My M18x turned into a zombie...so now I'm building that monster desktop I always talked about.

Started with H80i which was a very good unit but couldn't handle the volts needed to run my 4770K @4.8Ghz so i looked for something much much better,yes its expensive but like anything you get what you pay for,i had no other option really (love my Lian Li Case) i cant run a complete custom solution in my case it just aint gonna fit,at least this way i have reduced the chances of any leaks (virtually no extra heat in my case) and future proofed myself for years to come (as the architecture gets smaller the hotter a cpu is going to run):thumbsup: the cooling performance of the Koolance unit is just awesome!!!

 

In reply to what Mr. Vulcan say about using radiator to suck air into the case, in that case, it will just be like what Mr. Scracy said, it's just the same as air cooler, the air goes inside your case isn't it. What what more the air that goes inside isn't really that hot, at most it will be 40C+.

For some reasons the closed loop coolers are always rather noisy, must be the crappy fans they use. Put some Noctua fans onto the radiators and things will be quiet. One advantage of water cooler, is the slow rise in temperature. You really won't see those big spikes in temperature which you see in air cooler (well I assume you won't see it in the Noctua NH-D14/15 too, given how big it's).

If you're not transporting the case, air cooler is fine. But if you're moving it around, then it's a no no. That big chunk of metal will flex your motherboard, and in worst case, kill it. So you need to take the cooler off everytime you're transporting it, which can be troublesome.

I have a Corsair H80 which I bought in 2010 I think. Have been using it for 3 yrs without problem. I dismantled my desktop last yr. It's quite sad, I need to start on a new build soon.

 

The other thing with AIO coolers is you don't have potential clearance problems with you RAM and you can set it up in such a way that it draws air from your case and pushes through the radiator and out of your case,but that could affect cooling efficiency overall

 

Good to know it's one of those cases where you actually get that you pay for. Curious though, isn't the radiator the most important part of an AIO cooler? Have you tried using the H80i water block with the Koolance radiator?

 

The Koolance unit already has 2 pumps in it (1 push/ 1 pull for redundancy in case one fails)as well as 360mm radiator so using H80i block which also has a pump built in would be pretty pointless,radiator is very important as far as efficiency goes depends largely on the density of the fins to allow airflow whilst also maintaining capacity,always going to be a compromise.

 

So would you say that Koolance offers the best AIO solution on the market right now?

 

Holy crap that Koolance system is big and expensive. If that's what it takes to run a 4770K at that clock speed and voltage, I fear for the future of CPU's...

 

Its not really an all in one as it is effectively an open loop type cooler not a closed loop sealed unit as such. But for what it is its about as good as you can get without buying all the parts for a custom loop,as far as all in one units go Corsair have consistently been up there for a number of years though there are others out there that are also very good. With Haswell and any future architecture (Broadwell, Skylake) my thought are they are only going to get hotter and hotter,smaller and more transistors=more heat. All in one coolers are fine up to a Vcore of around 1.25V beyond that open loop water cooling is the only way to go. Koolance unit is expensive but its all relative,i spent $800 on 4x840 EVOs as a Raid 0 boot drive so.....GTX690 well over $1000 at the time etc etc.......

 

Well according to Intel's former CEO silicon is on its last legs as the base material for CPUs, so who knows what the future holds.

 

Graphene? ROFL 100 GHz.

Scientists prove graphene dispels fundamental law of physics - TechSpot

Could negative resistance make graphene transistors feasible? - TechSpot

 

I'd give it 10 years minimum, and god that first link is a horrible example of journalism.

 

Yeah one thing to be careful about relying on various online marketplace reviews as some kind of statistically representative picture is that, we are far far more likely to report an issue with a product that we purchased than to go and give it glowing praise. So say a product has a total of 100 reviews, and 15 are 1 star, or 1 egg, and are nightmare reviews such as "it sprung a leak and fried my entire computer" etc, that doesn't necessarily mean that 15% of those who may purchase a Corsair AIO cooler might experience something similar.

It was a real toss up between a Corsair AIO ("all in one" for those wondering what the hell this stands for) and the Noctua Air Coolers and the only real reason I decided to go with the Noctua is the lower noise with comparable performance. Truth be told, I wasn't totally worried about a potential leak, Corsair would have gone out of business by now if it was a real problem. The noise issue was it for me. And yes, the Link software when it works is really nice, you can set the fan and pump to come on at different temps etc via PWM which brings me to a potential problem with the Noctua NH-D14 and possibly the D15, many report no PWM functionality, and a lot just set it at the 1500 RPM max as it only 35 db or so anyway.

