Hybrid M17x: use R3 parts in a R4 motheboard

Hello all,

I have a M17x R3 since 2011, specs are the following:

Intel i7-2820QM
Chipset HM67 Sandy Bridge
Nvidia GTX 680M
17.3in WideFHD (1920 x 1080) WLED LCD
16 GB RAM DDR3-1600
240W power supply

I upgraded the RAM and the VGA in 2014 (original was a radeon HD6990, i think).

Now I am considering options for another upgrade. I see these options are very limited (basically GTX 780M + i7 2970XM). I have read in this forum that the R4 motherboard is far more upgradeable (GTX 1060, 980M... etc), my understanding is this is because it is based on Ivy Bridge architecture instead of Sandy Bridege, so I came up with an idea: why not upgrade the motherboard instead of the VGA/processor?

I have seen videos of the R4 tear down and disassembly process, it looks like the same drill as with R3. The R4 motherboard size and shape is apparently the same as the R3 motherboard. Also both chassis look the same, so it would fit perfectly. However, this could only be profitable if I can reuse most of the R3 parts in the R4 motherboard.

Particularly:

1. Obviously, I need an Ivy Bridge processor but, can I reuse the Sandy Bridge processor heatsink with an Ivy Bridge processor?
2. One of my main concerns is the R3 display assembly, is it compatible with the R4 motherboard?
3. Rest of the parts (optical drive, speakers, RAM modules, lights and buttons, wireless mini-card, bluetooth card, keyboard, cables, cords... etc). My guess is they are the same for both R3 and R4, is it right?
4. Shall I need another battery pack?

Thanks for reading.
Regards.

 

1: Heatsinks between the two are the same Dell part number, from what I can tell. (Dell P/N 0650RY) You don't need to change it.

2: With a GPU of that age, it is most likely an LVDS panel. The R4 came with a 120hz panel that was on eDP and it is primarily the most upgradable one (more steps to route the signal through integrated graphics and such on the 60hz LVDS panel). I say that because all the more modern MXM gpus are in the eDP format. If your old system is set up for LVDS, and the new motherboard can be set up with LVDS, the panel should work just fine.

3: I'd suggest looking up parts on eBay for specific pictures of them and visible model numbers for both the R3 and R4, see if you can corroborate the Dell P/Ns somewhere else, and see if they match. If they LOOK the same and the Dell P/Ns match, you are probably good to go.

4: A quick lookup finds a battery (type BTYVOY1) listed as compatible with the R3 and the R4. The actual Dell P/N seems to be different between the batteries for the R3 and R4, but the physical shape, connectors, and capacity is the same for the R3 and R4.

 

You don't need an Ivy Bridge processor. You can reuse your 2960xm in an R4. I'm not sure what you're gaining by the R3 to R4 switch. I am unaware of the R4 having any improved compatibility over the R3. Where are you seeing that it does?

 

You can use same display but the "Alienware" text light uses a different connector so it won't light up.

You can use same processor perfectly fine.

Same with battery.

You can even reuse heatsinks.

R3 MB supports up to 780M/880M max.

R4 MB supports up to 1070 in SG (60Hz) or PEG (120Hz). It can also support whatever GPU is available in the future. For instance, I have RTX 3000 working in M18xR2, so you should be able to also run RTX 3000 in SG (60Hz) on a R4 motherboard.

 

Really? I had no idea about this one. Seems strange that they would change this insignificant part between models. I'm going to have to check the M18x R1 and R2 I have to see

 

Technically the keyboards are different but it's still not 100% known about full compatibility. The R4 keyboards have a green ribbon cable and the R3's have a blue one (I think I'm getting that right). I have heard stories that putting the other one in will work for a period of time but then everything goes screwy. I can confirm that they will work between models but I haven't tested them to see how they go long term. Maybe the people saying they had issues just had faulty replacements.
The R4 also supports up to 2133ghz DDR3L memory and has the mSata SSD slot.

 

Many thanks to all of you for your feedback, things are much clearer for me now.

Thanks for the tip on the Ivy Bridge processor, now I see on the R4 specs that in fact both i7 2n and 3rd are supported. This is an unexpected bonus.

Regarding the display assy, I am sure it is a LVDS 60 Hz. There are lots of stickers with Dell P/Ns: 0H4T5C is for the frame subassy, 8VCV1F is for the LCD panel and 00FKCP I think is the P/N for the complete display assy.

