M17xR2 Bios A08 Discussion Thread

not sure if someone has already said this but why not just add a switch in the bios to enable and disable Turbo Ratio Limits.

if you dont have a problem = disable

 

Here's a thought - why not make the turbo mode multipliers a BIOS option?

Code:

Turbo Mode Ratios        [Intel Standard]
Turbo Mode Ratios        [Maximum]

It can sit on the same page as the rest of the performance options. By default it can use the stock Intel clocks, but change an option and you're back to the A07 BIOS behaviour.

This is the best of both worlds. For the majority of users, the system can use the stock Intel turbo multipliers, and the throttling issues that Dell's engineers have found can be worked around. For those who are in the now, you can revert back to the previous (faster) behaviour of setting the max multipliers.

Edit: doh! Beaten to the punch!

 

great minds think alike

 

Well I guess being that I am now out of my return period as of 3 weeks ago, a refund is out of the question. Maybe a replacement with the high priced workstation I was trying to avoid. Doubtful.
This issue will certainly come to a head when A09 comes out. As soon as there is a BIOS upgrade that will be needed for other issues and this is still part of the upgrade... A07 won't be a viable option.
Rockwell - I am using Autodesk software as well. I am not going to use A08 due to the large performance hit. I would like to go on record as one of the users that did NOT see any throttling or cpu heat issues whatsoever.
Brian - Is there any kind of testing that we can do to prove that this is not an issue with the 920/940XM cpu's? This forum has already proven itself a worthy test bed with the vbios and Dell Beta drivers. Is there anything the users here can do to debunk this issue the engineers have found and give them solid numbers to back it up?
Joker has already done his own tests, if we all were to perform the same and post results would that make a difference?
I don't know whether to be pissed or sad or both.
**EDIT** To cursixx and nzgeek I can only hope they will use your idea(s) [since the two of you came up with it simultaneously] in a future BIOS release. Best of all worlds and a simple solution to boot

 

Yup, that is a great idea about the option to switch in the BIOS. That would be a welcome tweak but just nerfing the procs for everyone, problems or not, is not the way to go. As stated the M15x and M17x are vastly different. Treat them that way when an update is made to BIOS or otherwise.

 

The problem with the Dell Engineering team is that they have cushy jobs and can tell their management things like "its too hard" and "its impossible" and "it will take too long".
Management dont know otherwise, so let them be.

For them to change/add a new menu option into the bios is solid work - I am willing to bet a hundred bucks that they will find an excuse not to.

Dell engineering have proven time and time again they will always choose the path of least work.

-Ash

 

Lol, you've gone far ahead, Bro! I think, at some point of frustration I flashed mine back to A02/3

 

Um, if I may put my 2 cents worth in. With A08 maximum clock speeds in turbo mode are no more than 2.7ghz are they not? If this is so, Dell is currently advertising falsely that the 920xm runs at 3.2ghz in turbo mode. Couldn't they run into some serious legal troubles for all m17x's sold and shipped with the update A08?

 

The only reason for me to upgrade to a new BIOS would be if they ever decided to implement a proper solution for the slow SSD performance (it's not going to happen though and the reason is simple, they don't know how to do it)
I really enjoy my CPU performance as is so I will definitely pass A08,A09,etc... thanks

 

maybe... just maybe they'll fix it come A09 bios and revert it

 

HAHAHAHAHAH.

Living in a dream world desu.

-Ash

 

they usually add things to later bios versions, not removing. A07 bios seems to be the last bios for many of us.

about the no performance drop reported by engineers, well it can be observed even on win7 startup time, before anything else., losing performance of ssds-cpu combination


they should care for 4k readings of ssds than fixing the minimum throttling issues that a few users may observe under specific situations by destroying performance of all users.


here is something i found from another forum

well looks like even the touchpad is not fixed. i would say they did it to protect themselves from mulfuctioning cpus. thats all.

i personally reverted back to A07. Engineers can spend their time making useless bioses that noone (who knows some more stuff) is going to use. thanks Dell.

 

Absolutely unbelievable what the engineers told you Brian. I know you're just forwarding this information to us, but this can't be right:

Uh, and it's exactly what you offer for your systems, extreme cpus. It's just a shortened quote, but the whole statement is not very solid, and whoever put it in those words is clearly contradictory and just looking for a stupid reason. I hope Dell gets in serious trouble for false advertising and making a problem out of nowhere that should not have happened in the first place. If you think the problem is existent in the M15x, well ok, but as many people already stated before with their M17x, there is no such issue. In a matter of scaring of customers, you're indeed doing a great job.

