Would a brand new R3 have the 580M throttle?

Okay, I might be ordering an R3 and need to choose between the 6990M and the 580M.

I'm leaning towards the 580M but all the threads about the throttling issue are putting me off.

I found hints of this but no solid answer, would a brand new machine built today have the throttling issue? (i.e. have they fixed it for new machines, or is it still there?)

Thanks in advance.

EDIT: Just to clarify, I'm not talking about whether the issue has a possible solution once I have the machine (i.e. repaste, etc.), I mean if the issue is completely absent from a new machine.

 

It depends. If the factory installed the heatsinks, pads, and did a good paste job, you shouldn't have any issues with throttling. I think my system was done right, but I haven't opened it up to check.

 

It will have the issue. Some machines will throttle at around 65C which is fixable using my fix. All machines will throttle at 78C but if you have a good paste job and pads etc, it should be fine.

 

I recieved my machine 2 weeks ago and applied the 65C fix, the modded A08 BIOS because of issues with Optimus, and the custom fan mod. I've never had any heat issues. The only time I go above 70C was running FurMark, which I don't do often. I haven't gamed much, but when I do game, I only hit around 63C. Granted I'm not playing anything too intense, but if I did, I think my system would still stay cool because of the custom fan.

 

I game pretty often on this machine and after repasting with MX-4, my temps never go past 72C while gaming. While doing light tasks, it hovers anywhere from 52-56C. Like the others have said, once you apply some decent paste and widezu69's throttle fix, it shouldn't be a problem.

 

My concern is I don't want to mess around with a repaste. I don't feel confident enough to do that. If the 6990M doesn't throttle, then I'd rather just get that as the performance and cost on the two cards are both pretty much identical.

 

The 580m is noticeably faster, IMO has better driver support and I really prefer Optimus to manual switching.

However, the 580m does still have throttle points. You can fix it very safely without ever opening the system by using my guide (and for most games you will never need the HWINFO part, just the first part with Widezu's guide) http://forum.notebookreview.com/ali...x-r3-580m-thermal-throttling.html#post8345887.

If you need a repaste or whatever Dell will do it for free under warranty, since it would be considered a manufacturing defect if it was not properly cooling from the factory. Perfectly installed the stock stuff is really good (according to Dell it is phase change material that is better than any paste we can buy).

There is no reason you would be forced to open the system if you are not comfortable with it. Also, as long as you never admit it to Dell, all of our fixes are very safe and they can't void your warranty (because Dell won't know unless you tell them).

However, if you don't feel up to messing with it, the 6990m is a good card with no throttling at all.

 

Noticeably faster? In the game benchmarks I'm looking at, they appear to be almost equal in almost every game with a difference of around 2-4fps in the higher settings, with the 6990m coming out on top sometimes.

As for flashing the vBIOS and changing the fan speeds, I really don't want to have to do that.

Thanks for the advice, and I agree that ATi drivers are absolutely abysmal (well, in the sense that the Catalyst Control Center is really bloody hard and annoying to navigate compared to nVidia's control panel) but I still think I'd rather go with the 6990m. Plus, I'd prefer manual switching so I can tell it exactly when I want it to use the dedicated card.

 

Evil, based on your approach, the 580m is not for you. With the 580m, you really have to be prepared to repaste and apply software fixes. If you just want to get something and have it working out of the box without any tweaking/repasting, the 6990m is your only choice.

mind you...just to throw a cog in the wheel, you may have to repaste the 6990m eventually too

 

It depends on the benchmarks I guess. I have had both cards, and played the same games on both, and I feel like the 580m is noticeably faster with better image quality. I am often able to do something like crank up the AA to 8X and still get better FPS on the 580 than I did on the 6990m with no AA. Another part of it is the OC potential, on stock voltage you can pretty easily push the 580m to 20% faster than stock with no ill effects.

Still, if you are looking for something that just works with no fiddling then the 6990m is probably the better choice.

A big part of it is the drivers, for example, the latest Nvidia drivers increased Skyrim performance by like 45%, stuff like that is pretty common with Nvidia. Maybe it is for ATI also, I don't have ATI so I don't know.

