for high-end audio products.

Everyone in this thread so far has automatically jumped and said "Yes NuForce DAC! Yes pro-audio! Yes audiophile products!" But be aware that the audiophiles that buy these products have different needs than you. Those audiophiles are typically concerned with flat, neutral, accurate reproduction of 2-channel stereo sound. They care about things like soundstage, imaging, instrument separation, clarity, detail.

As a gamer, your needs are different. Gamers will want to prioritize things like accurate reproduction of surround sound in headphones (surround downmixing), and environmental sound processing capabilities (like Creative Labs EAX). Yes, audio quality is important to gamers too. And it is possible to combine the best of both worlds. But be very aware that when someone tells you that product XYZ is awesome, or product ABC is crap, that they may be evaluating products differently than what you need.

So when people automatically say that a 2-channel stereo NuForce DAC is awesome, they are talking about how awesome it is if you were an audiophile that only listened to music. A NuForce DAC is almost worthless when you're playing games, and need surround sound downmixing more than you need soundstage, imaging, or instrument separation.

If you could provide some answers to those questions I asked above, then we can help guide you into making a better informed purchasing decision.

 

No I haven't

 

I've updated my first post a bit, thanks for all the help so far, reps for all.

 

Can you hear any outright issues with your M17's audio?

 

Not really, bass is really lacking with onboard speakers. Nothing rattles so far (fingers crossed). It is much better than the average laptop, but since I spend a lot of time with headphones in anyways (to give myself and everyone else some peace and quiet), I thought it would be worth it to invest in a decent pair.

 

Then I'd say get the headphones first, then the DAC if you believe it's necessary - with decent laptop audio(and admittedly this is a crapshoot, with even machines which are sold to be 'good at multimedia' - e.g. crApples being fairly poor to abysmal in terms of built-in analog audio, while a business machine such as a Lenovo can have near-excellent through-the-jack analog audio), often there's no point in blowing your money on a budget DAC.

So that'll make your budget ~<$300, you need isolation, and for it to be nominally portable?

 

What exactly do you mean by isolation? I would like the headphones to be semi-portable at least (portable enough to stow away in a backpack, preferrably in a case). And under 300 would be fantastic

 

Isolation = noise isolating. i.e. not electronic cancelling but passive muffling of outside sound through closed construction.

Some suggestions - <$300, isolating, nominally portable, general purpose quality in mind but gaming possible:

1. You know, despite what some fauxdiophiles will say, for your use you could actually do a lot worse than the Bose QC15. Good cancellation and decent passive isolation combined, entertaining and pretty good quality sound, packs flat, not sure about game suitability though - ~$300. I would at least give it a try someplace.

2. Ultrasone HFI-780. Isolating (not that fantastic it has to be said, but usable), good quality sound, reasonably comfortable for most ears, S-Logic soundspace pretty well suited to gaming (It's not anywhere even Dolby surround, but the sound field around you is compacted and brought down to well separated layers, enhancing gaming audio). Folds (rather bulky package, but still). <$250.

3. HD25-1 II Adidas Originals (~$280) Amazon.com: Sennheiser Adidas HD 25 Orginals Headphones (Black/Blue): Electronics
Or the original (~$200): Amazon.com: Sennheiser HD25-1 II Closed Back Professional Headphone with Swivel Earcups: Electronics
Better pix here of the Adidas: Sennheiser HD 25-1-II Adidas Originals Review | Headphones | CNET UK
Ignore most of the review by the CNET rank amateur: It's bombproof, priced right... although I would have to say I would personally agree that it's not comfortable. Sound is on par with QC15 but a sharper character so sounds more high-res, and offers a very high degree of isolation so very suitable for portable / loud-outside-noise use, but the problem is that it sounds quite claustrophobic and I'd say it would be a poor choice for gaming - or at least, very likely worse than the Bose or the Ultrasone.

 

Thanks for the advice Vogelbung! I would rep you again, but it won't let me. I'll rep you when it clears up again. I'll be taking all your items into consideration, thanks!

