[Conference Call] Nvidia GeForce GTX 580M 78C° Throttling [SEE POST #191 and later]

^^ Totally useful info there. I have written in big letters in my throttle thread that the 0.92v vbios is for benchers and hardcore users only.

I don't use a fan profile of any sort. I have repasted very carefully and even in room temperatures upwards of 25C+ I never hit the 78C ceiling. I'm just saying that the throttle can easily be avoided if your circumstances are ideal.

 

There's tweakers like me and then there's Widezu, Mr. Fox, GeoCake, and the list goes on. The .92 bios is for you guys. The .87 is for the poor schleps like me that just want to get our game on. I don't even know why I get worked up over a theoretical throttle. The only way I can observe the throttle is by disabling the first P state and running Furmark until I get hot. I've never actually seen it in a game. If I would stop fiddling with this thing, put on my 3D glasses, and use it for what it was made for, I might get some enjoyment out of it. I spend way too much time fretting over tweaks and not enough time putting arrows in the knees of the city guards.

I have some gaming to do. Carry on.

 

Not sure if it's the right card but I did find this picture. Hopefully it's helpful in showing correct thermal pad placement. Although I believe the thermal pad on the top is just one big one that goes across the width of the card.

 

That's a Clevo card but the layout is sound and yes you are correct, the thermal pad on top goes across the width of the card

Also there should be thermal pad on the smaller black blocks as well. The two on the side as well as the four in a row near the back.

 

Would I be able to get new pads and paste from Dell for free? Or would I need to go out and buy it myself? If I have to get it myself, anyone know where they sell that in the UK? Pretty new here and still trying to figure my way around and learn what stores are what, lol.

I really want to take a look at the pads and make 100% sure that it is all good in there. I mean my temps are pretty good and all, but I guess I'm still a bit paranoid. Especially about someone else's work who might not even care how good of a job they did.

 

Update Friday 04-20, 2012:

Well the box came back from Bill in FedEx this morning. I've had time to make a couple of FurMarkruns under pretty much the same conditions as earlier in the week; ambient heretoday is ~24C but same on solid desk position, clear vents, no cooling pad, noelevation of the back. The results follow:

Four minutes after a cold boot the card was reading52C. This is a 60Hz screen with Optimusenabled.
I ran FurMark 1.9 on the 1920X1080 15” Benchmark settingsand 5” in the card was 68C with a max of 70C; at 10” in the card was 70C with amax of 72C; at 15” in the card was at 72C with a max of 73C.
I then allowed the system to rest (idle) at the desktop for10 minutes. Note, this is a change fromthe test earlier in the week where I allowed it to rest for 30”; I decided topush it harder this time.
After 10” rest the card was at 56C.
I ran FurMark again, same 1920X1080 settings. At 5” in thecard was 73C with a max of 74C; at 10” in the card was 75C with a max of 75C;at 15” in the card was at 76C with a max of 76C.
I have a killer GIS presentation that throttled the machineevery time before it went to Bill. Ijust ran it end-to-end and no problems encountered at all.
Let’s pronounce thisa WIN! Bill’s work with theheatsink, pads and paste eliminated the 78C throttle and dropped the temps wellto within a manageable range.
Bill, thanks againman, I can’t begin to thank you for all of your help on this! You are just awesome and Dell is damnfortunate to have you. You are reallylooking out for your customers and it is very much appreciated! Wish I could give you 50 reps!
Just one observation for the Dell engineers… perhaps just abit more aggressive a fan profile would help bring the temps down quicker/lowerwhen the cards returns to idle. Approximately 30” has passed since the last FurMark run with card atidle and the card is at 55C. Just athought…
Regards,
Cliff<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><o></o>

 

Glad I could help. It's really super easy. I didn't need the tear down guide. 11 screws total. I can do it in my sleep now.
I bet my wife could do it, too. She's not THE most technical, but she is a darn fine tech. I know she could do it real quick, too. She shot my totally weaksauce video that I refuse to post.

 

Update Friday 04-20, 2012:

Well the box came back from Bill in FedEx this morning. I've had time to make a couple of FurMark runs under pretty much the same conditions as earlier in the week; ambient here today is ~24C but same on solid desk position, clear vents, no cooling pad, no elevation of the back. The results follow:

Four minutes after a cold boot the card was reading52C. This is a 60Hz screen with Optimus enabled.

I ran FurMark 1.9 on the 1920X1080 15” Benchmark settings and 5” in the card was 68C with a max of 70C; at 10” in the card was 70C with a max of 72C; at 15” in the card was at 72C with a max of 73C.

