Dell 580m "throttle" contact group

*** This thread is reserved for organized community contact with Dell ***​

As posted elsewhere

As soon as the 'whislist' is composed, we will either set up an 'conference' meeting with Dell, or Dell representatives will communicate with us in here in this very thread.

This threads needs to be kept as clean as possible. If you have anything to say, add or criticize outside of the scope of this posting, please use this thread to do so.

Dell representatives, you are naturally very welcome to talk in here.

*** Please note that it would be the best to keep this thread as clean as possible! Thanks! ***​

 

First two questions that need to be answered before work on the 'throttle wishlist' could commence:

 

So do you wan't a PM with the Wishlist from us or post them here? (I'll edit this post with information)

 

Go ahead and post - I'd like to see this develop into a community driven thread (which it is) and 0x29A will be updating post#1 based on discussion.

 

initial thoughts:

1. i can't be part of this call, i simply am way to busy in order to partake in this conference. I'm sure this isn't a big deal, since there are hopefully already 4 of you.

2. throttling should only occur when the gpu hits a certain temperature. this temperature should have been determined by research and evidence. the temperature should be the the absolute highest the gpu can go before causing any damage to the system

3. throttling should be more incremental. what do I mean by this? currently, in the a00 vbios, there are only two sets of clocks are far as i can tell. the super low ones 73.6/162/147 and the high ones 620/750/1240.

Why can't there be like 6 or more clocks? so that, as the gpu approaches dangerous temperatures, it can throttle back only slightly (so performance impact in negligible) but begin bringing the temperature down. and of course, if the first lowest clock rates are being successful at lowering the temp to safe levels, a second set of even lower clocks, and third, and then fourth and so on can be dropped too.

this level of granularity would mean good things for the life of our cards (unless rapid clock speed changes actually hurts them) and negligible effects on our gaming experience (compared to the dramatic throttling that occurs now, when dropping from 620/750/1240 to 73.6/162/147).

4. throttling should never occur simply because the card is under full load. the point of throttling is to protect the card, the only thing that can damage the card under normal conditions is overheating.

5. we should be given more control over the gpu fans. What do I mean by this? i do not believe we should be able to make the cooling profiles less strict... but i do believe we should be able to easily make them more strict.

For example, if noise is no object, why not run the fans at 100% speed as soon as the cards go above the lowest clock speeds (73.6/162/147)? Sure, we can achieve this with third party software that slows down our system's bootup, but why not right in the bios?

 

Ok, I'm going to keep it very simple and real.

I buy high end Dell/Alienware laptops for their high end components, performance and flexibility. I do expect them to push the limits of their high end systems (I paid over 5k for this system), my point is if Nvidia isn't implementing this particular throttle (as seen in other manufacturers eg: Clevo) and as evidence in the M17x where they are able to eliminate that throttle through a BIOS mod... I sure do not expect Alienware to throttle an OC friendly high end DTR.

The fix provided earlier today xxx.06 VBios, not so sure it'
s actually that much better... While the throttle is a lot less aggressive it does stick for longer resulting in perhaps lower Avg FPS overall (I need to test this further).

My games don't seem to throttle however we all know that demanding games are just starting to hit the market now and I'd love to have a 5k system ready for the future (2-3 years).

3DMark 2011 makes Throttling very evident even at stock speeds in some cases, however when I OC even 5-7% it is a 100% guarantee that it will kick in.... Does not throttler to 2-3 FPS but goes from 45fps to 21 fps and remains in that stage for the rest of the test. Not good.

Now for my List:

- Increase the Throttling cap (has to be at least 85c, spec wise Nvidia claims it's safe to run even at 90), not sure what the actual algorithm is now, but it's hard to understand my cards throttling when their temps are 73c!


Would be Nice to have:

- A slight Voltage control, to what we have seen these cards to run very successfully at 0.92v

If Dell resolves the one point I absolutely would like to see (basically eliminate the aggressive throttling implemented by Dell or make it less evident) they will continue to get my business and, I believe, I'm also speaking for other members.


On a side note, why was there a need to implement this throttling on Nvidia and not ATI? (just a thought)

 

This is an excellent remark there! Exactly, any not AMD?

 

I totally agree here, we are not saying totally remove the throttle, just make it a lot higher than what it is currently to fall inline with other vendors.
A protection in place is always good to have.