 

Just to echo the above , particulary

"Some users may experience a minor decrease in CPU scores, but that should be limited to benchmarking software and extreme CPU-intensive applications such as real-time rendering."

Again - thanks for getting us this feedback -
but what do engineering think we sunk such a lot of cash into a "Extreme CPU" if not "Extreme CPU-Intesive applications"
perhaps they could enlighten us.....?
Also , how are they defining "minor" - the numbers are already in this thread and I would disagree they are "minor"

as for limited to benchmarking software - I myself have noticed a slowdown whilst working (to the point of reinstalling my OS prior to knowing the cause...dohh )- Others have said SC2 performance has hit the floor ............this is real world stuff and not "benchmarking" .. added to that I think joker/unclewebb have posted real numbers .. .

Extreme CPU users have very high spec machines - the statements made by engineering seems to think the majority wont 'notice' this....
They seem to be forgetting the type of people that will be using these .. . (enthusiasts , people doing rendering work/ intesensive cpu work / the greatest and latest games)
This is the 'flagship' product after all


I suppose the real question Brian - where do we go from here.
I feel , like many others here this BIOS is completely unwarranted - sure engineering will be aware of far, far more issues (and potential issues) that we are not privy too - but I am not sure how they expected the userbase to react to this.....
If you had spent (upto ? 1k) on an Extreme CPU and it was 'throttled' to the numbers you are seeing (up to 28% under full load I think?) would you be happy ?


Brian. . . .seriously you are an absolute legend in getting us feedback and speaking to engineering so THANK YOU - I know I am shooting the messenger again (sorry!!) but I'm sure you understand (and no doubt agree with!) the points in these posts...

 

30% peformance loss (as reported from people in this thread) is not minor for sure.

 

Reading the posts of those who already took the plunge to A08, there is a noticeable performance hit, Brian. In gaming and non-gaming applications alike.
You really need to implore the engineers to undo the change in the next BIOS. We, the customers, paid for a high-end machine, and this new BIOS cripples it, effectively stealing from us.

I wanna go on record as well, categorically stating that I did not, and never have experienced any CPU throttling or heat issues, and I am running A06 BIOS.

 

Ick. rolling back to a07 now, thanks for posting this. "making all their nowhere bios for nobody"

I believe I paid an additional $600 for my extreme CPU. I guess Dell feels I should not be trusted with one.

 

i too am disappointed at dell's decision to cut back the performance of extreme cpus after charging us almost £1000. Brian, i hope you can convey the real users disatisfactions to the engineering team. you (dell-alienware) guys have been on the right track so far especially with the 5870 Driver+vBios and touchpad improvement but the cpu cutback is really not a welcoming "feature/fix".

 

Ash- I have to agree with you. It isn't just Dell that this happens at. It's called complacency because they have a good job and no one is questioning their knowledge. This complacency turns into mediocrity and then you have an even worse situation where things won't change because anyone new that comes in and rocks the floating boat will be most unwelcome. I digress.

I believe that the only thing that will move the engineers in the right direction is an accusation that the higher-ups can not ignore. Someone with the time and resources can put together the advertisements they saw at the time of purchase that clearly stated performance numbers. Then counter those with the actual numbers under numerous real world applications and benchmarking situations; both before and after the BIOS revision including the statement issued by the engineers. This person or multiple people can demand their money back based on 'false advertising' and then maybe they will take action and double check what is going on in engineering. It is the loss of or potential loss of money that will force their hand and not much else.
I would have liked to say we could make a demand of a change and not a refund but unfortunately the law would probably only allow for a full refund. Now,that's not to say Dell may implement a fix in the meantime but someone or a group has to force their hand.

Brian - I hate that you are the messenger and as such are in the line of fire. Numbers and real world apps, including new games, are proving the engineers wrong. If almost 30% is a minor decrease in performance, I would hate to see what they consider moderate. If you can find a way to use the forum as a testing ground and give those engineers real world feedback to prove our point... please do so. Some may disagree with me on this, having users do the testing for Dell, but I for one would like to keep my laptop and its performance intact. I don't want a refund but if the Engineers are not willing to budge then what choice do we have but to stick with older BIOS' and possibly take other hits in the future, especially if they come up with a fix for the SSD's and the multiple display issue Ash is having.

