M17x-R2 4870/5870 Throttling?

Original posts from the M17x Benchmark thread moved here:


Hey guys, some interesting stuff I discovered. Both 4870 and 5870 throttle at high GPU clocks! I got suspicious when I noticed my scores were going down despite higher clocks. I set GPU-z to monitor + log an lo and behold, they are indeed throttling like mad. I found a workaround using RivaTuner for the 4870s. I got as far as getting RivaTuner to recognize the 5870s but changing the clocks yielded BSOD's. So for now, I have a fix in place to get rid of the throttling for the 4870s but I think 5870s are SOL.

Cooling it down doesn't help and it happens on both the 4870 and 5870 cards. Here's a snippet of the 4870XF throttling:

Temps are excellent with the 4870s. It's just a case of the bios limiting it.

On that note I have some positive news for you guys. I wrote Brian (erawneila) a few days back to express my concern about the vbios limitation. It turns out that Dell did not deliberately limit the cards to Dell drivers and that they claim it is an oversight by AMD. They said they will contact AMD and make sure they include the device ID in their future Catalyst release so that the 5870s work with reference drivers. They also want to know about the performance discrepancy that I've seen between the 4870s and 5870s so I'll be sending them my results. Finally, I'm going to bring up the throttling issue with them and see what they have to say.

Here's what the engineering team wrote him:

 

So in theory a fix could be in the future?

 

so whats the throttle fix for the 4870s?

 

The issue is not the video card, but the system BIOS

at least that has been the case in the R2 (Most likely the exact same BIOS power schemes)

 

Joker, I just wanted to say thank you for taking the initiative and contacting the AW representatives regarding all the 5870 issues that you've encoutnered. It's much appreciated.
Dell should just outsource some of its parts testing to people like you in this forum that know what they are doing. We'll get better working systems if they did that insted of using their own tech testing "specialists".

 

Lets say ATI updated the 10.5 drivers with the device id's of the 5870? How will that be any different than what i did manually? I added the device id's and got the drivers to install.

And then they blue screened my system over and over...

or will ATI actually program the driver differently so that what i experienced doesnt happen?

not sure i'll know since i got an RMA for my system today....

 

Good point. I'd be keen to understand this as well.

Incidentally, +Rep Joker - respect your initiative & effort in putting this together and going the extra mile mate.

 

this is what im interested in. if the cards are throttling and there is a work around i would be interested in knowing it =)

 

Throttling does not exist with i7 620M so wont affect you with 540M.

 

ok......cool

 

I'm not sure but I doubt it's as simple as adding the vendor id. There's probably additional changes AMD does. Now that Dell knows and is contacting AMD, we'll likely have reference drivers working for us in the next Catalyst release or the one after that. Now if we can solve the throttling issue, we're golden.

 

Can the throttling issue be resolved just with a bios update? It seems it has to do with power issues. Maybe the adapter is right.

 

Just a quick observation:

I have noticed the same issue at 900mhz and above. I actually get lower Crysis scores than about 800.

One thing I haven't elaborated on, but in my testing; the difference between the 5870's and the 4870's really starts to show in torture testing. No point testing at lower detail levels. Crank those settings all the way, and turn on AA and AF all the way up too, NOW you will see the 5870's start to run away.

Although yeah, for the record, the DX11 capability is pretty moot, just like with the cards that were out when DX10 first arrived, it's not really playable. It's pretty, but not playable.

 

I too have noticed the throttling on my R2. It wasn't super bad during game-play, but it was noticeable (usually saw it when the fans kicked on to high, but I believe that because there was a second thing to bring my attention). I am on the 4870's, everything stock. I don't think it's anything to worry about on my end, but it does shed some light on the different scores I have had benchmarking (like running 06, nothing has changed on my computer, but I have had 3 different scores). Should I be worried about it? I don't have a screenshot, but I have seen these tiny little dips in the GPU-Z graphs where it drops from 800 down to I think 625, then right back up.

Right now I have the time to do testing, if someone would tell me what I need to run, how to run it, and how to display my results, I will be more than happy to do it. With all the bad luck I had with the R1, it really jaded me to the R2, but now that I have run it a few times, I really like it and want to get it to perform at its best for as long as possible.

