Problems with Optimus

So I got my laptop today.. and wouldn't it be my luck that the one 3D application I was looking forward to using on it most will not, no matter what I try, run on the 460m.. I set up a profile, even tried right clicking to select the GPU.. but it always uses the Intel, giving me HORRIBLE performance.

I bought the M17xR3 to get away from performance issues in that particular program, but as it stands it's actually performing worse than a netbook, and all because of it not using the discrete graphics when it should be...

Does anyone know how to fix this? I can't find any way to disable Optimus, yet the overrides toted to be in the nVidia control panel aren't working..

 

what's the application?

 

Phoenix Viewer.. though I've heard that all other Second Life viewers do the same.. haven't tried them yet.

 

join the club...i thought i was the only one 'cept i am running the non 3D version with 460M

 

@paradigm018: I'm running the same configuration. Non 3D version with a 460m.

A BIOs option/hack to get me a way to disable optimus' 'hybrid' mode would be great.

 

After much time with technical support it seems this issue will not be fixed. For all those who bought a M17X with a 460m and 60hz display and are still within the trial period, I strongly suggest a return in exchange for the current 120hz 3D system, which appears to be on sale. Push them to waive the restock fee if at all possible.

Optimus is clearly an immature, somewhat defective technology, and with no way to shut it off (Dell is either ignoring the presence of a BIOS level switch that was locked, or they cut some corners and are using a bus for 60hz displays that doesn't support the 120hz screen, making the two different at a hardware level), I'd say the configuration itself has a major design defect.

 

I totally agree.

 

While I wait for Dell's systems to get back online so I can decide whether to return my M17x for a less troublesome model, I'm hoping to work with some devs from the Phoenix Viewer project to try and find out more about what's going on between the viewer and the display driver that could be causing the problem.

If I can I'd also like to somehow get in touch with someone from nVidia in the hope that they could shed some light on how Optimus technology works from a developer's perspective to further help in understanding what could be going wrong.

As I said before, Dell denies that the system is capable of running with the optimus technology turned off, even though some basic knowledge of parts standardization and simple logic will clearly reveal otherwise. But on that note, has anyone here tried putting a Radeon GPU into a M17xR3 that was shipped with nVidia graphics? I'm curious to see if it's recognized and if so, whether the Fn+F7 key combination begins to work after the proper drivers are installed. This would give insight into exactly how standardized the parts are, and how the motherboard and its display ports interact with the GPUs.

My theory is that all the display ports/connectors are on the motherboard, and the BIOs and chipset is what's deciding whether the port goes to the Intel IGP or the discrete GPU. This would mean that Dell's assertion that a system cannot turn off optimus technology for hardware reasons is a lie, and that a BIO setting is indeed possible. So please share if you've tried putting a Radeon in a system that shipped with nVidia graphics or a GeForce in a system that shipped with AMD graphics. It'd really help.

 

aww sugar...does that mean i either buy the 6970/ a 460M and 3D 120Hz screen

but i like the Optimus tech. the battery life with the integrated GPU is pretty awesome......there has to be someone here using a non-3D 17r3 and with a working optimus...i cannot believe this scenario........ how can all the AW M17X r3 not support optimus

 

It does support Optimus. The problem is that in a config where you have nVidia paired with a 60hz screen, you can't get Optimus to turn off, and in some cases it may interfere with gaming, particular older games or unusual gaming environments like Second Life.

So you can get the 460m with a 60hz screen and have Optimus, just don't expect it to work 100% with all your games/apps, and be aware there's no way to deactivate it in the event you find yourself in a situation where either it doesn't work with a game you want to play (leaving you stuck on the IGP), or you want to use the discrete card in another OS like Linux (again, you'll be stuck with the IGP).

 

I've been saying for over a year that Optimus is garbage. I actually own an Optimus laptop now and the technology is nothing but a total PITA.

It's funny how Nvidia thinks their consumers are too lazy to press Fn+# to manually switch graphics, which is proven, simpler than Craptimus, and a surefire way to get the performance or battery life you're looking for.

It boggles my mind that I feel like I'm in the minority of tech enthusiasts to point this out, and every mainstream review laughably praises the technology while never pointing out any of its laundry list of flaws/shortcomings.

 

It's actually even more mind boggling how little true support there is for people having issues with Optimus. Whether it's Dell or Nvidia, asking for a simple method to disable this god-forsaken software results in both parties throwing their arms smugly into the air and saying, "Sorry, no can do."

