What does NBR think of Samsung's XL2370?

I think everyone learns more in the end..... people read these despite not posting, which is a good thing... I can't tell you how many threads are like 134 pages long because people write one word and post! hahaha, people end up going to last page and posting a question that's been posted on page 57 or 103.

 

Sach, that is the most awesome list of questions, ever...

I like people who don't mind asking questions. I'm one of 'em! That's why I like forums. People who know what they're doing helping the rest of us out! And then maybe later, we'll pass it on.

Anyway, does anyone thing we'll be able to score an LED-backlit monitor like this (or the Dell linked in the cnet article) for anywhere near $220, within the next year? I need an upgrade, but I just don't want to swing 300 more at the moment. Sure would beat the cheap Acer I picked up last year. It works!

 

sadly most of that would be expected from a guy like me

but yes, i dont want to be single-out again, but i believe the problem with LED is that it isnt a high quality LED backlit, just from the edge vs local dimming, not sure feel free to correct me collegers. then it is probably only white LED instead of true RGB, that is able to replicate a wider color gamut. im thinking for 220USD, even if its a "LED-backlit" it wont be such high quality. i went with an ASUS VH236H, got it for 180bucks-30MIR, and its quite good for 150bucks. IMO, for 220USD, aim the Samsung 2333SW, its 23" and i heard its pretty good. two of my friends own the T190, and T220, respectively, and judging by those i can say samsung monitors are pretty dam good. last time i checked, the 2333SW was running xtremely cheap @ dell.com, like <200USD w/ free logitech wireless kb+mouse. altho im not sure if the deal is on anymore. it was so good tho, u could resell the kb/mouse for >=30bucks and the monitor was a bargain. look around the notebook deals subsection, CIN is ALWAYS, and i mean ALWAYS posting red hot deals.

 

here it is...OMGZ what a deal, i wouldve jumped on it immediately if i hadn't have bought my monitor then...so sad, looks like the deal is gone

 

The biggest thing I've learned in ENGR school...I really don't know a lot!

The 2333SW can be found for about 200 most anytime. I've been thinkin about it. There are some other ones I've got my eye on, doing some constant deal trolling. Stuff is getting cheaper, fast. And I'm loving it..

I totally agree with you, "LED" seems to just be mostly a marketing ploy to knock up price. It is just an edge-backlighting thing (from every source I've read). But I will say that those "LED" tv's are so dang slim, I like them. I'm no video-phobe, so I can't tell a difference between a good LCD, and an "LED" when it comes to display quality. But I do like the appearance of the LED's more.

 

yeah, that was a deal! Makes me want to buy something I really don't need! Darn.

 

haha well its actually CCFL vs LED, both will be TFT LCD, most likely using TN panels. the high quality IPS/VA panels are usually those >400USD dell monitors and such. and yes it seems LED is just a gimmick to lure u in, im sure CCFL, which my VH236H is, is fine as well. what were ur other choices btw? cuz i was thinking of the XL2370, now i dont like it. my original plan was to give my VH236H to my parents nad buy me a nice-r monitor, hopefully a thin one. i really dont think that gonna happen now, when i build a desktop fro my college years i'll make sure i buy a nice SPVA dell panel, those seem to be the best out there.

 

LEDs aren't a gimmick, but they may be overblown at times. I am an a/v enthusiast and maintain that the difference is significant with the right content. (mostly because LEDs produce better color and have much better blacks than do traditional florescent backlit panels. Still, if none of that means anything to you, LED are also significantly more efficient, giving you a big boost in battery life.

One more thing, I consider this website a learning environment and look forward to coming here specifically to learn but also to exchange ideas. As I learn something new in one category, I'd like to think I can also offer some of what I know from another. As long as we do that, we can all come away as better more informed consumers.

 

no OFC not LED isnt a gimmick, but im saying that those low-cost monitors which claim LED backlit arent taht much superior to a good CCFL screen of the same price. the edge dimming isnt as good as local dimming, as are white vs RGB. but yes, LED in higher end models will be subsantially better. but you can see, my G51 "LED" edge-lit is as bright as my VH236H CCFL monitor, to show u that LED on cheap displays isnt going to directly mean GG display. and yes the power efficiency is really nice thing, especially with samsung screens vs their plasma (i know i own one, they suck power like crazy).