Just wanted to say, on the conference call Dell was pretty clear that repasting is not required or even beneficial. Properly installed they claim their GPU TIM is better than stuff like Arctic Silver 5 or Arctic Cooling MX paste. They say that often when you repaste you will decrease high-end cooling efficiency (since the stuff they use works best at higher temps, when it turns to liquid).

I know lots of guys repaste and swear by it, but Dell has made it clear that it is not required (and they claim it can be counterproductive). I personally have never done it. If the TIM is not correct or you need a repaste you can always get a tech to do it.

 

I know for a fact that the dell stock paste is NOT meant for best temps...instead it is engineered to last the life of the laptop without the need to repaste.

It is complete BS that the stock paste will give you temps anywhere near those of PK-1, MX-4 etc. Its not possible. They are engineered for different purposes

Dell has to tell you that. They can't tell you that they put inferior paste in. Its not inferior, its just meant for a different purpose...longevity vs best temps. Aftermarket pastes are meant to be redone once a year for max efficiency

Everyone...and I mean 100% of people that repaste will drop their temps 10c+. These are facts.

you can believe Dell all your want, but these are the same people that denied there was a throttling problem with the 580m's until recently. The members on this forum are more knowledgeable in most cases. Our work and discoveries are often quoted by dell as their own. I know one of my posts was quoted pretty much verbatim by a dell tech to another member here with regards to an issue they were having. The dell techs know to come here for knowledge

 

I am just relaying what we were told, and not by some random Dell tech, this was the actual engineer who designed the M17x graphics system. He knew pretty much everything about it, he was the one that made the call to add the throttles, he handpicked the TIM to be used, etc.

He said very specifically that Arctic Silver 5 specifically was less effective than the stock stuff. I don't feel he was lying, and I feel like he has the actual data to back it up (as in the rated heat transfer of both materials).

 

Brand new R3 comes with new updated heat sink which does great job to keep temp. below 78C, its also depend on outside temp.
Recently just for experiment, ive did played Battlefield 3 for about 4 hours with 740 cores and Gpu temp never went above 67C.
Actually, when ive bought it i was totally Nvidia fan, but after research. i can say that 580m and 6990m both are almost same. But while gamin 580m slightly win.

 

I agree, Yoda. And, I don't consider most forum members to be more knowledgeable than Dell/Alienware Engineers; and especially not where it relates to design specs of a given computer system. (I would agree with that comment in relation to Level 1 Support employees. We have tremendous knowledge and talent here at NBR forums.)

It's difficult for anyone that did not attend the call to have a good understanding of all the factors in play. Louis covered a lot of technical information. The other thing to consider is the only temp we are seeing is the core temp. There is a misconception that because the core is only 78°C that there should be ample headroom because 78°C is well below the danger zone. That is true about the GPU core, but it ignores the fact that there are temps in other parts of the GPU that we cannot monitor (such as the voltage regulators) and that is where the critical issues reside. So, while the GPU core may be a totally safe 78°C, other parts of the GPU may be overheating without user knowledge. Most of the concerns on the engineering side have to do with the design of the R3, not the GTX 580M MXM module itself.

There probably is some headroom to increase the core throttle threshold above 78°C without having heat issues leading to failure in parts of the card that users cannot effectively monitor temps, but doing so breaks the specs that Dell abides by and we cannot expect them to intentionally ignore standards. While most of us may not care about Dell's "skin temps" specs and internationally regulated standards, we cannot expect Dell Engineers to ignore those things.

The trouble with re-pasting is disturbing things that may sometimes be better left undisturbed. If it is done properly, good results can be expected. How long those good results last before re-pasting is necessary will vary based on a number of factors. The skill and attention to assembly detail of the person doing the paste job and quality of the paste are important. You can expect to have the Dell thermal pads and core interface materials (if competently applied at the factory) to give acceptable results for average users for a longer period of time than aftermarket pastes.

 

my own experiments on the R3 with AS5 show it is far superior to the stock toothpaste that they use for thermal paste.

Anyways, sounds like the dell tech wow'ed you guys with techno mumbo, jumbo. If you feel that the stock paste is good enough, then leave it and enjoy your computer.

