M17x R3 Integrated Intel SB GPU *IS Disabled* w/Optional 120Hz 3D WLED

FYI, the reasons why NVIDIA went from switchable graphics to Optimus:

J

 

lol, it's all a bunch of crap except for that last line. That's the real reason.

 

+1

so the ultimate question (since any future fix in bios/software is unknown at best) is whether or not 120hz (3D WLED) is worth possibly @2hrs loss in battery life...

 

Anyone else feel like this limitation should have been noted in the specifications instead of the manual? I am going to exchanging my 3d for non 3d once we verify significant battery life differences that can't be resolved with a future fix.

 

Of course, but there has to be a list

Really though, it does make much more sense to make it software implemented.


J

 

my question still stands... lol.

I think if we can find the answer with the Asus folks in regards to why they dont have Optimus, perhaps this will shed light on the 17x.

 

ditto.

although brian (erawneila) hasn't been around these parts in a couple of months, i've reached out to both he and chris (dellchrism) for some sort of official response regarding a potential bios/software fix for 120hz purchasers, when/if at all possible...

 

Anyone know why the are two separate settings in the nvidia control panel for SD/HD limited to 60hz and PC with the 120hz option? The r3 comes from factory set at 60hz in the SD/HD panel.

 

thread title changed by request -

M17x R3 Integrated Intel SB GPU *Disabled* w/Optional 120Hz 3D WLED? Why?

 

Haha that's exactly what I got from it.

 

To calrify this so everyone understands.

OEMs can absolutely completely disable the integrated Intel graphics in their designs if they so choose. Not through software, not through bios but through a hardware design that does not integrate the core GPU lanes from the Sandybridge chipset period. So for all intents and purposes it might as well be "removed". But yes the GPU core is still in the CPU but you can never ever use it if it's designed out by the OEM regardless of what is done with software or BIOS.

Is this the case here? Possibly but I don't know. The fact that you cannot order the system without a discrete graphics adapter might indicate it is, but we'll have to wait and see.

 

thanks batboy - thought it might be more helpful, since the issue may possibly have broader impact moving forward...

that's understood, but more than likely not the case regarding the M17x R3 since it's seemingly only affecting those who optioned 120hz 3d wled's at this point...

 

but again, I have to ask, why is the Asus the same? there must be a common factor, right?

 

A question for the audience in general, those of you with Optimus systems... when the switch occurs from Intel to nVidia "on the fly" (as they say) is it completely transparent or do you see screen flicker on the display (ala like it's changing modes).

IF you see no flicker, no change whatsoever, then that would explain why they aren't supported together. Optimus would require that the Intel graphics and the nVidia graphics be running at exactly the same vertical/horizontal scan frequencies in order to have a completely seemless experience. Most likely the two are actually streaming through one or the other (much like having an external av receiver with hdmi between your PC and LCD TV.

Since the nVidia card is running at 120hz and the Intel at 60, then cannot operate in sync hence no Optimus. Makes perfect sense.

However you should still be able to switch between the Intel graphics and nVidia graphics adapters themselves since they would run independently and the screen would operate at the refresh rate output of the video adapter, assuming of course the screen supports that mode.

 

Correct, I was just califying that Intel graphics can be completely unavailable even if the supported CPU is present.

 

Is there even any laptop 3D or not that support optimus with GTX460/GTX470/GTX480? i have never heard of any expect those laptops that come with entry level/budget nvidia cards

None exist and none that even announced exist (besides M17x r3) as far as i know

 

Many of the current ASUS are running the first generation I7. Their 3D system is currently only available with the first generation. The first generation I7 does not support Optimus technology. The newer notebooks by ASUS without 3D are only recently being released and some are sporting the second generation I7. Some of them are being reviewed and tested with the Optimus technology.

 

Before biting the bullet and ordering the r3, I was exploring other options and one was Asus g73sw with 2630 and 460m. I followed the discussions on that forum closely and was very disappointed by the fact that those who managed to get their hands on physical lappies (in New Zealand) confirm that, despite sandy bridge, there are no IGPs there in their machines from Windows' perspective (hense no optimus) and estimated battery life was just under 3 hours with 98% charge.

 

I don't see why it would not be possible to enable optimus (as an owner).