 

It's bad enough (Optimus) that I actually had to think twice about it before purchasing my XPS 15. For what I needed the system for, the XPS 15 is the perfect machine for me. But I actually sat on there on the Dell configurator going, "Am I really about to buy a laptop with the technology I've sworn to hate?" Sure enough, I bought it thinking I was making a bigger deal about it than it really is, and sure enough, I'm having a ton of issues with it.

So in short, I feel your pain.

 

Yeah... :/ I could return the machine but I'm already kinda attached to it and don't wanna argue with support to get the restock fee waived. Not to mention the sale on the 3D model will probably have ended by the time they bother to refund me so I can reorder.

I've sent in a request for help from the Phoenix Viewer support team in debugging the interactions between the optimus driver and the apps that aren't working with it, to see exactly where the problem lies, and who should be responsible for fixing it. With Dell's rather lacking BIOS for the R3 the most promising thing at the moment is if someone figures out how to unlock it, giving users the ability to turn it off from there.

But overall, I think they should have stuck with a Fn key combination, or at least made it a configurable option for nVidia systems. If they had left it at that, 3D machines might also have graphics switching. It's also what I understood would be present when I bought the machine.. not this automatic crap. I guess upper management still hasn't realized that looking good on paper doesn't necessarily mean it will work in practice. *sigh*

So has anyone ever tried putting a Radeon card into a R3 system that shipped with a GeForce, or vice versa? Knowing what happens in that case would help with clarifying exactly how the hardware is set up, and what features it -really- has in terms of GPU switching.

 

@Tzolkat, so you're saying that your 460M is working for some games

dude i have ME,ME2,GTA4,GTA4 ELFC,Battlefield BC2,FarCry2, nothing is triggering the optimus to work properly


PS i actually started a thread in the similar vein not too long ago....

http://forum.notebookreview.com/alienware-m17x/578626-optimus-m17xr3.html

 

Aside from you complaining about something that isn't going to change, what games do you have that are not working correctly with it?

FWIW, I haven't had a single issue with any of my games, even the old ones. Optimus always seems to get it right.

 

Out of your list there, I play ME2, BC2, Farcry2 and all of them trigger the GPU correctly.

What type of modifications (if any) have you made to your system? Have you tried installing a non-dell released NVIDIA driver?

 

i have made no modifications to the base system....

i did try the 257.27 (and used Darcoder's moded inf) to no avail
I have downgraded the BIOS to A03= no help
i have downgraded NV drivers to 266.08= no help
i have upgraded Intel drivers= No help
I have installed all the latest Chipset drivers (follwing Batboy's link on "drivers available for the M18X") = no help
i even "attempted" to use NV drivers for the M14X (maybe somehow i'd be able to use the Optimus package from it, and since all NV drivers are Verde...)= no help (no use either it just states incompatibile adaptor)
Modded drivers= no help ( few install and few'er BSOD, the rest do the same as the package from Dell)

 

Just speculating here, but I think your Optimus problem may be related to installing all those modded/third party drivers.

Again, my system is completely stock with only dell-released drivers installed, and everything seems to work fine.

I would recommend a fresh start by reinstalling all the latest Dell released drivers again (m17x versions only) and seeing how it goes from there. You can't just update these laptops willy-nilly with third party or modified drivers... the hardware is very different than a desktop machine that you build yourself. There are code dependencies written into the NVIDIA drivers that are hardware specific for the M17x. You would be negating that by installing a modified generic driver from the NVIDIA website or from someone else.

Good luck with it

 

@ryan_calif: I have not modified the drivers at all (I've only had the system for a couple of days, no time to change anything), and yet I have issues with Optimus in Second Life. And newer nVidia drivers are confirmed working on an ASUS machine, with Optimus working correctly in said app. The obvious fact to me at the moment is that Dell is doing a poor job supporting the hardware. The drivers provided are old and don't work correctly in several games.

 

I am also of the opinion that Optimus is, to put it as delicately as possible, a total flop.

You can try complaining/reporting here. If your reports are structured and detailed well enough, you may even get a response (which seems to be exceedingly rare)

 

@kunekaden: Well, if it's confirmed that both nVidia and Dell/other computer companies are turning a deaf ear, then maybe it's time to complain to a regulatory agency instead.