Oh btw Xeneize new volts mod 0.92v released for the revision 2 vbios for testing

 

That's exactly right. As it was said before. Dell could make the throttle truly temperature related so actually to both efficiently protect the system and give us space we crave.

A modified 'throttle equation' like temp > 90*C + 100% load = throttle could work very well for everybody.

 

Isn't it irrelevant with the current throttling?

 

I suppose given the current situation, but for me no throttle upto 740mhz stock anything over this a get artifacts, so i need to know how far i can go to experience the throttle. (testing now)

 

Run 3DMark 2011, it's evident going from 40's fps to 19-20.

 

Until the throttle is there any modifications are pointless anyway

 

Same as Xeneize, - "Increase the Throttling cap"

Arma2 OA is unplayable with the map "Cheanruas", takistan is just "Okay", when walk into the forest, un-oh!!! hate to see my games drop from 60fps to 25fps.

 

Hi GuyZ!
I think dell should go in for recall for all systems with 580M cards...

Coming with new Bios which reduces the clock to 475Mhz with undervolt 0.850V from 0.870V does not solve the purpose..We are paying to play games atleast on 620Mhz speed not for 475Mhz speed... Do they think we will not notice their slimy tricks???

The cooling system is not efficient at all... Why do we need to place book below the laptop to keep it cool? No matter i keep my clocks speed to 500/1000/1200 Mhz for Core/Shader/Memory still my temp reaches over a time to 77°C if laptop is not elevated from back... We place on flat surface should be sufficient..They should atleast have fans with higher speed and good thermal Pad for heat transfer. and good heatsinks too... My old XPS M1730 with 9800M GTX cards in SLI was giving better performance no matter it was heating so high that i could even fry eggs if i keep on them over it but never issues with throttling...Nvidia have started this marketing strategy concept for reducing the voltage and reducing the Core speeds to prevent its damage to cards specially when overclocked and also limiting the cards performance so they themselves overclock and give a new name 600M or 620M and sell... this thrttling is there in Desktop cards like GTX 590 too...
Why is the product rated as gaming laptop if they don't even test laptop will it game or not...
This is completely unfair...

Regards!

 

Hello,

I've been using NBR since quite a while now, but never felt the need to sign up. That is until now. This is my first post on these forums.

This has essentially evolved from a thread regarding the M18x and the GTX 580m. While I don't own an M18x, I do have a M17x R3 with the GTX580m, and 3D (which I never use. Thank you throttling) so I've been following the previous thread and this very carefully.

I'm as disgusted as the rest of you regarding the throttling issue. I flashed the new VBIOS as soon as it was out expecting a fix. Well, it hasn't fixed the throttling issue coompletely.

Two solutions caught my attention.
1) As mentioned by quite a few people, the throttle could be purely temperature driven as with Intel CPUs (and not the lame 77C TYVM).

2) johnksss mentioned something about trying to slow his GPU down by 2%, so as not to hit 100% usage and evade throttle. This sounds good too. I'd rather have it running at 98% consistantly (stock/ OCed), than have it run in short spurts at 100% then clock back.

As an extra, allowing volt mods would be really nice too.

Finally, It's been nice seeing a positive approach from the Dell team on here. Hope it translates to a solution and not just polite conversation for a very long time. It has been mentioned before, that these are expensive machines and I don't think anyone really bought them to be restricted. Overclocking should really be an open avenue on these computers, seeing the kind of people who buy them.

 

Sorry, but your rhetoric is just a bit over the top. No offense to you. It's just your post I find unreasonable. Do you seriously believe "they don't even test laptop will it game or not..."?

"My old XPS M1730 with 9800M GTX cards in SLI was giving better performance"
Care to post benchmarks to back that up, or are you just blustering?

"We place on flat surface should be sufficient.."
Please let us know what your ambient temperature is. Just curious.

 

Let me go cool off a bit, and I'll be back to offer my suggestions for organizing around the conference call.

 

Hi Dell-Bill, please understand how frustrated ppl would be paying big money for these machines and then to be slowed down.

Nvidia already have their own oct/ocp protections in place anyway from factory, its embedded in the hardware of the cards.

Don't take this personal please, we know your here to help and sort the matter out which in my books is outstanding to say the least. (this to me would draw me back to Dell alone)
Just by you being here would attracted more buyers to the Dell product.

