New M17x w/580 - Temps and Throttling Concerns

All,

I decided to purchase a new M17x R3 with the 580 video card to replace my M15x. The system arrived yesterday and everything looked great; no dead pixels or anything out of sorts.

I was anxious to spend some game time with it, so I installed World of Tanks, kicked the options to max, and had a great time with it with terrific frame rates (except when zooming... possibly settings tweak required). After about 15 minutes of gaming, my fps dropped instantly from 60fps to 8fps. The fan kicks into high gear and about 30 seconds later, fps returns to 60fps. Then the cycle will repeat every minute or so after that. You can imagine how that messes with your gaming fun.

So, I installed the latest Nvidia driver and monitored temps. I confirmed that the 6fps hits at 77C, so I assume this is the dreaded throttling thing. I thought the new M17x units were supposed to have a less agressive throttling, but this is fairly sudden. It looks like my video bios is the newest, though the "A01" is missing from the version number. I'm not sure what that means, if anything.

The laptop was running on a flat surface, though I didn't try elevating the back of the laptop. It just seems that if propping the back or running a cooler is required, why didn't the machine come with one? I was under the impression that the R3 had great cooling, so this wasn't my expectation.

Since this test was doen straight out of the box, should I expect temps to improve dramatically as the thermal paste settles in? Is this really what I should be expecting from this machine in terms of temps? I know I can prop up the back or run a cooler or re-paste, but it just seems odd that I can't play a game for more than 15 minutes right out of the box. In reading the more recent posts from folks with my config, I seem to see most saying I shouldn't have to worry about reaching that 77C when gaming, only with FurMark.

Will the paste settle and improve things noticeably?

Regards,

R

 

Yes if you are hitting the 77C throttle, then a repaste and rear elevation is needed. If you hitting a throttle in the 60's range, hit up the link in my sig but only if you hit the 60C, if not then it doesn't apply to you. The 77C throttle is not fixable but preventable.

 

You can download and flash the modified 580M vbios files provided by widezu69 from the signature link here: http://forum.notebookreview.com/ali...enchmark-thread-part-4-a-171.html#post8114519. Use 580M.rom initially because it leaves the voltage at .087v, the stock setting. These vbios's don't stop throttling, but they eliminate the effects because the P1 clocks, the clocks that the 580M kicks down to, are the same as the P0 clocks, the normal 3d clocks. However, you need to get GPU cooling under control, so that temps stay below 77-78C. That usually involves repasting and/or revising or replacing the heatsink and/or backplate. Lots of information on the subject in the forum.

 

rix, the stock paste is about as good as it is going to get as far as temps go. Break-in had zero affects on my temps so, It is highly recommended to repaste with a quality paste like prolimatech PK-1 or AC Mx-4.

I know it sucks that you have to do all this on a new laptop, but with the 580m, you have to keep your temps down below the 77-79c thermal throttle point.

Although you might not realize it, there is also a power throttle at about 67c. This drops your performance but maybe you haven't noticed it. The link provided in widezu's sig will fix that

A repaste will drop your temps like 10c, maybe more. It dropped my GPU temps 10-15c under load

Elevating the back of the laptop will drop your temps a further ~5c, maybe more (5-8c for me depending on app)

This is how i elevate the back of my laptop for free using 2 small and flat Vitamin Water bottle caps...kinda ghetto, but it works wonders and provides a more comfortable typing angle:

 

I can't detect any performance degradation until I hit the 77C mark, so I assume I'm not having the power throttling issue.

Are my temps par for the course for Dell paste, or do you suspect a poor heat sink fitting or bad paste job (worse than the norm)? How much of an improvement am I going to see from re-pasting?

I guess I struggle a bit with the idea that I should have to re-do the paste at all because I can't run a game for more than 15 minutes straight from the box. Maybe I just need to get past that, but I suppose I have this crazy expectation that a $2k laptop should work as advertised. My other option is to return it and go for the 6990 I suppose.

 

You can if you like. They are both similar. Slick posted what you can expect from a repaste and rear elevation. To be honest. I always have any laptop propped up and I repaste everything I own.

I even contemplated pasting the bit where my plates touched the heatpads in my George Foreman Grill.

 

Yeah, I read (and continue to read) the forums on the throttleing issue before I posted and saw the fix you're describing. But, as you suggested, temps will still need to be under control (which is mostly why I decided to post a new topic). Of course, if temps were under control, it wouldn't hit 77C and throttle in the first place, I suppose.

My machine was built just a couple of days ago, so can I assume I have the latest heatsink?

 

You should have the latest and greatest. Just do a repaste and elevate you'll be fine.

 

OK, so basically the temps I am seeing are "as expected" (i.e. reaching 77C after a few minutes of gaming). If so, there is no point in asking Dell to fix this or replace the machine. If I want to keep this unit with the 580, I need to consider elevating the back and re-pasting.

The other option would be returning this unit and requesting one with the 6990, which as I understand it would avoid the throttling issue. But from what I'm reading, they run even hotter and a re-paste may be recommended for the 6990, too.

I just have to bring myself to take the risk of opening a new $2k laptop up for the re-paste.

