Acer Predator (Vega 56+Ryzen 2) Helios 500

Once again, this GPU is BGA not MXM. Look up the data sheet for the power FETs on the GPU’s VRM section to find out what’s a safe current/power draw.

 

Don't really get this argument as the MXM GPU is also a BGA... The VRM design, cooling, and power budget/hardware limits is what will decide maximum power.
(Again if someone seen the schematics available somewhere please post here!)

 

With MXM you also have to consider the motherboard’s power FETs for the slot, not just on the GPU board.

 

Ah, that's true! Forgot about that.
I'll look at the Intel version schematics, assuming they have a similar power design that could at least hint if they included some headroom.

 

I'm not sure why you can't understand what I wrote, perhaps I was ambiguous or maybe English isn't your first language (no offence intended) but I will try and be clearer in my explanation. BGA and MXM are not exclusive terms, the Vega 56 Mobile is an MXM design, Acer opted to make the MXM module part of the laptops motherboard design instead of putting a slot on the motherboard and using a separate MXM card, however the module design still conforms to all the norms of the MXM standard (because they didn't really change anything aside from integrating the module into the board). The chip being attached to the board via BGA doesn't alter the type of design used for the module (or card in the case of desktop variants, which use BGA too).

 

BGA stands for ball grid array so unless the GPU in question is mounted on a socket or a pci board, its a BGA because a BGA is simply and always integrated into a system board in this case motherboard and on ball grid array.

Its kind of like claiming PGA and LGA are also BGA because the socket itself is mounted similar style to BGA onto the system board.

Its a silly argument because the Vega in that Acer is soldered BGA onto the system board.

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This is too funny.

 

I seriously don't understand what you all are arguing about. The Vega 56 is a BGA device soldered directly on the mainboard, an MXM board have a BGA GPU soldered on a (semi) standardized expansion board. A PGA device doesn't in itself imply that it isn't soldered, it just say that the package uses pins instead of balls for the interconnect.

Is the Vega 56 in the Helios 500 an MXM design implemented onto the mainboard? I don't know, haven't looked at the firmware to see if it implements the relevant calls - but WHY would they do that when they could simply take a normal Vega 56 design and tweak it to consume less power?!? It just makes no sense.

 

Plus, you would imagine that OEM's would have designed an MXM version of Vega56 and shipped it other laptops... but, with AMD's lower penetration into the mobile space (low adoption from OEM's), even if an MXM Vega 56 does exist, it might not be used.

They COULD use the soldered vega 56 in Helios 500 as a template for future MXM gpu's... but I don't know whether this will happen.
Many laptops have less and less MXM GPU's or for that matter removable CPU's.
In Europe, a new law was passed for 'right to repair' in regards to appliances... not sure how this would reflect on Laptops... but you would imagine if you wanted to have an easier time to repair one, it would be simpler to just remove a faulty component and replace it with an operational one (if its a HW problem).
However, for this to be viable, prices of laptop motherboards would need to go down. A new motherboard for a laptop currently costs almost as much as a new laptop (which is unrealistic and obviously financially non-viable).
For those of us who have relatively powerful laptops, we would like to continue using them for a while as opposed to constantly buy new ones if something breaks down.

Similarly, all mobos (desktop and laptop alike) need to have contingencies for BIOS upgrades (which are becoming crucial in this day and age) so as to avoid corrupted bios problems (which shouldn't really occur today in the first place).

 

Has anyone tried new adrenaline drivers?

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It would be nice if acer... would chime in on issues on their forums. Doesn't inspire confidence in doing business with them, even if the machine is great.

 

This is a problem with any OEM.
They will give you vague references or replies to anything... even if they DO design a powerful machine.
Which is just a waste.
What's the point of having a powerful machine if support for it dies roughly 6 months after release?
New software and hw keeps coming out, and OEM's have to understand that people cannot shell out £1500/$1500 every year for a new laptop/computer (very few people - if anyone - actually does this).