Its like buying a fast car, but the maker says to you hmmm yes it goes to 250km but we have limited you to 150km when the motor revs to a certain limit. Phew if i knew this i wouldnt have bothered buying this car.

Same concept, buyers should have been warned and then made the decision to continue the purchase or not.
Personally, if i knew Dell upfront where going to throttle these babies, i would have gone to another vendor myself.

So lets work together here and sort this out so we all can be happy at the end of the day.

From my latest testing these cards can handle 620mhz stock clocks no problems running 3d vantage to completion with no slowdowns.
And when i say 3d vantage, this as you know is a high powered gpu testing software in the real world no game would stress the gpu's that much

 

@bar-code Seriously, I get it. We are having a reasonable conversation, and have been all along. It's just my opinion that if people like you- who are just as frustrated as vginside- are going to take the time to have a reasonable conversation, then I'm willing to divert some time from other projects to come do the same. I'm also willing to convince engineers to talk to you and listen as well. What I'm not willing to do is overlook FUD. M1730 out performs M17x r3? We're seriously going to post that here, and no one is going to point it out but me?

 

lol! come on we all know there is no way a M1730 will outperform a m17x r3.
i had a m1730 myself and to tell you the truth yes back in its time it was good, but now technology moves so fast its not funny.

Even with the throttle in place the m17x r3 will eat the m1730

Edit
My proposal would be to ask the Dell engineers if they can change the new 3rd p1 entry to 620mhz instead of 475mhz the problem would be solved running all at stock speeds no slowdown and they can keep the 0.85v in place if they wish as it runs fine on 0.85v.
__________________

 

question:
and what happens when your sitting at idle...just where is the gpu speed sitting at then?

 

If this is for me, it sits at 50mhz no problems, as it still has level 1 (50mhz) and 2 (75mhz)

Dont forget the older vbios had no level 3 and this is why users were seeing fps to like 5fps (because it was throttling to level 2 (75mhz), now that level 3 is in place the slow down is at 40-55fps (475mhz)

What im saying is level 3 and 4 should be the same 620mhz problem gone!
Im not sure if its that simple tho.

 

this was for anyone to answer. asking for the (non over clocking / low power consumption group - )

 

lol yeah me! i can fall into that low group some times hey hey.
Anyway i hope that little explaination helps.

Bed time for me arrrr time differences!

 

Hi!
Not to offence you but i have done my homework and then only i have posted this as you have asked I'm attaching the 3D mark06 results...(please downlaod the attachment) You can see mostly the score more is due to CPU not GPU infact in complex calculations the 9800MGTX was faster then 580M GTX trust me in high and complex calculation 9800MGTX does not outperform but its hardly any faster... Hope this resolve your issue...
Now if you can help to solve this issue would really be appriciated instead of you by taking it personal... If you have tested it then tell me single game 3D game which i can play without throttle trust me you watch a movie for 1.5-2hours too you will get throttle for 0.5 to 1 seconds in this laptop i prooved myself can you proove yourself how many games did you test??? I would love for your reply... We have paid so much amount for worlds fastest laptop and not sitting DUCKS! you create a new bios which reduces the performance of GPU to 475 MHZ instead of standard clock 620Mhz why? what does this mean...? Agreed you do not want anyone to overclock but we can't even run on default clocks too???? and claim the throttling Problem will be solved with new bios? I have better solution why not reduce the clock permanantly with your new bios to 475Mhz don't even bother going back to 620Mhz!
Once again i repeat It is nothing personal to you if i you feel i have hurt you in anyway i apologise for the same... Hope you get some solution...

 

Thank you for taking this issue head on and organizing the community with purpose. My motherboard is giving me code 43 errors out of nowhere. So I've retired it until my replacement arrives.

 

ok.. there are quite a few things wrong in that pdf..
starting with the most obvious of all.
windows xp vs windows 7
over clocked dual core vs stock quad core.

just to name two.

and since i held most of the 9800m gtx records..i actually know where that gpu stands...and it's no where even remotely close...

run your 9800m gtx in windows 7 and report back...

 

Nice 1730 set up there, but I'm not seeing evidence of it out-performing. Maybe I'm no expert, but I do know 17K>12K.