Thanks a ton to everyone for the feedback. Now I just need to decide which course to take.

Regards,

R

 

zero throttling on the 6990's and at stock, your temps will be liveable with stock paste. You should still raise the back of your laptop up though...or use a cooling pad (if you don't want to go with a homegrown solution)

i went the first few weeks on the stock paste and having my laptop flat on the desk with zero issues while gaming

 

Good deal. What sort of temps are expected stock on the 6990?

As I understand it, you have to rely on Dell for driver updates on the 6990. Dell isn't typically know for regular driver updates, especially as a model gets past a year old. Any thoughts on that?

Thanks again,

R

 

I've had zero issues downloading drivers from AMD directly (maybe i'm one of the lucky ones? who knows...but i can't be the only one able to do this). i'm currently using the 11.11a performance driver and installed 11.8, 11.9, 11.10 rc1. All without issues. There are some people with issues, but in computers, its hard to diagnose what it is as we can have vastly different configurations

There are some people with CrossFire setups with 4870s/5870s in m17x R2's that have some issues.

 

Well, I talked to Dell and explained my concerns and they actually suggested switching the rig out for one with the 6990 and offered me an incentive to do so, so I'm considering that option.

Thanks to everyone for their feedback, I really appreciate it. At the end of the day, a $2k laptop should work well right out of the box. The 6990 might deliver on that, though I do see a number of posts about driver installation issues from AMD.

Thanks, guys!

 

After noticing a number of posts about BSODs, etc, installing drivers from ATI, is there a particular driver installation process you use? I thought it would be good to ask since you haven't had issues. I'm guessing it's the steps you use that might be the key to success.

 

Pretty sure that's because you're not using the IGP switching thing You'd only get issues if you trying updating from the stock Dell drivers, but I found a way to update to 11.11a with max 1 BSOD - which may well be due to AMD. We'll see how my method fairs for later versions

 

the switching is workin for me fine (you mean fn + f7?)

 

Rix, i have to really think about how i installed.

as soon as i got my laptop, I installed the SSD and reinstalled windows. I've never ever used the default Dell Image. Fresh copy of windows 7 right away. But i really do have to think about what i did after windows installed

 

You're a lucky one, and the Fn+F7 is the same thing?

 

knock on wood...everything works for me and integrated switching works too. And installing drivers, i just copy over the previous one with the new one. Doesn't matter is its a beta, whql or modded. it just installs. Not one bsod

knock on wood again...

 

You just copy over or use the installer and select display drivers only?

 

i just use the default install everytime. Can't remember exactly what the wording is cause i usually go next>next>next

 

Did you at any point install/reinstall the Dell 6990 drivers?

 

Just did that for 11.12 beta drivers and it worked just fine, weird

 

no. I do not have the dell drivers on my computer at all.

see...i'm not alone lol.

You can do that too!

 

I wonder if the Dell drivers are the source of the conflict and resulting BSODs. If the standard MS supplied drivers for the Intel video are installed first (as they would have been in a fresh install) and then the ATI drivers installed after (without ever installing the Dell video drivers, which apparently include drivers for the Intel video), it avoids the conflict that causes the BSOD? I would imagine that ATI would develop their drivers and test them against the source (Intel) drivers for the onboard video, not a vendor's "tweaked" driver.

Just a thought that could explain your success compared to what others have experienced.

R

 

That's very logical...problem is, i've never had the dell drivers on my laptop since day 1. When i installed windows onto my SSD, i next installed the latest video card drivers downloaded straight from amd. The integrated gpu still works though. i don't know if i'm using a default driver within windows, but i can switch between the ATI vid card and the intel integrated without issues

 

Is the throttling problem the OP described an issue specific to the laptop itself or just the 580m?

Does this issue affect 560m graphics cards in the M17x?

 

It affects all nvidia cards on the m17x...its just that the temps on the 460/560m's are generally lower so they are less affected because they generally don't reach the thermal throttle temps. The 580m can get very hot under load so its the most prevalent

 

So I guess the Radeon is the way to go then.

 

Yes, yes it is. Don't believe what anyone else says - the 6990M is the one to go for.

This is a good read as well: Mobile GPU Comparison: GeForce GTX 580M and Radeon HD 6990M | PC Perspective

The 580M system had an advantage too, hence better BF3 (which is also CPU-heavy) frame rates.

 

Unless you are a bencher or want 3D, 6990m all the way.

 

Fix'd. 1234567890

 

gawd...the 580m isn't getting any love here LOL

 

So pardon my noobness here, but I'm assuming that this is a problem with every Alienware that uses the 580m? Including the M18x?

Does Dell offer any sort of fix for this, or is it something where you're just SOL. I find it hard to believe that they would release a laptop that can play a game for 5 minutes, overheat, and slow to a crawl. I mean, I've seen Dell pull some shoddy designwork before but that just seems... over the top

 

Dell offered up an emergency vbios update for the 580m...but it only lessened the throttle.