 

You could do a lot worse than Bose for your headphones, but you could also do better, for the price. I currently use V-Moda Crossfades which I picked up on eBay for under $100. They isolate well and are extremely comfortable. They also sound great with their clear, punchy bass, have top-notch build quality (nearly indestructible), and are stylish to boot. I highly recommend them.

Ultrasone and Sennheiser are great options, and chances are you won't be overpaying for the brand names as you would with Bose. Among other less-marketed audio brands, the Audio-Technica ATH-M50's are fairly balanced, very clear and precise, and can handle a wide range of music and media for around $150. Be wary of fakes on eBay though. I would find a pair from one of these brands with a desirable sound signature, or check out reviews and discussion on head-fi.org. Yeah, they're serious audiophiles over there, but you will definitely get a general idea of what will meet your needs.

 

Thanks for the advice guys! I'll be repping for sure once the 24 hrs is up.

I've read reviews of bose, and they were generally favorable. But you guys seem to know a lot more about it, so I'm going to put my faith in you guys. Plus, it'll save me a boatload of cash

I'm really interested in Ultrasone. Can anyone chime in about them? They seem to be a bit bulky, but I like the style and build quality (air vents and metal on the ear part if I'm not mistaken? I've heard Sennheiser being praised around here, and if someone could throw in a few more mentions about them, that would be immensely appreciated. So far, it is down to the Ultrasone HFI-780 and ultrasone HFI-2400. Still looking into sennheiser models.

 

From what I've read here, no they don't - but let's assume you don't need/want the best cancellation.

The Ultrasone is indeed pretty bulky and it's also bulky when folded. The on-head look is actually (IMO) a lot worse than the Sennheisers or the Bose, as the massive headband makes you look like you have a head-mounted spoiler. If you're a pinhead-type who looks great to start off with, you can carry it off. If not, it looks a bit silly.

 

I'm seeing a ton of mentions for the NuForce units, but nothing in the way of Headroom's products. I am specifically referring to their line of DAC's ( HeadRoom Micro DAC) as well as their line of headphone amps ( Airhead and Bithead amps). Check them out; Headroom's products are all very good and you won't be dissapointed.

 

You're seeing them because they aren't $300. The Bitheads are of questionable value, certainly compared with e.g. the Fiio for example.

 

The Bithead and Airhead are some of the best (affordable) headphone amps you can buy. Not sure why you're saying the Bitheads are of questionable value...

 

Im usually quick to recommend the udac-2 because I own it and really like it.

Some people have a few bad things to say about it, but it sounds good and its built good, and you cant argue with those things.

However just looking around at current prices the most enticing deal I ahve seen is a E7 + E9 combo for $200 on ebay.
New FiiO E9 + E7 Earphone Headphone Desktop Amplifier | eBay

Of course you may have no use for the E9, but the E7 alone is the main alternative to the udac-2 I think, cost ~$100

I prefer the analog nature of the udac to the digital of the E7 but the E7 is going to look more "fancy"

 

which one would be better geared towards media (movies) and music? With a boost in gaming sound as well. I was leaning towards either the nuforce udac2 or the creative xifi usb. I read your review on the udac2, and it was very convincing.

 

i wouldnt personally want the xifi card

 

I mean that in terms of internal layout, there are cheaper options which work better.

 

Placebo isn't for everyone. But the E7 at least is better than many (even less) crappy laptop audio.

 

Added a poll, if you guys would be so kind as to vote your opinion. Thanks for all the advice so far.

 

Not really an audiophile, but picked up these a while ago

Amazon.com: Pioneer HDJ-1000-K Black DJ Headphones: Musical Instruments
Amazon.com: Pioneer HDJ-2000 Reference Professional Dj Headphones: Musical Instruments

Compared to my previous headphones, they sound really nice and they're very portable. Both came with carrying pouches too.

 

join Head-Fi.org

You'll learn a lot there.