I then allowed the system to rest (idle) at the desktop for10 minutes. Note, this is a change from the test earlier in the week where I allowed it to rest for 30”; I decided to push it a bit harder this time.

After 10” rest the card was at 56C.

I ran FurMark again, same 1920X1080 settings. At 5” in the card was 73C with a max of 74C; at 10” in the card was 75C with a max of 75C; at 15” in the card was at 76C with a max of 76C.

I have a killer GIS presentation that throttled the machine every time before it went to Bill. I just ran it end-to-end and no problems were encountered at all.

Let’s pronounce this a WIN! Bill’s work with the heatsink, pads and paste eliminated the 78C throttle and dropped the temps to within a manageable range.

Bill, thanks again man, I can’t begin to thank you for all of your help on this! You are just awesome and Dell is damn ortunate to have you. You are really looking out for your customers and it is very much appreciated! Wish I could give you 50 reps!

Just one observation for the Dell engineers… perhaps just a bit more aggressive a fan profile would give a little extra cushion and help bring the temps down quicker/lower when the card returns to idle after being stressed. Approximately 30” has passed since the last FurMark run with card at idle and the card is at 55C. I can appreciate the need for a balance between cooling and fan noise but I'd be in favor of just a bit more airflow. Just a thought…

Regards all,
Clifff

 

This sounds like a good solution after all. So what is the exact method employed or differently done as compared to the onsite Engineer? Are they using another type of paste, strip, torque applied variation when screwing the heat sink etc. Why isnt this magic revealed in a video or suitable guide. This can be followed all of us around the globe because I dont think all of us can keep FedExing the system.

If we knew this, than all the engineer who visit can be guided to follow the exact methodology used.

It would be great if this is revealed in a stepwise or checklist manner.

I hope Bill can really help on this matter.

 

Okey guys, i am gona try to change the thermalpast on my m17xr3.

dont know if i should use mx-4 or Arctic silver?????
Know the arctic silver has some years on its neck, but it still is darn good!

Also about the glueie heat pads on the GPU, should i replace these with none dell heat pads???? If so, what kind and make? =)

Won´t be worth shippng to Bill, due to the MASSIVE postal cost ^^

//Marcus O

//Marcus O

 

1 word, 11 letters plus 2 letters and a numnber:

Prolimatech PK-1. Decent and consistent paste. Up there with the best. I personally use IC Diamond but I don't really recommend it.

 

Don't tell Bill and Louis, but I repasted mine two days ago with AS5.

The very next day after I drove over there and watched them rebuild it, a new GPU arrived at my doorstep. I left it on the desk for a day and then I couldn't stand it anymore. I tore the thing down again exactly as I had seen Louis do it, carefully installed the heat sink on the new card with AS5 which is what I had on hand, and put it all back together.

There's no change, though. It still runs cool and stable with no throttling. I ran four benchmarks and a couple of furmark runs. The temps and scores were exactly the same as they were immediately after Louis did it.

I've used IC Diamond 7. It works great. I've used MX4 and it's great. I've now used AS5 and it appears to be wonderful too. I think the next time I have to do a repaste on something, I'll try PK-1.

There was one more thing that Louis told me that I completely forgot to tell you guys. Apparently, using a rotating/shifting color scheme for the keyboard can cause a hit in performance on some games! I was using a really nifty theme I downloaded here in the forums that rotates through various colors constantly. Louis said a static theme was better when gaming. He said that sometimes in Left for Dead 2, if you have a rotating theme like mine, your character will unexpectedly turn left at random. I'm on a static theme now.

 

Repasting does not void out warranties. Bill has stated that we can take everything apart and put it back together and it will not affect warranty as long as you don't break anything by doing it.

Any I understand that a animated theme would use a bit more CPU than a static one but turning left on Left4Dead?!

 

I know. I just felt bad because they took time out of their day to do mine personally and then I turned around and "redid" it three days later.

Louis said that the commands sent to change the lights colors can get intercepted by the input routine of the game you're playing. I own L4D2 but I don't play it much so I had never seen it myself. I thought I would pass it along.

 

That compound is not easy to get a hold on here in sweden
Have some AS5 and mx-4 laying around ^^

What method did you use then aplying? Smal "rice" in the middle, and let the preasure even it out or use a creditcard to swipe it out??

Ohh and the sticky things should also be replaced? The two white thingys next to det GPU core.

Any good brand that i should use? And that i might get a hold of on ebay =)?