 

Going over some threads and reading what most say about repasting, I've come to the conclusion that I probably won't need to repaste anytime soon. Currently it seems Dell may have done a good job on my system. Even running FurMark with a 25% OC on 1920x1280 resolution I only hit 71C. On stock clocks I hit about 65C. Even playing NFSW or Kingdoms of Alamar, which don't seem to stress the card much, I only hit the upper 50s to lower 60s. I don't see the need to have to repaste. Now in the future if I run something more demanding that stresses the card close to throttling, then I'll look into repasting.

I do feel that Yoda does make a good point with what the tech told him. I really wished I would have been able to listen in on that call. I'm sure the tech would have wowed me with his techno mumbo jumbo. It seems those that need to repaste are those that got a bad paste job from the factory or are those that need to bench and OC their systems to the breaking point. For those of us that just want to game and run some graphic intensive programs, should be more than satisfied with the stock paste job, granted that they did the paste properly at the factory.

 

Hmm, given what everyone's said I'm still not sure...I'd rather have the 580M but I don't want to have any throttling issues either and I don't want to repaste. At the same time it has better performance (even if it's only by a whisker in some/most cases depending on benchmark) and nVidia's drivers don't completely suck...

If brand new M17x's turn out generally alright, I might give the 580M a shot then.

 

You also have to take into account what your ambient temps are. If you live in a warmer climate, go with the 6990m. If you live in a cooler climate, and are willing to apply a couple fixes that will only take a few min and don't require anything other than restarting your system and applying a couple system changes, then go with the 580m. No matter which you choose, if the factory does a poor job of putting your system together, then you're going to run into problems, no matter what gpu you choose.

 

Imo, you get the 580 and you must be commited, from the start, that you will be willing to apply the 68 power throttle fix, then if 78 throttle comes around, repaste it and/or apply the hwinfo fix. Also always prop up the back in the middle. Don't want to, get 6990 end of story.
I bought mine in canada, got both throttles. Waiting for holidays to repaste my gpu, Dell can say what they want but I'm convinced enough seeing the results of customers who did repaste.

 

Well, I can give you an example of a brand new M17xR3 and its performance with a 580m. My system arrived on March 21st, so I hope that is new enough for ya.

I have put my system through its paces. I too wanted to see if it would throttle while under heavy use. I tried 4 games that I know specifically would push separate parts of the laptop to see if I could get it to throttle.

Skyrim - All settings maxed (ultra), high res texture pack, 15 other mods all designed around adding visual fidelity to the game (real water textures, foliage, animals, etc). Played it for 3 hours straight, framerate never went below 50. Temps hovered around 67-69c. Skyrim was a test for the GPU mainly.

Batman Arkam City - All settings maxed including PhysX. Framerate never went below 48. Batman pushes your CPU more than a lot of games because it is a console port. My CPU is also the low-end 2670, so I'm quite happy. Temps stayed around 65c.

Dungeon Defenders - Not the most graphically intensive game but when you have 200+ mobs on the screen with spell effects going on and 4 people running around, things get VERY intense. If you know the game, Nightmare survival on round 20 will say all I need to. Framerate never went below 40 and temps hovered around 69c.

Metro 2033 - This REALLY pushes the card. I cannot max out everything and keep a respectable framerate at native resolution so I pulled the AA off and pulled shadows to low and changed another setting or two that did not affect visuals much (sorry, forgot the options). Framerate hovered around 50 during action sequences. Temps hovered at 71c.

Honestly, I got the 580m expecting to have to repaste. I know Dell uses some decent paste in these because the material must be able to withstand hundreds of thousands of molecular changes (from semi-solid to plasma-like) over and over again. While the actual thermal profile might not be as efficient as PK-1, or MX-4, the material itself is quite impressive.

Now, have I repasted? Nope. I plan on it if I ever see the throttle. To me, the idea of having to repaste it FAR easier to swallow than having to deal with ATI's drivers. Just as personal opinion, I really have bad luck with ATI cards and their drivers.

If the idea of repasting is more than you are comfortable doing, I would go with the 6990m. Though if you are like me, and have bad luck with ATI or their drivers; get the 580m and learn a bit about your laptop.

