ATI 5870 Crossfire Driver Issues with Alienware - Discussion Thread

Ok folks... we have multiple threads going on this and we need to move toward a centralized thread for this issue. Moving forward, any threads which are created to discuss Crossfire Performance (or lack of) as it relates to the driver will be closed and redirected here. This also goes for any thread which is created to discuss which driver should be used.

From what I have found with my Dell systems over the years - at least with NV based GPUs, the majority of the time, using the Dell provided driver tends to produce the most compatible results as the driver is geared towards the GPU in the system. NV and ATI provided drivers cover a wide range of GPUs and do not always include tweaks for a given system.

In any event, lets post issues here - try to be as detailed as possible. We now have multiple Alienware folks reviewing the forums and providing as much detail as possible ( which driver are you seeing an issue with, what have you tried, install method, settings, etc.), may help.

Any questions on the decision to re-route all of the ATI Crossfire threads here, PM me.

I have redirected Joker's thread here as well. He provided a launching point to this -

Lets continue here...

Thanks.

 

Specifically what games have you seen these on Joker?

 

In regards to the flickering issue, i again brought it up with alienware tech support, asking if they had tested for it/encountered it on their own in-office systems and for progress on a fix etc and the reply i got was:

"The flickering issue with 5870s in crossfire does not only appear on Alienware systems, it’s even present on desktops with these cards. Ati is aware of it and should release a fixed driver in the near future."

So that seems to be that for now... nothing we didn't already know really, but this is their standpoint atm.

 

In addition to posting which titles are having problems, be sure to post which driver you are using, method of install, tweaks (vsync off), etc.

While I have had a few very beneficial conversations with Level 1 tech support, I do not always trust their responses as they deal with customers constantly - they 'hear' different things and this can be applied to their responses.

 

I have noticed some slight flickering and micro stuttering in Crysis but nothing serious in that it is still playable and tolerable, the issues usually appear in heavily populated areas of the game or during intense battles. However, Crysis is a very demanding game and I have yet to play the game at max settings, and native res hitting 70+ fps! I am installing Metro 2033 and will test to find any flaws. Also, what games are actually producing the flickering issues that many are experiencing?

 

Hi oogamar

Yourself, Steviejones, and Adrianrp all from the UK (all have MLK version) and all are having major problems with crossfire. I purchased in Canada and my computer shipped from the USA. I have NO flickering issues with my 5870CF during game play. I see the Valve logo flicker when a game loads (1 second) but have never once had a game flicker during game play. I think it is too generic to say all ATI 5870 have the same issues because clearly some of us are not having problems.

P.S. I thinking the R1, R2 and MLK versions all have different issues. All crossfire has tearing issues when FPS fall below 14 FPS, that is yet again another issue. The 5870 is currently one of the most popular ATI cards for both single and CF desktop systems so not buying what Alienware is saying. Laptop GPU's are custom made and the problem lies in the specifications.

The R1 had a DPC latency issue corrected with new drivers
The R2 had an issue that was corrected with bios
The MLK has an unidentified issue.

This system has had rave reviews. If the issue was that wide spread I think professional reviews would have something to say. Since the issue goes widely unoticed I think it is very limited.

I am playing Crysis right now at HIGH settings and 8x AAA. No flickering but lower FPS during some fight scenes. My build has the standard DVD player. Notice that some who have issues have the blue ray player, usually 4 gig of ram and HDD. Coincidence?

 

Predator and Falcon, please post back which driver you are using. Perhaps one reason some are not seeing certain behavior others are seeing is due to driver ver differences.

When posting it helps to include this, especially when there are so many diverse reports...

Thanks guys!

 

Good idea, thanks BatBoy.

Stock Cataylst/Dell
Driver Packaging Version 8.692.2-100203a1-095371C-Dell
Provider ATI Technologies Inc.
2D Driver Version 8.01.01.994
2D Driver File Path /REGISTRY/MACHINE/SYSTEM/ControlSet001/Control/CLASS/{4D36E968-E325-11CE-BFC1-08002BE10318}/0000
Direct3D Version 8.14.10.0723
OpenGL Version 6.14.10.9263
Catalyst™ Control Center Version 2010.0203.2211.39787

 

BatBoy do you think 4 Gb ram or HDD could be a bottleneck? Stevie thinks his system was a return with a retrofit card card. Do you think it possible that they have sourced cards from different vendors and there could be some compatibility issues?

