M17x R2 SSD speed issue - Investigation and Discussion

StamatisX has compiled quite a bit of data documenting a difference in SSD performance (specifically, 4k read/write speeds) between the M17xR1 and the M17xR2.

From what I have gathered looking over the information he posted, there appears to be a standing issue with the Intel Chipset. Now, I have not performed any in-depth review of his information or the info in other threads however I know this is point of discussion for many of you. As it should be...

The purpose of this thread is to provide a common discussion area for M17xR2 owners concerning this SSD issue. It will remain in sticky status for the time being to help provide a bit more visibility.

Stamatisx's post over @ storagereview.com is an excellent read -

Please take a moment to check it if you have not already done so.
http://www.storagereview.com/how_improve_low_ssd_performance_intel_series_5_chipset_environments

In addition, there is a common discussion going on in the NBR Hardware section as it is impacting other notebooks as well. See:
http://forum.notebookreview.com/har...et-can-not-take-full-advantage-fast-ssds.html

Finally, please take a moment and review StamatisX's post on the Dell Community forum.
http://en.community.dell.com/support-forums/laptop/f/3518/t/19340601.aspx

----------------------

Brian, our resident AW rep has posted this concerning the SSD issue:

 

Many thanks Batboy, really appreciated your effort to collect all this info into one post. I hope this issue will receive the same attention as the rest of the issues.
Just a heads up, Phil decided to split the original thread and opened a new one concerning the suggested tweaks here:
http://forum.notebookreview.com/har...rformance-intel-series-5-stamatisx-tweak.html

 

Thanks for posting the updated thread Phil created. To be honest, I'm more concerned with an official fix rather than a tweak to resolve this.

With that said, moving forward, any discussions pertaining to the tweak and Phil's thread, please discuss there:
http://forum.notebookreview.com/har...rformance-intel-series-5-stamatisx-tweak.html

Please continue to post data, benchmarks, new info on the issue here as it will help in understanding how this specific issue manifests itself on the 17xR2.

Thanks!

 

I am really hoping for an official solution, those tweaks are meant to be used temporarily and should not be considered as final.

Thank you for making this clear on your post

 

Hey Stamatisx I have tried your tweaks on my M17x R2 and i lose turbo boost completely. Are you losing turbo on your M17x R2 as well?

 

Hey Sean, I have full turbo boost after the tweak but I am on A07 BIOS and I have an extreme CPU on. For the time being you have three options, try to experiment with JJB's tweak and see if you can get good results, the other is to upgrade to an extreme CPU or wait till the give us the option to deactivate the CPU C states in the BIOS like the MSI guys have.

 

I gotta say, paying $450 for my Intel SSD and not getting 1/2 it's performance because of the lack of a C-states disable switch in the bios SUCKS! Dell needs to get on the ball with this and do what MSI did and let us toggle it off.

 

That's right Joker, and I am pretty sure they can do much better than simply gives us the option to disable C states, they just have to contact Intel and short things out and ask for their help if they don't have someone with that kind of expertise. I don't really understand what's all that delay for.

 

Engineer time is very valuable and they are stretched to the limit guys, cmon.

They have to keep up to date with facebook, for example. Also, minecraft and neptunes pride are very important. Plus there is the internal ego stroking, artificially delaying all work so management thinks your job is a lot harder than it is... etc etc etc.

You guys know how it is, give em a break!

-Ash

 

Lemme see if I got this straight or at least layman terms straight. The C states deactivation toggle is a potential Dell fix until the cpu, once triggered by the SSD, can respond and change its state at almost the same rate as the SSD or at least faster than the 1ms it now takes?
Am I close?
Great work Stamatisx!! Way to keep the engineers on their toes.
Thank you Batboy for putting it all together and the sticky.
Ash - roflmao - bravo

 

I am running bios A05 and my benchmarks show my drives are running at stated specs. Is this issue supposed to be present in A05?

 

Only R2s are affected, you have the R1 so don't worry

 

Yeah, would love a layman's explanation. I'm only a software developer.

 

I have the R2 in my sig on A05.