 

I just bought this monitor today and it is a beauty. I first became interested in it when I was looking to buy a nice small display for my PS3 in my room. I read so many reviews and articles and claims of people for so many hd lcds over the last couple of months.

My number one concern in whatever I was going to get was response time and input lag. I found most cheap lcd tvs (not monitors) have pretty unappealing amounts of input lag. I found tn panel monitors are pretty good in those areas. I found the xl2370 first on cnet and the review was really positive in every way. I realllllly didn't care what the monitor was gonna look like as far as design, just performance.

I had already looked at so many other models and was trying to decide between this, the Dell s2409w (which had a really appealing price of $200, good game performance, and I really didn't care about the audio problems it had because it and the PS3 both have audio out), and the Asus vh236h which was used at the EVO Tournament for SFIV and has a good rep for it's low input lag on even 720p when it's native is 1080p. I planned on pretty much only using this monitor for PS3 games, mainly fps like COD MW2 when it comes out, and Killzone etc. The other two monitors I mentioned above have really good reviews posted from people who actually own them and there were input lag tests done and posted.

There were no such personal postings for the xl2370 as it didn't come out until the 12th. I trust cnet for it's reviews on the monitors as far as quality of picture go but they pretty much give every monitor an "ok" for ghosting and input lag. They pretty much claim to not notice on most of the monitor reviews I have read but they don't post any test results etc and I wanted the facts when it came to these specs. I found on www.digitalversus.com they did a review on the xl2370 and it had extremely positve things to say about both its next to nothing ghosting and an average of less than one frame of input lag. These both got me really excited and most of their other reviews of other "gaming worthy" monitors were pretty critical in the monitor "responsiveness" section. They even show on a chart the amount of both colored and reverse ghosting for almost every monitor they review. I really got hyped up about this monitor and knew I would have the money to get it by today. I found that review in september I beleive. I kept up with articles etc though and tried to make sure it was the right choice before I bought it.

Just the other day I found the posts in this thread and was eagerly awaiting the input lag test results by Koshinn. I was blown away by his findings. The numbers he posted seemed incredibly high. Especially in regards to the findings of digitalversus. 10 frames (160ms) is so much freakin input lag you could run to the other person's house while playing them online and personally slap them in the face and return before you pulled off your hadoken! That is a lot of input lag. and the PS3 input lag test wasn't much better, 6 frames (96ms). Those are really high numbers for a tn panel, especially a new one. I just had a really hard time believing it. How could digitalversus's test be so different?

I don't know but I didn't want to believe it because I thought I found the perfect monitor until I read that. I decided I would find out about best buy's return policy and was told (there by the cashier) they have a 30day "even if you don't like it" return policy on the monitors. I figured I'd take it home and try it for myself and if I didn't like it I would return it.

Now I don't have a decent camera so I have no way of doing my own groundbreaking nitty grity test but I was really amazed by this monitor. I play a lot of games and am pretty sensitive to ghosting and blur. I found none on Killzone, Resistance 2, Soul calibur IV, MGS4, Marvel vs. Capcom 2. I also found none of Fallout 3 but that game isn't too fast paced at any time. I couldn't see what it looked like on COD4 because I recently traded mine in for $17 in store credit towards COD MW2 when it comes out. I also traded in my SFIV when I found out SSF IV was on the way. All of the games looked absolutely amazing even at 720p. mgs4 was actually at 1080p. But it was all so crisp, clear and smooth. I could really see the details in the dark blacks next to even darker blacks. There are no dead or funky pixels and absolutely no backlight bleeding that i can see. There isn't any area with a general off brightness or color in darks or brights. It really displays the games gorgeously.

I have played on many hdtvs and this is by far the most crisp picture I have seen while gaming. I couldn't tell any input lag (NONE) at all but I know you may not be able to notice with your eye/hands. It seems really responsive to me. I believe that at 10 frames you would be able to notice or maybe even 6 frames. 100ms is a 10th of a second and I am not sure but as many fps as I have played, on as many displays as I have both crt and lcds and as competitive as I am I can't tell any lag at all. The lag may be there but it def doesn't feel like it has messed with my performance at all. I know marvel vs. capcom 2 is a barebones game but i didn't have any problems with the execution of any combos and none of the timing felt off from when I play on my crt (which I have kept around mainly for that input lag edge over lcds) Playing it on the xl2370 seemed more responive than my samsung LNA650 which has and average of 30ms input lag (less than 2 frames) on gaming mode.