Realy hope that repaste video comes any time soon

 

I did a thin line in the middle and the max temp i get is 68*c even with OC! couldnt be happier

 

Sweet

Did you also change the thermalpads?

 

After the conference call I went ahead and asked Dell for a new heatsink as I was concerned about the fact that I needed to remove the original MOSFET TIM (it was improperly installed at the factory, see pics in previous posts) to get the heatsink to sit evenly on the GPU core for my first repaste. Before I replaced with the new stock pasted/padded Dell heatsink my temps were no greater than 67 deg while gaming but I did get a bit higher in CUDA apps.

After the new Dell stock heatsink was installed I hit the 78 deg throttle while gaming SWTOR in less than 30 minutes while @ 25 deg ambient.

The best I can come up with is that the MOSFET TIM and the other 1mm pads are thicker than the GPU core TIM which is applied on the main GPU core cooling plate. Therefore by removing the MOSFET TIM (which I don't recommend as it is the hottest part of the card) you're actually able to get better overall contact with the GPU core and thus reduce core temps.

So why does some stock Dell heatsinks work better? I believe it comes down to the application thickness of the GPU core TIM which is why a repaste is ALWAYS better since the more fluid aftermarket pastes usually are applied thicker by us end users as a matter of habit.

I've ordered some 1.0mm Phobya pads from Frozen CPU and when they come in I will repaste with MX-4 which is what gave me good results last time and is my preferred paste but in reality most of the top brands are all within a degree or two of one another when properly applied.

I'll post my temps when done so you can see the difference.

 

I have a video shoot I want to do with Louis, but Alienware is not one of my supported platforms. So I've had to move it down the priority list with a slew of upcoming XPS, Inspiron, Vostro, All-in-One and desktop releases coming over the next couple of months. I also have vacation 2 weeks from today, so I have to get in 4 weeks of deliverables for launches within 2 weeks.

This may not happen until late May. The plan is to get the service account managers to promote the video to the service providers and uploaded to their smart phone app, so they can have it on hand everywhere they go.

I personally don't see the need to paste with anything besides the stock paste, but I don't live day to day with the system, and I wouldn't overclock if I did. Ultimately, I would defer to Vytis, Widezu and others on this question, but on the 2 swaps I've seen and done, I never hit 78C in any Furmark (not Dell supported or endorsed) runs. I think we can all agree THE single biggest factor is having the thermal pads properly placed and aligned. Seems to me the paste is secondary to the pads, but I'm a rank amateur.

To my point above.

Did you install the stock heatsink and paste yourself, or was that done by the onsite tech? If the tech did it, I'd say that was the pertinent factor more than the paste. But then, you are out of my realm of comparison, since I have not tinkered with any clock settings.
EDIT: Duh. You said plainly you did it yourself. Now I'm at a loss.

One very important thing to call out here- when I did the swap and removed the heatsink installed by the onsite tech, it was missing 2 large pads. The only real difference between the tech's install and mine was I put the pads back on the heatsink correctly. I won't go into the comedy of perfectly formed dots of paste on the RAM modules that never made contact with the heatsink. They even had the little Dairy Queen curl still on them. Very cute.

 

So opened up my 580m.
Is the thermalpaste suppose to be hard or liquidy? ;P
The Original thermalpaste was just like it were aplied 10 min ago.
And almost all the thermal pads are cracked :S suppose that is a issue?
Talked to frozencpu today and will pickup some fujipoly heatpads on my trip to NY

 

It's "gummy" at room temp. It changes viscosity with heat. I do not know anything about aftermarket pads, but I guess they're equal or better? The biggest key with the pads is to make absolutely certain you have the same pad layout as original. Vytis posted some good pics (I think I did, too?) of what the layout should be. If you follow that layout with aftermarket pads, as long as the quality is like or better, and you have at least as good as our thermal material on the GPU itself, you should be good.

 

I am sitting here reading this whole post about the 580m. For the record I know how to do some basic troubleshooting but reading all of this is telling me what I am missing. Dell's service has been nothing but a head ace to me. I keep telling them that I have never had this issue until I sent them the computer... I have no clue when it come to video cards. By the way I have a Alienware m17 R3. I was looking at the application they loaded on my computer, and I noticed the the gpu drops to 0% at 1 to 2 times. I have tried explain to them I have video lag but not really game lag. This is during the cut scenes of the game. Then they just sent me over to there gaming department and said this is not covered in the service. Then I say it never happened until I DPS it to you guys, but beyond frustrated... So what I am thinking that I am reading is that after the 580M hits 78C it becomes vary slow. Does anyone on the thread know how I can fix my problem? I don't mind paying dell, but i think they should have fixed this when I had to send it the 2nd time. I also found out that they may have also taken my Intel GPU out of the computer so now I have to send it the 3rd time. Can someone help me out here?

