[Conference Call] Nvidia GeForce GTX 580M 78C° Throttling [SEE POST #191 and later]

I'll check PM box and get emails out to you guys today. I like the 2 headed monster approach.
We'll do this one slightly differently than the last 2 calls. We'll want to start off with some defining of terms and ground rules (not so much rules as setting the stage). The thing is, Louis is very reasonable and will advocate on your behalf any reasonable request. We just have to frame "reasonable" up for you.

 

I hope you both can!

 

I live thirty-five minutes from Round Rock, Bill. So if there is some testing or investigating that needs done coming out of the conference call I may be a convenient guinea pig. I'm sure you have plenty of R3 machines sitting around to play with but if you need a customer to do something let me know.

 

Will do and thanks!

 

Hi guys sorry i've come to the party a little late but ill do my best to help.

Had a read through the thread and i'd like to say thanks to bill for taking our corner and helping, and to all the forum members that have been chipping away at this.

Bill if you need extra hot box testing i work in Trinidad so have a good environment for thermally pushing the machine if needed. Anyway guys ask and ill try my best.

Also guys are we gona get the SATA 3(6gbs) issue looked into, a simple it doesn't work so we are disabling it doesn't cut in my book

 

so I have a question. What does this all mean to me? if 78C is something that can't be worked out, am i gonna be able to get a replacement on my GPU to something that'll handle it? [Radeon maybe? idk] I'm trying to read through all the posts, but I can't find much of an answer. Or is this something that's still being figured out before the trigger is pulled on something like that? [i have a 4 year ADH service if it makes any difference] I'm just curious as to what is all going on. Or just be patient and keep checking this thread?

 

The 78 throttle can be 'work-around'-ed by either repasting and making sure by whatever means that your laptop stays cool below 78.
Another way is to use hwinfo to solve the throttle, there's a guide posted by yodagonemad, which based on an older advice by another forumer. This one solved the throttle for me.

From what I see, Dell is side stepping this issue. You can go ahead and complain to dell and investing your time and attention to replacing the gpu with an equivalent yet still throttle gpu or get the 6990. Or take the initiative to help dell-bill with whatever they're doing right now. I just took my 5 hour of research and use hwinfo to solve the throttle and be done with it once and for all.

 

Hopefully I will have my system on the 20th, as that is the EDD. If this has not made any movement before then, I would like to volunteer to assist in any capacity I am able to do testing, video conferencing, or anything else for that matter.

Dell needs to know that this is becoming more and more wide-spread and eventually going beyond just the enthusiast level. They can save money by using members here to assist in resolving this issue.

Let me know if there is anything I can do to be of assistance. I'm a Systems Administrator, A+ Certified, Got a list of OEM Certs ~5 pages long....will even send a resume if needed.

 

@widezu69 and @YodaGoneMad Just sent you a PM. I have been out at SXSW, but I'm free now. Email me back, and I'll get the three of us on the same email thread.

We know there is the sentiment out there that we're "side stepping the issue." I disagree. We may not change the thermal tables for GTX 580m throttling, but we are willing to discuss the issue head on. Feel free to join the call if you still have doubts. Yoda and/or widezu are your points of contact.

 

Dell-Bill_B I would like to thank you for all your efforts in dealing with this issue. However I couldn't resist to replay to your comment. I just don't understand the logic here. In one hand you are saying that we may not change the thermal tables and in the other you are saying that we are willing to discuss the issue head on. Please do correct me if I am wrong, but are you actually saying that dell are willing to discuss but not take any action as a result or am I understanding your comments wrong. Will something actually be done as a result of the phone conference? I am very much hopping that this issue gets somehow resolved.

Thanks.

 

Hi,
I found this thread searching for answers to the same problem (580m getting to hot… .

I’ve just had an engineer come out and fit a new heat sink, unfortunately not an improved and updated design, just the same as he took out, so all in effect has happened is the thermal paste/pad has been refreshed (the chap did mention the existing paste being rather dried out).