 

I could be wrong falcon, but my thought is its driver related. I dont believe we are going to see HW causing the issue.

What I have noticed over the course of my time dealing with issues, both my own systems and issues reported on NBR, more than 3/4 of the time, it is always driver/software related.

More posting the better - look forward to seeing what you guys come up with as a cause.

 

well i am still waiting for my 5870s order (as parts) from Dell US. ordered on 1st July and still in production.
when and if i ever get them i will be happy to test things to watch this issue

 

What is an MLK version? Some posts here say it's the same as the R2, others (jokingly?) called it the Martin Luther King edition...

Just curious, since your post differentiates the MLK from the R2.

 

Just to clarify a couple of points, i have tried both the dell driver and the 10.6 driver - both yeild the same flickering.
It is very visable in menus but very very subtle during gameplay and is only really visable when you look at darker or heavy shadowed scenes.

Btw falcon my understanding of it was that the r2 and the mlk are one and the same, component for component and i agree that it's a little weird that a few of us in the uk are seeing this more than others.
But then again there have been reports of this issue in us and other systems desktops included.
As batboy said i think it's unlikely that this is a hw issue because of the widespreadness of the issue over multiple systems desktops and m17x's alike.

It does seem to be limited to the new 5 series cards so maybe they've done something different with them and the crossfire drivers havn't evolved with the technology resulting in inconsistencies.
But then again that might be a load of rubbish, who knows?
I'd like to hear some responce from ati if they are fixing it.

 

Great Question with no serious answer to be found. The UK website refers to their current version of M17x as an MLK. I contacted Alienware UK and Canada via chat and they could not tell me what MLK stood for. Europe has different laws about wireless signals vs North America. Perhaps that is one difference. Maybe a different driver set? When I researched on the net I found no explanation.

 

MLK = R2. Originally, I recall the US site showed MLK as well. I believe this was Dell's own reference to it. Brian will have to confirm of course. There is no difference between them as they are one in the same

ooagmar, which titles are you seeing this with both drivers? I will look over the other threads and help out by moving over some of the other info you all have posted.

 

Titles i have seen this in are:
Napoleon total war
Crysis (all of them)
Star wars the force unleashed
Devil may cry 4
Deadspace
Bad company 2
World in conflict
Arma 2 (demo)

Generally everything i have put in has the flickering when crossfire is enabled.

 

I agree with BatBoy that the vast majority of problems drivers are usually the culprit. I like his idea to check everyones drivers.

My rep was upfront with me and said they did have trouble with the 5870 CF driver. But that still doesn't explain why some are running flawlessly and others are having problems.

Could the Blue Ray driver be the issue? I purchased the vanila DVD.

Sherlock Holmes quote "when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."

 

Just to clarify, is this the type of flickering some are having?

YouTube - Alienware M17X-R2 flickering

 

No the flickering is more like on an old analogue tv with verticle lines, evenly spaced that are darker than the rest of the picture flowing up the screen, flickering on and off. Its not the crazy flickering problem the r2 used to have. It's allot more subtle... but just enough to annoy you

 

You are describing exactly what Steviejones(UK) reported yesterday. Myself have never seen what either of you are describing.

 

I'm also describing what joker reported a week ago and quite a few others have reported aswell if you check the thread you'll see that it's not just limited to the uk.

 

there are bound to be reports which do not follow a specific track. This happens often. Overclocking or underclocking may play a role in this as well. you two have very interesting results since they differ. the more data the better. as people post more, perhaps we will see a trend.

 

*2 people in the UK I have talked to have serious problems with Dell stock CF drivers. Steviejones, & Adrianrp.
*A handful on this thread considering the population size is not all that significant.
*must be careful not to draw too many inferences from R1 as that is Nvidia and R2's running AMD Catalyst drivers as they are not running R2 stock drivers.
*Can't draw inferences from those other links as they are refering to a different brand of desktop motherboard and a different GPU. Your card is called a 5870 but technically is closer to a desktop 5770. Also those links are comparing a vast number of different bios not a fair comparison.
*People who overclock, overvoltage, and change drivers are not in the same boat as those who run stock drivers.
*People in the UK are reporting a problem with ALL games. The odd person in USA is reporting a problem with a specific game or few games but not all.
*Considering the hundreds who post on this site I would think every single one of them would be complaining if they all had the same problem.
*I dont have the problem so cleary the problem is not everywhere.

