M17X R3 + GTX 580M - Random Lag's - Help

Since I got my alienware m17x r3, I suffer with lag during games, when I start playing everything is normal with high SPF, but after about 5 minutes playing, comes the lag, the fps drops sharply, and after 1 minute , rises again, after more than five minutes, drops again, and so on.Does anyone have the same problem and managed to solve it?

My Config is :

Alienware M17x R3
Core i7 2630QM
8GB Ddr3 1600Mhz
Seagate Momentus XT Hybrid SSD HD 500GB
Display Full Hd (1920X1080) 120Hz # 3d

I saw people with the same problem, so I believe that hardware is not because there are people with ATI video cards with the same problem but with no apparent resolution ..

Thank you all.

 

What i saw in forum before, that is due to gpu throtthling..maybe ur graphic card have reached its limit temp..like mine, when my temp reach 78celcius, it will start lagging..and the temp will decrease greatly till 62celcius..then it will happen again..

 

That is throttling, and you should do a search before posting. Anyways the fix is in my sig. It is fairly straight forward

 

Maybe I'm seeing this the wrong way. But isn't it very strange/wrong Dell sells the m17x with the 580m that doesn't work properly out of the box? When you buy a new machine it should work flawless without any tweaking in my opinion. Personally I don't mind a little tweaking to make it work. But a lot of people don't even think about going to forums like these.

Or do most gtx580m cards work like they should out of the box and only a small percentage suffer from throttling?

 

A small percentage suffer from throttling at stock clocks. This is likely that the card draws more power than Dell would like them to. Kinda pooey really. Dell just want to cover their backsides in terms of replacing GPUs. That's why they've implemented level 2 throttling when the card hits 78C, this applies to every card.

This isn't the first time it has happened either.

 

in this case just follow the information in your signature 580m "GTX throttling fix ver.2" and ready?

I also do not care settings, as long as it works

 

ok, I will proceed with the tests and post feedback

 

This actually irks me more than a little. Dell have fitted a great graphics card in the 580m and then put throttling limits on it. It is like Ferrai fitting a V12 to a car and then fitting a rev limiter that cuts in a 4,000 rpm and a speed limiter that cuts in at 120 klm / hr......... because they don't want us to hurt ourselves

 

It is really annoying, honestly I wish I had just got the 6990m. The 580m seems to have consistent and annoying problems. You can't just pull out your laptop and game because it will hit the 77c throttle. You have to raise the back and set it up and blah blah. Then Optimus causes BSODs and other problems. I am sure the 6990m has problems also, but I think I would rather have driver install issues and a solid card, rather than 2 levels of throttle and instability.

 

Couldn't agree more. The intentional, undisclosed crippling of 580M performance amounts to customer abuse, if not consumer fraud. One can at least understand a theoretical protective purpose for the high throttle at or near 78C, recognizing that the trigger point is ridiculously timid and should be set not lower than 90C, but the low throttle in the mid-60C's included in BIOS A08 is a monument to stupidity and indifference to customer use and satisfaction, a typical Dell SNAFU. It's embarassing -- and dishonest. Thank goodness for A04.

 

Really it should be no throttle until 77, then the P1 throttle at 77 (so it just lowers the clock and voltage a small amount), and then an emergency throttle at like 85-90 that goes to P8 and drops performance off a cliff.

I don't know if I will keep mine, the 580m just seems to have problems, we shall see. I got the 580m because I like the idea of Optimus (not so much the execution) and I wanted the verde drivers. However, with the crippled performance the 580m seems like it is significantly slower than a 6990m and has so many more usage problems.

Anyone know if they will just send me a 6990m GPU and the heatsink to go with it and let me (or a tech) swap it out but keep this laptop? I already asked about an exchange but they said an exchange was for the EXACT same system, and if I wanted to change a part it would need to be a return, which would be long and annoying.

 

Switching between 6990M and HD 3000 is done with 1 button, manually. It doesn't get better than that tbh

The only thing that 580M shines in is GPU benchmarks when overvolted.. which is nice for <1% of M17x R3 owners, who are truly pros in what they do with it.

