M17xR2 Bios A08 Discussion Thread

I know that the SSD problem is very important to those of you who have
SSDs and want them to work right. But in mho I think that a seperate
sub-forum would be better than trying to mix the current problem with A08
bios and the SSD problem. I have seen Brian respond in many of the other
sub-forums so I am sure that you will have his ear there also. The SSD
problem is important enough to warrant its own disussion string. Don't get
me wrong, you can post what you want I just feel that it is a bit OT.

 

Allow me to disagree with you on this. It is not OT for one reason. MSI owners with the MSI GX740 have the option to disable the C states from their BIOS and increase the speed of the SSD
http://forum.notebookreview.com/6644770-post64.html

So if this issue can be addressed through the BIOS of our system I don't see why we should take those posts elsewhere

 

stamatisx,

I really don't want to continue this line of discussion because then I would
be drawing this discussion OT. But I will say that I did not mean to offend
you. I just felt that this discussion is not about general BIOS issues which
would include any adverse effect that it may have on your SSD performance.
As far as I can tell it has been mostly about the turbo ratio limits that Dell
has decided to mess with. But thats all I have to say about this subject.

 

I honestly think the SSD issues should go in their own topic. This post is about BIOS A08, which inadvertently nerfed the extreme procs so this has become the "Fix our extremes" thread essentially. A08 did not nerf the SSDs, that problem has been around and has been mentioned many times. If you want to have it fixed and suggest fixes, even if they are BIOS related, they should be in a "Fix our SSDs" thread so Brian can find SSD issues all in one place and Extreme issues caused by A08 here, in the A08 thread. Maybe a mod could chime in here or something but lets try to stick to A08 issues here in my opinion.

And yes, as far as the PSU issue goes that was proven to be a huge issue with the R1s problems and even one for R2s quite awhile ago. They really need a 300w+ PSU for the maxed out M17x systems. Maybe Brian could suggest that...

 

I would pay for the upgrade in PSU. Though I personally think it should ship out to i7 extreme cpu owners automatically. That may be a little on the Eutopic side of thinking.
It's my understanding that it's a manufacturing and BIOS revision that would be needed. Not a difficult or extremely expensive fix that has been in dire need for awhile, with more than just the R2.
Thanks again Brian. Any testing you need done, I'll try my best to do. I definitely don't have the extreme knowledge that long standing members and others here have, but I believe in becoming an active part of the solution if at all possible. So thanks again for giving us all a voice with engineering.

 

I would also pay for a PSU but it wouldn't help without a new bios, with A07 and new PSU I still have a worthless touch pad with new PSU and A08 I have working touch pad and castrated CPU So I need A09 and maybe new PSU but A09 is for sure.

 

Brian: Add me to the list of users that would purchase a new PSU if offered, assuming the A09 Bios would fix the multipliers.

 

Ronaldlf, no need to worry, I am not offended and I am sure that that wasn't on your intentions. We are just making a civilized conversation here using arguments

I agree with you, there is no need to further discuss this subject because we will go OT.

Rockwell B1, let's set a few things straight first.

The title of the BIOS is "M17xR2 Bios A08 Discussion Thread" not "M17xR2 Bios A08 - Turbo Boost Issue - Discussion Thread"
The SSD issue has been there from day one and has been reported (at least by me) since the A06 BIOS revision. The same thing applies for the touchpad polling rate issue.
I need to remind you of a couple of other BIOS related issues like the ATA mode, which results to POST issues and the BIOS hangs for a couple of minutes, the change of the default BIOS settings that leads to POST issues and requires the removal of the battery in order to proceed and the eject button issue.

All those are inherited from the first BIOS revision till the last one which is the A08. That they are not mentioned here, it doesn't mean that they seized to exist or that any other forum member that has a problem related to those issues mentioned above cannot post anything about them due to the fact that this thread is mostly occupied by Turbo Boost related posts.
I have both an extreme CPU and a SSD and I am interested equally for both of those matters (I understand that members with HDDs don't share the same opinion and are mainly interested for the CPU fix).

You can't ask though for a dedicated thread for the SSD issue, simply because the same should apply for the rest of the BIOS issues mentioned above.

Also keep in mind that the Turbo Mode issue of A08 BIOS affects only the owners of extreme CPUs contrary to the SSD issue that affects everybody that has an SSD installed irrelevant of CPU model.

Rockwell, I understand your point and for that I am willing to continue our conversation on a PM level. If the SSD issue or any other issue is not relevant to the A08 BIOS Discussion Thread, I am pretty sure Batboy or the rest of the moderators will remove it.