To me, it says that OEM's are mostly lazy and neglectful cheapskates. They are happy to take your money initially, but won't care one way or another if you experience issues or down the line a problem crops up which could be fixed with a BIOS update... only to discover they don't intend on releasing such updates, and if they do, well, you better have a contingency plan in case the BIOS install fails for whatever reason (which was known to happen even if you do everything right) since the OEM's are too lazy to spend any extra resources (which are minimal to say the least) to have a secondary backup BIOS and reliable recovery for consumers in place because, lets face it... many crucial security, performance and compatibility upgrades will have to be done via BIOS microcode upgrades (which we see is being done today - for both AMD Ryzen and Intel hw)... and if the OEM's provide years long support for their desktop mobos free of charge along with microcode upgrades which allow installation of newer generation of CPU's (provided the chipset supports it - which is the case for AM4, but less so for Intel)... what's the problem in doing the same for laptops?

I'm surprised more people aren't outraged by the state of affairs of how OEM's treat their laptops (and their consumers).

 

There is a reason I'm still using my ranger.

Even the state of applications or at least the ones I use seem disparaging.

 

Sort of, I've been using desktop replacement notebooks for nearly 20 years now (since the Inspiron 9100 created the market segment) and used dozens of manufacturers, generally the top tier manufacturers offer better support than the lower tier manufacturers (but lower value to boot), but yeah upgradability of laptops has never been a strong point for anyone. Even with slot in GPUs they normally use firmware locks to limit what you can install, and nobody really adds support for additional CPUs, hell even when Intel do their tick/tock updates manufacturers never added BIOS support to laptops for the CPUs that kept the socket (I.E Ivy Bridge).

Playing devils advocate here, but did Acer advertise upgradability as a selling point of the laptop? No they did not and so anyone who expected to be able to swap out the CPU is more a victim of their own abnormally high expectations than Acer's broken promises. Don't get me wrong I would love for us to be able to install newer CPUs, but this is not something that was ever promised/expected, it's not something you can normally do on a laptop (even in the £2000 range) and laptops that do promise that feature usually charge heavily for it.

It's obvious that you're still annoyed about your failed BIOS flash issues (and who can blame you), but you have to understand that you fell victim to a one in a million issue. There's always a chance that a BIOS flash can go bad, hell even if you're hooked up to a UPS and running ECC RAM it's a possibility, this is why unlike drivers it's only recommended to update a BIOS if you need too (not saying you didn't just making the point), it's never guaranteed to be issue free. But it is also a one in a million issue, I've flashed over 1000 laptops in the last year and *touches wood* not lost any, this is why hardly any motherboards/graphics cards and practically no laptops use dual BIOS, because for the added cost to saving ratio (cos of adding it to every board vs replacing a failed board) it isn't worth it for the manufacturer or the consumer.

Yes, that was the info I stated above that drew the angst from the guy who didn't seem to understand MXM/BGA not being exclusive terms.

Using them ATM, no issues to report (that weren't already present lol).

 

yeah, seems to be business as usual.

I was aslo under the impression that upgrade ability was part of how they marketed this laptop. If not, a lot of the early reviewers were touting upgrading to future processors being a strong selling point.

 

So given that OEM's tend to abandon their HW almost immediately after initial sales. do you guys think Clevo laptops are a better option for getting a desktop replacement cpu?

 

Upgrading is nice if it works but the problem is its expensive, VERY time consuming and problematic to upgrade laptops that do support it, I had laptops for 17 years and at no point until 2012 could I afford one that allowed upgrades.
I also almost never found myself making good use of such heavy gaming laptops for gaming on the move.
In my opinion if you absolutely need to take your 5 - 6kg gaming laptop with you just to play games then perhaps one should reevaluate life choices.
And having no space for a desktop is nonsense, desktops can be built so damn tiny.
The only legit use for a gaming laptop is if you travel a lot because gaming laptops are neither cheap or sensible long term.

That AMD Acer is nice but upgrading CPUs over several generation has almost NEVER been possible on laptops except a few Clevos with custom BIOS.