This did help a little bit, it’s taking longer to get hot and not getting as hot unless the back of the laptop is obstructed (i.e. close to a wall ~3 inches and it will heat up to the point of shutting down after an hour or so of gaming).

So are Dell using thermal paste/pads on these that dries out far too quickly/ not rated for the temps the cards work at?

Why haven’t the fan/cooling profiles been updated to run the fans for longer and faster to stop the gradual heating that happens (surly that is a no brainer there??). If it’s a noise thing why not add an option in the bios to select max cooling or best acoustic performance??

My view is the cooling on these notebooks (M17x R3) is inadequate and the root cause of this issue, who in their right mind would design a cooling system that daws in cool air right next to where it exhausts hot air AND daws it on in the place that is most likely to become completely obstructed (the bottom) and where there will be little space anyway (between laptop and desk surface) on what is supposed to be a high performance gaming system?

Good to see someone from Dell on here trying to look after the customers, I hope something positive comes out of your conference call, even if it’s just an improved fan profile (speed and duration) to stop the heating up over time.

Cheers

Matt

 

This is exactly what I have been wondering since I purchased my M11x. My old XPS M1710 would draw in cold air from the sides and vent it out the back. Never once had any heat related issues from it, even when I overclocked the 7950 GTX.

I would just like to know why the move to drawing in air from under the laptop, where it is already warm and why the design to draw it from an area where the lack of volume could be a normal issue.

All it takes is for the system to be set on a mildly soft surface and the vents become ineffectual at best. While I do not profess to know more about laptop cooling than the experts at Dell, it would definitely be a question I would love to ask their design team.

 

This does bug me about my 580m, especially considering I shelled out the cash to Dell to upgrade from my 460m.
I have the 580m specific cooler with the new back cover that has the extra vent and she still throttles.

But more than this, it REALLY bugs me that HDMI in is STILL not working on our 3d machines with any remotely recent driver (including verde 296.10).

I understand the need to send any changes or updates through Dells version of a quality assurance program, as well as the time it can take to do so.
But take advantage of the community here and start churning out some Betas for crying out loud... Please.

 

While this thread is not about HDMI-in, and instead the 580m throttle, I do agree it's ridiculous that a hardware feature that's built into the laptop does not work. This is more likely an NVIDIA problem, but Dell definitely could help push them to fix it.

Anyways, lets stay on the 580m topic

 

I did enquire with Nvidia support about the HDMI in (also annoyed this dosen't work and I have to mess about rolling back to an accient driver to use it...) and they are aware. The reply I had from them sounded like it may be fixed soon in the referance driver.

It is odd though why Dell's premium gaming notebooks do not have upto date drivers avalible via Dell....That work..... Along with all this messing about with the 580m's over heating...

Any news on this Conference Call and the info Bill wishes to pass along?


Cheeers

matt

 

Hello all I recently up-graded from the 460m to the 580m and have not yet experienced any throttling problems. When I ran FUMARK max temp's I reached was 64C watched very closely ambient temp is around 70F. I played mass Effect 3 and metro 2033 with no issues. Used new thermal pads and IC diamond that the vender sent with the new card . Just a thought maybe there is somthing different with the aftermarket 580M cards that is different from the stock cards.

 

You didn't throttle, because you didn't hit 78C. That's the problem we are talking about.

 

I realise that you guys are chasing a fix for the P8 deadlock throttle at 78C but i thought I would add my latest experiences, since Bill is (hopefully) taking a more holistic approach to the whole issue.
I just installed the 296.10 driver and thought I'd see if it was any better. well - it seemed to me that all the throttling (except the 78 one) are working well. I OC'd the P0 to 710, P1 is set to 620 by the bios fix, and P8 untouched. Also no fan profile mod. Game plays great and stays stable at around 72C. During cut scenes it drops to P1 after a few seconds and returns to P0 straight away when returning to the game. Pause the game and P8 (75mhz) cuts straight in - both drops cause a nice drop in temps. Only time it hit the wall was when I forgot to prop up the back and temps gradually rose up to the limit. Took some hours though since every cut scene drops the temp . Don't know how the nvidia driver is involved with the equation but this is very nice. Assassins creed on the other hand pops in and out of P1 at what seems random temps and load...
Forgot - game I was testing was Alan Wake.