 

So 30% is a minor decrease? So lets say you make $700 a week in salary your boss comes and says we are gonna give you a 30% pay cut to which he says is not that much your new salary is $490.That seems like alot to me.

 

I tend to agree as well... this Bios Upgrade / Performance Downgrade bites!

Rather than engineers trying to anticipate what problems exist, what users want, etc. All they need to do is come here... I'd wager that almost every M17xR2 user would consider these the top three things that NEED fixed:

1. Fix the trackpad polling rate (without neutering our CPUs)
2. Fix or at least investigate the SSD performance issue
3. Keep our drivers updated on a regular, consistent basis

The 30% performance hit needs to go away... Either roll the multipliers back to where they were originally or give us a menu option in the bios to pick 'default' or 'performance' if you have an extreme CPU.

With an extreme CPU, we paid a premium for killer performance... We simply expect what we paid for. Also, keep in mind all of the magazine reviews, etc. were done with the old multipliers. What will they say when customers start complaining...

This has the makings for a major PR nightmare that could easily be avoided if engineering could provide a more flexible solution for those of us who caughed up the $$$ in the first place.

 

Thanks for the info Brian, but it seems as though Dell Engineering lately has set a pattern of behavior that displays that they want to market "performance" systems and then reduce and cripplet the systems potential so as not to have to deal with the problems themselves. It' really is pretty disappointing and I hope that they realize the impact of the actions, as I know I personally will jump ship for better support, or at least a system that isn't diliberately handicapped. Although it "shouldn't be noticeable" it has a serious impact on things like video encoding which I tend to do quite a bit. Until Dell Engineers work on the actual problems that exist, rather then "potential problems A07 (currently on A06) will be the last Bios I use and the R2 will most likely be the Last Dell system for me. Which is a bummer as I tend to really like Dell. Hopefully some good news will arise eventually. Again, thanks for keeping up the hard work Brian, and for keeping us informed and being the voice of the M17x fans here at NBR.

 

Well I been having some problems since I upgraded to the A08 bios. My mouse lags occasionally and even completely freezes up (both touchpad and mouse). I just downgraded back to A06 and so far I haven't had this problem again.

 

Here we go again the bait and switch. Most customers that buy the extreme cpus are not the average user looking for a machine to surf. They want to get everything this machine has to offer. I think it Dell's short sightedness will hurt sales. I can tell you this unless this gets fixed I don't think I will ever buy another Dell. With the hacked drivers and then no driver support after a time period, I think Dell's gaming laptop time is done. I actually like Dell machines but this is the last straw. I am stuck with this machine but trust me in the future I will be going elsewhere. If I install the new bios I cannot say I have the fastest, and isn't that the point of owning this machine?

 

"Here we go again the bait and switch."

That's a bit harsh, what are your sources for "again" in regards to Alienware products?

"Dell Engineering lately has set a pattern of behavior that displays that they want to market ..."

Engineering and marketing are two separate entities.

 

Gameplayer22,

Cobra99's remarks are actually dead on:

All of the magazine reviews, ect. for the M17xR2 were done at the non-standard multipliers. Anyone buying a new system that has installed A08 is essentially not getting what they were led to believe they were getting.

Back when the Area-51 M17 was launched, owners were assured repeatedly that their laptops would be upgradeable to the next-generation ATI cards - even in marketing materials. However, when ATI released the new cards, Alienware offered an upgrade option for like a week or two and then pulled it.

Customers who purchased the system with the plans to upgrade were effectively told 'too bad'.

Marketing and engineering are two separate entities, but the engineering folks need to either live up the marketed expectations of their products.

 

The A08 bios update description states:

A08 System BIOS Release Notes:
1. Implemented Turbo Ratio limits to default values.
2. Improved touchpad polling rates.

You don't have to flash to it. They're not hiding the fact that they're changing ratio limits.

"Bait and switch" is, loosely, advertising a product and then selling you something else; not the same as phasing out support on some upgrade. What if it's a supply issue? Some design change that made the upgrade not feasible? If Alienware didn't support a promised upgrade (or whatever else was promised), was that advertised during the time of purchase, or was it before it officially went on sale? Either way, Dell as been very good about returns.

Your suggestion for different ratio menu options is a good one, perhaps we'll see it in a future update. That's the kind of feedback that is needed, not the "bait and switch" comment, as that is speculation, and doesn't help the engineers.