BUT, I have heard that Corsair will NOT replace components that are damaged by a leak, only the cooler itself, AND I am still a little uncomfortable just looking at the whole cooling loop attached to my CPU and right above my GPU, yes a leak may be a slim possibility but it is still a possibility nonetheless.

And there are still a few complaints of pump failure in a few months to within only a year's time, but again, those could just be defective units and I confide in your personal experience with them far more than a negative online marketplace review or two. Whereas there are no reports of any kind of failure with the Noctua, and all that can fail with these systems are the fans.

Yeah I know it is a mostly reliable technology, and yes I am TOTALLY enjoying choosing what components my PC is going to be comprised off versus selecting from a limited number of components. Hell if I wanted there are fan-less coolers! It really makes the PC special in the end, because a lot of forethought and non-specialist engineering and aesthetic considerations take place with the end result truly something unique and special (even if only to yourself). Speaking of personal aesthetic taste, call me crazy, but I truly think the Noctua NH-D15 (and D14) are extremely sexy, even, no ESPECIALLY with the off-color tan fans that EVERYONE complains about:

Noctua NH-D15 Review | bit-tech.net



Oh and good news is the U.S. based quietpc.com is getting this cooler in middle of next week and they are saving me one! So if all goes well, if they get the cooler in early next week and shipping is fast I might have everything I need by Friday or Saturday.

The only way to settle the debate as to the effects of going with a Noctua air cooler and a Corsair AIO cooler on other components temperature wise would be testing.

To me, looking at the path of airflow from the front of the case in the second video in my previous post, there would be much less stagnant and hot air around the GPU area, and motherboard with an air cooler on the CPU than with a radiator in the front of the case. Things would get significantly worse if that radiator was not only blocking potential airflow but was also set up as intake, and then pumping warm air out onto these components. The only way this system would work would be one single radiator in the roof area, allowing the front fans to blow over the components and exhausting out the back. But then that radiator would have to be exhausting and then there is the issue of heat trapping there, whereas it would normally rise right out of the case. This would be a total non-issue in a case like the 540 Air, but any conventional tower design, with 5.25" storage bays in place of the upper fan on 540 Air, this might be a heat-trap area.

So yes, if only one radiator in the roof of a case such as the 540 Air there shouldn't be any greater heat than an air cooler. But if you have radiators in every orifice of this case, like the build in the first video of my previous post (HOPEFULLY set up as exhaust with the back fan as intake) then youre definitely going to see higher temps across the mobo, memory and other components that aren't benefiting from the rad cooling.

As far as a single AIO radiator in the ceiling area providing cooler temps than an air cooler, that is kinda hard to tell an would require testing to confirm. The air coolers, particularly the Noctua, is right in line with the intake and exhaust and is rapidly conveying any heat generated by the CPU out the back exhaust fan so there really isn't the issue of residual heat build-up by the heatsink itself just hanging around, its all being pushed in and sucked out, and then there is the unimpeded escape of heat through the ceiling, taking the path that it naturally wants to take as heat rises.

The only argument here would be, what side do you have your memory installed? Because left of the air cooler there might be an issue of inadequate air-flow making its way around but even then there enough vacuum created by the rear exhaust fan which is right there that there has to be adequate airflow even in this area. Imagine the case being filled with liquid instead of air with the front fans pushing in liquid from the outside and rear pulling it out to get a mental picture of the air-current pathways.

 

Just pick whatever cooler that floats your boat. I am pretty sure the Noctua cooler will be as good as the AIO, but at much lower noise level. The only thing you have to worry, is that your mobo will be flexed. But I am pretty sure expensive Asus Rampage Black will have a rather thick PCB, so no worries there unless you're transporting it.

Whether air cooler or AIO, with just the slightest amount of airflow mobo temp will be the least of your concern.

Call me weird, but I have always quite like the poop themed colors on the Noctua fans. It's non-conventional, one of its kind.

 

Noctua fans are literally butt-ugly but there's no denying their performance. Vulcan sounds like a Noctua fan boi.

 

^that's one of the rare instances where literally is being used properly lol

 

I know right?

 

I really do like the Noctua's color scheme, although they are coming out with some new colors this year supposedly. If they come out with anything black and white along the lines of the Corsair SP 120's that would match my case I might be a little upset.