In fact if you want upgradable laptops then Clevo is the only way to go but even that is no guarantee and laptop MXM cards are extremely expensive when 1070 came out on MXM you could buy 1080 Ti for same price...
Is that sensible? No.

I do not understand this talk about Acer supporting second gen Ryzen on their laptop, this is Acer we are talking about, they make hundreds of laptop variants a year, its not like Clevo who make a few dozen, Acer had always been quantity over quality.
Upgradability on Acer has always been shoddy even on their old MXM laptops.
Want Upgradability? Buy a desktop, sorry but that is reality of owning laptops, BGA, PGA, LGA, MXM makes no difference but ease of repair.

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I honestly use gaming laptops as mobile workstations for multimedia creation.

I own several desktops that I built personally for my studios, but I am traveling a lot, doing a lot of work outside of a static work environment and would prefer to invest 'mobile setup' that can perfom on par with my desktops.

I would hate if I purchased an AMD Helios 500, just to find out they are releasing a new version in 2 months.... especially if they wont support an upgrade for at least 1 generation of new AMD cpu's.

 

Those are legit reasons, if you travel and need power, gaming or workstation laptops are the only way but I hate to put it this way, its a common practise by Notebook manufacturers to never really offer any form of upgradability and instead profit from releasing newer models forcing people to buy them, makes sense business wise ethically its just poor taste, not even Clevo "officially" have any form of upgrade program for their laptops, all those upgrades are done by third parties and aftermarket offerings like Eurocom.
MSI and Dell/Alienware also had some form of upgrading paths for their laptops but those were only one upgrade offering, specially with Alienware you only got to get one newer gen GPU but that was it and you had to pay blood money for those upgrades.

It is in my humble opinion that today it makes a lot more sense to buy some BGA laptop, use an external GPU for extra power and actually there are a lot of good offerings these days with pretty powerful GPU's, 1660Ti, 2060 etc and some even have Rx 580 and those are good GPU's even today its by no means bad.

But in my humble opinion, only Clevo have good upgradable laptops and its only because of the community behind it who made it all possible specially thanks to all those who made custom BIOS/UEFI for them allowing them to support all sorts of GPU's and CPU's, remember the Clevo P1x0 does not support 10xx gen GTX without unlocked BIOS.

 

Meh, even top tier manufacturers have a tendency to abandon support for their laptops relatively fast.
It only further fuels the problem of laptops being neglected by OEM's.
This shouldn't be tolerated by consumers.

To clarify... I did NOT buy the Helios 500 solely on the ground of it being upgradeable, however, the laptop costs £1700/$1700, and is classified as a gaming/productivity machine.
To be honest, lack of ability to upgrade replaceable components (such as the CPU) is ridiculous for that kind of machine, especially because AMD continuously provides new BIOS updates that include microcode updates, security, efficiency and performance updates, and Acer used a socketed/removable desktop grade CPU. If they had no intention of including support for Zen 2 and Zen 3, they should have soldered the thing to the mobo like they did with the GPU.

Furthermore, RAM upgrades would be needed to eek out maximum performance from the Ryzen+ CPU, and Acer messed up things on that front by putting 2400mhz RAM inside (they should have included 2400 or 3000 MhZ RAM with low timings) and on top of that placed it beneat the keyboard, which makes it impossible to upgrade the RAM without full disassembly (and that can be precarious for many people along with too much effort).

Also, Acer themselves released several BIOS updates for Helios 500 that tout hw compatibility for Windows 10 and proper display performance.

You cannot expect of people to NOT upgrade their software (such as Windows) which relies on new updates to seal security breaches, improve performance, etc. and then tell them 'upgrade the BIOS at your own risk' (which you need to ensure compatibility with latest software).
Why offload responsibility of BIOS updates to the consumer when its the manufacturer that made them in the first place and is their job to ensure they work?