 

My bad, I only saw your R1, the low SSD performance is present in all BIOS revisions so far. How did you check the performance of your drives?

 

No news = bad news.
I so wish there was just a trickle of info leaking out to give us a smattering of hope that they are close to a resolution on this issue.

 

Infernia, not to sound pessimistic but something tells me that we won't listen to anything special either in the near or in the distant future...

 

My test result for intel x25-E 160GB Gen2 - i did a new install with no tweaks i only used the intel toolbox.

I have m17x-R2 - 920xm - 8 gb

The slower benchmark is my 750GB drive.

Sad.....

 

Arcorl, your drive is also only 18% full. You can expect those numbers to be the peak that you will ever see without a real fix.

In fact, your untweaked 4k r/w numbers are almost the same as my tweaked numbers with a 66% full drive.

To compare, without any tweaks (basically the same as your configuration), but with a 66% full drive, I lose at least 30% performance.

 

Well... my scores with my two SSD 250 GB drives were pretty much the same as everyone elses here. I put in two 500GB Drives yesterday with a Clean Install of Win 7 64 Bit Ultimate. My M17XR2 also has Version 9 of the Bios along with the VBios and the Latest Video Driver. With these standard 7200 RPM Drives... My scores are attached below. This system is such a dog compared to my M17XR1.

I am totally unable to do multi-track audio recording with more than 20 tracks at once and I am unable to edit HD video on this M17XR2. (with my R1 I can do over 50 Tracks at once of a live Recording without any issues)

After a month and a half of testing, tweeking and replacing parts on this M17XR2... I think it is really safe to say that there is a problem with the chipset. (The Chipset Driver hasn't been updated on Dell's Site since January!~) (so far on this system we have replaced the Mother Board, Both SSD Drives with other SSD Drives, the PCI Card Slot as well as even put in Standard Disk Drives.

I hope they can concentrate on this issue now that they have "seemed" to of fixed the Video issue.

Is anyone outthere using a M17XR2 for Multi-Track audio recording and HD Video editing?

 

Why aren't you using the newest chipset drivers from the Intel site? I don't know that you will have any different results, but I never use Dell's old chipset drivers.

 

Achilleus,
are you using the Intel Chipset drivers becuase of yoiur raid setup? I have a non-raid setup with the same SSD, and OCZ says to use the MS driver, whats your thoughts?

 

On the OCZ forums for the Vertex 2, it says you are supposed to use the IRST (Intel Rapid Storage Technology) software/drivers from the intel site. It's for non-raid and raided drives. It installs all the correct chipset drivers for non-raid and raid. It also has a management console utility. You may want to do some reading on their forums because you got some bad info there.

 

Achilleus, can you link that forum post on OCZ forum?

At the time of Vertex (the first version), OCZ strongly advised against the Intel Rapid Storage Driver. I wonder what made them change on Vertex 2.

 

I got my inforamtion right off OCZ Vertex 2 site, but your right maybe its outdated. I guess I will switch to the Intel Drivers.

 

Guide If using an Intel chipset based system please use the newest Intel chipset drivers for Vertex LE, vertex2 and Agility2

Here's the link. The Vertex 2 uses a completely different controller than the original Vertex. It's a Sandforce controller. People have reported better performance with the Intel drivers for this controller. There are actually many threads on it, but this is the sticky from their forum.

 

Thank you so much, +rep to you for your research

 

Hi there! I'm a SSD noob and

I'm looking into upgrading my R2 with an SSD. And I'm looking at either solution:

- 64GB Kingston: Great reviews. Lots of users. Better capacity but lower performance.

- 40GB OWC: Destroy the Kingston performance wise. Sandforce and etc... Only 40GB.

If it's on another machine I would go with the OWC without a doubt. But since R2 is having problem regarding SSD I don't know if the performance gap between those two can be seen in my laptop. Which one would you recommend?

Thanks

 

Guys on request, this thread is very specific and concerns the low 4K random reads and writes performance of SSDs when installed on an Alienware M17x R2.