 

Ummmm... everybody? or perhaps only those with SSDs...

 

Post edited

 

well im not with you on this one. i would expect dell to give out the new more powerful psus for free for those with extreme processors. and also ship out free with all new r2s with extreme processors. only those who buy an extreme processor on ebay/smth else and install themselves should need to pay for the new psu.

reason? this laptop costs close to seven thousand dollars and the extreme processor upgrade from dell by itself is 1.4k. surely that is enough for dell to hand out new psus for free considering THEY screwed up.

 

I'd have to agree there. If it was a desktop machine, I don't think there would even be a discussion about having to pay to replace an internal PSU which had been under-specced for the configuration it shipped with. Why is the discussion any different just because it's an external adaptor?

Of course, that's only relevant if the brick really is under-powered...

 

I would also say that those customers who ordered a crossfire 5870 set up should also benefit from a more powerful power supply which should again be provided free of charge - wether or not they have an extreme cpu. My two peninies worth.

 

I haven't discussed the SSD issue but have mentioned it frequently in this thread. I have feared all along that part of A09 or future BIOS revisions will include a fix for the SSD's and then I will end up using TS + the new BIOS so I can have SSD's that haven't been neutered in the 4K dept.
It's the most prominent reason I want a change for the BIOS to switch these multiplier's settings. I don't want to be forced into this kind of decision. And though I think UncleWebb has made an excellent product, we shouldn't HAVE to use it to keep our performance.
So, on the LIST of things to fix:
-SSD 4K read/write
-Turbo Multiplier Switch between Intel default and 'as shipped' in BIOS for extreme cpu's
- Tweaked Pointer fix (someone posted that the performance degrades over time,needs verification or at the least more testing)
Side Note: An upgraded PSU to handle the demands of extreme CPU/Crossfire gpus & its programming into the BIOS to make it compatible.

Feel free to add on to this. It's easy to lose sight of the fact that all these issues are important. Performance is what the extreme cpu people paid that extra money for. SSD performance is also imperative. And we should all have a pointer that is functional if the mouse we bought is not connected.
Like I said I would be most happy to pay for the beefed up PSU but a trade in for the old one would be the most agreeable option. (They should send it out for free but realistically is that going to happen? Especially when they are assuming that this BIOS Nerf will keep the problem from occuring)

 

Why just the 5870's? the 4870's consume more power(65W vs 50 W) than the 5870's. So I think it should be to anyone witha crossfire setup and/or a XM CPU.

 

I unfortunately don't have any updates for the SSD issue, although I'm still working it. I'll push again...

There are no plans to go to a larger PSU. Per engineering, the 240 watt is sufficient for this system, regardless of configuration. The only issue around PSU is that you must have a 240 watt if you have dual video cards or an extreme CPU....

 

Guys, please keep the BIOS wish list, PSU, SSD and other topics to their respective threads (or start a new one). Let's keep this specific to A08. There are no improvements to SSD performance in what will be A09. That will be worked as a seperate issue.

Thanks - just want to avoid confusion here.

 

Good update Brain, if not exactly good news. We eagerly await your return from the bowels of engineering....

ps - any hint on what WILL come with A09?

 

Okay so the SSD is a non-issue for A08/A09, understood and point taken. But the pointer issues are part of the fix within A08 as are the issues with the multiplier changes that radically impacted performance in real world applications.
As per prior testing the pointer fix is not exactly working as expected. There was degradation found over a period of time.
And the mention of the upgraded PSU was in response to the testing that was performed.

I apologize if that seemed off topic but I honestly thought that the simplest and easiest fix for throttling was an upgraded PSU and BIOS revision to support it thus alleviating the need to change the multipliers in the BIOS and taking the performance hit with A08 and each subsequent BIOS revision.

If Engineering has taken the stance that the multipliers are going to stay as is... I would like to go on record as making a purchase under the pretense of a certain performance level and in order to run 3D software and play both gpu/cpu intensive games. The system as shipped was sufficient however with the new BIOS and with no plans of returning said performance levels, the laptop is no longer viable as the performance machine it was advertised as, at time of purchase.

Once again Brian, thank you for giving us a voice with engineering.
For me it is getting to a point where I am going to have to make a serious decision and I don't look forward to it. I would love to keep my laptop, the return period is over, but if I will have a potentially crippled laptop by refusing to update to future BIOS' because I refuse to lose the performance... well it seems I personally am running out of options.