 

Seriously though, I can understand the frustration for the power cripple but I everything can be fixed. I use a good paste job and lift the back. With my throttling fix. The initial throttle can be prevented and the higher throttle can be avoided by managing temperatures. It is a one time fix, it's not like you will be needing to do this for the rest of your life everytime you restart. My system with a 580m never runs into throttling because I've applied one fix and tried to maintain the temperatures.

This is not the right place to bicker about something that doesn't "sort of " work. If you have a problem, tell us about it and and it may get fixed and it has got fixed to an extent. Don't go on about how it has ruined your life and put it on every thread that asks about this problem. If it really bothers you, take it up with Dell. You are just putting people off a good system.

@GeoCake you make a nice point that AMD users have more control over the GPU switching

 

To some extent that is exactly what I am trying to do, before I purchased my M17x R3 I did not really realize the problems the 580m has, I thought it would be a simple vBios flash and voila everything is awesome. In reality it is a vBios flash, take the laptop apart and repaste, set it up on little feet every time to play a game, and pray that it doesn't hit 77c (and then I still have problems with BSODs when I keep my laptop cool, almost certainly related to me trying to bypass the power throttle). It is also portrayed as the fastest GPU, and I knew it used to be an expensive upgrade, but what I didn't know is that it won't actually run stable at full speed stock settings, so while it might be faster in tests, it is probably slower in real world performance unless you coddle it constantly.

I really wish when I was hanging around these forums before my purchase that someone had laid it out, and said quite simply, GET THE 6990m FOR THE LOVE OF GOD!!! Contacting Dell is not exactly helpful, it is working as intended for them when it drops performance by 30% at 63C, and if they find out you have circumvented that they might just void your warranty.

Anyway, maybe this isn't the perfect thread, but one guy made a comment, I agreed, someone else added to it, and in the end the whole discussion is relevant to what the topic creator posted (He thought the AMD card did it as well, it doesn't the AMD has no throttles at all). We all have these problems, and many of us are not satisfied.

 

Very well then. I'm not saying that your comments aren't useful or relevant of course they are.

I've bypassed the throttle using many different methods and I've never got BSODs. My point is that the fix is a one time job. A simple vbios flash, repaste and place your laptop on a book. Done.

It is still the fastest notebook GPU. All I'm saying that I don't want people who don't have the whole facts to get put off of getting the 580m. It is up to them to decide with a few fixes for the correct performance is worth the hassle. Plus getting the 6990m doesn't solve everything. I needed the nvidia card for a lot of the stuff I do including the CUDA app I'm current writing.

 

@Yoda If I lived close to you we coulda done a swap and compared, but yeah not gonna happen

Maybe you know someone who has a 6990M and willing to swap for a week or something hehe

 

Well right now they are building me a new unit for exchange since this one has issues, sadly, with exchange they refuse to change any parts at all, you get the EXACT same unit so I will get another 580m. Maybe it will work better, if not I will probably push for them to send me a 6990m and the related heatsink to install in this new unit. If they won't do that I will probably just return the whole mess.

 

that sucks, Hope this gets all straightened out dude. if you try to push for a 6990m, tell them that if you don't get your system fixed, your going to return the system and take your business else where, they should be very accommodating then.

 

Guys, the easiest, most effective fix for power throttling for systems without 3D is to flash the A04 system BIOS. That's all it takes. If you have 3D, flash A04 and then do a blind flash to A08, as described in detail in earlier threads. Either method completely eliminates the low throttle (63C +/-).

 

Using that method does it always stay in P0 or whatever the highest power state is? It never uses P1 at all?

I actually tried the A04 method first, but maybe did it wrong because I still had throttling.

 

Mine theoretically uses it, but in practice it never does. For example, at the beginning of second test (New Calico) in Vantage when it's loading, it will kick down to 475 for a time, but then return to P0 clocks at launch. However, at 78C (depending upon the vbios version), it kicks down hard, apparently going straight through P1 down to P8. For benching purposes, that kick down destroys the run, so I haven't paid that much attention. In gaming, I never hit 78C, so the issue has not revealed itself. The A04 flash only fixes the power throttle; it has no effect upon the temp throttle.