 

I'm sorry to have been away for a while. SXSW has eaten a giant hole in my calendar, but the geeks have moved on. The musicians are in town now that the interactive portion is over.

I would say this: 78C is very likely not going anywhere. However, we can discuss doing something about the situation. Trust me, there are reasons I can't publicly put into ink concerning root cause, or I would. There is logic involved, but I can guarantee you that no one on this thread will agree with us, but we have to stick to our design specs. Some of these specs are carved in stone, and we have no way to over-ride them without incurring the wrath of certain factions. What we know for sure is a good thermal solution (paste+heat sink+shim), ambient temperature, and intake airflow rate can keep the GPU core (core is a big keyword in this discussion, and sorry to be cryptic) well below 78C.

More specifically, he didn't throttle because his thermal solution is better than what shipped from the factory.

Update on the con call:

I have a PM discussion going with widezu69 and YodaGoneMad. We are working through the details now. We are on target for next Thursday, 3/22, afternoon. I would have thought they'd post this already, but if you want to attend, contact them by PM to get the ball rolling. In the end, I'll just need names corresponding to screen names (don't need last names if there are privacy concerns), and email addresses so I can send the calendar invite with dial in details. I also will need to know what country you are in so I can get you the toll free international numbers where available.

 

Hi Bill, i'm a late poster on this thread, new m17x owner and experiancing the 580m heat issues I came across this looking for answers.

Personally I think 78degC is pleanty hot enough so no issues with Dell having things in place to stop the GPU exceding this. The bottom of my m17x gets far to hot, to the point it will get uncomftable to keep it on my leg (don't ask... if i'm sitting on the sofa with the family rather than at the desk...... keeps the bottom vents clear....) and I'm concerned about the long term durability of the card once the service runs out (Bill any comment on Dells possition on these failing out of service contract as I've seen on mine the original heatsink compound had dried up relativly quickly, in the UK by the was so I know not Dell USA's area but worth asking..).

My gripe here is that the cooling in the system is not very well though out for the 580m (not up to the job??) and the fans don't seem to ether run fast enough and for long enough (to keep the card cool with out the gradual heating up) or they need updating to somthing that moves more air. Pulling in air ON THE BOTTOM ONLY and next to the exhaust (so already heated air circulating, if not obstructed......).

Add that on to a £1.5 to 2k laptop, aimed at high end gaming = customer not getting what they have paid for = unhappy customer.

At that price I don't find putting a lump of wood under the back of my system an aceptable soloution.

Cheers,

Matt

 

Sorry I have been out of town this week, so I couldn't make this post earlier.

Anyway, as Bill said, we are planning to have the conference call about this issue on Thursday 3/22 in the afternoon. At the moment we are planning for me and Widezu to do most of the talking, but if anyone wants to listen in and potentially ask a really good question send me a PM with your real name and email. Please be prepared to spend most of the time listening. It should be an interesting call so if you have this issue or are interested in the details I encourage you to PM me so I can put you on the list to get an invite. If you get on the list and can't make it then that isn't a major deal, but if you don't get on the list you won't be able to join at the last minute.

I will wait a few days for people to see this and PM me before I send the list to Bill.

 

Considering Bill's statement, I think this bit is especially relevant: I received a call yesterday from Dell India about a new heatsink that they want to put into my M17xR3. I'll post the part number when I get it, early next week.