Sorry, I'm not sure if I understood well your infos regarding LVDS vs eDP displays. If I understood well, LVDS are 60 Hz displays whereas eDP are 120 Hz. How is this related to the GPU connected? I have been using my 680M in the R3 MB + LVDS display. The only issue has been switchable graphics didn't worked anymore in Windows, I had to change it manually in the BIOS (SG for HD 300 graphics and PEG for 680M). But, since the display is LVDS, I guess the 680M was working at 60 Hz when PEG option in the BIOS, is that right?

Yes, I noticed the mSata port in a dissasembly video I saw. I was now aware of this because it does not appear in the R4 service manual, looks like Dell reused the R3 MB photos for this manual...

I think it would it be necessary to upgrade the power supply (current is 240W) to run 980M, 1070 or RTX 3000 on a R4 MB? Is that right?

My understanding is R3 MB is limited to 880M/2960XM whereas R4 supports even 1070 (at least, that is what I've read in this forum). I never knew the reason for this, I suppose it is because R3 is Sandy-Bridge-based whereas R4 is Ivy-Bridge-based. It is the only difference I see, since both systems seem quite similar for me. In any case, I have using the R3 with a 680M during the past years and, if you know how to mod the Nvidia drivers, it is still a very good combination with acceptable performance (for my standards). I was playing Doom Eternal some months ago (just needed modding the Nvidia 445.75 drivers) with fair enough performance for my standards. That's outstanding for a rig bought 10 years ago.

 

On these PARTICULAR models of laptops, as in, the Alienware M17x R3 and R4 and these models only, you can say that rule applies. If the laptop is in factory spec, meaning it doesn't have some sort of crazy panel swap, yes. A 60hz panel is LVDS, and the 120hz panel is eDP. I want to be explicit that this rule you have made -ONLY- applies to these 2 models. With literally any other model of laptop, disregard this rule!

240W is OK for the 980m and the 1070, from all I have read. Some people do the power trick and get a 330W brick, but others swear up and down that the 1070 won't tap out a 240W.

As for the bolded, it isn't that simple. The R4 DID come with a 60hz LVDS panel, but it also came with a 120hz eDP panel. The reason this distinction is important is because this is the difference you aren't seeing. It's all about the MXM GPU you are trying to stuff into the laptop: Some output with only an LVDS signal, some output with only an eDP signal, and some can output with both. Some MXM GPUs can be changed to output to a different output-standard if (and only if) a vBIOS exists for said MXM GPU from a laptop that is known to have the different output-standard in a factory configuration. If not, which seems to be the case for the Pascal GTX 10X0 cards, they must be installed on an eDP panel!

Now the fun part: Some GPUs are not found in any panel/motherboard configuration in any output-standard other than eDP, starting with most notably the Pascal (GTX 10X0) GPU series. This is the main problem. If the MXM GPU outputs to eDP and the laptop is configured for LVDS, some motherboards can route the display signal through the CPU's integrated graphics with some laptop voodoo, using the MXM GPU as a graphics accelerator, and if I understand it correctly it has something to do with Nvidia Optimus support at the motherboard level.

 

240w is fine. Single GPU works with 240w.

As for display, LVDS is 60Hz and in SG mode you can run whatever GPU you want. You can try finding a cheap 3820QM/3840QM just to get a tiny bit more performance and it can OC a bit as well.

 

240W is ok for a 980m as long as you leave it at the default power limit and don't overclock the CPU a lot. You'll need a 330W if ya really wanna push things though, especially if you wanna keep using the sandy bridge CPU. While almost as fast as ivy bridge, they use a lot more power.

ssj92 is correct, the R4 does have more GPU support. The issue is more that it's an updated platform with a updated BIOS, and not that it uses Ivy Bridge.

 

It is almost impossible to replace the actual panel in the M17x. It is glued onto the front plexiglass which is very fragile when you try to pry it away from the panel. If you want to replace your display then you really need to get the whole assembly. Just remember that the cables are also different between the LVDS and eDP panels.
To get the switchable graphics to work again you need to reinstall the Alienware OSD driver. Windows 10 will not auto-install this driver.

 

There is a third as the 17 R1 also had these two options

 

Dear all,

Thanks for the feedback, topics are clearer for me now. All in all, I think there are the following options:

1. Keep the R3 and push it to its upgrade limits: high-end kepler GPU and high-end i7 2nd generation. Cheapest option, but no more upgrades are going to be possible in the future. Also, I'm not sure if it is going to make any significant difference with regards to what I have now. Maybe it's better to save the money for a new laptop in the future.
   