 

That sounds good, it is using P1 as it is meant to me used (when you are not stressing the card, don't need full power).

What do you mean about depending on the vBios version? What differences have you found?

And just so I am clear, you used the modded A04 by Ahmed, then blind flashed to A08, and you got this behavior? I tried the guide here that says you can use the Dell A04, but I still had throttling.

 

No blind flashing from ordinary A04 is fine also. That's what I did. I think that eliminates P1 until you hit the 78C mark then it jumps to P8 anyways. It still doesn't totally fix it. The effect is the same as my vbios method.

Blind flashing does not remove throttling completely. The higher throttle is still there but the initial one is totally gone.

So @Yoda if you can't seem to keep your temps under 78C then perhaps the 580m is really not for you and you should go ahead with the 6990m

 

I'm using the unlocked version of A04 alone, not blind flashing to A08, but stock A04 works just as well. I use the unlocked version to have access to the additional BIOS options (same options available via unlocked A08).

 

A04 bios, unlocked or not does not allow 3D for those who use it.

 

I agree and said so in the previous post.

 

Since the vBIOS is the same on the 580M for the M17xR3 and M18x, there must be something slightly different about the system BIOS used in the M18x because the second (temp) throttle trigger point on the M17xR3 simply does not exist. I can run my card temps higher than I would ever want them to go and the cards never throttle.

 

That's precisely what is needed for the R3. Where is the single throttle point in the M18x?

 

@Mr. Fox you are correct the second throttle in the M17x R3 is in the system bios. That's why no one can touch it and do something about it.

On another note, are M18x users able to do a blind flash? Could users for example flash a system bios from before the 580m's release then blind flash to the current bios to remove throttling that way?

 

I wonder if someone who does bios mods could make a kind of hybrid M17x bios using the M18x bios and manage to get rid of the 77C throttle. It should be possible, as the throttle would just be in one of the bios packages. Just swap that package in the M17x bios with the similar one in the M18x bios.

I would pay good money for a such a bios.

 

Hey Yoda, there is one of these bioses floating around actually. It is an actual convert of the M18x bios. However after initial tests, it was throwing BSODs all over the place. You are welcome to try:
M17x r3 unlocked BIOS for 2920xm overclocking [BIOS works, untested with XM CPU]

PS This was the time when we thought that the XM CPUs were lock in the R3's (we were wrong)

 

Yes, there is a link in my signature explaining how to do that. You use the eSATA/USB combo port. I have done it before. This is not necessary on the M18x. (See comments below.)

The stock Dell A04 and A05 BIOS for the M18x has no secondary throttling like the M17xR3. A03 and earlier DOES have the exact same throttling as the R3. Someone like TheWiz at BIOS-MODS or one of the wizards at MVKTECH.NET might be able to compare the two and identify what is broken in the M17x R3 BIOS. Or, better yet, see if Dell-Bill_B will take the lead in fixing it like they did for the M18x. There is no reason why Dell shouldn't fix this for R3 owners.

 

If they would have let me I would have swapped for the 6990m in my exchange unit, I am just tired of dealing with the 580m problems. Who knows though, maybe my new 580m unit will not have the same issues. Keeping the temps low is not the issue for me, the issue is that if I keep them low it BSODs and if I don't then it throttle. It is simply unusable either way.

That is sorta what I want, except rather than a full M18x convert to M17x, I just want the power management package from the M18x put in the M17x bios. I have no doubt a full convert would cause BSODs, the M17x is different enough. However, just swapping a single package should be do-able, and then you still have the M17x bios as the base.

Wish the contact information for the actual creator was available, I would offer him some money to make me a modified M17x bios with the 77c throttle removed by swapping packages with the M18x bios.

 

I have pushed my GTX 580M SLI setup beyond 86°C with zero evidence of throttling. This is with the Dell vBIOS and Dell A05 BIOS. I can run Furmark without issue. So, bottom line is, Dell should fix your R3 system BIOS so that the thing works properly. Whatever they did for the A04 and A05 M18x BIOS, they should do for you guys. Look at the video...