We were all scared newbs at one time or another...

 

All of the reasons given are just excuses. Band Aid fixes shouldn't have to be applied to a GAMING COMPUTER costing what these systems cost. It's an obviously poorly thought out design and the issue is compounded by poor implementation and quality control where these systems are produced.

if it's being done for "engineering reasons" then that's just an indication that the engineers at Dell need some more training or Dell needs to stop advertising this as the "Ultimate Gaming" computer when in fact it's not for reasons known to the engineers alone. (and now to a few on here that sat on a conference call and were told that Dell has their reasons and no we won't fix it). Of course the Dell engineer that was responsible for this situation is going to defend his decisions, after all he's paid by the company not the end user........and it's human nature to want to be right. Too many people have shown radical improvement in their temperatures by re-pasting with better paste to seriously believe that the stuff Dell Engineers use is somehow superior.

It's borderline sad that so many people are willing to give them a free pass on this. I got the 6990 and am stuck with the ATI driver issues because the Nvidia isn't a reliable viable option for this computer without "fixing" it.

My experience with Dell thus far has ensured that this will be the absolute last Dell product I will ever purchase.

 

Hmm...I think I'll end up going for the 580M. If I have to implement aggressive fan settings whenever I play games, so be it. Here's hoping I won't though. I suppose a poor paste job would need re-pasting whether it was the 6990M or the 580M...

I presume that flashing the vBIOS isn't risky?

Now I just have to decide whether or not to upgrade to the 3D screen as well...

Thanks for your responses guys. Hoping to order later today.

The system was never designed for the 580M. It was designed for its original GPUs: the nVidia 460M, and the ATi 6870M or 6970M.

It was added in because of demand, although I do agree that they should have fixed the throttle first - adding more aggressive fan profiles from the factory would have been perfect.

 

You will be more than satisfied with the 580m. I know I'm loving every bit of it. Now these "fixes" or "excuses" we have are very simple to do, and even if the system didn't have the throttling issue, it's very beneficial to the system. Would it have been better to not have to apply these fixes? Of course, every single one of us would love to be able to have the system stay cool and not throttle. Since I do mess around with some minor OCing, it's good to have the custom fans to help keep everything cool. Even with stock clocks, I'll run the custom fans to see how low my temps are when I game.

One thing is for certain, I'm glad I'm not running into BSOD trying to install new drivers for my system, as some have had with their 6990ms. I'm also glad that I'm not hitting any of the throttling that some have with their 580ms. Not every one that has a 6990m or 580m are running into any of the problems. You have to remember that the minority of Alienware owners are the one's that frequent this forum. When you read about an issue, don't think that everyone that has ordered a similar system has these problems. There are some very knowledgeable people here, and we even have reps from Dell that are willing to lend a hand. So when someone does have an issue, of course you're going to read about it here.

What you have to remember is that no matter what everyone else says about having to repaste, if your system is built to the correct specs and the paste job was done right, you won't need to repaste. You can believe what others swear by or you can believe what people that sat in on the call say. I've taken into account what I have read from everyone. My conclusion is that I wont need to repaste at the moment. It appears that my system was done right and since I haven't come close to the 78C throttle, I have no need to repaste. I haven't hit the 65C throttle since owning my system, but since the fix was so easy to do, I did it anyways just as a precautionary move. I didn't want to have to worry about it. The only main issue I was having was with Optimus not switching when I ran 3DMark for benching or used HWiNFO for my fans. I wasn't able to find a fix for it, so I just disabled Optimus using the modded A08 BIOS. It was pretty much just download, double click, then during restart go into the system settings and changed 2 settings. Since I use the system plugged in, battery power was not a concern to me.

Call all these "excuses" or "fixes" that shouldn't need to be applied for the "Ultimate Gaming Machine", but after doing about 10 min of work, I can safely say I have the "Ultimate Gaming Machine". That is as ultimate a gaming machine can be with only one GPU and that isn't a kelper card or a desktop, lol. If your system does come in with some problems, don't hesitate to look through these forums and ask for help. There are a lot of knowledgeable people willing to lend a helping hand. And if the unfortunate situation does arise that you need to get a hold of Dell tech support, no matter what happens, they will help to resolve your issue. Some say it's a hassle, others say they're great. You will only truly know once you need it.