So to be perfectly clear: Can you post any evidence of GPU throttling in-game without some synthetic benchmarking program running at the same time? Or put another way, does the system throttle under the manufacturer's intended purpose, which is not an OC'd GPU + synthetic benchmark? Gaming rig. Not benchmarking rig. That's what we marketed. That's what we sold. It just so happens to be a pretty good benchmarking rig.

Anyone feel free to weigh in here. Am I that far off base?

PS. Oh yeah. I forgot to post a picture of an apple and an orange next to each other to illustrate the O/S difference johnksss just pointed out. So, just imagine a pic of an apple next to a pic of an orange.

 

I got your back.



Sorry, couldn't refrain. Had to inject some humor.


But on a serious note,

Bill, Thanks for taking the time to address the concerns of the community. It's always appreciated having somone from Dell take time out of there day, to speak with us.

While the issue at hand doesn't affect me, I do see the reasons behind it and am glad to see it has gotten the attention of the engineers. I understand that it must be frustrating to have a GPU that will throttle under certain circumstances. I think if I owned the 580M, I would feel that, although it may not throttle now under current games, it may in the future, when games are more demanding. If that is indeed true, than it would lead to the cards not being as effective, in the longterm as the AMD counterparts. And for the price of the cards, people want to enjoy them, worry free for at least a few years.

On the other hand I do see the point of the throttling, protect the cards. Understandably, it's not good business to have to constantly replace abused cards.

Perhaps as John stated earlier, make the criteria for throttling time and temp related. Again I'm not completely up to speed on the issue, as Im unaffected by it.

Bottom line, Just wanted to say thanks for your time.

 

Hey Bill, just ignore some people (wonders of a public forum I guess). You know who you can reasonably talk to in here.

Any news from Louis regarding the 'throttle equation' / the presence of the throttle?

 

Thanks for weighing in. I spent some time in Quantico myself in a previous life.

The best I can do is take back all the input from the community to the teams and put the lead GPU engineer on the phone with you guys. Hopefully Ox29A and his committee have a productive meeting with us and get their questions answered to their satisfaction.

 

Quantico isn't a bad place. Just got here as a Contractor, enjoying it so far.

I'm pulling for the committee. We had a rep here prior "Erawneila" who did the same. I was able to present him with evidence (graphs, benches, ect) of a bios (17x R2) that produce unneccessary throttling. The info was taken to engineers who decided to release a new bios and removed the throttling.

Our biggest hurdle is to establish the lines of communication, which is why we are grateful for your time.

While the throttling may or may not be removed, it's nice to know that our input is at the least, considered.

 

Honestly, I'm not peppering him with any questions right now. I figure his willingness to get on the phone and talk to you guys is indication that he can field that question directly from you.

 

Fair enough. Less 'nodes', less confusion.

 

I know Erawneila (Alienware backwards). He's in a new role now working on tablets and smart phones.

I was in Quantico right after boot camp in Jan-March 1988.

 

Not at all infact I would say the same to anyone who uses non-standard issues as a case to say there is a problem.

Furmark and OCCT no one should really care if it throttles, they are not productivity apps. We just need every regular game title and productivity suit to work without throttling whatsoever at stock clocks and 100% usage.

Beyond that nothing is needed to be guaranteed, those are only lucky bonuses.

 

**Reminder to All** -

This is not a thread about the 17xR3, the XPS M1730 or any other system. This is a thread to discuss points of concern as it pertains to the AW M18x and NVIDIA 580M. The OP created this thread to ask the community for input so he could help organize prior to a discussion with AW Engineering. Please keep this in mind when posting.

M18x AMD owners please see this POST by Bill.

For the M17xR3 NV 580M users, we have a thread which Bill is monitoring and if questions arise from your posts, I'm sure he will respond. I've left a message in that the thread suggesting that 17xR3 owners provide examples of throttling after the latest update. Please, use that thread if you have concerns.
http://forum.notebookreview.com/ali...ios-updated-10-5-nvidia-geforce-gtx-580m.html

Lets get back on-topic folks. No more OT posts and certainly no inflammatory posting. Any posts which are inflammatory or otherwise violate the NBR forum rules will be addressed by a mod. Please report any posts which you feel do not add to the conversation and a moderator will handle it.

Much appreciated, thanks.

 

hummm, i should jump on that team as well..since i had 6990m's
and im not even remotely close to being bran specific.


ok, so fully on topic...

just exactly how are we going to do this conference call? do we all call a dell number and then we are patched in?