Thanks in advance.

 

The Intel GPU cannot be removed. It is on the CPU. What is your problem exactly? Apart from ranting at your techs.

 

The issue is that during the cut scenes of mostly any game that I do play is extremely choppy. The sound also stops for a brief second also. Vary rarely will the game get choppy but I have noticed it happening.

So in your opinion is the Intel GPU a better solution than they have me on now? Since it is a part of the CPU.

 

Are you in the US or Canada?

 

I am in the US

 

You could try this: http://forum.notebookreview.com/ali...x-r3-580m-thermal-throttling.html#post8345887

Hey Bill, you seem to be monitoring this thread so I have a question. Is it possible for current Alienware owners to buy upgraded parts (specifically the GPU) from Dell and retain our warranty? Will the warranty cover the upgraded parts we buy?

I have an extended warranty, but I might be interested in getting a new GPU before my warranty expires, and I am just wondering if it is an option to upgrade and have the new part be covered under the warranty. Is there a specific number or department I should contact about this sort of thing?

 

If you have no luck with Yoda's suggestion below, let me know. I'll talk to the L3's and see if we can get Federico out here to help you.

If you buy the part from us, you get a 90 day warranty on the part. It doesn't get folded into the system warranty. There's really very little motivation to buy spare parts from us if you can find the same part elsewhere, TBH. If you just Google "parts for your Dell," first link should be the spare parts page.

 

Thanks for the info.

 

Ok, I will try this out and post my results. One more Question So in your opinion is the Intel GPU a better solution than they have me on now? They said they thought I had 3d, so I'm guessing they took it out. From widezu69 post leads me to believe they swopped out the CPU.

 

There is no way for them to swap it out. If you have 3D then you cannot use the Intel GPU, if you have non-3D then the Intel GPU is always available. It is actually part of the CPU, there is no CPU that does not have it.

If they thought you had 3D maybe they gave you a free 3D screen? The non-3D screen will not work in the 3D screen port, so basically, you either have non-3D and Optimus with intel GPU, or you have 3D with no Optimus and 580m only. Those are the only 2 possibilities.

 

I see. Thanks for the quick responses guys!

Hey I think I found the problem but I am not sure where to start. I went into my nvidia control panel and turned on the show PhysX, and it is telling me it is running off of the cpu. People all over the internet is saying you don't want to do this. Well I did a little more research, and saw that this could be the bios. Should I flash the Bios back to the modded version of A08 that is offered in some of the threads here? The one I was looking at is here ( http://forum.notebookreview.com/alienware-m17x/634586-turn-off-intel-igp-m17x-r3-bios-mod.html)

 

If your card has Optimus it should be running off the Intel GPU when you are not gaming, when you go to game the Nvidia will kick in.

 

Ok. So What I think may have happened is I don't have a 3D screen because it won't turn on. They may have messed up the card because it is not switching to optimus when playing games. I have tried a lot of things to try and get this to work correctly. I have uninstalled the video drivers, and put them back. The game I have been testing this on is Mass Effect 2. It just says up in the corner Physx => cpu. I think that Dell may have messed up? Can someone correct me if I am wrong. I just been fighting with dell on this and they say it is a software issue and you have to pay for them to look into it.

 

Just jumping in here but I think you might be on the wrong trail. The physX you see is telling you it is using the CPU for physics calculations not the IGP on the CPU. Check what you have selected in the driver. Go to the 'set physX configuration' page and see what is selected there?

 

PhysX may be disabled in your driver, you would know if the 580m was not kicking in, you would not be able to get 10 FPS on all low settings in any modern game.

You can check the GPU behavior by Right-clicking on Desktop --> NVIDIA Control Panel --> Desktop (A menu item at the top of the window) --> Display GPU Activity Icon in Notification Area.

This will put an icon down by your clock that shows if the GPU is running, start your game, alt-tab out, and see if it is running.

 

That's what I have been messing with. I set it to always on the 580M and still the same results.

I do have that checked and I have not seen a notification at the bottom. I do agree with you about the FPS. I have turned the game up to the highest settings to see if this will kick in but it never says it does. I also tried hitting the FN and F7, and that also did nothing. I have added a picture of what I am seeing. Does your games say that or GPU when running games? I am just not sure if I need to get back on the phone with Dell and say they messed up again?