M17xR3 i7-2760QM 2.4GHz, 8GB DDR3, 1080p 120Hz 3D, 2GB GTX 580M, 750GB HDD

 

I'm glad it's being worked on, but if the 78 degree C throttle is not leaving, that basically tells me as a consumer to not buy NVIDIA laptops. The AMD 6990m doesn't have the ridiculously low throttle of 78C, and if Dell is bound to keep it at 78C, but only on NVIDIA 580m's, then they are essentially pushing me away from them. I love this laptop, but this situation has summed this up for me; Dell + NVIDIA = not a future purchase for me. Which is sad, because I enjoy Dell, and have always been partial to NVIDIA. Guess, I'll have to switch to the Dark Side (AMD).

 

Well said. I feel exactly the same. having been a corporate decision maker for the last 10 years I have been a faithful dell customer, despite group pressure to go for a cheaper option. With over 400 laptops scatted across N and S America their after sales service has been exceptional. My spend has been over $1M in that time. Oh well, my first foray into a consumer product and to use the vernacular. 'Epic fail!'

 

What has me concerned is the bolded text. I completely understand a corporation having to keep some things from the public. Design choices, specifications that could get leaked to a competitor, even when sometimes the secret being kept means a certain part can actually perform better than a perceived upgrade. A business has to make sure it protects its profits and this I get because I am getting my science degree in I.T. Management.

What I do not get is the choice to limit one of the main deciding factors in a system unless it was done because the current body will not allow better cooling. Since I am still waiting on Alienware to send me my M17xR3, can someone do me a favor and measure the distance between a verified flat surface and the bottom of the laptop? I need to find out how much airflow is allowed through during the various stages of fan activity.

The people who design the cases for our beloved systems are, in my opinion, damned amazing. I know it takes a real talent to pack as much into our laptops as they have and they have my utmost respect and admiration. I just have to know if the decision to make the fans on the bottom, pull air from the bottom, was the only option.

I realize that Dell-Bill will likely not be able to answer this, but since there is no docking station for the M17xR3 (unless I am mistaken) why the decision to pull from the bottom and not the side? You could almost double the amount of cold air pushed through the system if you pulled from the sides. Hell, move the vents to the side and down to the middle of the laptop and you will be able to pull even more cool air.

Sorry, got off on a tangent...anyway, I will definitely be on the call and I will be quiet unless asked a question directly. Though I think everyone who is on the call should meet up in a chat room so we can bounce ideas around and let Yoda and wideuz be the only ones who talk. this way, everyone can be a part of it without there being too many voices or risk cutting someone off.

 

I'll be at work, but I'll hopefully be able to listen in on the call. Wish we could get an NVIDIA rep in there as well. When you guys mention (which make sure you do) that "well, the AMD 6990m can take the heat, why can't the 580," I'd love to hear their reaction. We've amassed a small army here on NBR. We are pretty tech savvy, and the average Joe tends to take our advice on what products to buy...

 

Hi why in other Gaming notebook the GTX580m can exceed 78 ° without losing performance and framerate?

 

We will hopefully get answers, from some of Bills other posts this sounds like it might be some Compal imposed fail, but we might as well just wait and get the full story.

Also, don't be afraid to speak up, I know I am saying for everyone to mostly listen, but if you feel we haven't asked something, or you want to make a point, speak up. The idea is for the call to move along and be productive, but I don't want other members to feel like only me and Wide can speak, we won't think of every possible question so you guys are there to speak up and ask the ones we miss.

If you haven't PM'ed me yet be sure to do so, you have to get on the list for an invite to join, then if you can't make it that isn't a big deal, but if you aren't on the list you cannot join.

This is something I am going to bring up, even more interesting is why was the M18x throttle removed while it sounds like they are firm on the M17x throttle. I suspect Compal is behind the whole throttle issue, but as far as I know the M18x is a Compal design also, and the M18x got the throttle removed.

Rest assured this is the type of question we are going to try and get answered. If you want to listen feel free to send me a PM with your name and email.

 

I ask in MSI GT783 thread about GTX580M , but for the Clevo we know that there is not throttling.

 

This! Please keep me posted. PM me for email address if you prefer to use that instead of PM.