I'm waiting on my pair of AT-m50's that's coming tomorrow

I'll be using mine for everything. I am a basshead, but I don't want to go deaf here.. need a good soundstage for BFBC2... soon BF3. Music genre varies, classical, rap, house/techno, metal core, this and that etc etc. So I was in the same boat as you when I was looking for a good can.

If you're looking for a portable amp...
A cheap well rounded amp, from research and reviews; I think Gary's PA2V2 is pretty sweet. Definitely tops a Cmoy unless if you like to do soldering stuff, then cmoy seems like a fun kit do over a weekend. Doesn't seem hard to do anyways. But quality, general consensus seems like PA2V2 tops a lot of portable amps; definitely the e5...

I was originally thrown between Sennheisers. Very neutral sounding can's. For Low-Fi closed cans, 448 seemed the best bet. 280 pros just seemed over priced for what they can deliver. For the same price you can get m50's.

What were you looking for again? Closed or Open cans?

If you're a basshead and that's all you care about, DJ100 pros, XB 500/700/1000.

But well rounded, I think m50's are the way to go. Definitely packs the bass so it's not lacking like Sennheisers. The highs are definitely very clear and mid's are good. The sound stage is pretty awesome.

Neutral sounding open cans, HD555.
Good all around with good bass open cans, AD700
Good all around with good bass close cans, m50, A700
Neutral sounding closed cans, SRH440/840

Bose I always considered as overpriced junk. Just like Beats. There's definitely a heck of a lot better stuff out there than those. Don't let the name Bose fool you.

If you can live with a neutral sound, not thumpy bass, but want a seriously amazing soundstage; for the price HD555, SRH440/840 is where it's at. Depending if you want closed or open.

Next step up is more high-fi stuff, starting to get out my newbie league... for now.. The audiophile purists over at head-fi.org can help though

Remember, burn in time is very important.

Also, try to avoid buying off ebay. There are A LOT of chinese clones. Especially in my case, the m50's; there are chinese clones everywhere on ebay. Not being racist here either, it is a legit china produce clone. Marked as a legitimate authentic product. Wrong.

Just remember, "if it seems to good to be true", don't buy. A lot of people got fooled into buying cloned cans. Make sure when you search around to buy, you need find out if they are an Authorized Dealer or not.

some sites that people over at Head-Fi said they swear by is, bhphotovideo.com
They price match and pretty good about it. No personal experience, but 100% of Head-Fi members recommends them as well as Headphones.com.

If you buy from Amazon, make sure it's FROM amazon. Not a third party vendor or third party and then fulfilled by amazon. Some people were sold clones.

Just want to make sure and very clear you know about about the legitimacy and authentic versions of the cans you'll be getting. Not trying to scare you but definitely an eye opener that you should watch out for; especially when you're spending a good $150..200 on headphones.. Don't want to get screwed here.




*Edit:

Also, BT770's get some pretty awesome reviews. A lot of Beyerdynamic cans are pretty amazing.

 

While Head-Fi is a great resource, you have to wade through a lot of crap. You need to really scrutinize people's recommendations since a lot of people don't know what they're talking about. Having said that, definitely go over users who have comprehensive reviews to get a good idea of why each can is good and bad and most importantly, when you narrow it down to 2-3, try to listen to them in person at a reputable store.

 

+1

10char

 

I am an audiophile and I own a pair of Ultrasone HFI-780 and they are some of the best headphones I have ever had the pleasure of using. In the world of professional headphones they are on the mid-low price range but definitely deliver performance far beyond what you pay for. I listen to hip-hop, techno, and the bass on these cans does not disappoint. For gaming, my laptop has an integrated mic so there is no issue for me and hearing Louis scream in Left 4 Dead is about as realistic as it gets.

 

Heh.

+2 on seeing them in person. Best has a couple but not a whole lot, check out a couple stores around you and listen to them.