 

what makes you guys believe they would admit it if throttling was a PSU unit deficiency thus taking the cost to replace all PSU units sold till now, at least on those machines with dual gpus or extreme cpu or especially both?

note: i am pretty sure that GTX480 is not out yet (if ever will be) due to PSU units deficiency.

 

I feel ya infernia. I too agree that a BIOS/PSU is what is truly needed here since it has been proven time and time again that 240 is not enough. But at the very least the multipliers should be put back to where they were or have the option in further BIOS to switch. But how engineering can blatantly ignore proof that 240 is not enough is beyond me. Besides the tests Joker just ran and all the stuff others have provided before, what would be able to convince them otherwise I'm starting to wonder.

I was never impressed with the thouchpad tweak. With drivers it would only reach 60Hz when it should be at 80+ with drivers. I don't want to lose the option of multi touch and stuff and have to go with no drivers just to reach 80. It should be at 80+ with the drivers just like every other notebook I've had. My Viao gets 84Hz and it cost me less then $800, this thing is closer to $4500.

I'm also at a point with the crippling thing. First I had to fight to have my R1 replaced with an R2 because all R1s are faulty and don't run right, especially maxed out like mine was. And now my R2 is being crippled from how it should be/was and what I need it to be. I know my return period is over too but if it comes to it I will fight for a full refund and find some other system, at this point I'd give up my portability and build one sweet custom desktop things are becoming so old concerning these systems. I bought this thing for work/schooling. I'm a Game Artist so having an Alienware was my first choice because it should be capable of playing all the games I want it to as well as handling all the rendering and game engines when I'm working on projects, and it was portable to boot which was a huge plus. If I have to I'll go back to running windows on the MBP for my portable game rig since the Viao is pure basic web surfer and be stuck to a desktop for rendering only.

/ends rant

 

A bit of background on these stickies of mine...

For each BIOS/display driver/Command Center released, you will notice I typically create a sticky for discussion. This is done to not only call attention to the update but also to provide everyone with a highly visible discussion thread to post issues/compliments, etc. This has proven very effective in resolving or addressing issues as we have a handful of AW reps trolling the forums.

Now, to address the question of what belongs in this specific thread. This is a BIOS discussion. Posing questions concerning other areas which may or may not be impacted by a BIOS update is fine as long as it does not derail the thread. If an issue is serious enough (yes, I agree the SSD 4k read/write issue is a big one), it does deserve its own thread. Problem with this is many have created multiple threads on the matter as opposed to sticking with one thread which helps from a visibility standpoint. This is also complicated by the fact this is impacting not just the M17xR2 but many other notebooks. So, moving forward, I ask that anyone wanting to participate in the SSD discussion as it relates to the M17xR2 begin posting here:

http://forum.notebookreview.com/ali...ssd-speed-issue-investigation-discussion.html

Stamatisx has documented this issue very well and I will attempt to gather all of his data posts and link them in the thread I referenced above. *Stamatis, PM me if you would like to re-work the discussion thread for the SSD issue*
As Brian (AW Rep) has stated, this is being looked at by AW and I know Brian will continue updating the community as he receives new information. Brian, if you would be kind enough to bookmark the above thread for reference

Concerning the PSU point which has been made over the last few pages of this BIOS sticky - If one of you would like to create a dedicated discussion thread on this for better visibility, please do so.

The pointer discussion is 100% appropriate for this thread as it was part of the BIOS update.

If you have any questions, requests, comments on this post, please take it to PM and contact me via that route.

Thanks everyone.

 

Don't quote me on this yet, but my understanding is that the A09 BIOS will basically take A07 and add the EC changes from A08 to correct the touchpad performance. This would obviously remove the clock changes made in A08. Once I have confirmation, you'll know here.

 

Sorry Brian - I just 'quoted' you... (joke)

Thanks again for presenting these issues to AW Eng folks.

 

Thanks for the update.
I can only hope since I dont want to be nerfed... Any reason as to why we did see some of the issues Brian of getting 80hz without driver then 60 with and then when the driver was removed it would go to 40? Is there some refining on the bios change to make sure this doesnt happen? Also is there going to be an updated touchpad driver to get us up to 80 ish with all the synaps features?

 

If this proves to be the case I will be one happy Alienware owner. It will mean that they are actually listening to what we have to say. Thank you for continuing to be part of the NBR community and providing us feedback as to whats going on.

Matt

 

Here is a semi-BIOS related question:

If,when the A09 bios comes out, I decide to update my bios (to fix my touchpad and to allow for future cpu expansion) will this mean that I must re-install my lojack for laptops?