Motherboard flex and potential breakage is somewhat of a valid concern with these large air coolers if the PC is ever to be transported and sees any kind of sudden shift of movement or jarring (imagine it's on your backseat or trunk and you are oblivious to some speed-bump somewhere) at least this is a common concern expressed on the net. As with the potential liquid nightmare of the AIO coolers, how many have actually experienced these large air coolers ripping a square shaped hole where there CPU used to be and damaging whatever components are below them as they fall is a matter of inference. This inference can be derived from the online marketplace, taking care to not extrapolate reviews into a statistically representative figure, you will find no complaints of air coolers destroying motherboards on either newegg or amazon, unlike sparse reports of pump failure and even leakage with the AIO coolers.

I've run across one other mention of this possibility, from some self-professed PC builder who said they had to ship the PC's to the customers with the air-coolers removed as they were doing the above. I'm not saying that I don't believe this story, its just the only instance of this happening that I've come across. The mounting hardware these come with is extremely robust, but yes PCB strength and thickness might be an issue. Now if I ever transport the computer, I will be detaching the air cooler simply as a precaution.


http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...yMark=False&IsFeedbackTab=true#scrollFullInfo

(15 "one egg" reviews out of 1k or 2% and 87% "five egg" reviews that's gonna be tough to beat)

VS

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835181032

(91 one egg reviews out of 818, or 11% and 50% "five egg" reviews)

If you actually take the time to read the reviews above you will find zero instance of the Noctua NH-D14 ripping away from the motherboard under stress. Nearly all of the reviews reflect dismay that the cooler wouldn't fit with their motherboard, clear their RAM with a few complaining that the coolers arrived in what appeared to be a used condition (why customers post negative reviews about the state of the item, say it's not new but used or damaged in transit, that has nothing to do with the manufacturer is beyond me).

If you look at the Corsair reviews, you will find instances of myriad problems including the following review among others.

Carl c.
3/12/2014 5:54:16 AM
Tech Level: Average
Ownership: 1 month to 1 year
Verified Owner
1 out of 5 eggsLeak and no Company Support
This review is from: CORSAIR Hydro Series H100i Extreme Performance Water/Liquid CPU Cooler. 240mm
Pros: Cooled fine for 3 months until it started leaking

Cons: ( It started leaking and customer service. ) I went to Corsair site and started a RMA now over a week now , heard nothing . There note on the RMA application said you will hear from a Corsair representative in 24 hours ( now over a week heard nothing.) Tried to find a phone number no joy.

The H100i looks good and works fine until there is a problem don't depend on Corsair Support, Now back to Air for a while.


And this one:


Rocco J.
2/17/2014 10:41:57 AM
Tech Level: Somewhat High
Ownership: 1 month to 1 year
Verified Owner
1 out of 5 eggsFailed hose connection
This review is from: CORSAIR Hydro Series H100i Extreme Performance Water/Liquid CPU Cooler. 240mm
Pros: For the approximate one month of functional operation the H100i cooled the CPU very well. Installation provided open area around the memory and MB Chipset. Compatible with same manufacturer case (easy installation).

Cons: Hose came loose from CPU pump at approximately one month spewing working fluid on MB, memory, power supply, SSD.
Motherboard appears to be destroyed or rendered inoperable.
CPU may have been destroyed.
Memory may or may not be ok.
Power supply works, but subjected to heavy concentration of working fluid (coolant).
SSD slight working fluid involvement.
Working fluid seems somewhat corrosive.
One star due to the potential of severe damage to the system.

Other Thoughts: So far relative slow response from customer service. Inquiry Monday 2/10/14. Initial response Friday 2/14/14. Request for RMA and damage claim. Holiday closure 10/17/14.


These aren't problems indicative of unforeseen issues with any new system design that have been addressed with newer revised models, both of these, which I found immediately among the first page of "one egg" reviews, are from Februrary and March of this year.

LOL! I'm entirely new to desktop PC and I already like Noctua's stuff.

 

Update:

Joy! The motherboard and PSU arrived today. Wanting to take a peek at the mobo I pulled it out of the box along with the included accessories and manual. Looking at this thing, it is a work of art, the red "start" button next to the CPU immediately conjures images of either push-button starting a Ferrari Enzo or launching an ICBM and kick-starting WW3, either one a representation of extremely sophisticated technology and power.