If you are going to get the 580m, you will 100% have to update the vbios, repaste the gpu, and maybe employ one of the various fixes found on this forum (for example, look at widezu's sig)


The 580m suffers from two throttle points...a power throttle at 67c, and a thermal throttle at 77c. You can remove the power throttle with widezu's fix or using a modded vbios update, but there there is no fix for the thermal throttle...i.e., if you hit 77-79c on the GPU, your performance will drop like a stone until the temp drops, then the cycle starts again

 

wouldn't have much of a problem up here in Alaska with thermal throttling and i've always liked the nvidia support better than AMD's that said I don't think a $2000+ computer should issues like this out of the box

 

Thanks to everyone for taking the time to provide feedback. As I mentioned, Dell has given me the option to return the M17x w/580 and get another with the 6990 (at a lower price, of course). I still have that choice to make.

In the meantime, I have been playing games while running some thermal tests with the 580 rig. Sitting flat on the desk, Furmark burn test peaks at 77C after 4 minutes and I can see the thermal throttle kick in (turns into a 4fps slideshow). If I raise the back of the laptop 3/4" and repeat that same test, temps peaked at 74C, fluctuated between 72C and 74C and stayed that way for 10 minutes of running it (no throttling noticed), so that does help. I've seen some folks report that gaming never reaches the temps Furmark does, but playing World of Tanks will bring it to 77C (and throttle to a slideshow) fairly easily, so it definately happens during gaming. Repeating the session but raising the back of the laptop again gave me a peak of 72C playing World of Tanks for an hour.

The 6990 apparently doesn't have throttling issues and from what I've read in forum posts the only potential drawback I see is dealing with either waiting for Dell to issue 6990 driver updates or contending with possible BSODs or other errors by using drivers from AMD (apprently your mileage may vary on this one). Apparently, AMD's position is to use the vendor's drivers (something about integrated graphics switching laptops not being supported). I've been a Dell/Alienware customer for years and I've learned not to expect frequent driver updates, especially after the first year.

I guess it's a choice between the lesser of the two "evils".

R

 

@GeoCake, I game for over 3 hours on BF3 on my 580m GTX, OC'd as well. No short gaming sessions for me. No throttling because I've done all that needs to be done to prevent it.

 

.... So are you saying that if I buy a M17x I'm going to be screwed no matter what GPU I pick?

 

No don't be a huge pessimist. Those examples are the worst case scenarios. Sure the 580m gets throttling but that's what the link in my sig is for

AMD experts are always looking for solutions to minimise BSODs and most users don't suffer from it. Most AMD users here are happy with what they have. I sure was when I owned a 6990m for my M15x.

I was happy with my 580m until I heard news of a 4GB 680m but that's just me

 

No, I definately didn't mean to imply anything like that. I have been gaming with my M17x w/580 just fine simply by using the suggestion of raising the back of the laptop. It's a simple thing to do in order to optimize cooling. Any laptop that draws air from underneath would benefit from this (which is why there are so many laptop coolers available). If, however, the temps ever do get high enough with an M17x + 580m, you will throttle. There are other tips offered here, such as re-pasting, etc, that will help keep temps below that point. And there is always the possibility that Dell will reconsider and bump up the throttle temp point with a vbios update, too (they've already made one pass at it).

With the 6990, there have been reports of issues with installing drivers, but that's not a concern if you don't mind waiting for Dell to release certified drivers. You can even use AMD drivers if you are prepared to deal with potential extra installation steps, it seems.

These are enthusiast level, cutting edge performance laptops. So the choice depends on each person's own expectations for their dollar, comfort level with self support, as well as usage circumstances and preferences. I think it's also likely that most people don't even see or realize the above "issues" are even there and go about their merry way happily gaming.

 

my M17Xr3 is delayed for another week and the more i read about it, the more i become worried about the 580m.

Something i never read about.. lets say i dont put skyrim to ULTRA (if it existe) and just put it to HIGH.. could i prevent throttling from being a lil less hot ? or will we pretty much always throttle even on low setup becose the 580 is just a hot mama ?

 

it will help, and don't be worried about it, if throttling causes a huge problem for you, just return the laptop and grab one with the 6990m. You got a 21 day return period for a reason

 

If this throttling is such a huge issue, then why aren't more people complaining? I see a bunch of cases here, but if this is something that's causing people's FPS to drop to 10-15 and lower every 5 minutes I'd think there would be more mass outcry. Dell would have to issue a recall for something like that. How do you pay thousands for a laptop that has an issue like this?

 

not everybody even sees the throttling, I doubt I would up here in Alaska. The cool ambient temps combined with my laptop always being elevated make for a very effective cooling system

 

does it void the warrenty to re-paste your cpu/gpu ?

 

So is this more of an environmental thing? I live in Oklahoma and my apartment is, to put it bluntly, F-ing cold.

 

nope just be careful when you do it

ambient temps do have an effect on the temps because if its cooler outside, it helps keep cooler air running through the GPU/CPU fans. its always around 60-70F in my house, so not to cold, but I could always could turn off the heat for a bit if I really need to bench or something

 

Would this work?

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B003GCQ1YI/ref=cm_sw_r_an_am_ap_am_us?ie=UTF8

 

might work, but if you are looking to save money just prop up the back with a book or bottle caps. I'll take a pic of my setup when I get my m17x back from dell tonight