 

I fully support that state of mind.
Alternatively, you can just speak to Dell support until they agree to send you a replacement with 6970 free of charge (or a 3D enabled system) due to fail implementation of fail technology, then providing fail support.
Here's a link to the proper division of the BBB's complaint form. BBB strongly urges consumers to attempt finding a solution before using their services, but will forward all cases to the parties involved.

 

I wondered briefly if they would just send me a complementary 6970 and let me take care of the installation myself/with supervision of a Dell certified technician. That way I would still have the nVidia card in case they ever came to their senses, and in the meantime wouldn't have to worry about Optimus. Probably wouldn't happen, but it would be optimal. I'm paranoid about returning the system altogether because apparently I otherwise got a good one and I don't trust Dell to do it a second time.

I only got the nVidia option because Second Life is not known for being stable with AMD/ATI cards, and it's one of the main games I play. I never knew that Optimus was going to turn out to be such a pain in the you-know-where.. I actually thought that it was a manual switch via Fn+F7.

 

Any further attempts to contact technical support is going straight to voicemail even during business hours. I'd say that's a failure to provide a resolution. :/

 

Tzolkat, I had the exact same problem with Phoenix Viewer when I used the more recent drivers from Dell, but when I downgraded back to 266.08, Phoenix Viewer does use the 460m. I know paradigm018 has said that this has not worked for them in regards to other games, but it did work for me with Phoenix.

To me that means that the fault lies with the drivers. We can hope that the next official rev from Dell fixes the issue, but I don't know.

 

I'm just short of returning my system for a 3D-vision enabled version instead, though I'm really NOT looking forward to that process, even though I've gotten the request process started (Couldn't complete because of the system being down, again. Bad luck, or fate?)..

The games I have or would want to have besides Phoenix are Audiosurf, Half-Life 2, Garry's Mod, Left 4 Dead, Left 4 Dead 2, Portal, Portal 2, Team Fortress 2, and Torchlight. All of those are via the Steam platform, and I don't play anything else. I rarely play most of the games in that list, in fact..

So would I be okay on the older drivers? I'm willing to unbox again and test if it's possible. paradigm018's system and mine are practically carbon copies in terms of configuration and build quality besides this issue and our game prefs. The only diff might be my system having 8GB in 2 DIMMs instead of 4 like the website config.

 

@Roykirk: After a bit of a rocky uninstall process (apparently I didn't get rid of it all during the first pass), and installing the older drivers (266.08), Phoenix is confirmed to be working fine on my machine. Thank you for the suggestion.

 

aww man.. i feel kinda left out

Update: i have run 3D Vantage.....and gives a std: exception+full screenstate lost error

 

Nah don't feel left out. I got a new error now.. every time the system so much as hiccups or windows updates the drivers stop working and I have to reinstall them. x_x

 

Bleh stupid distractions.. I accidentally wrote the same thing twice.

 

Agreed have returned 9 laptops with Optimus tech. ( every one I owned )whoever came up with that " miracle " piece of garbage should be shot.

Drivers seem bad from all manufacturers and even Nvida themselves. the final rendering THROUGH the IGP makes it unstable as heck in Photoshop, CAD, MAYA, 3DsMAX, and many more. caused isues with punkbuster games for ages ( not sure if its resolved yet ) and in the case of many machines I had the battery life was not better as the discreet card would NOT power down just stay running and not show up.

OPtimus vs non Optimus setups with the same discreet card seem to how that the switching unitstake a noticable performance hit as well. ( have not looked into any imprvementslast 6 mos admittedly )

and to top it all off they decided not to support any other OS than windows, Nvidia USED to have a large market in the Linux/UNIX crowd but managed to completly tick off that group with ZERO support. barely more than those of us running windows.

 

After some testing, I've found that there may be another variable in this puzzle. Besides the obvious politics of multi-national corporations working with each other (Namely Intel, nVidia, and laptop manufacturers), that is.

After experiencing major instability and BSODs on my system using the 266.08 drivers from Dell's website, I decided to try rolling back the Intel drivers as well. So far, I've encountered far less instability after doing this, suggesting that its not just the nVidia drivers that are the problem. On some level, the nVidia Optimus drivers are likely communicating with the Intel drivers on the system, which may be where the issues are cropping up in a lot of cases.

Only time and testing will prove or disprove that theory, but I figured I'd post it up anyway in case it helps a few people here.

 

UPDATE: The system has encountered no further stability issues (eg. Random BSODs) after doing a rollback on both the nVidia and Intel drivers to the A00 revisions from Dell's website.