I am curious as to the specifics of your test Koshinn. Also what options do you have on in the OSD? Please post the program you used and how you set it up and how many pictures you took.

 

Counting lag by ms doesn't quite work because monitors only output at 60hz.

I have a camera that records video at 60 fps. I set it up so I could see my controller's attack button and the screen. I hit the attack button so fast that my finger in one frame is above the button and in the next it's fully pressed on the button (again at 60 fps recording speed). I then count frames until the attack hits, then use known frame data to compare. The difference is the frame lag. I repeat this about 10 times with different attacks to ensure an accurate result. Outputting through HDMI is 6 frames of input lag, I just tested again about 5 minutes ago on a variety of settings and it came out the same. I set "response time" to fastest in one test and "normal" in the other, nothing changed. I set magicbright from standard to dynamic, and nothing changed.

Humans have trouble reacting to something at 10 frames. Humans in general can't react to 6 frames. It takes someone VERY skilled at the game to notice lag of 6 frames or less. I'll be honest - I only notice frame lag without camera testing by realizing I'm failing my links or justframe moves in SF IV or SC IV.

I can't explain http://www.digitalversus.com/article-357-6587-36.html and their results, except that it's possible, although statistically unlikely, that out of the 10 frames captured, only 1 was accurate and the other 9 were flukes.

 

Benners2009

Thank you. You've kept me up all night figuring out the answer to this problem.

My assumption was that SFIV frame data is correct. That assumption was wrong.

Here's my results from tonight's long testing:
Street Fighter IV -> PS3 -> HDMI -> XL2370: 6 frames
Street Fighter IV -> PC -> DVI-A/VGA -> XL2370: 10 frames
Street Fighter IV -> PC -> DVI-D -> LG Flatron W2361V (LCD): 6 frames
Street Fighter IV -> PC -> Alienware M17x 1920x1200 LCD: 6 frames
Street Fighter IV -> PS3 -> composite -> Standard definition CRT TV: 6 frames
Soul Calibur 4 -> PS3 -> composite -> Standard definition CRT TV: 3 frames
Street Fighter 2 Anniversary -> PS2 -> composite -> Standard definition CRT TV: 1 frame (I think it's known that anniversary lags 1 frame from the game, so this proves the CRT doesn't lag)

Thus it appears that the XL2370 has zero frames of input lag via HDMI (and assuming DVI-D) and 4 frames of input lag via DVI-A.

However, it seems no one has figured out that SF IV has an inherent 3-6 frames of lag yet, which completely threw me off.

I did one final test on my PC via DVI-A and the XL2370 and it lagged exactly 4 frames, which I expected because I'm using an analog input rather than digital.

 

hmm...now i see how lag frames will count. i still am thinking this is a good monitor, maybe not worth 300usd. lets wait and see, if it drops down to sub-250, i mite buy it. by then, there should be more reviews out. btw, for this lag, you do mention numbers, but in real-life, playing a game, for most monitors you wont be able to percieve it rite?

 

Thank you very much Koshinn for doing so much testing. I really appreciate anyone who would take the time to do that and then post it online for others to view.

I have really been excited about this monitor. Everything looks great. The only complaint I have is that you can't save your custom OSD settings after setting it to what you want and then switch to something else and come back. Because what looks great for games on the PS3 doesn't look the best for my computer. I can make both look terrific but then I have to change it again when I flip over to HDMI. Magic Color makes things look better but I am not sure if turning something like that on involves more processing creating further delay.

I'm not sure if it makes a difference in lag but there is a PC/AV mode on the OSD and I have it in PC Mode for the PS3. I have been able to see details on games that I never noticed on other HDTVs.

Thanks again Koshinn, I am sure that took quite a while and you helped me feel more confident in my purchase.

 

@Benners2009

Have you expericed the same blurry quality when connecting your pc via HDMI like Koshinn?

 

He wouldn't, it's my computer creating the blurriness, not the monitor.