 

well say that again for some people that dont know what overclocking may mean. in fact i wonder if the issue was there from the beginning or started after extreme overclock....

 

The reference to desktops was just to highlight that this exact symptom is present on other systems and not just unique to a couple of m17x's. It seems to be present in systems with the new 5 series cards (mobile or desktop) in crossfire.

I have tried overclocking these cards but that had no bearing on the flickering at all and it was there before i overclocked (out of the box).

Also i wasn't suggesting that the problem was everywhere, i'm just trying to establish how in these cases it seems more likely to be driver related. BUT that seems strange because others with the same drivers such as yourself have no issues which points back to hardware.
BUT like i said in jokers thread, if it were hardware then v-sync wouldn't have any effect on the problem but as it stands it does, which points back to software.
I'm totally confused as to what is behind this because each factor points to something else.

 

BatBoy,

Here are my driver specs:

Driver Packaging Version 8.692.2-100203a1-095371C-Dell
Provider ATI Technologies Inc.
2D Driver Version 8.01.01.994
2D Driver File Path /REGISTRY/MACHINE/SYSTEM/ControlSet001/Control/CLASS/{4D36E968-E325-11CE-BFC1-08002BE10318}/0001
Direct3D Version 8.14.10.0723
OpenGL Version 6.14.10.9263
Catalyst™ Control Center Version 2010.0203.2211.39787

 

That's borderline artifacting, I wouldn't call that flickering even though that seems like that's what it's doing. I believe the 'flickering' most are referring to is the kind you see if you were to take a video of a CRT monitor while it's on. The Refresh rate of the video capture device is lower than the monitor, so 'waves and lines' appear to crawl up or down the screen. Or at least that's what the flickering joker seems to describe. I myself have not yet experienced this issue at all.

 

I believe the issue is hardware related because the issue is noticable in many games and systems that were not only upgraded from 4870's to 5870's but also some of the newer systems already equipped with 5870's. Though the issue is also noted in desktops, I don't think that it would be far-fetched to say that a possible bad batch of 5870's is the culprit hence the many issues that the R1's had when Dell/Alienware introduced them last year. If it is software related, I'm sure AMD/ATI-Dell/Alienware will issue a fix immediately to prevent the same chaotic mess that the R1's caused previously.

Note: I too noticed a few videos on YouTube that were dated anywhere from 4-6 months ago showing proof of the nasty flickering issues that began to plague R2's. However, a fix was issued shortly after that supposedly ceased the flickering? If I'm not mistaken, the 4870's were the gpu's being affected at that time?

 

I doubt that, they work with Vsync on, they're probably just going out of sync at higher FPS or something similar.

 

@ Lozz,

I believe that the horizontal/wavy lines that are moving up & down essentially scanning the monitor is the flickering that many are describing in this discussion. I actually saw a couple videos by Joker that showed this exact flickering dated 4-5 months ago, so I believe the issue is hardware related and that the fix that was applied was temporary until now.

 

@ Lozz,

Even during the start menu before you have the chance to change the Vsync settings the flickering starts?

I haven't experienced none of these issues with my new system and I have been playing crysis at max settings, native res for hours on end with Vsync on and off just to be sure.

 

Driver version?

 

Yes that's a better description than mine and this is exactly what i'm seeing. Could it be that the cards are outputting slightly different refresh rates than what the display was designed to do which is causing this? That would account for the v-sync thing - forcing the cards to the correct refresh rate.

 

BatBoy,

Page 3. in the middle somewheres, it was a late posting my apologies! I am on stock drivers which haven't been OC'd btw.

 

Hmm, a development... just played the Ruse demo on steam and with v-sync off i saw no flickering.
My current driver is 10.6 but still shows flickering in other games... weird.