The best part though, intending to read the manual completely before getting started, grabbing it I discovered that on the back of it is a promo-code for a free copy of "Assassins Creed IV, Black Flag" a promotion running from November until June 30. So it looks like I decided upon possibly the best motherboard in existence, especially as far as overclocking Ivy E goes, and did so just in time to get a copy of a great game.

So that's two free games included with the ~$2200 total price layout, "Watch Dogs", which came with the GPU, and "Assassins Creed IV: Black Flag".

If the air cooler becomes available early next week I might be able to have this thing together in a weeks time. 4.7 Ghz @ 1.4 V here I come!

 

These are the most recent Noctua fans that I know of, from the Industrial PPC line. I love their fans, but they definitely cost a premium. Rubber is replaceable, but I kinda like that color of brown. Press Release

 

Ot. You either get proper watercooling loop that cools both gpu, cpu, mbo vrms or you go with air. It would be a shame not to with that beautiful machine of yours.

Sent from my C1905 using Tapatalk

 

good knowing u vulcan. if u r getting rid of that m18xr2 i know i'll be interested taking a look at it. anything else aside, strange how 680m goes out so fast, how hard did you push it?

 

Well I was actually going to ask anyone if they are interested in it, it shows absolutely no sign of weakness on factory clocks, it just doesn't seem to take +200 core/+400 memory anymore. To be honest I haven't even tried a more modest OC, say +100 core/+200 memory. There is a possibility the problem isn't a failing GPU but maybe a driver issue, conflicting software or a recent windows update, the potential sources of instability are virtually limitless.

With one failed GPU a possibility I would be willing to let this thing go at a price that would reflect current street value minus the cost of replacing BOTH GPU's with NEW Nvidia GTX 780M SLI.

I believe current street value is between $2500-$3000.

New Customizable M18x R2 3920XM Extreme 3 8GHz Ovrclck 16GB 2X680M SLI 500GB SSD | eBay

(1 British Pound = 1.5 U.S. Dollar)

So I will let this thing go for $1250 out the door, shipping included.

It also has a few goodies, a custom carbon fiber bezel and LCD screen without the highly reflective protective plastic. You will also get the original LCD if that is not your taste.

An Everki Titan bag, the best case/bag available for the M18x in my opinion, valued at $170.

The wifi card has been upgraded to an Intel Centrino 6300 Ultimate.

Windows 7

For storage you will get one 7200 RPM HHD, I believe at 400 or 500 G capacity.

A 30 day return window.

 

LOL! I think were so used to seeing it that we like it now. At least they aren't bright pink! They look rather elegant and mature to be honest. Because gaming as a 37 year old is such a mature activity your computer should look elegant, refined and mature! No bright blue custom liquid cooling loop in my machine!

Too much work and I am a total amateur, I could see if I build PC's for a living and am extremely familiar with custom cooling set-ups, the part selection process, the installation ins and outs but I am not. Slapping a Noctua on the CPU and calling it a day is more my style, especially if the performance is nearly on par with a custom liquid cooling set-up without the hassle and potential nightmare (see previous post comparing air coolers to AIO coolers).

 

A custom open loop cooler would be far more efficient than a Noctua at cooling a CPU,like you i was very apprehensive about water cooling but seriously it isnt that complicated or hard just basic common sense. My water block sits above my GTX690 so you can imagine how paranoid i was when it came to leaks,5 months later no apprehensions about water cooling. Im sure you will be happy with your air cooling until you want to overclock the snot out of it...trust me your always going to want higher and higher clocks lol

 

Yeah the new color schemes are nice and don't depart from the existing brown/tan, they all seem more mature and sophisticated in tone than the typical bright, fluorescent color patterns dominating the industry.

I am pretty sure a custom loop with multiple radiators will cool better than any single air cooler available. You have considerably greater surface area with which to exchange generated heat compared to the limited area of a single air cooler.

Other things to consider in comparing these two systems would be:

Ease of installation and maintenance

Cost/performance ratio (if a custom cooling loop costs $200-$300 total, not including the man-hours of labor involved in installation, but only brings the temperature of any cooled component down another 5-10 C over an air cooler, this is something to consider, labor time isn't a non-issue, an air cooler can be installed in 15 minutes, including the time taken to apply thermal compound, how many hours will it take to route all of the plumping for a custom loop and what is your standard labor rate?)