I am still annoyed about my failed BIOS because I have work to do and I cannot do ANYTHING because its taking a ridiculous amount of time to ship the new mobo to UK so the repair crew can replace it (as opposed to me having the ability to recover the BIOS myself on an existing mobo within 10 minutes - so basically, they turned what should be a 5-10 min job into a month long haul that's costing me precious time and projects).

Also, I don't agree that integrating dual BIOS or a suitable/working contingency to restore previous working BIOS adds too much of a cost/time... its a minor feature that should have been integrated a LONG time ago.
Heck, if Windows OS can be repaired or restored to earlier functional version, why not the same with the BIOS?

I don't care if its a one in a million issue. The fact you can still end up with a corrupt BIOS despite doing everything 'right' and with no way of repairing the damage in 2019 is nothing short of absurd (and the issue affects a lot of people to this day).

BIOS upgrades are becoming necessary today due to security and compatibility of hw to ensure it works as intended with latest software.
If AMD is providing frequent BIOS updates, and OEM's include them for free for their desktop mobos, then quite frankly, I don't see the problem of doing the same for laptops (especially on high end gaming machines).

Premium or not, OEM's shouldn't abandon their product support. They should support it for AT LEAST how long the warranty lasts (typically 2 years).

 

My HP 8770w received it latest bios update in May. That marks about 7(!) years of really solid support. I really want a new workstation laptop but no one has delivered a well-supported (Asus / Acer Ryzen systems) solution in that doesn't cost a small fortune (take your pick of i7/i9/Xeon DTR notebooks).

Acer came close with the Helios 500, it checked all the right boxes with the exceptions of support and an MXM GPU. I'm hoping Acer steps up its game and brings an update to market soon - either that or another OEM takes the mantle and delivers a desktop replacement AMD system.

 

How about Clevo? They have 6 core and 8 core offerings with RTX 2060 or 2070 for pretty reasonable pricing.
Sure the build quality is not as premium but those machines have the support of the Clevo community which has to be the best laptop community imao hands down and not to mention custom BIOS.
Really annoyed with AMD lack of dedication for high performance laptops myself but there nothing to do about it, they recently stopped selling the Helios 500 in my country too.

Fact is it you want high end notebooks then Shintel and nGreedia are the only realistic options. The Quadro RTX pricing gives me cancer though.

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7 years of support is really solid.
See, THAT's what laptop manufacturers (all of them) should be doing.

Acer can still 'step up' by delivering a BIOS microcode update for Zen 2 and next year for Zen 3.
The latest AGESA microcode update has a large number of modifications (to say the least) and that's just for Zen 2.
I don't mind the lack of MXM GPU... because quite frankly, any potential upgrade in GPU would probably cost quite a bit given how absurd prices of mobile components are... plus, by the time Vega 56 becomes slow, you'll probably want to buy a new system altogether (Which would likely happen in about 4 years... maybe 5).

In the meantime, it would be nice if Acer included Zen 2 and Zen 3 support (along with support for faster RAM).
Depending on one's preference, if Acer included microcode upgrades for Zen 2 and 3, I'd probably upgrade the Helios with a 65W TDP Zen 3 CPU and far faster RAM.

 

Subtract security updates and that is likely to be far less

 

You would only see good support like that on business models. Sadly consumer models support is an afterthought. Then again it mostly doesn't matter because whatever model available two years from now will be 50% faster so it makes more sense to buy cheap and upgrade more often.

 

Acer could have done well treating this as a mobile workstation, remove the gamer aesthetics and add a magnesium inner chassis and voilá: a true desktop replacement. Keyboard is fine, screen is fine, GPU power is more than fine (many mobile workstations have low performance GPU) and with some extra ca$h to AMD could have the Radeon Pro label, processor power is very high and could be even higher with Zen 2/Zen 3 support. I guess ECC support wouldn't be there but then most mobile workstations do without it.

 

Ryzen supports ECC as long as the motherboard is certified for it, and if Acer made it a workstation they most likely would have certified it for ECC

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They have released frequent bios updates, just not with zen 2 support, which they never advertised. You can still upgrade the cpu to a 2700x if you absolutely need more power, so even if they had advertised that as a feature (which I don't think they did), it's not incorrect. I would love for them to release an update to support zen2 it but I think expecting it is over the top.