(External) Naudis1100's info on hybrid graphics

It's been enabled on several other notebooks. I don't see why it would be different in this case. Even I was able to modify an .inf for my xps 15 (which wasn't very useful as dell bought into verde like a week later). It's not the same as a full optimus package from scratch, but it's part of the process.


My guess regarding disabling optimus with 3D config is that they don't want to add all of the various media players and viewers to the optimus profiles (to turn on discreet GPU in order to view 3D media files).

 

Asus has released some that use Optimus (e.g. UL50Vf). However, like you and others are pointing out, can’t find one that is using the high end GPU’s. Hmmm, this is getting frustrating... I spoke with an engineer from Sager who confirmed through Clevo that they are not supporting Optimus technology in their recenlty released high end models. I guess this was old news, but was new to me.

 

Perhaps this was what BatBoy was referring to. Thanks for the info as I was curious about that particular model.

 

Any time the model is G73SW-A1

 

What do you guys make of the first photo in this series/album?

<embed width='480' height="360" src="http://static.pbsrc.com/flash/rss_slideshow.swf" flashvars="rssFeed=http%3A%2F%2Ffeed1100.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fg402%2FMX17R3%2FCPU%2520GPU%2520Temps%2Ffeed.rss" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" />

 

The battery pack cannot supply the current required for all the chips at full power draw. Thus, they have to be throttled. This is only an issue when taxing your CPU and GPU simultaneously on battery power.

 

Ati does offer switchable graphics with the m17x R3
http://forum.notebookreview.com/alienware-m17x/550930-m17xr3-6870-a.html

Getting 6970m will be interesting now, twice the performance of GTX460m and twice the battery life when switching the card, optimus will still be available for none 3D r3 properly (no tests yet)

 

I'm using an M11x R2 - there is no flicker or noticeable change when switching GPU's using Optimus.

In NVIDIA terms:

Maybe the Optimus copy engine simply isn't built to copy from a 120Hz frame buffer over to the IGP (which we assume can only run at 60Hz).

If the limitation is something like this, I can't foresee any kind of fix as the copy engine is built into the hardware.


J

 

Hey guys,

I came across this thread and wanted to take a moment to answer some questions and clear things up.

The new Alienware M17x R.3 is a phenomenal new notebook which has several key "firsts". Some aspects of this system can be confusing, so here's the scoop:

• Is this the first 3D Vision notebook offered by Alienware?
  -Yes, the M17 R.3 is the first Alienware notebook to feature a 120Hz 3D Vision panel.
  
  
• Does the M17x R.3 support NVIDIA Optimus Technology?
  -Yes, the M17x R.3 features Optimus technology when a GeForce GTX 460M is chosen without 3D Vision.
  
  
• I've never seen a GeForce GTX notebook GPU using Optimus technology on a notebook before!
  -Technically, all of NVIDIA's current notebook GPUs support Optimus technology. However, the choice to implement Optimus technology is up tot he vendor. The Alienware M17x R.3 is the first notebook to feature a GeForce GTX GPU and have Optimus technology implemented.
  
  
• Why can't I use Optimus technology with 3D Vision?
  -One of the key aspects of NVIDIA's Optimus technology is that the LVDS display is routed directly to the IGP. This is due to the fact that Optimus always uses the IGP's display controller. When Optimus turns the dGPU is off (100% electrically off, 0W), the IGP is 100% on and enabled. Once Optimus enables the dGPU, every part of the IGP besides the display controller is either shut down or sent to the lowest power state. In each case, the IGP display controller is always used to send to the LCD.
  
  With 3D Vision, the 120Hz 3D LCD needs to be attached directly to the GPU and cannot be routed through the IGP's display controller.
  