The Dell spec in question applies to all our laptops- every...single...one. One card doesn't exceed the spec in this platform, and one does (unlike the M18x platform). And the spec is not GPU core temp. The value of the GPU core temp is used to compute the spec in question.

NO!

 

Is anyone planning to record this conference call and make it available to those of use that can't join in on the day? I for one would like the hear what is said (first hand) but have work commitments that I can't change the preclude me from taking part.

Questions I would like to hear asked:

- Why the 78decC limit (I'm just curious why as other systems don't have this imposed with the same card)

- Why does such a hi spec, aimed at gaming, laptop have fans sucking in from the bottom and right next the the exhaust vents

- Is the cooling system not adequate for the GTX 580m or is it limited by the software i.e. bios not running the fans fast enough and long enough.

- Why is the temp of the card allowed to gradually increase over time until it becomes to hot.

My concerns are: The system cooling is just not up to the job with the 580m and thus their will be out of warranty issues down the road (just not acceptable on system costing over £1.5k). If the cooling is up to the job but has been limited (i.e. fans running faster & longer) why has this not been addressed and fixed already..... Lastly what is going to be done, if anything to fix this problem..

On a separate note, but related as it's another Dell/Alienware not pulling there finger out for premium system customers: HDMI in on the 17xR3 with the latest driver...(Dell's latest driver download is 6 months or so old!!!! again not acceptable on a premium gaming system) still not working... one to sneak in as it's a GFX issue pls ; o ) ??

Anyway, hoping for some answers and insight.


Cheers

Matt

 

Please do not record this call. Doing so will effectively kill off any future calls like this. Sorry to be Mr No Guy.

 

I have been having the same issue. m17x r3 580m abnormal throttling - Alienware Arena Forums

I have tried many things, including the vbios, the manual fan controls, new heat sink, new fan, various bio for different components, etc.

The funny thing is the modern warfare 2 on low settings causes the issue in like 5-10 minutes, and bf3 on ultra maxed out can go 30+ minutes, and I was playing fallout new vegas maxed out and never got the issue. So it cant be based around gpu load. I also ran checks on voltage, load, clocks, shaders, etc and nothing seems out of whack except the temperature.

I know this is being worked on, and everyone is having a different experience. I was just wondering if people could help me with another concern related to this.


How much does temperature fluctuate. I tend to get temps that look like choppy waters. I fluctuate a few degrees on idle (ive included an image). so I was wondering if this was normal or not. I never really looked at gpu temps in extreme detail on old rigs as I never had a problem with them, and now that I am having an issue here I am wondering if the idle temp fluctuations might be a sign or if they are just normal.

any contribution would be appreciated. Thank you.

p.s. the image shows normal idle temps, the playing modern warfare 2 (i believe it was) with two points of throttling and then back to idle. I have tons and tons of graphs showing the throttle issue and other component activities.





as a side note. I was wondering if this issue may be in part to the fan speed being based on gpu load as much as temperature.

I ask, because it is the only explanation I can currently come up with to explain why modern warfare 2 (not 3) on low settings causes higher temps than bf3 on ultra. I assume its because bf3 on ultra placed more load on the gpu and therefore dictates a more aggressive cooling response, where as mw2 does the opposite.

 

@Phoenix you may be experiencing the power throttle, not the thermal throttle. If your throttle occurs before you hit the 78C mark, then you can perform the fix in my sig

 

Thats the thing thatd odd though. The info you see if with your fix and it shows the slower fluctuations as normal fans and he faster fluctuations is after applying the hwi fan fix. So i assume its not normal.

 

Well the HWiNFO fix is for fan and EC overriding and helps with the 78C throttle. My fix is for the 65C throttle. They are different fixes for different problems.

 

Just mention both since the fan fix is what caused even more rapid fluctuations in temp and the power thrttle vbios fix is already in place so either the issue cant be power throttle or it didnt work which concerns me.

Makes me wonder if the card is defective ... Although it works fine on everything except temp.
I just dont have idle temp baselines to compare it to.