 

I'm starting to think now, perhaps it's worth waiting for the R4? It's inevitably out soon...I don't need a new system immediately, but I'm still itching to replace my ancient beast. Even if I didn't like the R4 at least I'd still be likely to get some discounts on the R3...

Damn it, part of me hates the rapidly advancing hardware in computers.

But if I do get an R3, looks like it'll be 580M. Looking at it again the fixes don't seem major, and I'd rather not deal with ATi's crappy drivers.

 

Well the R4 probably won't be for another few months. The fixes for the 580 aren't that severe. Personally, being a bit OCD, I never appreciate a "working out of the box" system. I always get down and dirty for a few days knowing the ins and outs etc. When I got my R3, I seem to recall that I took the system apart before even powering it on. But that's just me. You have to take a very liberal approach to a machine, tinkering as you go and moulding it into the perfect machine. It pays off in the long run.

 

I couldn't have said it better myself. +

however, i won't say that i was "stuck" with the 6990m. This was my first choice. Never even considered the 580m...it was double the price at the time and all the issues that come with the 580m...so no thanks.

I still don't understand why some of you have such a hard time updating drivers. I've never had a single bsod updating, and i've always updated over the previous version. GPu switching always works

But you are right, the difference in temps between the stock paste and aftermaket is "RADICAL". Its not close. I would have accepted the argument that the stock paste was built for longevity and not best temps because they don't expect the average person to repaste...HOWEVER, by saying that the stock paste is on par with AS5 for temps, when clearly its not...that's blatant BS, or the stock paste jobs are sooo bad that it leads to higher temps.

One other thought...why is it that 580m's in Sager don't throttle. Why is it that 580m's in MSI don't throttle...why is it that 580m's on any Clevo based platform do not throttle. This is strictly an Alienware phenomenon

 

My experience mirrors this. My 1 year R3 ownership anniversary was March 24. So I have one of the earlier R3 (post Sandybridge recall) and the 6970m. I've never experienced driver problems or blue screens. I've always installed AMD drivers right over the old ones. My GPU switching has always worked.

If you want to save a few bucks on the 6990m, just buy it and don't let AMD driver stories stop you. Watch the forums (especially posts by SlickDude80) for AMD driver posts and use the links provided.

Good luck whichever you decide.

Edit: Forgot to add....My 6970m idles in the high 50's and heats up to the high 70's during demanding games. I haven't repasted and have never had throttling or artifacts. It is counter-intuitive, but the 6970m seems to be a little hotter than the 6990m. When my R3 was new, I scoured the internet looking for 6970m temperature experiences, and mine was right in the middle of the pack. 6990m owners seem to have lower temps overall. It could be that Dell's thermal paste and install skill have increased in the interim.

 

I haven't applied a modded vBIOS, etc (or any other fixes). Just dropped back to A08 (from Dell for SATA III reasons), did a fresh install of W7 and installed the latest drivers since I received mine; no re-pasting either. I haven't had a throttling issue on any games I've played and my card is overclocked (not much though). Maybe I just got lucky.

 

i second this really, im pretty open to either manufacturer of Card, having dealt with ATi with the past 3-4 generations of Alienwares, the Drivers issues are user error 90% of the time. I personally have Never had an issue with Drivers from either side, you just have to install them correctly. BUT what i have noticed over those years of Alienwares is with the Nvidia cards there is ALWAYS some problem that cant be fixed and has to worked around by the better half of the Forum.the R1's had wicked bad DPC, it took till the EOL for Drivers to be released that sorta fixed it,& the on board Gpu(9400) was laden with problems, so they dropped the Nvidia cards for the R2, No real issues other than the lot of us burning them up with Benching. Now throttling issues, that cant be fixed, and have to be worked around. for the 10% performance gain,personally the things that have to be done are not an issue, but Id rather not have to worry about it. Id recommend the 6990 all the way. when i upgrade this thing im getting a 6990M, without question i wouldn't even consider the 580M