  
• Can I just disable the IGP and run the GPU 100% of the time?
  - Optimus leverages the IGP and GPU to provide the best performance along with the longest battery life possible. If for some reason you didn't want to reap the benefits of the additional battery life, you cannot disable Optimus by disabling the Intel IGP in the Windows Control Panel. Even when the GPU is being used, Optimus uses the display controller portion of the IGP to render to the system's LVDS panel and the remainder of the IGP remains off. As a result, the IGP can never be fully disabled as you'd have no output to the screen.
  (the display is routed to the IGP and literally isn't connected to the GPU)
  
  Fortunately, you have the ability to customize nearly every aspect of Optimus within the NVIDIA Control Panel. Here, you can enable the ability to right-click on an application's .exe and choose whether you want it to run on the IGP or GPU. In addition, you can modify existing Optimus application profiles and create new profiles to force them to run on the IGP or GPU. You can view a YouTube video I created here which outlines how to enable and use this feature (along with the other Optimus features listed within the NVIDIA Control Panel). I apologize for the low volume...
  
  YouTube - NVIDIA Optimus Driver Tutorial

With thanks,

Sean

Sean Pelletier
Senior Technical Marketing Manager - Notebooks
NVIDIA

 

Sean,

Why would nVidia make optimus dependent on the integrated display controller 100% of the time? I'm sure your design team was well aware that SB's integrated controller would be insufficient. To be honest it doesn't seem like a smart design decision. You may have gained some battery life but at the expense of using it concurrently with 3D which puts people off from pursuing nVidia's 3D solution. In large gaming notebooks such as the Alienware M17x-R3, battery life is critical for those that wish to travel AND enjoy a fully immersive gaming experience.

Thanks for clearing this up for everyone.


Edit: For those that aren't engineers and are wondering what LVDS is:

 

while the clarification is very much appreciated (albeit disappointing), i am going to have to agree with joker on this - this seems very much self defeating for nvidia, most especially from a marketing standpoint...

 

@PellyNV:

I have some questions regarding Optimus, Linux and the M17xR3, and you seem the right guy to ask.

I want to use Linux on a non-3D M17xR3 and it would be nice to be able to also use the NVIDIA card.
Unfortunately Linux cannot use a optimus enabled NVIDIA card because it requires it to be directly routed to the display.

In your post you said:

Now I' m asking what are the differences in hardware regarding display connection between a 3D and a non-3D M17xR3?

My hope is that there is only a multiplexer that routes either the Intel or the NVIDIA card to the display depending on the connected display and that can be controlled by the user.

Is that so ...?

 

Sean, thank you for the information!!!

I suppose now the question is whether or not the motherboard is different between 3D and non-3D, connection for LVDS to motherboard is different, or a hidden BIOS setting is used to change the configuration.

The service manual doesn't seem to indicate a different connection and the part reference thread doesn't seem to indicate a different motherboard.

So, maybe a BIOS setting can disable the 3D and there is a software controlled multiplexer that reroutes the LVDS signal?

Sounds like we'll get to the bottom of this soon. In the meantime, if you have your M17X with and without 3D, can you post a picture of the connection between your display and the motherboard?

 

The previous implementation of hybrid graphics, switchable graphics, used a multiplexer and hence was user controllable in the way you mention. I don't believe Optimus uses any hardware like this. This is from the Optimus white paper:

"One of the primary advantages of Optimus compared to Switchable Graphics is that it does not need additional hardware like multiplexers. An Optimus implementation's simplicity reduces costs, eases design and verification effort, and speeds time to market. As noted earlier, all display connections are made directly to the IGP. Regardless of which display adapter is processing the workload, the IGP will push the output to the display."


J

 

I know, but 3D requires the NVIDIA card to be directly connected to the display and there's also the option to have a AMD card. I doubt that Dell has different mainboards for the M17xR3 depending on which card you have or if you have the 3D display. If there is only one mainboard for the M17xR3 it has to have a multiplexer to be able to support 3D or an AMD card.

 

which is why if alienware were to allow the enabling of igp in bios, only 60hz would be supported to the 120hz 3d wled on a reboot. this would both disable 3d vision and enable optimus. then vice versa when re-enabling 3d vision...

granted, both optimus and 3d vision wouldn't be available simultaneously - but at least a manual option to switch between the two would exist.

i guess the main question (for someone with current access to the innards of an M17x R3 - mandrake? ) is whether or not the screen is directly connected to the discrete gpu, physically bypassing the integrated gpu altogether as suggested by the sean/white paper.

if so, then optimus is truly not going to ever be an option on a 120hz equipped M17x R3's...