This issue doesn't concern the sequential reads and writes or RAIDed/unRAIDed performance in general and is not driver related.
For general advices, tips and suggestions please visit one of the following threads:

http://forum.notebookreview.com/alienware/474521-installing-ssd-tips-tricks-benchmarks.html

http://forum.notebookreview.com/har...ssd-thread-benchmarks-brands-news-advice.html

Thanks

 

What should the 4k numbers be?

Here is my test (Corsair Force 240):

 

From the first image in the first link posted by Stam, you can see what an SSD drive does on the m17x R1 which does not exhibit the behavior. Those numbers are what we are shooting for, but right now we are pretty far off from it:

 

Any news Brian on how the SSD solution is coming along at Dell with the engineers? Any progress updates or are they busy working on another new driver? ehehehehe.

I'm considering getting an SSD however I want to wait and see if the problem can be resolved or not 1st.

Thanks.


Cheers.

 

Well the A09 BIOS was sent out giving back our multipliers and a sort of fix for the touchpad, the video card drivers and vbios were implemented. So, if they aren't working on this issue... I'm afraid they are concentrating on the next revision of the M17X or how to get those 4xx Nvidia cards in it.
Such an important issue spanning so many brands and so many models within the brand names, but still no word at all. As quickly as they respond to the video card issues you would think that the sheer volume of people complaining about this particular issue would move them towards even a temporary fix. Oh well I'll keep checking the news and this thread in hopes of answers.

 

You would think they would have a few people on their payroll to do what we are doing for them, which is Trouble shooting performance issues and enhancements. "Alienware" is a brand for performance hungry consumers, and Gamers. I expected the "Engineering" team to be on the same page as us, trying to be the leader in gaming systems, but it seems they treat this brand the same as their Latitude brand. Dell should hire two tech’s / Gamers, put them in a room, let them push these systems and let Alienware shin again as a Brand that really is in touch with it’s customer base. Thank god Brian communicates to his company what so many of us have spent endless hours on. Dell hire more Brians!

“Flynnaz steps off his soap box”

 

FYI - Brian sent me a PM that he is currently on vacation and will not be on the forums until he returns. Don't expect an update prior to Oct. 4th. When he returns, I'm sure he will be busy sorting out a huge inbox of email - so be patient

 

Oh thanks for the heads up Batboy!

Cheers.

 

That explains why he has not been here... I was worried. If he left Dell, what are the odds that Dell replaces him by someone as knowledgeable as him and as helpful...

 

I think if Dell were smart they would hire a couple of liasons for just this purpose. It saves them a lot of time and money. The wave of the future is the internet and its social networking. When you type into a search engine your issues with an Alienware laptop, NBR is on the top of the list with these forums. I know, that's how I found the forum myself. I find the help here superior to any tech support I received over a 6month period of almost daily calls. There were only two techs I would trust their opinions and expertise out of at least 20 maybe more.
So, coming to the forums is a 'new' and 'good' thing for Dell. I am both surprised and happy about it. I don't think they will abandon it anytime soon especially since NBR is extremely careful about its quality, sometimes too careful.
Brian has been the most helpful of all those that I've seen post here so far. I think he has a knack for letting the rants slide right off. Teflon or some such coating of the skin.
I too am still patiently waiting for some news on the issue. Just a little news would be helpful.

 

Your post is not relevant to this thread, you will get more replies here:
http://forum.notebookreview.com/har...ssd-thread-benchmarks-brands-news-advice.html

 

Are these SSD drives suppose to be faster than the 3,5" 7200RPM Desktop HDD?

Because in my case, playing Heroes of Newerth with a friend, my SSD loads the map slower than his desktop 7200rpm HDD.

 

What about comparing SSD vs HDD with the SAME OTHER COMPONENTS ?

Because it's not only the disk that makes the speed of one's system; you might just be comparing oranges with bananas, or maybe apples in the mix, see what I mean ?

Are your 2 SSDs RAIDed ?

What about your friend ?

Because to answer your question, we would need the exact specs of both computers, so we know where we're heading...

But lemme try a guess here anyways: YES, ANY SSD should work faster than ANY HDD...

But again, depending on all the other components, this might just explain that...