I also do not belie e its the pwer throttle though. As idle typically only gets up to about 56 and never the 63

 

Quick question since I haven't read too much on the R3 throttling: Does modifying the vbios p0/p1 solve it like it does for M18x? We also have throttling but modding the vbios takes care of that.

I'm pretty curious behind the 78C rationale as well. Frankly, Dell should design a better cooler for their AW notebooks instead of introducing crippling throttling in nearly every single generation of AW notebook--its getting old.

Bill knows I'm a big supporter of AW/Dell and the truth is I find this sort of thing quite frustrating. The designers knew well ahead of time that these would be 100W cards and should have designed the cooling accordingly. Clevo systems do not have throttling, even in 15.6" frames so there's no excuse for Dell. It's definitely not an nVidia problem else we'd see this across all manufacturers.

The M15x was plagued with throttling and we had to fight really hard to get it resolved. Then the M17x-R2 also had throttling at first along with shoddy driver support. Same story for the M17x-R3 and M18x. Can anyone see a pattern here? I wanted to write a follow-up article on my site about 580M SLi in an M18x but held back because I didn't want to bring up this ugly throttle issue--I hope it can be resolved at some point.

Without Bill and Chris around, we'd be screwed.

 

the GTX580M on MSI GT783 has run up to 82C without showing any lose of framerates, or signs of instability.

 

Aloha Guys!

This is my first post on this forum so bear with me but I thought it was time to pass on a bit of info that may help with the conference call as I too have been struggling with the 78 deg throttle but I also have to contend with Hawaii ambient temperatures which as of right now is 27 deg at 9PM.

For the past few months I've used this site as my go to for ACCURATE information on both the M17xR3 and the M18x as I was looking at purchasing one of the two at the end of last year.

Needless to say I finally pulled the trigger on a M17x and received the first one about a month ago. Due to quality issues (case was cracked and the trackpad wasn't working properly) I immediately requested a reorder which Dell processed and was for the most part easy to deal with.

During this waiting period the 580m was "delayed" so in the meantime I read just about every thread I could and did a bit of experimentation on my unit that was to be returned to Dell as they graciously let me keep it while awaiting the reorder.

About a week ago the new machine arrived and I took the opportunity to do some serious quality comparisons. The most interesting of which was to remove both GPU heat sinks to have a look at why my first unit easily hit the 78 deg throttle (already eliminated the lower power throttle thanks to widezu) at a 27 deg ambient temperature in about 45 minutes while my second one still hit the throttle but only after about an hour and a half of gaming.

Hitting the 78 deg throttle here was not during benching, no overclock, stock voltage playing games like SWTOR, CIV5, ANNO 2070 and others which are not the most demanding of games especially at what I had the graphics set at to maintain proper frame rates. The one mod I did do was to flash the unlocked AO8 bios so that I could disable the IGPU as Optimus was causing massive slowdowns with certain games.

Upon removing the heatsinks here is what I found:

The heatsink on the first one had been "shimmed" on the ram creating hotspots as I have a thermal infrared gun to measure these things for work. In addition the GPU processor was not being cooled efficiently with either heat sink even though these are the "new" versions due to the fact the heat sink was not seated properly and did not contact the surface evenly. In addition the second heat sink's surface was scratched fairly badly, which I saw once I removed the old paste. The scratched heatsink was also missing one of the ram's thermal pads (tape) and had the "shim" on the edge of the heatsink (see attached picture laptop #2, notice the lower left exposed copper plate). These pictures were taken immediately after I removed the heat sinks, they have not been altered in any way and are exactly as built from the factory with the exception that one of the screws fell out after removal and the "shim" on the edge of the heatsink fell off as I removed it so I just placed it back where it was originally for the picture.

SO what I did was remove all the old paste, apply new pads (tape) of the same thickness and dry fit test the heat sink over the GPU to test for either of the heat sinks being warped. One of which was significantly and therefore even if someone repasted it would probably help but still not as well as one with proper and even contact.