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That is what I want!

Should I just PM Dell-Bill_B? Or is there some other method that would be better to get this ball rolling. If you know him maybe you could bring this to his attention (he might pay more attention to you than me), he can feel free to just read this or any of the other related threads, or PM people for information.

They clearly already have the other package built, if you know which package it is then this is literally a 3 second job to swap them out in the bios and the M17x R3 would be fixed.

I have heard Dell is working on an A10 bios to fix the SATA speed issue, maybe they could fix this awful throttling at the same time. It doesn't even need to be removed, just raise it to a normal level so it throttles hard at 87c, that would avoid damage to the GPU but not impact the users. Sadly, I feel like the R3 is quickly approaching the end of its updates, so if we don't get them to do it soon they likely never will.

EDIT: If you or anyone knows someone that could make the bios mod then I would like to talk to them. I will pay for a working modded M17x R3 bios with the 77c throttle removed. They should be able to do it easy enough looking at what packages Dell changed in the M18x A03 to A04 bios, then just swap the packages into the M17x R3 bios A08 and everything is fixed.

 

That looks good Anyways I urge all others who have the 78C throttle to pursue this. My GPU doesn't reach that high but to all others this looks like a good way of getting things fixed for good.

 

No, you go ahead and send him a PM with a link to this thread. Bill's an awesome guy. You can also copy AW-FedericoH on your message to Bill. Federico works in support and he is a new member here at NBR. He is here to watch the threads, learn from us and provide whatever support he can. This sort of problem would be something I think he would care about. If few people have created a ruckus about it, it's no wonder it's not fixed yet.

My 580M's never get that warm, even under the most demanding gaming situations. Using Furmark was a one-time test to confirm the throttling was fixed. I have no use for Furmark otherwise and I do not recommend that any AMD or NVIDIA owners use this brutal program. If you do, watch the temps like a hawk and kill the thing at the first sign of trouble.

Even in heavy gaming my 580M SLI setup is in the 73°C-75°C, with an occasional peak to 78°C or 79°C (which is still 100% safe). There is no good reason for a 78°C throttle trigger to exist.

 

The worst part is that the M17x has 2 throttles if you don't modify your system. The first is at 63°C, which is just stupid, the fans barely kick on and our cards are already being throttled to lose like 30% performance. Then at 77°C they just die completely. 77°C is just low enough that you can hit it during normal gaming even using the stock vBios which is throttling at 63°C already. If they just raised all the throttles 10°C then it wouldn't be a problem anymore.

I have sent Bill and Federico a PM so hopefully they will get behind this issue and get it fixed with the next system bios. This is just such a common issue, there are threads daily on it, and really the vBios modification just isn't a good solution. You do the vBios fix just to make the cards usable above 63°C and then you still have to contend with the cards basically shutting off at 77°C. When you buy a brand new laptop you should not need to modify it, even take it apart, and probably void your warranty just to be able to use it normally.

 

M18x had the exact same problem before they fixed it. If you go back to the A00-A03 versions the problem will return. It should be an easy fix for them.

 

seems that the problem was resolved, however, when I'm playing crysis 2 for example, or assassins creed revelations, even on average graphics, runs at only 20 FPS - 25 FPS, which is what is happening?


Edit : in this test , the 3d vision is off!

 

That sounds like the 63 degree throttle, it cuts your GPU speed by a lot, so you will get be getting poor performance. Did you do the vBios flash in Widezu's signature?

 

yes i do the vbios flash ...

I want to know is if I need to make any adjustments before you quit playing .. Or set the Nvidia control panel? Or other configurations..

 

When I get my R3, the first thing I'm gonna check is if it throttles. If the R3 throttles at 63 degrees I will use Widezu69's fix. Then if I can run any benchmark, game and furmark while staying below 77-78 degrees it's fine for me. If not I will send it back and get one with the HD 6990m.