 

I actually feel it is a bait and switch. I ordered my machine and ordered a 940XM even before I received it because of the hype. Now if I want to fix the TP I have to take a hit in performance. I know I don't have to upgrade and use a mouse, but that’s not the point. I know things ship with flaws and as long as it gets fixed I don't care. I'm not here to harp on anyone in particular just that it was advertised as one thing and then changed. Ok I will change the bait and switch comment and say Dell is just lying to its customers.

 

Im just wondering here, regarding the extreme cpu's.....obviously NOW thier performance has been limited due to bios changing the multipliers that people had prior to bios A08. That seems to be fact. Going from Axx to A08 reduces the xm multipliers by limiting thier turbo functionality - in esscence, crippling them.

I never looked at an xm because,well, to me the extra £500ish was better spent elsewhere BUT for those of you who DID plum for the xm, this has gotta hurt as its totally NOT on ..... you bought the xm because of its performance and now Dell hinder/reduce its performance due to a throttling issue which the m17x r2 doesnt suffer with...

Basically, Dell have applied a BIG band-aid to something thhat doesnt need fixing just because they didnt want people complaining about loud fans and throttling which never existed in the first place.

I know if i buy something with a "stated" performance, i dont expect to have it withdrawn and then to add insult to injury, be told that its "minor" in engineers words.

If i owned an xm based system, right now i would be thinking of selling up or returning it for a refund.....

Dell has to realise that it cant go around shafting people who have spent thousands on the very highest of high end notebooks only to in effect have the rug pulled out from under them further down the line.

They should be offering support and improvements and NOT lack of commitment and drwabacks.....

Tsk....i tell ya, im beginning to regret buying into Alienware...seems like its one step forward and two steps back...

 

These posts are getting extremely repetitive. We all
Know what the solutions are and what A08 does.

 

aww come on ..

If I want the touchpad to work to a reasonable standard- yes, I do have to flash to it.
I take your other point , but somehow infering that it's the users "choice" is a somewhat strange approach to take ><

yes, I can "choose" to have a awful touchpad OR a CPU performing at 30% less than it used to .............This isn't really acceptable whichever way you cut it ..

 

Why on earth should those people with an xm HAVE to find solutions to Dells incompetence?

I think you are missing the point here - yes it can be worked around but why shoul dit have to be.

Intel advertise the xm's with turbo up to 3.2 and 3.3 repsectively for the 920 / 940.

Now, if dell have reduced that via bios, then that isnt fair and regardless of what you say about being able to workaround it, its just not cricket to sell you something that does one thing only to turn around and limit it later on.

 

Regardless what you want to call it, the point remains. We paid the extra money - a lot of extra money - for CPU that performs at a specific level. But now, thanks to this BIOS update, this performance level is reduced. Further, Dell advertises the original Extreme specs, even though all machines shipping with the A08 will not have these specs!

True, we can avoid this by simply not flashing the BIOS. Again, that's not the point. We will miss out on virtually every other fix because we want to avoid crippling our machines.

The option in a BIOS update sounds like a fair compromise to me...

 

i agree, but the more unhappy extreme cpu users who post, the better. it shows that it's not just a "few" users who are affected and the vast majority are happy with A08. that way, Brian can convey to engineering team that the majority of different extreme cpu owners want a solution to A08 performance problem.

 

Im not even an xm owner but im so unhappy that Dell is shafting its customers again....or so it seems....i know it doesnt directly affect me but it DOES if i update to A08 and then wish to upgrade to an extreme cpu.....if i wanted to do that, Dell have physically made it not worthile by limiting its performance.......and for why???, thats what i would like to know....why has Dell engineering done this to our beloved M17's? - if there is a plausible explanation, id love to hear it.

 

whatever it takes to get Dell to fix this...

 

i think that Brian got the message, so no need to iterate this over and over again.

 

Dell is just begging for a lawsuit on this. False and fraudulent advertising. Misleading consumers into believing they are getting something they are not is illegal and unethical. They should pull that bios.