 

I'll be following up with a post maybe tonight or tomorrow that details how to stop the 4870's from throttling. It works 100% as I spent a few hours testing it last night and the system never throttled again. Unfortunately, I don't have a working fix for the 5870s as of yet.

 

Much obliged for that Joker!

 

Well, I suppose it's a good thing my system won't arrive for another two weeks then

 

Joker: thank you for your hard work, sir. I know that you personally would like to have an immaculate m17x, but your endeavors benefit us all. Again, thanks.

Wouldn't it be nice if the ceo of alienware actually used the products his company makes? Assuming he/she is computer savvy, they would notice these problems and be driven to resolve them much in the same way we are, only things would be resolved much faster.

 

Michael Dell should put Joker on the payroll for all the work he is doing for us and them. He's practically working harder than their own engineers.

 

Thanks but it's really not much work this time around. I'm very familiar with throttling because of my experience with the M15x so it was easy to figure out what was wrong this time and fix it for the 4870s. I think the throttling at high clocks is there because it approaches the bios power trip limit. If the PSU was 300W and the bios was programmed to take advantage of it, I doubt we'd see any throttling. I'm not really even sure if publishing a fix is the right thing to do since Dell must have a good reason for having that power trip limit in place.

 

So they can distribute 240w psus instead of 300w psus, and therefore save a little money on each sale.

I don't really have any faith left in Dell for anything throttling related, especially after that SXPS 1640. Good thing we have you, thanks.

 

I think they save more by protecting their hardware using throttling techniques rather than providing less powerful PSUs.
The cost for Dell to go from 240W to 300W or 400W PSU is minimal compared to replacing a burned CPU or GPU

 

That would make sense if it was based on temperatures read by the sensors, but this is just a power draw limitation.

 

The power limitation is a failsafe for Dell (an economic one).
If they allowed lets say the GPUs to work at the very limit of their potential, that would reduce their longevity by a lot and it would result to too many hardware failures in a very short time. In the case of a laptop that is still under warranty that would entitle its owner for a free part replacement thus losses for Dell.
Instead they prefer to run them at let's say 80% of their potential and be safe

 

Joker, I say post your fix. If people want to mess with it, let them. If it fries their system, its their fault.

 

Yeah, I guess that is true too.

Is there a fix that doesn't push the cards higher than stock, but eliminates the throttling? I have stock clocks, but would like to keep my fps up to stock levels, without the cards fluctuating.

 

I haven't observed throttling at stock clocks but I'll double check to be sure. How many of you want the fix for the 4870s?

 

I think the thing that would kill a gpu the fastest would be constant cycling from ~50-60 Celsius to ~70-80+ Celsius. If a gpu is running at a safe temperature, how would drawing more power be harmful?

 

I would like to tinker with it. Mine only does the throttling from time to time, usually when a lot is going on on-screen (like nearly maxed out CC3/4) or if I am in a 32 player DOD Source game and there are more than 5 people in the immediate area or lots of smoke. Then I see (in GPU-Z) a few spots where it will throttle back for a sec, then up again. It is pretty insignificant for me as I don't intend to OC (perhaps a mild, but nothing like you guys do), but I would like the cards not to do it at all if possible.

If you don't want to post it here, a PM with it would be appreciated. I see that you are keeping your 5870 now. Cannot wait to see what you can do with it.

 

More power equals higher temperatures and higher temperatures equals a smaller lifespan.
When hardware operates within safe limits, fluctuation of temperatures within those limits doesn't affect its lifespan.

 

So why do they opt for a less exacting method where hardware could still be damaged say, if a heatsink was loose. The gpu would heat up to 120+ Celsius just fine with these power draw limitations in this scenario.