 

also just got an email from headphones.com

10% memorial day sale all weekend with free shipping.

what ever helps for you

 

Centrance DACport - best portable dac/headphone amp
Ultrasone Edition 8 - best portable headphone if you're rich

Alternative headphones that don't cost over 1000$:

- Sennheiser HD25-1
Optional: HD25-1 customize by this guy:
Custom Cans Headphones: Custom Airbrushed DJ Headphones | Sennheiser HD 25-1 ii

- AiAiAi TMA-1 (HD25-1 lookalike - the customcans dude might want to customize those too).

Let me know if you if you have questions.

 

Thanks for all the replies guys! Been quite insightful. Not sure I want to get that in-depth though, I like good sound, but I'm not going to kill if the bass or something isn't amazing. Just better than average, really good quality is all I want. Thanks for all the suggestions, I'll be weighing in on them heavily

 

M50 + Nuforce dac here. Both should be under $300

Cant complain. Sounds good for music and even for gaming. Shooting an M95 rifle in BFBC2 sounds like your shooting it.

But if your into the movie surround sound or gaming effects then you might wanna look at a proper sound card instead.

 

sennheiser hd 280 pro, best headphone i have ever own

 

I have a quick request guys, if you list out a headphone, please let me know if it is noise cancelling, or if it particularly excels in one area (noise canceling, music, movie surround sound, gameplay noise, etc.)

Thanks! and +1 to all who have answered so far

 

i just ordered a pair of ATH-M50's. based on the online reviews, they're supposed to be really nice so i'm stoked. plus, soundprofessionals.com has them for about $120 shipped. the coupon ends 6/1/2011 for anyone that's interested in them.

 

I got a pair recently.

IMO, they almost need an amp to sound good. I mean, they're good straight off the bat, for the price, but there is huge difference between them being run out of something like an integrated laptop audio card and a proper amp capable of driving 300ohm headphones. They almost sound like a whole new headphone, much more lively, bass and sub-bass is much stronger, and the experience is a lot more interesting.

 

woot m50 club!

You'll love them, I'm still burning mine in, lots and lots of bfbc2 and music listening. Like what Amnesiac said, right out of the box; at least for me, they sounded awesome. Completely blew away my altec lansing ear buds. However, running a decent amp will greatly heighten the performance from my understanding.

 

thanks! =)

is there a certain process i have to follow to properly break them in? what is a good (cheap) entry-level amp to pair these up with? i honestly won't even use them alot. i just wanted something better for gaming on my laptop. i will occassionally listen to music and watch stuff, so would an amp be worth the upgrade for pretty mild use?

 

What's your budget? My first headphones were the Alessandro MS1i's. They're still $110 with free shipping. Great entry level open headphones for music and movies. I find my integrated audio doesn't put out enough power, so I just use my cheap Fiio E5 headphone amp, but there are much better amps/DACs out there. If I had $400, I'd get the CEntrance DACport (though I'd definitely upgrade my headphones before the amp/DAC and that would cost a lot more $$).

 

To properly break them in, listen to them as much as you can. Music.. Movies.. gaming.. tv. There are other ways of doing it like running pink noise that you can get from youtube and just run it on repeat. I personally find that pointless. I want to be able to hear the frequency and overall change of the cans when I listen to them

Would it increase the overall performance of the cans, yes. Is it necessary though? No. Just using it on my laptop and playing around with the EQ on itunes and the EQ on my sound card is enough to bring out the performance.

IF you were to buy a portable amp, the best bang for the buck is to make your own Cmoy (google cmoy amp kit), there's videos on youtube of people putting it together. If you don't want to build one, I would have to say based on research and audiophile reviews; it would have to be hands down the Gary PA2V2. According to everyone over at head-fi.org, Gary is an excellent guy and builds these amps by himself. He's also willing to do custom set ups and different variations to the amps. Just the PA2V2 itself is awesome without any specific customization or anything. That's probably the top on my list of things to buy next for laptop/headphone stuff.

Gary PA2V2

 

NO. Just wear them.

Break-in, in the oft-mentioned head-fi sense, is pure, complete, utter BS. It's not a component of the phone - it's a component of you.