PS3 -> HDMI -> XL2370 is crystal clear.

I'm running a Dellienware M17x with Windows 7 x64... it has problems outputting HDMI apparently.

 

have you tried it on another "pc" besides your M17x. Yes I know the ps3 clearly shows it works, I just want to make sure the M17x can be called an isolated case for pc's and not consoles (yes the ps3 is essentially a computer).

$300 is a lotta money right now, gotta make the best decision. but thanks again for all your input so far.

 

Once the signal hits the HDMI cable, it's all the same to the monitor. But I haven't tried on other monitors yet, nor other pcs on my monitor.

 

well try on another pc if it isn't too much trouble, if not, thanks again

 

My computer doesn't have a HDMI port so I wouldn't be able to tell you but I don't see any reason why it would be different if the computer in question plays fine through HDMI on other monitors since it works fine with the PS3.

 

made this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmfL2DRzOM4

 

nice video

 

I just got HDMI working by using the nvidia control panel.

That took a ridiculously long time.

 

Nice, I am glad you got that fixed. Earlier today I read one of your customer reviews on cnet I think. Donno if you want to update that one or not as people may think it has a lot of lag. I just got through playing some Resistance 2 online and it's almost like a new game with this monitor. I haven't noticed any of the subtle blue dominance at the bottom that someone else mentioned in another forum although I did notice a very slight bit of backlight bleed at the bottom left and right edges but even when the screen is completely black I can't tell unless my room is pitch black as well. It's nothing I could tell with the lights on or even in the dark if I wasn't overly particular. It is extremely subtle, so much so that it might actually be all in my head. I am really so happy with this thing. Everyone that sees it makes awe noises. My parents have a 23 inch hannspree that is 1080p but games look "not so much" on it, esp in action scenes. I am really glad I got this over any of the other monitors I was thinking about getting. I just hope Call of Duty looks good on it as I won't know for a bit.

 

Is there anything in particular you did in the nvidia control panel?

 

I had to use the "custom resolution" option, I'm not actually at home right now so I can't give you the exact steps, but Windows 7's built-in screen rez didn't work, neither did the nvidia control panel's standard screen rez. I had to set up a "custom" screen resolution at 1920x1080 without any other special options/features and it worked.

 

I think i know what you are talking about..maybe. When i hooked up my m17x to my brother's big tv (via HDMI), I have to manually adjust in NCC the resolution to fit the screen (1920x1200 vs 1920x1080). But there was no issue regarding picture quality, it was just oversized I couldn't see all of the desktop.

 

Yeah srry Koshinn I just noticed you had already updated your user review Wednesday. Lack of sleep... heh

 

yeah in the nvidia control panel:
display -> change resolution didn't work. it would still output as a weird resolution and when i tried to make it fit, it was blurry.

then i tried display -> manage custom resolutions and created a 1920x1080 and it works perfectly now, no blurriness or anything.

 

Koshinn I appreciate your work with the SF tests. Do you think you could take some pictures of a time stamp input lag test?

 

Hi Guys,

I just got this monitor at BB.

I'm a little confused about the response time option. It has normal, fast, and fastest. Are there any drawbacks if I use fastest all the time? Does it shorten the life span of the monitor or use more energy etc..?

thx

 

lol shorten the lifespan? no

increase power consumption? iuno, im interested in that response as well, any cons to fastest?

btw kamui, how is the monitor overall? u pleased with it?

 

I have done tests and have not noticed any difference... just leave it on normal.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmfL2DRzOM4

this method is better than the dual output crt vs lcd test

 

I like this monitor a lot, it is easy on my dry eyes because it produces so little heat when compared to regular lcd monitors.

 

Sorry for resurrecting this old thread but i found this from a google search after searching for w2361v input lag.

From what i understand base from your tests both the xl2370 and the w2361v have zero input lag, right?

Did you also test the HDMI port of w2361v because i want to connect my PC to dvi-d port and my PS3 to HDMI. Does it have the same input lag as the dvi-d port?

 

dvi-d and hdmi should be the same, but I don't remember.

 

Thanks for replying in this old thread.

I guess i would buy it then since it's so cheap

And i must do it quick since my current monitor i use for PS3 is horrible