Your bios issues are not common, and it sounds like there's an issue on the repair by your retailer. I've had mine for a year so far and updated the bios 3 times in that span without issue. It still runs excellently and I don't feel like I got ripped off at all. It's still one of the fastest laptops available, especially cpu wise. If you unlock the gpu and fully OC the system, it will compete with laptops that cost 2x as much. If you feel like you got ripped off, it's more your fault than the system tbh.

 

This is incorrect, mxm are removable graphics cards by definition (mobile pci express module), the v56 in the helios 500 is not removable, therefore cannot be an mxm. There is no such thing as an mxm graphics card integrated into the motherboard, that's just an integrated dgpu.

 

Please can't we drop the MXM discussion? It isn't relevant anyway...
Unrelated fun fact: the irritating startup sound takes almost 1MB of the 16MB ROM.

 

On that note, sometimes my computer post and shows that predator logo but dont boot to windows. I had to press ctr alt delete to restart and loads normally to windows. This usually happens when doing a cold boot on the unit. Its weird, Just a little inconvenience.

 

I don't feel I got ripped off.
I find the machine more than powerful enough... but having the ability to upgrade the CPU down the line and enhance its performance further (along with having new/improved security updates) would have been nice.

The issue I'm most uncomfortable with is the length it takes to 'repair' the problem - and for my BIOS issue not being common, I disagree. If people continuously need to express how 'dangerous' it can be upgrade the BIOS, then obviously it DOES present a problem.
I am not happy in the slightest that my BIOS ended up corrupted just because I tried updating the stupid thing... and it shouldn't have happened in the first place.

 

I kind of have a hunch that the motherboard may have been back ordered. It sold out in the US last month but supposedly a new run of them is being made which will ship next week. If that is the case then you should have a new motherboard out of that batch for sure.

I also kind of have the feeling the older motherboard revision could have had a flakier BIOS / EC chip. The newer revision 4 they shipped me in August (from the US service center) hasn't had any problems compared to the other motherboard mine used to have from late 2018.

 

They still produce the laptop??
Damn I wish they sold it in Norway.

 

And you think I may get a motherboard which was made at a later date? Maybe one with a better BIOS/EC chip?

The issue with the whole thing taking so long seems to be down to the fact that they had no spare motherboards in stock for this model (which is downright odd - you'd think Acer would have a facility in UK for storing parts for laptops).
Once its ordered, it would take 2 days (max) to get from there to the repair center and have the repairs underway (which would reasonably take another day or so).
So, all in all, we're looking at a week's worth of repair time.


On a side note, I DID leave a request for the repair team to try and upgrade the BIOS to the latest version if they can.

 

Guys... I'm still without my laptop.
Its been 28 days now and the status of the laptop is that its STILL waiting for the motherboard replacement.

I called them 4 times now to inquire about it and I always got the same answer... the needed replacement item is not in stock and they had to ask for a replacement.
The last time I called in I was told that they will try chasing it up and just confirmed that the needed item still needs to arrive.

This is beginning to affect my college course and I cannot wait anymore (something which I pointed out to them).
I think I will go down to PCWorld tomorrow and I will tell them that they are OVERDUE with the laptop and well past the 'up to 28 days' note (even though originally I was told 7 days and it wasn't even mentioned it could be 28 days - they changed that to later).

I think I am entitled to a full refund or an identical replacement laptop (though I checked their website and its listed as 'unavailable').

This is sickening.

 

A month is not acceptable by any means.

Its why even though I hate Dell most of the time, the parts are plenty compared to Asus and Acer.

 

Yup, now's the time to start asking for a replacement - MSRP to MSRP same value, whether it's AMD or Intel - if it's affecting school then get whatever you can.

You could also add you'd at the minimum appreciate a loaner laptop so you can do your school work without delay.