You'd think in ten years, someone on Head-Fi would buy two pairs of phones, leave both in a controlled environment, "burn-in" one while leaving the other one alone and seeing if there's a difference.
_________________


How Head-Fi works is - if you like the phone you bought on a recommendation now, you'll tell other people how great the M50's are even though you don't actually know whether it's actually better than anything else. Now imagine hundreds of other people doing that. So there's this great volume of a peer-led recommendation that actually has no real basis in merit.

 

+1 Definitely a great recommendation for both Gary's PA2V2 and the DIY CMOY for those on a tight budget.

 

Might be a good time to ask you guys about converting vinyl albums to digital. My basic understanding it because of the close proximity of everything within a laptop it's better to use an external sound card- my soundcard in the F is good though. Now my knowledge gets even weaker. You do not want to use the 'mic in' because the quality is poor ( this is the biggest area of not understanding)? I will be getting a turntable, and my understanding is the sound quality is better if you do not get one with a USB cable connection and to go another way? I will be using Adobe Soundboard, can spend approx $300 on the turntable and maybe $250 on anything else that is needed. I see a lot of info for people recording their own music but not a lot of good info on recording vinyl using a laptop. Thank you for anyone taking a shot at this question.

 

Although burn in does seem hard to test if it is really prevalent or not; I see a difference. Everyone is different so not sure how sensitive your hearing is compared to others or mine. The way how the drivers react though especially for lower frequency; the bass has definitely smoothed and the mids are more noticeable after more use. Is it placebo? no. There is definite change after more use. Same ripped files, nothing converted from lossless to mp3 to different frequency or any of that junk.

 

Sure. There's a difference to you. And that's the problem. It's experience in isolation. You don't have a control.

I'm not saying there isn't a psychological difference over time - the human mind is an adaptable thing, and that includes how you perceive sound. With any headphone, there's a normalisation of experience over time. But this is not a component of the headphone - it's a component of, as I said, *you*. i.e. it happens over time regardless of the behaviour of the headphone itself in terms of how you perceive sounds.

And that's problem number two. Your subjective interpretation means squat in terms of relating to other people - so there has to be a control. And the fact that people talk about it with the lack of one is what basically results in it becoming a battle of egos. I'm not interested in that, because I've done the research already.

And yes, I have purchased two HD650's and did a burn-in test. I invite you to do the same for a (reasonable quality, since there are 'off-brand' and cheap phones that do actually degrade quite alarmingly over time, especially in hot & humid climates) headphone that you think benefits from burn-in. You'll need two new headphones, your source, an audio switch - maybe some converters - and a couple of minutes practicing swapping between the two headphones as quickly as possible.

Since most people attribute major changes from 50-100 hours onwards, I'd suggest going with that.

The key is to devise the test - specifically the phones switchover in a way that relies on your audio memory as little as possible, because despite any ego-driven assumptions about your audio memory that you may have, it is always, but always, the least reliable part of any comparative test - changeovers should be as quick and seamless as possible to allow the least reliance on audio memory when making judgements about changes in sound.

___________________________________________

Without a control your opinion means nothing that's worthy of discussion in terms of the behaviour of the headphones changing over relatively short periods in time.

 

Thank you for the information on your personal experience with burn in. Although I do not see the purpose of spending double the money for two pairs of the same cans; I would not know or be able to do a burn in test. However since you have, I would like to know more about what your thoughts and opinions from your testing experience. Do you have a thread here or another forum to be linked about the burn in comparison?

 

It's always the case. No-one ever says "You know, that's an interesting test to see if it's real. I'll go and do that sometime" or "No, I think you can do a more objective test this way". They always return with a tract on ultimately why its their impressions that matter.

I know my audio memory is incredibly unreliable, so I devise ways to work around it when developing my opinions.

 

Guys, if you want someone else to tolerate your opinion, you have to be equally accepting of their's. Debate using data and reason rather than taking things personally and hurling insults. Keep it cool and civil, and if you can't help but use insults, don't press the Post Reply button.

I've edited a bunch of posts--the next time that I have to do so, this thread will be closed. Thank you