 

Team - I have updated the opening post of the http://forum.notebookreview.com/ali...ial-m17xr3-owners-lounge-thread-part-3-a.html with information provided by DELLChrisM as follows:

 

OK, I'm at a loss then, something is screwy. I tested mine and it changes to whatever I select in the driver.
I do not get the menu option mentioned above (never seen it!) so I can't try that one.
forgot: FN+F7 give me a 'switch graphics card' window when in the desktop (although with my 3D model it says already configured for optimal performance)

 

I am not sure what they did when they first got my computer but it has been doing this ever since. I really don't know how to explain it to them so they can say oh we messed up on our side. They just want to transfer me over to there gaming department because it is a software issue. I am not sure if it is a software or hardware issue. I keep doing more and more digging with all the information that you guys give me and I find other people that having the same problem, but almost not... Do you think if I called Dell's Gaming department and just said this is happening and I am not sure how to get this to switch. They said you don't have to pay unless they resolve the issue. Resolve the issue on the first call? I am not sure how that works.

 

@spawn, try resetting your bios, and doing a clean install of windows with fresh drivers etc. That's the best way to go about troubleshooting anything that may be a software issue. By reformatting, you are effectively eliminating any potential problems.

 

^Best advice to demonstrate whether it's software or hardware.^
If you do a clean install and still have the issue, they can't possibly justify referring you to fee based support. If they try to pull that on you, refuse and let me know.

 

^The voice of someone who cares... Bill, you put the "@" in @DellCares, brother. The "thank you's" might be getting redundant, but the gratitude cannot be overstated.

 

btw, does the new M18x R2 ( kepler GTX 675M ) have any problems with it ? does it throttle or anything ? im planning to get one soon, might gonna wait till Ivy Bridge is there with it ... any advice ?

 

I seriously doubt the throttle point (if any) on M18x will not come into play during anything but the most extreme cases (high ambient temp, extreme overclock on a Furmark run, blocked ventillation, etc)

Somebody fact check me, but I believe the rated Wattage of the 675 is the same as the 580, right?

It's my pleasure, and everyone is most welcome.

 

So u r telling me Bill, that the M18x R1/2 is the ultimate gaming machine that have NEVER had any possible problem any laptop may get ? can i take ur word for sure & trustful ? if yes, what config should i go for ?

 

Fact check complete...

Fact #2 - the M18x with GTX 580M SLI does not throttle in games, and if you take appropriate steps, you cannot make it throttle in extreme load conditions. By appropriate steps, I mean a simple software solution...

http://forum.notebookreview.com/ali...-throttle-fix-no-vbios-flashing-required.html

This might work for your Toshiba. You can try it and see... I hope it does.

 

If you're asking me to state in writing that a Dell/Alienware has never had a problem in the past: hahahahahaha


But seriously, not exactly sure what kind of answer you're looking for. Do you want me to be a sales guy and say, "I assure you Alienware takes quality very seriously, and will stand by our product and our warranty," then ok. Consider it said.

Furthermore, I never stated any such thing verbatim. If you feel comfortable with an Alienware, go for it. If you feel better about MSI, or Clevo or whatever, you should give them your business. I'm not a transactional marketer or salesperson. All I have to offer is a relationship with you representing my company between points of sale. At point of sale activities are best left up to the sales folks. I'm just a guy who loves his brand and loves his customers.

 

Brother Bill may not be able to tell you this for a number of reasons. But nothing stops me from telling you that the M18x R1 is the "ultimate gaming laptop." Nobody can say that a particular system made or sold by any company will NEVER have a technical problem. If they do, they are fibbing to you. I can tell you that the Dell Advanced Warranty is the best you can get from any company, bar none. If you have a problem, they take care of you. It's not always a perfect process, but the end result has always met or exceeded my expectations as a customer. Dell/Alienware is the only company that I can say that I have had such an experience with.

If Bill tells you something, you can pretty much count on it. If he makes a mistake, he always admits and clarifies. You cannot get much better than that with a company rep.

If you haven't noticed, the participation level and interaction with Dell/Alienware reps at NBR eclipses all other brands. Has anyone from Toshiba read the forums and offered assistance with your issues? Dell-Bill_B, DELLChrisM and AW-FedericoH are here for you.

 

Wow, amazing report, Mr. Fox ...
well, there isnt any difference in there ( 580 vs 675 ) ... except for the voltage .. it shows that the 580 = 0.92, while the 675 = 0.87 ?
does Nvidia working on saving the planet for less energy consumption ? is that the plan for GPU development ?