2. Move to R4 MB (~200$) + maxwell GPU (~500$), keeping the sandy bridge processor and the LVDS display. Pros: I can keep the processor and the power supply, normally I won't do overclocking. However, there is another point, I have read in the forum that maxwell GPUs only supports UEFI, this means I would have to move to Windows 10 (I'm still in WIndows 7 for my production tools, I'm a laggard lol). With the R4 MB I would keep upgrade options in the future though.
   
3. Move to R4 (~200$) + pascal GPU (~600$) + eDP display (price still unknown). This is the most expensive option. Not sure of investing 800+$ at this point. Also, pascal GPUs only supports UEFI.

Time to assess the options! If I could find cheap spares maybe I could take the plune, why not.

One last question:

Does this mean that if R3 BIOS were update (not really sure if this can be done and by whom) the MB could support as many GPUs as the R4?


Thanks,
Regards.

 

Honestly, selling the laptop and putting the money into a newer machine is probably the best use of your money.......but that really isn't the point of it for a lot of us. We love these older laptops and some of us are willing to put silly amounts of money into keeping them alive and thriving.
If you're going to continue to use it for gaming then your Option 1 isn't a good idea.
A 980M should not cost you anywhere near $500. You should be able to pick one up for $250-300 and a 1070 should be around $400-450. Yes, the 900 series MUST have UEFI enabled. While this was also considered the same for the 10 series, a few people have said that this isn't the case and Legacy is possible.

Personally I wouldn't bother with the R3 to R4 board swap. Sell the R3 and buy an R4 with the 120hz display already fitted. I think this will be much cheaper than trying to upgrade the R3.

The R3 BIOS cannot be updated to support more recent GPU's. People have tried but have not succeeded, yet.

 

Going to a 780m or 880m from a 680m is definitely not worth it. I'd either buy nothing, get the R4 and a 970m or 980m, or just get a new laptop.

I'm not sure what the UEFI restrictions are. I have heard of Dell users having to jump through weird hoops to get cards to run. I have been able to run 9, 10, and 20 series cards with UEFI disabled on Win7 on a Clevo, but I would not be surprised if Dell systems could not do that, or even later Clevo systems.

In theory yes the R3 just needs a bios update. That is absolutely never going to happen though by Dell or a modder.

 

Easiest way to do this...

Get the R4 motherboard and reuse ALL parts from your R3.

Get the R4 unlocked BIOS, set to SG graphics and load legacy ROM so you can use windows 7.

Get a 1070 MXM for $500: https://www.ebay.com/itm/164357449828?hash=item264477a864:g:LzwAAOSwWSVeFdFU

OR get a used Quadro P4000 for $200 which performs around 1060 level: https://www.ebay.com/itm/402159522478?hash=item5da29352ae:g:juwAAOSwOWBe0C2X

R4 MB + P4000 is the most cost effective way and will be faster than even 980M.

 

Hi there,
Investigating these topics I found some infos for which I'd like to have your opinion.

I asked a local HW dealer and they told me a 1070 will "bottleneck the CPU". The CPU is a i7-2820QM. Does that make sense for you? They told me a 1050 would make the system more balanced. I'd like to know your opinion on this.

Also, do you think a 1050 will perform better than a 980M?

I found several how-to's and tutorials on how to install Windows 7 in UEFI mode. Apparently it is possible (I didn't check it myself though). If that's possible I think the issue related to Windows 7 and UEFI could be closed.

I followed the link to eBay you provided and the seller says in item description: "Quadro P4000 MXM supports DisplayPort, HDMI, eDP, DVI, but does not support LVDS and VGA display."
According to this the card will not work in my system considering I have a LVDS display. Maybe setting the BIOS to SG will trick the card to route through LVDS?


Final question, how do you know if a card model supports BIOS/UEFI/both and eDP/LVDS output? Usually I cannot find this info in manufacturers specs.


Thanks!
Regards!

 

You can't even buy a 1050 so that's a fundamental problem. Maybe he meant a 1060?

A 1070 will be bottlenecked a good chunk by the 2820. You can overclock it by 400 MHz, but it will be held back by its 45W power limit. I was first thinking you had a 2960, which is a good chunk stronger due with no overclocking limit and removable power limit.

CPU bottlenecking doesn't make weaker cards outperform stronger cards. It just limits the stronger cards more.