 

Once 0X contacts Bill and informs him you folks are ready, Bill will inform the folks who will be participating on how to call in. My guess, yes - a Dell call-in number for conference calls.

 

sounds good. thanks batboy.

 

I will be very happy to put together a contact group for team red, but not really team red.

In fact it might be better to just wait until this first meeting takes place, I have a feeling the concerns of 'team red' will be shared by 'team green.' After all we are actually all on Team Alien.

I know their primary concern right now is the thottle, but from what Bill has indicated the interest on the side of Dell goes well beyond the throttle issue. Rather there is general interest about what we as extreme users and OCers want/need.

Perhaps this group can be modified to include some Reddies afterward and we can all be on Team Extreme OC ... and discuss our common and particular needs. (Things like Overvoltage capabilities, acccess to creating bios fan profiles, etc...)

Wishing all the current group luck solving the Throttle issue. Then lets work together in a more comprehensive manner.

Sound good ?

 

Once again thank you for all you do!

I want to explain my view of the throttling process.
I think first we must seek the reasons why D/AW (Dellienware) to implement this protection.

let me do a little comparison.
If we say that the temperature represents the speed and the speed of temperature change is accelerating, then the acceleration is represented by the load of the GPU. This would explain why D/AW, used the GPU load in their calculations.

In my opinion it was not a bad thing (if there really need a D/AW protection), you just do it with other values.

Imagine a GPU 90° at 100% load, it should certainly increased the time before the implementation of throttling. While there is no reason to throttle at 90° if the GPU is only 75% or 50% load. (The values ​​I used are purely explanatory, you will know better than I those to be used)

But the first question. What is the risk if D/AW does not have in place security system over that of NVIDIA?

If there is indeed a risk, then what are the limits that D/AW would not be exceeded.

After that it will be possible to find the best solution.

 

Okay, let's get some focus here. What do we want to talk about?

1) We want to know what is the current 'throttle equation' and why any kind of throttling is supposedly necessary at all.
2) We want to have the 'throttle equation' reconsidered with the focus on temperature levels and not load levels. We consider temperature related throttling welcome and needed for safety reasons. A level of 90*C would be just fine. (so the equation would be: temp >= 90*C + 100% load = throttle)
3) Default max fan speed is 3600 RPM, but the fans can actually go 3900 RPM. We want the highest 'gear' to spin at max possible speed.

What else is there to say? We could also mention having voltage set higher, up to 0.92V, yet this can be modified easily enough the DYI way.

 

The point is not to go too high with the temperature. When do the cards heat up? When they run at full load and the cooling system does not keep up with cooling them down. You will never see 90*C @ 70% load. I doubt you will ever see more than 65*C at that level.

Yesterday while playing Rage (primary card had avg. load ~60%) and the temperature never exceeded 63*C.

 

ummmm, fan anything wasn't even on your list for the m18xr2 , so why the input now. since the temp levels are based quite a bit on how fast the fans spin or when they turn on?

this was just a q&a...not knocking anything on this list.

 

I have experienced the same thing as John, maybe there is a possible fix on the Dell side, but forcing fans to run at MAX creates a burst type profile after a while, the fans ramp up to full for about 5 seconds, then shut off for 5 seconds. I don't know if 100% fans is possible.

 

For an equation like that :
90° + 5mins + 80% Load = throttle

Imagine you play a game that give you a load of 100% and brings up the 95 degrees for 2 minutes. After that the load come down to 75% and the temps stay near the 90° when the time from the equation is reached. At this point if you don't mind about the load parameter the Throttle be engaged for nothing.

The combination of load and duration to define changes that will take the temperature. if it is 90° phase stable or cooling so there is no need for throttling so that if one is 90° and the load is at max then the needs of the throttling is obvious (obviously only if is a real need for throttling)

Obviously if you only have to raise the bar on the temperature 90° to no longer hear about thorttling so my thinking is useless

@johnksss
In fact that's why I had not added to the beginning, then after I had forgotten.
If I would probably never need to control my fans, someone who does not care of noise, may want to activate its fans at full load 100% of the time.

Little swindler

 

yeah, not buying this..haha
and when i say fan control...that means fan profiles as well. which is a major deal. and i might want my fans to run about 30 percent....that should be my choice. (not a realistic one, but mine none the less) you need to look at the bigger picture and not just what you want..