 

Oogamar,

Do you know if majority of these games (save Crysis) rely heavily on PhysX?

 

To my knowledge none of them use the physx engine.

 

If hardware and drivers are all the same than not logical for some to have horizontal lines on every game and others never to have seen this phenomenon before. Adrianrp was going to pull the extra GPU out and Steviejones is negotiating a refund, others hardly notice it and others have never seen it before.

I am starting to wonder if some GPU's are Dells specs, AMD's specs, or possibliy someone elses specs. Maybe Dell ran out of cards and they started using ASUS cards? Why not? Why did dell have such a hard time writing the crossfire drivers anyways?

AMD just reported their earnings today and they beat analyst estimates so they must be doing something right.

I spent an hour on Sunday on chat with Dell Canada and Dell UK. Neither could explain what MLK meant. both claimed all R2 were the same yet they didn't even know what the R1 was. (lol). Have seen MLK term paired with "quicksilver" but that was on a very old press release.

Albeit Dell claims all R2's are the same that is not exactly true. Different countries have different keyboards. Also Countries like Italy, and France, and UK have different radio communication laws. "The US Federal Communications Commission allows devices with Wi-Fi capability in the US to broadcast at higher power levels than are allowed in Europe and Israel - meaning that the iPad's stronger signal could throw off other wireless connections." Maybe the MLK has a weaker wifi signal, different driver, or different version wireless card. Dell sells this product to 35 countries so not sure if we can generalize that they are 'all the same'.

iPad Banned In Israel

Keyboard drivers different, and DVD, Blue ray drivers different as they are different regions.

Different countries have different laws regarding Lead, Mercury and arsenic, cadmium, BFR's, beryllium, and PVC. This is why I wonder if different parts of the world have different specifications. California maybe be different from Mexico, vs say Germany.

 

No... The 5870's we have are special low voltage samples, and afaik, the ASUS cards are the worst of the 5870s..fat chance they'd work at 1.05V. Besides all the logistical and corporative nonsense that would prohibit even the faintest idea of that happening.

All the 1520 and 6300 wireless cards are the same, if they changed anything(which I doubt), it would be at a software level.

I'm betting it's the CF cables. Those things look very fragile and they're not protected very well, they're easy to install incorrectly..ect..

 

Saying all Alienware GPU's are the same is like saying all Xbox are the same. Xbox has changed its circuit boards numerous times. Specification subject to change without notice. Electronic specifictions change all the time. I would think modifying the voltage of one brand to work in another would be pretty easy. Most companies have a least 3 suppliers so who is to say one suppliers specs are the same as another. Everything cant be the same and yet different.

"The US Federal Communications Commission allows devices with Wi-Fi capability in the US to broadcast at higher power levels than are allowed in Europe and Israel - meaning that the iPad's stronger signal could throw off other wireless connections."

Cleary things can't be different yet the same

What is your theory Lozz why several UK posters have massive problems with horizontal lines yet others in North America have minor problems or have never seen the problem before?

 

The Dell cards are tested and certified to run @ 1.05V by AMD before being shipped to Dell.. what you suggest is nonsense. The cost to individually hand test or modify 5870's inside M17x computers would be astronomical, and then you'll have to deal with the percentage that *don't* pass the test. *Then* afaik, no one has tested an Asus card in CF, Dell waited long enough to stockpile their 5870's or fix errors before letting them become available for a reason.

again.. power levels could be adjusted at the software level. I'm not even sure if the N6300 qualifies as a high power wifi device, since the ipad is designed to be hand carried and wifi cards are generally sitting stationary in a laptop. It has 3 antennas, but that doesn't automatically mean it's high powered.

as I said before,

The fact that 2 people that happen to live in Europe have posted about the problems is meaningless. you can't take an accurate survey of the tens of thousands of units sold from 2 people. Also, there are N/A owners that have reported the issue.

 

Lozz you make me laugh, I thought you were aware there was an AMD shortage this year. No one said anything about hand testing. What I said was perhaps they used boards from multiple factories and those boards were slighly different specifications. To argue all M17x R2 GPU are the same is laughable. There are dozens of different specs of 5870 or 5770 for the desktop market. On hand you argue that generic Catalyst drivers should work on Alienware GPU than you argue that these cards are so specific that nothing short of Dells hardware specs from work, which is it?