I understand from their website that with the my 17x their tracking software (or some part of it) is embedded in the firmware...to prevent removal by the more intelligent thieves. But if I flash the bios, will that get rid of the "activation" the software does when I first install it?

I guess I could just reinstall it anyway to make sure...but I was just curious what the BIOS loving world thought?

 

no the activation aka slic is part of the bios you will download from dell thus no need for reactivation

 

Brian, thanks for the update. Glad to see that our testing, and voices were heard in the engineering world and they are considering their options. Makes everything worth while for them to just look at it and be open to our suggestions. If you recieve any word, and can do so, let us know their reasoning behind thier solutions regarding the the CPU changes. Thanks again, your liaison work is an invaluable part of the forum.

 

You've been lied to. Do you *really* want me to get into it?

 

Can you check if the engineers are working on the FSB speed and sleeping issue too?

 

Might want to link to the discussion thread for this ils so Brian can reference it.

 

Just want to add my thanks to Brian for his continued dedicated support for all of us Alienware owners....truly commendable actions and I am sure, heartfelt thanks from everyone.

Its really good to have someone from Alienware here who works with us and alongside us, knows our concerns and actions them wherever possible.

Thanks alot Brian.

 

Brian,
Thank you, I have had one of the first M17's with the dual 5870's and have had trouble since the first day. I spent 4K for the a laptop that was not up to par, I have had heated communications with Dell techs more than I want to admit and have spent a ton of hrs reloading the 5870 drives etc, but folks like you that will work with us makes a big difference. I'm calm now and will wait for dell to fix it.

Thank You!

LeeU

 

Yes, I wrote that issue up in our database and submitted it to them, but I don't have an update yet. I'll follow up. Note that it almost certainly is an issue with the S3 BIOS code and other things (like the touchpad) have been eating up cycles. They'll get to it when they can I'm sure...

 

Brian, you can NEVER go on vacation again!

 

I though Joker made a very good case (with plenty of data as evidence) that the 240w PSU was NOT enough for the folks with the uber configs (920/940's and dual 5870s and all the goodies).

It would seem that the 240w PSU is fine for my config...and similar ones.

Have you seen what Joker wrote up Brian? (I cant remember where it is...sorry, lame I know)

 

Brian, here is the testing Joker did which shows 240W is insufficient for the extreme CPU w/ 5870CF...

 

Even though this is going to get me flamed, I needs to be said...

The purpose of this thread is to identify and resolve the outstanding issues with the A08 Bios release. Most - if not all - of us were happy with our performance on A07 (sans the touchpad issue, and the SSD issue which is being investigated). Those issues can obviously be resolved without redesigning the entire power distribution design of the notebook.

As Joker even admitted in his own post, 100% utilization across the board in a real-world scenario is extremely unlikely. While it is theoretically possible, so is getting hit by lightning while taking a bath.

Let's let Brian and the engineering folks focus on the major issues we're all seeing (ie. Multipliers, Touchpad and SSD) rather than something that 'could' happen. That's how we got our multipliers dropped in the first place.

 

Please create another thread for this...

Thanks.

 

Dont know if this has already been posted but as I am currently running on A07 and I have the .exe file for it saved on my lappy, I just remembered that I uploaded it on another thread (I think some people thought I had the engineering version of A07 aka holy grail LOL but it is just bog standard A07.

Thought it may be of some interest to those of you out there who MAY wish to flash back to A07....(no responsibility taken if you choose to use the file)

So, here it is:

Box.net | Simple Online Collaboration: Online File Storage, FTP Replacement, Team Workspaces ~ Free Version

Hope its may be of use to those who dont know how to (or want to) use throttlestop.....

 

Previously mentioned several pages back -

A02, A05, A06 and A07 can all be downloaded here straight from Dell Support -

Dell - Support

 

Fair enough, wasnt trying to be backwards with regards to the thread, just thought may be useful for those who needed. My mistake, must have missed that post!

 

No worries Stevie. Some tend to distrust filesharing sources...

 

Point taken.....I was asked in another thread to upload it so i did and just remembered about it and wanted to "spread thhe love" lol

 

Wow! Touchpad is much better, smoother

 

Do we have confirmation that the A08 wont effect those with i7 720/820's? As related to the limitation of the multipliers that some are getting with the extreme edition processors?

 

The better touchpad is amazing! Sooo worth the upgrade to me.

Also, post 1111!

 

Correct, the multiplier limitations only affect those using Extreme CPU's. You will have no loss in performance by flashing to A08.

 

if A09 bios is going to be A07 with touchpad fix then i wonder why its not up yet. Except if the engineers contract says they should post one bios per month the most. lool