 

You want results talk to the right people.
Email address for people listed below
http://consumerist.com/2007/11/email-addresses-for-19-dell-executives.html
http://consumerist.com/2008/11/email-michael-dell.html

Michael Dell
Chairman and CEO


Donald Carty
Vice Chairman and CFO



Ronald Garriques
President, Global Consumer Group



Michael Cannon
President, Global Operations



Mark Jarvis
Senior VP and Chief Marketing Officer



Lawrence Tu
Senior VP, General Counsel



Susan Sheskey
Senior VP, Chief Information Officer



Andrew Esparza
Senior VP Human Resources



Paul Bell
Senior VP and President, Americas



Stephen Felice
Senior VP and President, Asia



David Marmonti
Senior VP, President, Europe, Middle East and Africa



Brad Anderson
Senior VP, Business Product Group



Jeffrey Clarke
Senior VP, Business Product Group



Martin Garvin
Senior VP, Worldwide Procurement



Alex Gruzen
Senior VP, Dell Product Group



Joan Hooper
Vice President, Finance, Chief Accounting Officer



William Gray
Board of Directors

 

Posting personal email addresses is against the forum rules. if you want to link to the page which you obtained these, fine. Do not post them here.

Sorry - rules are clear on this. Link to the source.

Thanks.

 

Poor Brian, I really feel for that poor guy. You really should get hazard pay for dealing with users like us ;-)

 

I agree - I hope we didn't scare him away - we're a very passionate bunch - we want every bit of power

N

 

Brian might seem like he's in the firing range, but the fact is, our complaints are generally directed towards the engineering team. Brian is more of a middle man between us end users and the engineering team. and make no mistake, despite the complaints that we make, they are never directed toward Brian in any way. He is actually doing a very good job at conveying our messages and finding towards the engineering team. Im sure without his help, we would not have made much progress in having the latest 5870 driver and vbios.

 

With regards to my comments earlier, others are right, Dell engineering and marketing are entirely differant entities, but they need to work in tandum. When Dell sells me a system stating that it turbo boosts ot xxx speed, then thats what I'm going to pay for and thats what I'm going to expect. Engineering needs to work with marketing to back what the marketing department is advertising. Somone in the Dell coorporation needs to open the communication between marketing and engineering. They expect customers to be satisfied with a product that will not perform as advertised? Especially when decisions are based on advertising? True, I know they essentially put "crippled extreme CPU" in the bios discription, but what happens to the enthusiast that purchases a system with a 920XM/940XM and it ships with BIOS A08? Is he expected to read every driver discription on the website?

With regards to Brian, theres no need to shoot the messenger, not saying anyone is, becuase they are not, but just putting it out there. Brian and all else know that our critique is aimed at the engineering/marketing teams. Brian has our best interest in mind, but he is governed by his job. He's been exceptionally helpful Other Dell personnel have jumped from the NBR ship because of poor interaction with members. I'd like to keep brian around as he goes above and beyond.

 

I don't think we will get the result we need unless it goes higher up the food chain, as it is we waited almost a year to get a touch pad fix that turned out to be a total bust, look 6 or 7 posts back for a list of names and email address of people to let know the problems we have.

 

I know, but reading though 25 pages of bashing the company you work for, it still takes a strong stomach even if you aren't responsible. I know we have a saint working for us with Brain on board, it is just he is owed a few extra beers.

As for marketing and engineering, well, we can all dream. But we are talking about a team that coined the phrase "1200p" and another team that just wants to remove as many "trouble tickets" as fast as possible. And let us not forget the famous selling of 4GB ram on a Napa platform that could only see 2.5GB.
Our voice does matter, and our knowledge helps allot of people looking for guidance though this murky world we call "enthusiast technology". We are in a sense doing someones paid work for them, but we also should realize that being vigilant consumers is just as important as being vigilant citizens. And by-golly, sometimes the only answer is to put matters into our own hands (thank god for Throttle Stop!).

 

completely agree...

I feel sorry for all the XM users, but i'm not sure all the engineering team comes to read all these forum posts, especially to get flamed... Only Brian does, it seems and thanks to him for doing us this favor.

I you really want a group action to help, prepare a clear and clean mail with all the names of the people here, their setups, their client numbers and links to posts on this forum and elsewhere (the more laptop specialized websites the better)... and send it to head of the M17x engeering team, Brian might give this email in PM I believe.

I believe that flaming abusively against A08 here will get us nowhere...

my 2 cents...

 

So are these lol

 

I spoke to engineering earlier today and made a few proposals to them - will let you know what they come back with when I get a response...

Has anyone done any actual benchmarking with the new BIOS versus the old? 3dMark? If so, can you post your results? I'm curious to see what the real world decrease is...

Thx.

 

XM guys this is your chance!

Create a new thread just for these benchmarking results!

GO GO GO!

thank you Brian