 

where.. point me specifically where I said that please..

so you think you can automate something like this? No, you can not fyi.

no, you did not.. what you said was..

to say they're using random untested configurations is laughable. They waited X months to release these things and then they're just going to start using w/e? I don't think so.

Actually, there are only a few *manufactures* of the actual graphics cards.

you mean this?
http://news.softpedia.com/news/AMD-To-Face-Chip-Shortage-Because-of-TSMC-145961.shtml

fyi, chip shortages and then retooling/ sourcing new cards doesn't happen in 2 weeks. TSMC has been going FULL-bore on 40nm chips for months.

 

*three
*Dell offered to replace Stevies GPU's. Why would they do that if the problem were a crossfire cable?
*has anyone ever been offered a crossfire cable for a serius GPU problem on this forum?
*most modern manufactures use more than one supplier. I can't say wether Dell does or does not.

 

Dell generally throw parts at problems they dont have a fix for... that's generally my experience. Also i think the crossfire cable is attatched to the secondary gpu. Meaning they'd have to at least swap the second card

 

you're not seriously going to put faith into a phone tech support agent are you? You asked me for a guess, I gave you one, I've ripped apart and examined a M17x a few more times than the average tech support agent I would think.

 

The AMD GPU's used in Dell laptops are made by Foxconn. Dell doesn't manufacture anything nor does it take it's GPU's from anywhere else. There are not multiple specifications of the Dell 5870s, they all come from the same place built with the exact same specifications. Desktop vendors are much the same way, most use reference cards built by foxconn or another foundry and then just slap on their stickers + warranty. Some like Asus make their own PCB but the GPU core comes from the same place.

Now that we are passed that silly argument, I think what we are seeing could possibly be a crossfire bridge problem but I'm still not convinced that's the reason. I tested the same game on 4 M17x-R2's and each one had identical flickering in certain games. I checked each bridge carefully and none were damaged or installed wrong. I think this is a crossfire driver problem, these games don't have optimized crossfire settings and they cause that weird refresh rate flickering.

I also linked to two threads where people that have desktop 5870s experience the same issue and they do not use the same flimsy bridge as we do. It's a problem AMD is aware of and their ridiculous suggestions have been to flip the bridge, disable catalyst AI in CCC (which shuts off crossfire) etc. This is why I always complain about ATi drivers being subpar, they do not have the rigorous testing and robustness that their nVidia SLi counterparts do. The next Alienware DTR to have SLi nVidia will be mine and this system will be in NBR marketplace.

 

agreed, the bridge length is bad enough, at least in the 280M's it was made of flexible PCB-ish stuff, the CF cable is just bare wires that's put in 2 pieces of tape by the looks of it, *then* it's right over the cpu copper heat pipes at one point, there's no securing mechanism, lots of places for stuff to go wrong.

 

Hey Doc, back in March "India's Prime Minister, Manmohan Singh, told the Indian press that Dell chairman Michael Dell assured him that Dell was moving $25 billion in factories from China to India. Original motives were cited for environmental concerns. But later details come up as to Dell wanting a 'safer environment conductive to enterprise." Maybe they are already shifting some of that production? Irregardless whether Dell uses one factory or multiple specificaton are subject to change without notice. Why do you think Dell masters of the Universe had trouble writing a catalyst driver?

If it were simply a crossfire driver problem than the same result would be seen on all systems playing similar games. I play the same games as Stevie and I have never had a single horizontal line before. So if my GPU is the same as per your argument and the drivers are the same than the drivers also can't be different. Both Stevie and I run stock drivers.

 

10.6's work just fine.. the problem is that the device ID for the dell 5870's is different, and the CAT install manager doesn't automatically see the cards and assumes the drivers are up to date. There were documented BIOS issues(and possibly supply issues), but driver problems? None at launch besides the ones we have now that I'm aware of.

which part of 100% of the cards are made @ foxconn is confusing? There are no additional suppliers, and, (for now) all Foxconn products are made in China.

also, while pulling from these articles you're referring to, did you read far enough for this?

http://www.businessweek.com/news/20...ay-become-new-manufacturing-hub-update1-.html