Cheers !

eYe



PS: Maybe you could just post an CDM bench so we can see clearly...

 

Got my new M17X R2 (SAMSUNG 256GB) replacement and the new one loads Windows in around 15 seconds vs around 25-30 for the old one. New one has FW 25 old one was FW 24

Will try to do some proper benchmarks tomorrow.

 

WOW 15 secs huh chiefs thats Awesomes
My windows loads in around 40 secs with the 2X 500gb hdds in RAID 0.
Can't wait to get my hands on an SSD.

Just waiting on news that Dell/Alienware have fixed the SSD issues 1st.

Any news anyone? Is Brian back from his holiday?

Cheers.

 

I've noticed that when i was doing the upgrade to the new video drivers and had removed the previous ones and ran driver sweeper and cc cleaner, so it was just back to the vga drivers, my windows would start up in 8 secs to get to the login prompt and a total of 12 seconds to the desktop including me typing in my password. After installing the video drivers(catalyst etc) it takes 12-13 secs to get to the login prompt and then about 21 to the desktop. The video drivers somehow affect load times.

 

Yep thats very true and normal chiefs. Its cause it has to load the GPU drivers. Nvidia had similar things too like where some drivers hindered OS load times more than others.

However there is still issues with performance when using SSDs in the M17x machine. We're still waiting on Dell/Alienware to fix these said issues. Eg. the random 4kb read writes and overall performance of SSDs due to intel chipset or something not working properly.

Thanks for the insight though chiefs.

Cheers.

 

There is absolutely no reason to wait on alienware/intel to fix the SSD issue for a number of reasons.
1. It probably will never be fixed and both companies would just keep blaming each other until R2 will become obsolete when the R3 will come out
2. Performance decrease with the issue is only occuring at very specific situations such as file copy or software installations when the CPU is idle and even with the "performance hit" the performance is amazing compared to any hdd.
3. JJBs or stamatisx's workaround solve the problem

 

Ah Thanks for that mfractal,

Thats a good point you make there. I was hoping that Dell would release a fix soon though as they said it was being investigated. So I guess we shall see.

I've been looking at a couple of SSDs I might get however I'm really in no rush so I guess I can still wait a while while newer SSDs come out soon and drop the prices of the older ones. I saw that some new Intel SSD specs leaked recently and the overall lifespan of the new drives are super duper. So thats a step in the right direction. Oles!

I also noticed that as of last nite on the AUS dell website the Dell SSDs have gone up from $191 wing wangs to $275. Not sure what exactly happen there? So I def won't be getting it from dell anymore thats for sure. It was an option at $191 pretty cheap but now its gone up close to the same price as after market SSDs.


Cheers.

 

Hey guys - sorry for the confusion. I'm back from vacaton but have a seriously nasty email backlog. I think I'm caught up on private messages here, and I'll try to make it through the various threads early next week.

I have some other news as well. I've been reassigned to a new role in an entire different line of business, so I'll be moving off of Alienware pretty quickly. I've already escalated all of the remaining big issues out here, but I will formally do so again before I transition completely off just to be sure that there is visibility. There are some new engineers working these issues as well, so that should help in getting things fixed.

Thanks for all the good times - I have thoroughly enjoyed working with you guys out here and this forum has been an absolutely fantastic source of information (positive and negative) about the products that we worked so hard to improve. Thanks again for all of your tremendous efforts in duplicating issues, testing drivers and BIOSes and helping out wherever possible. I am doubtful that my replacement will have a presence here, so in the meantime, please hit up Chris for Alienware issues and he can pass them on to engineering. He is a good guy and I'm sure he'll be happy to help out with whatever he can.

Thanks again!
Brian

 

Brian,
Gratz on your new role, I help they take care of you, they need people like you who care about the customer. Thank you for all of your help.

 

Howdies Brian,

Thanks for all the help.
It sure will be sad to see you go however congratulations on the new role.

Brian I just wanted to ask you if you know whether or not the engineering team are confident that the SSD performance issues can be fixed or not? Like whether or not a proper fix will be issued in the future or will this be unlikely. Thanks.

Cheers.