 

Alright, I thought about it a bit and saw that nobody with an M15x has yet had a system failure with the throttling fix so I don't see the M17x-R2 failing prematurely because of it either. Though I will preface the fix with the following:

**USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. I AM NOT LIABLE FOR ANY DAMAGE DONE TO YOUR SYSTEM AS A RESULT OF THIS METHOD. THIS METHOD IS STRICTLY FOR EDUCATIONAL PURPOSES AND MAY VOID YOUR WARRANTY SHOULD DAMAGE RESULT TO YOUR HARDWARE AS A RESULT OF USING IT.***

 

@Sirhcz0r, what you describe here is a scenario of a hardware failure (loose heatsink). This is not a regular case and there are other mechanisms that protect the hardware in such cases.
Throttling is used to protect the hardware in the long run.

@Joker, thanks for the process joker, it will become handy anytime soon.

 

Nice, thanks for the post Joker.

 

+1 Joker, I may have to reacquaint myself with Rivatuner!

This just seems redundant though. You said yourself, if it's fluctuating within an acceptable range, it's perfectly safe, so why not have it be temperature throttled instead of also having power draw limits? If it's "for the long run", the throttling threshold should just be a lower temperature.

 

Nice! Will give this a shot this weekend. I assume to revert back, just remove things added in and set clocks back to stock?

 

Throttling is used to protect other parts of the laptop as well like the PSU and not only the CPU or the GPU.
If throttling occurs to protect the PSU, the temperatures of the GPU or the CPU won't necessarily reach their safe limit. The result though will be the same (lower performance).

 

I have a question about that as well. When these changes are made in Rivatuner, is it effecting something within the registry, or is it something that is only in effect when Rivatuner is running? I believe it's only in effect when Rivatuner is open, but somebody else will know for sure.

 

Which leads me all the way back to my initial statement, it's to give us cheaper psus.

 

Nice joker your awesome i just hope people don't whine about their bricked system advise at your own risk lol. Dell needs to pay more attention to this forum and the people like yourself dedicated to rid of these things.

 

Yes considering the limitations set by Dell, it would be redundant to provide bigger PSUs (I agree they can save money this way)

The changes will affect the Rivatuner and only when Rivatuner is running.

 

Can anyone explain to me briefly what throttling means? I'll be getting the m17x-R2 with the 5870 CF soon and I hope it's not as troubling as its predecessor the R1.

 

I am sure someone will offer a more in-depth explanation of throttling, but in a nutshell, the GPU's speed up and slow down depending on graphic load and heat. If you are playing a game and there is a lot of stuff going on, the cards will get hot/draw a lot of power and whenever either hits their threshold limit set by the manufacturer, the GPU takes its foot off the gas to save the components from damage.

If I missed anything, please let me know...

 

That's pretty much it Trikster

 

I'm learning... Amazing forum...

 

Wow, its a pity the M17X throttles as well .

Just as a thought for you guys talking about the reasoning. TheGPU and CPU are not the only components in the notebook. The PSU is rated at 19V but the hardware runs at about 1.X Volts. Thus there is a lot of circuitry between the GPU and the PSU. It might well be that the throttling issue is protecting the components on the motherboard from a too high current draw.

I'd actually be interested to see if there is any correlation between throttling and the current flowing in the laptop. Is there a way to see the actual current draw in the system?

 

I just did some quick tests in L4D 2 to see just how cpu limited that game is and how much GPU clocks affect it. The test system was my dual 4870 setup.

Stock clocks: 54 fps
OC 620/1100: 62 fps
OC 700/1150: 64 fps


Conclusion? The game is severely CPU limited and doesn't scale well beyond 620 core unless you have something more powerful than a 720qm to go with it. I ran these benchmarks with 8xAA/16xAF, all high settings with adaptive AA enabled in the control panel. I also used my throttling fix with rivatuner and here's what the clocks looked like in GPU-Z

No throttling.

 

Which driver did you use for your L4D2 test?

 

Catalyst 10.5. I should e-mail you the swamp demo I'm using so we can compare it against the 280M SLI.

 

I just wanted to add that a 240W PSU should be more than enough. If it's rated at 240W it can probably hit the 260W-270W range. If you are getting close to that limit with a high OC which actually would be difficult because the bios would limit it, then that is when it's time to take extra steps to cool off the PS. Point being I don't think a 300W PS would give you anything extra.