I then chose the heat sink that was "less" warped (which happened to be the scratched one) used fine lapping compound to smooth it out a bit, re applied thermal tape and dry fit again to ensure the new tape was evenly indented by all the ram and other components. I measured it so that there was a bit more thickness than what I estimated would be the difference of the new paste. Once this was accomplished I repasted with MX-4.

My temps dropped 11 deg at load!

Right now what was 78 deg is now 67 at 27 deg ambient. I have also now sucessfully overclocked to 750/1700/1500 @ .87 stock voltage and have not exceeded 67 deg running 3D Mark Vantage 5 times in a row, getting a score around 17.5 to 18K each run consistently. All while logging with GPUZ to make sure I was reaching over 95% load on the GPU while benching to increase the temps as much as possible.

Now I understand why Dell may be hampered by the 78 deg mark but the issue here is that the fundamental build quality of these systems are not up to par and are certainly not consistent given what I've seen of the two I've received over the past two months. I also believe that no matter what is done to the cooling system whether it be another fan profile or other modification future games and hardcore benchers will probably hit the throttle, at some point, unless it is increased in the Bios. My concern here is that I hit the throttle in "normal" gaming given my ambient temperatures before the repaste and tweaks. Without those adjustments the laptop would not have performed to expectation and if I were someone who was not technically savy I would be very upset right now that I just bought a $2K plus laptop that was not doing what it was supposed to, hell if I didn't know to disable Optimus I would have sent it back the first day as I am a Rugby fan and Rugby Challenge works like crap with Optimus (23 FPS vs 60 FPS solid w/ IGPU disabled)

Anyway, If it might be of help I have a load of data and thermals (including images) which I can provide. I also can monitor power at the card and the board but I am hesitant to do so now that I finally have this thing running well.

For what its worth I just wanted you guys to know what has worked for me and if you need me to test or check anything specifically I'm willing to as I have access to just about an entire electronics shop for work. If there are any "technical" hardware items that need to be checked for the conference call then please let me know as I would be more than willing to help here.

 

That was a long read, but very informative. I plan to repaste and probably repad both my CPU & GPU sometime next month after getting settled in England. I hope you don't mind, but I plan to shoot you a few PMs with some questions about repasting . I've never done it before and you seem very knowledgeable.

 

@Vytis, welcome. You definitely know what you are talking about. That paste and pad job that Dell provided is AWFUL!

I'm a Rugby fan too being from the UK and all @SkylineLvr, where are you moving to in the UK?

 

I'm getting stationed at Lakenheath RAB. Really looking forward to it. I haven't seen too much of rugby, but from what I have seen, it would be a sport I would be into. I'm a huge fan of American football. I still need to find a football team to root for. I hear you Brits can be pretty strong headed about your teams

 

Yeah I know, I'm one of those people who despise football but I'm all about Rugby. I like America Hand-Egg too

 

@Vytis, Great post. Also highlights some other great points. Out of interest does anyone/Dell know what pads should be used and where they should be placed on the heat sync.

Also very true when you've paied this much for a laptop you expect a little better quality control.

 

OMG! seeing the first picture (ram getting busted by the pad!) I am repadding and repasting my GPU asap!!! dangerous!!

 

Thanks for the warm welcome! (pun intended)

Since today is Sunday I decided to do a bit more digging into Dell Bill's cryptic statements about looking at the whole system and not just the GPU. Sorry for these long posts but if any of this helps us all out I think it will be worth the read.

With the amount of posts I've seen about Dell replacing mother boards (which may just be a coincidence) I have a question to pose to Bill and Dell engineering about how the voltage is regulated on the M17x and M18x.