Ofcourse I will use something similar to the 'bookmod,' and maybe in the future a repastejob. But I'm simply not going to keep it if it hit's the 78 degrees throttle out of the box. It even should be able to handle a little oc'ing.

I'm not worried about it not working, but I think this is just a fair expectation it should live up to.

 

Well .. My gtx 580m is at about 78 ° C but what I want to know is .. The performance is correct? Or should I do some extra configuration (nvidia control panel)? Upgrading to bios A09?

Sent from my GT-I9000 using Tapatalk

 

This has me a little concerned, I just placed an order for an R3 with the 580m in it from out here in Afghanistan where I'm deployed. Assuming that it's going to have the lag issue due to throttling, I am not going to have a good enough internet connection to download and save the files listed in the other posters "fix".

I know there are Dell reps that surf this area, have any of them given a reasonable explanation as to why their company would sell an expensive gaming laptop that is advertised as such while knowing that it won't perform to the level expected of an Alienware product? I think it's borderline ridiculous that I should pay in excess of $2000 for a gaming laptop and then have to "fix" it in order to use the damned thing. Had I read this forum prior to making the purchase I'd have ordered the 6990m but all reviews I read said the 580m was the card to have in this machine.

 

This was basically my expectation, but at least my machine totally failed. Out of the box even without fixing the 63c throttle benchmarks would cause it to hit the 77c cut-off. That means even reducing the speed of the card like 30% at 63c it would still hit 77c. After you fix the 63c throttle (because really absolutely anything causes it to hit that throttle, which makes it 30% slower than a 6990m) then it just hits 77c that much faster. I have not done a repaste, but I do have my laptop elevated.

That is your problem then, A09 actually decreases performance so don't bother. You are hitting the 77c throttle and it is basically reducing your GPU speed to idle speeds. You can try to elevate your laptop, but if you cannot keep the temps below 77c then games will be basically unplayable.

I am in the same boat, almost everything on the internet says get the 580m. Most people on this forum, at least when I was buying, said get the 580m. Without modification your laptop will essentially always run 30% slower because of the 63c throttle. In other words the 580m will always be 30% slower than a 6990m in games. I suspect your ambient temp is pretty high, so you will likely also hit the 77c throttle which will make games unplayable.

I have sent a PM to several Dell reps on this board, hopefully they will give some sort of response next week. The M18x had the exact same problem and Alienware fixed it, so it is certainly possible. It also proves that the 580m can handle the higher temps (since they run hotter on the M18x), and we know from the 6990m that the M17x can handle higher temps. There is just no reason or argument for leaving these throttles in place.

I will be sure to post in this thread when/if the Dell reps respond. If they say they do not plan to fix these issues then at least we will all know to return our machines and get the 6990m. If they say they will fix it hopefully they can provide some approximate timeline. Since they clearly already have the bios modules built for the M18x that remove this throttle fixing our bios is a 30 minute job, it just comes down to if they are willing to do it.

I guess if they say the issue will never be fixed we should really make a thread in this forum warning people about the 580m. I know a ton of people just like me have purchased the 580m not really understanding the extent of the problems (I thought a quick vBios flash would fix it) and now we are having to get it resolved which is actually quite hard. So far the story they have told me is I would need to return my laptop for a refund, wait up to 30 days for that refund to post, then re-order a new one with 6990m and wait another like 20+ days for it to be built and sent to me.

 

but I do not upgrade to the A09 bios, now I have the A08 bios, the question is, if the performance of a GTX 580M is this really? Or they had to configure something in the nvidia control panel? What did you do to get better results? I just updated the VBIOS and raise the laptop for better air circulation ... I will test again and post here ..

 

Don't upgrade the bios, the only thing you can do is keep your temps below 77c. Elevate the laptop, watch the temps, you need them to stay below 77c. I haven't tried those games but most modern games should run in 1080P in all high or max settings with 30+ FPS.

 

I'll need a base coolers? I've done so far has been raising the notebook using rubbers.

 

Coolers really don't help much if at all, just make sure to raise the back at least an inch so it can get plenty of airflow and then test it.

What is the ambient temperature where you are testing?