 

That sucks, but its honestly something I would expect from Acer, in the past I had a Phenom laptop which they replaced the motherboard 3 times on and the 4th time I got a refund, my sisters Acer with an Intel failed twice.
My brother also had an Acer that also died LOL.
Mind you these are not cheap machines at all, my Phenom machine was pretty expensive for its time.
No good seeing their repair services not improved at all.

Better just get some replacement if I were you, they might try to delay it long enough until you loose the right for replacement or repair, be careful with that, they are pretty slimy when it boils down to expensive repairs or a possible replacement.

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People have waited over a month for parts for their Area-51m

 

The laptop is 6 months old. It's well within the warranty. They can't possibly expect to hold the laptop for 6 months or even a year and a half to get out of repairing it.

Its absurd because a 5 to 10 min job to reprogram the bios to a functional status was turned into an over a month long wait which requires a motherboard replacement.

Utterly unnecessary and time wasting

 

What's worse, none of the laptops on the market in the same price range are in the same caliber as the helios 500 with 2700 and vega 56.
They either have weak cpus or weak GPUs... With highly mismatched ram etc.
And you need to pay a hefty premium for a better laptop (which in my opinion is not worth the money).

Amazon uk offers helios 500 with ryzen and vega 56 but for £2000. The only difference from mine was that the Amazon one ships with 512gb ssd (mine had 256gb).

How can they get away charging £300-£500 difference for a doubling in ssd storage?
Its absurd.
An m.2 ssd with 500gb costs well under £100.

The UK is a cesspool of garbage apparently when it come to laptops. Garbage/unreliable repairs which take too long, they offer 0 replacement laptops to tie you over while you wait and will scheme as much as possible to get away with a doing a bad job (meanwhile the hiring managers expect of new recruits something completely opposite, and make hiring people next to impossible, but this isn't reflected in practice when you have to deal with their services)

 

Frankly I would not put it under me for them to do it.
Have you considered reflashing the UEFI with a programmer?
Just in case the wait will take two months.

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I should've said aftermarket


As Dell is terrible too. Had to wait 3 months for m.2 heatsinks from them.

 

Reflashing the uefi with a programmer did cross my mind but seems very complex in execution.

Plus I don't have the laptop with me.

Anyway I was at PC WORLD today and spoke with one of the TeamKnowhow guys and the results were the same.
The guy tried to call the repair centre even but they didn't pick up until later in the day.

He also said they cannot give me a replacement or a refund (as he's not in a position to do that).

I asked him (nicely) to escalate this matter with the management and since they sell Acer technology they must have an agreement with them and that as such they should be able to get ahold of Acer and ask them what's happening with the replacement part/motherboard. Was it ordered, and if yes why is there a hold up, did they even send it off (because I find it incredulous that it takes 4 weeks for the part to arrive).

I told him I need something to be done along those lines this week, otherwise I may have to resort to legal action as I'm protected under EU consumer rights act of 2015 but would prefer to try and resolve the situation with pc world directly

 

That is ridiculous, not to mention having to wait a month is terrible PR for any company. I would harass Acer support directly and see if they can escalate to someone who isn’t incompetent.

IMO nothing as small as a motherboard should should take a month to ship unless your destination is in a 3rd world country. I can order parts from obscure Chinese companies using cheap/bulk shipping and receive that within 1-3 weeks on the US east coast. Acer has no excuse.

 

The problem is the AMD setup. If it was Intel I'm sure they could get it faster.

 

Nah, a boards a board, whether Asus has sold out of available stock or not - Intel vs AMD won't matter - Asus will still need to crank up production to generate a few more motherboards to fulfill ongoing support for a few years.

 

Of course they have more board in stock when the sale is more like 95:5 to Intel. Pure logic. The same is it with all other types products out there A niche product will always come last.

 

Niche products play a part, just like all top end Intel gaming laptops as many have found when trying to get them repaired and end up having to accept a refurbished component. Intel laptops have the same limited production and soon run out of component replacements, it's not limited to AMD.