For my day job I am a power engineer and know a thing or two about AC-DC power conversion. In looking closely at the 240w power supply I noticed something that I would like to have clarified a bit as there are no detailed schematics on the web from Dell that might provide answers, this may be nothing but here goes:

The 240 watt power adapter gets it's rating from the fact that it provides 19.5 volts DC @ 12.3 amps (19.5x12.3=239.83 watts). Now according to HWINFO my system is regulated at 12.695 volts which means the 19.5 volts at the connector needs to be regulated down to 12.695 for the system to utilize this. It seems this can be accomplished two ways: 1. There is one voltage regulator which can convert the higher DC input to the lower system voltages, does all the work and deals with the excess power (more on this in a minute), or 2. There are multiple regulators that utilize the total available power that is provided by the AC adapter.

Now here's the rub: Most people use an AC watt meter like a Kill-A-Watt to determine total system draw which I have seen in some reviews is as much as 196 watts AC. The problem with this is that the conversion of AC to DC is not 100% and the "extra" power usually ends up being lost in the form of heat. In other words 196 watts before the conversion to DC does not mean that the system is acutally using 196 watts (or even that it is capable of doing so).

Depending on how the voltage regulation is accomplished, since I know there is 19.5 volts at the plug and 12.695 on the system bus that means there is quite a potential difference between the laptop adapter and the internally regulated system voltage. If the internal regulator cannot adjust to provide more amperage at a lower voltage then the "excess" power must be dumped, in the form of heat.

Now we know the 240 watt adapter puts out 12.3 amps so let's assume that the same amperage is utilized fully at the 12.695 system voltage. The there is quite a difference between power draw and actual system capability. Here are the numbers:

19.5 volts x 12.3 amps= 239.85 watts
12.695 volts x 12.3 amps= 156.149 watts
Difference=83.701 watts

Which could possibly mean two things, depending on how the system's power is internally regulated:

1. The maximum available power at the DC side is 156.149 watts, and/or
2. 83.701 watts of energy would need to be dealt with, or in other words, (possibly) converted to heat.

Now depending on the actual electrical design of the system (which I am not privy to) if the voltage is managed in this way it MIGHT account for a whole host of problems that have been talked about on this website including temperature throttle, potential latency issues in SLI configuration, motherboard failures and the like. These issues would also manifest more readily in top end systems like those with XM CPU's and SLI/CF configurations which push the power supply to the max and from the anecdotal evidence on this and other forums, that in fact seems to be the case.

Dell B if you could please check on this with engineering I would very much appreciate it and depending on the answer I'd like to be in on the conference call. Maybe this is nothing but I figured I'd ask anyway.

 

@vytis, great research and testing! It's been a very long time (25 years plus) since I used an oscilloscope in testing for finding faulty components on PCB's but I think I see where you are coming from. Apart from the poor QC and air-flow I have always suspected the root cause was in the power design. Either an inadequate power supply (transformer), or bad design on the voltage regulator side of the MB. Curious how the MX18 gets an instant fix and it has a much 'beefier' power supply. I was thinking that the external supply unit just couldn't provide the wattage needed, especially as it gets almost too hot to touch. You've opened up a whole different way of seeing it for me but it still comes down to 'not fit for purpose', the basis of my future claim againstdell to get my money back if this is not resolved!
Thanks again!

 

Just shaking my head. I've seen other pics like this, now I'm dreading what i am going to see. Where are they assembling them? Guess there will be a kit out soon with all the correct size pads, dell?

 

Orders this side of the pond in Europe seem to be assembled in China according to shipping tracking from the moment the order is placed. Those pictures are truly atrocious. My system came with the long thing pad/paste thing somewhere else in my system. It didn't stay on and just fell off due to lack of proper contact. Just goes to show that the robust cooling system of the M17x R3 goes to waste because of silly and careless paste and pad jobs.

I recently swapped out the memory pads with new Phobya ones, and repasted very carefully with premium paste and even in warm ambients of 25C or more, I don't hit the 78C mark. This is not to say that the 78C throttle isn't bad, I'm still all for raising it or removing it completely. I'm just saying that for people who want to get their hands dirty, some may be pretty shocked to see how Dell actually sent out their system.