If you're interested in trying this for whatever reason, here's how I did it:
Uninstall nVidia drivers from Programs and Features, making sure to uninstall the graphics driver last. Reboot.
Run Driver Sweeper or a similar program to get rid of any residual data. Reboot.
Install the older Intel drivers (2246, A00 from Dell website). Reboot.
Install the older nVidia drivers (266.08, A00 from Dell website). Reboot.

And then you /should/ have no more random BSODs while running 266.08. If anyone tries this, let me know if it worked, and also if any of the games that were stuck on the Intel IGP in the newer drivers are still stuck, and if any additional games became stuck on the IGP. I figure the more we know about how Optimus works and what influences its functionality, the more effective we'll be at troubleshooting its quirks.

 

@ Tzolcat.....maate, good idea, but did you read the description in on site...these Dell's INTEL A00's are meant for non-hybrid (aka optimus machines)

which means one of two things
either there is a ? software switcheroo to enable or disable IGP ( not optimus)

either the NVIDIA card stays on permanently...and we have a Dell AW M17Xr3 which is behaving like a G73 (asus SB with 460M minus the optimus and minus the battery life)

 

Where did you read or confirm that? I rly need to know if this is true or not.

Thx in advance.

 

@ Tzolcat....

dude , tried your method, still no dice, GTA4/ELFC does not engage the 460M

@Deex, what tzolcat said, is true, i am suffering from this very issue...now i know for a fact that Optimus does engage when running a benchmark (3D mark series) BUT, load GTA4/ELFC nothing...it only works with thr IGP...which is to say...sucks...... and yes..you CANNOT disengage optimus...i wish i could....then perhaps i wouldnt have this problem.....although i do believe this is a DELL driver issue...so if they fix it ..it will work as intended..... until then....

 

tried using the commandline/-norestrictions .... (GTA4) game starts in full 19*10...but the start up video keeps looping.....(A00 drivers for both nvidia and intel)

 

I'm not really sure what you're trying to say there. Based on personal experience, using the Intel A00 from the site was the only way to get the nVidia A00 driver to stop crashing. As the Optimus version has been around since the R3's release, the drivers on the site -must- support it, all the way back to A00, and after testing this is confirmed.

Hybrid graphics, as I understand it, is not the same as Optimus from a hardware standpoint. I'm not clear on the details of Hybrid graphics, but in Optimus the display itself is wired to the IGP, and the nVidia card and driver just sort of hijacks it. Which is why there's no option to disable it.. There might be a way to do it in the hardware, but it would involve changing the connector that the display was connected to, and I'm not even sure that would work.

If your games still won't play on the older drivers, then you'll likely have to wait for a fix, or support from nVidia. I've tried requesting it for the R3, no word back yet.

 

I learned it from personal experience with my own R3, and confirmed it with tech support after many hours and repeated calls. Also, there's some fine print on the landing page for the R3 at alienware.com, which states that Optimus is not available on 3D-enabled models, which indirectly implies that putting a 460m in the R3 without the 3D kit will cause Optimus to be available.

 

There does seem to be a lot of issues still regarding games in Optimus. What fixes it for one group of games may not fix it for another, and a host of other issues. It all pretty much stems from incompatibilities and bugs in the drivers and how they interact with applications making calls to them and, in the case of Optimus, how the nVidia and Intel drivers make calls to each other. I can't confirm this is what they're doing, but sometimes under pressure to release new drivers a company will band-aid fix unfinished or buggy code for stability, so that the system won't crash, but it won't perform as desired for certain things, either.

If that's the case then it's likely that eventually, once the technology has matured, everything will work fine. One can only hope, really. :/

 

Reviving an old thread, but my recent experiences make it worth the revival.

I've used both the 280.26 and 285.38 Nvidia reference drivers with modded .inf's and had much success in my games. Phoenix and then Firestorm (my new SL viewer of choice) work great with 280.26. Firestorm is also working well with 285.38, but I don't have Phoenix installed anymore to test.

World of Warcraft had significant jumps in frame rates when I went to 280.26. I have yet to test the frame rates using the 285.38 drivers, but along with the bump in speed on 280.26, I was finally allowed to enable the new water graphics at the top setting as well as sunshafts and also run the game in windowed mode with great success.

It's time to give up on any of the Dell drivers for the 460M w/Optimus and go with more recent versions with modded .inf's. I've not had any stability issues with either of the two newer sets of drivers on my setup.

I hope the above info is useful to a few folks.