 

Ah, I see what you mean. Although PellyNV does state that the 120Hz LCD must be connected directly to the GPU. This would imply that there is no multiplexer on at least the 3D Vision version of the laptop?


J

 

No it's not. Proof coming soon.

 

That's pretty much the point. If the integrated Intel GPU doesn't support 120hz and the nVidia GPU is running the screen at 120, then you cannot simply switch between the two "transparently" which is what optimus does (this is why I asked if anyone who has Optimus sees anything occur during the "switch").

Hence I don't see a solution ever appearing unless there's a way to activate support in the Intel Sandybridge for the exact same graphics modes as the nVidia discrete.

 

I also wonder how the WirelessHD might be affected by the output being routed directly from the 460M instead of the IGP.

 

Good point, and this might be the unforseen dilemma that has caused the delay.

 

Pics or it DID happen

 

well thats crappy no optimus with 3d m17xr3.

the radeon 6970 + switchable graphics will be the superior choice for all r3's. spending an additional +425 and losing switchable graphics just for 3d is definitely not worth it

 

But does ATI offer their own 3D? Or do you just use the 6970 with nvidia's stuff+the 120hz screen?

 

I've been researching how LVDS is supported by the CPU and HM67 (chipset). This is what I found:

The CPU's integrated GPU and discrete graphics card connect to the HM67 through the 2 inputs supported by the flexible display interface (FDI). The HM67 then converts the FDI inputs to LVDS, HDMI, DisplayPort, VGA, etc.

Source: http://www.intel.com/Assets/PDF/datasheet/324645.pdf

Therefore, there MUST be either a electrical multiplexer to support the LVDS of the 460M connecting directly to the 120Hz display:

[LVDS output from HM67 IGP and MXM via FDI] -----\

-----> LCD Display

[LVDS output from MXM direct] --------------------/

There are plenty of companies such as National Semiconductor that make LVDS multiplexers. If anyone gets a chance, please look for any small chips next to the northbridge/southbridge chips.

Finally, my guess is that when the BIOS detects the 120Hz display, it is automatically switches the multiplexer to utilize the MXM direct output. The LVDS output from the HM67 probably can't handle 1920x1080 at 120hz while the LVDS output from the 460M can handle the additional bandwith. Thus the need to connect directly from the MXM to the LCD display.

This could also explain why there are no configs at this time with the 120Hz display because it would also require using the discrete graphics directly and thus disabling the IGP.

Hopefully Dell will give us the option to disable the need to output 120hz and enable the IGP in the BIOS setup.

 

A way to test this theory is to replace a 120hz display with a 60Hz display and see if the BIOS enables the IGP.

 

If you can get AW to configure you a notebook with an HD6970M and a 120Hz screen you can get 3D graphics from a 3rd party app such as iZ3D. You'll need to buy your own shutter glasses too.

Should still cost less than a GTX 48M though.

 

I'm not sure you are going to find an emitter that will sync with the monitor properly.

 

i jus cant imagine why some 1 would pay extra money and lose half the battery life for 3d. 3d aint that great

 

For some of us, battery life is meaningless. I have only run my M15x on battery one time in 15 months and that was to see how long it would last (just for fun).

We all buy for different reasons, so we all have different requirements. As awkward as the M15x is, I couldn't imagine trying to use it as a battery operated portable, I know I'd never use my incoming R3 as a portable, so battery means nothing to me. What does mean something to me is the 120Hz LCD, which just happens to come with 3d.

I use laptops so I can take them place to place, but when I get where I am going, they get plugged into the wall.

 

It ain't that much more money. You say $425, try 50 or $75. You also get the 120 hz screen and nvidia only extra,s like cuda and phyzx. The 3d is just a bonus particularly when you do not expect to unplug your 17.3", 12 lb. Behemoth. Different strokes I say!

 

This is very hard for some people to understand. The 3D reviews on the R3 have been very good so far, but that will just be ignored. The R3 even without Optimus has superior battery life to the R2 and possibly better than my M15x. Even if there's a group of people out there that enjoy 3D there's going to be just as many people that bash it because it's not what they want, and in most cases, this opinion is formed without trying to experience it. Crazy, I know, but expected. And like you said, for some its the 120Hz option that they want, and 3D is just a bonus.