How airflow through the case will be affected

And here is one consideration that many overlook, the wattage drawn by each respective system.

Depending on the PSU you've selected this might not be a minor issue. Let me give you an example, I had already selected the 850W RM Gold Rated Corsair PSU, assuming that would be adequate for 780 Ti SLI should I ever feel the need to add an additional GPU in the future. I didn't want anything greater because of cost and electricity consumption considerations.

I just used this power consumption calculator tool here (you may need navigate from this link, click on "lite version" at the bottom to be taken to a page where you can do this for free) and after inputting everything I could think of, including counting the "OC Panel" included with the mobo (Asus R4BE) as an 5.25" bay display the recommended wattage PSU was 811 W. Having included the two 140 mm fans in the front and the 120 mm fan in the rear I realized that I also need to count the two 140 mm fans on the air cooler. After adding just these two fans the total wattage jumped from 811 to 829. If this was an AIO cooler, say an H100i with 4 140 mm fans in push-pull the wattage required would likely have breached the 850 watt limit that I am at with the PSU I have, ESPECIALLY when one factors in the WATER PUMP in an AIO cooler.

If only two 140 mm fans draw 18 W, 4 fans will require 36 W and a water pump another 10-20 W? So you can have an efficient air cooler that draws 18 W or an AIO cooler that may draw between 38-48 (H80i) or 46-56 (H100i) with all three systems within 4-5 C of each other performance-wise (the surprise here being that the air cooler is 4-5 cooler than an H80i push-pull and slightly cooler than an H100i and H110 in push or pull but presumably not in push-pull) .

An additional 40 W is an additional 40 W.

For now I'm fine, but if I add another 780 Ti I will be right at the limit, and that is presuming the existing PSU doesn't lose efficiency in a year or two.

What was surprising about this exercise was that an i7 4930 overclocked to 4700 Mhz @ 1.4 V can draw 242 W under 90% TDP. Coming from the M18x R2 where you only have 330 W total to share between the CPU and GPU's this was a real eye opener.

Oh and an update on the build, quietpcusa.com has the Noctua NH-D15 in stock, I ordered one just a moment ago and paid up for UPS 2-day Air. The OS just arrived today so it looks like I have everything to start putting her together (Suzy). If all goes well and I don't fry anything it should be up and running before the weekend, with baseline benches.....

 

Thinking about the above further, if one 140mm fan draws 9 W and your custom cooling loop has two 240mm+ radiators with 4 fans each youre looking at 72 W not counting the wattage required by the pump. And I am only assuming that the water pump only requires 10-20 W, it may well be higher than that amount.

So altogether nearly 100 W solely devoted to cooling. I don't think this gets enough consideration in the planning phase of building a PC, especially by newcomers. If I was with my present build and went the custom cooling route or two full size AIO coolers with four fans each (H110, H100i) I would be forced to replace my 850W PSU with a 1k or higher one down the road if I were to add an additional GPU.

This is to say nothing of the expense, if both radiators are using Noctua fans your'e looking at $160 just on those alone.

I'm pretty sure you get the picture.

 

I think you have some misconception about power consumption of fans. You estimation of fan power is off by 1 order of magnitude. Take the Noctua 140mm fan for example, it won't consume more than 2 W running 1200 RPM. You will be hard pressed to find fans that pull over 5W at max RPM, unless...you get industrial fans that can spin at 6000 RPM and will sound like vacuum cleaner. I had this 30W fan ( Delta AFB1212GHE 120x38mm Rev. C Grand High Speed - Delta AFB Series Classic Fans), 5200 max RPM. I wasn't careful and once and it cut my skin off, I learnt my lesson since then.

It's no surprise a LGA 2011 CPU with 130W TDP can draw over 250W. In general, you can get an estimation this way, whatever the TDP is listed on Intel CPUs, double that, and you will get an idea of how much power it pulls when overclocked.

An air cooled case won't have that much fewer fans than a watercooled case. The popular pump (MCP 655, MCP655 - Rouchon Industries Inc., dba Swiftech - PC Liquid Cooling Systems CPU Cooler VGA Water Block Heatsink Pump Radiator Heat Exchanger Kit) pulls 24W nominally. With 10 more fans, that's just less than 40W there. Trust me, a 9W fan will be "pretty" noisy. So no, using power as an argument for going air cooling, doesn't make much sense, no offense. Esp when you're going LGA 2011 CPU. But what you said about ease of installation, I do agree.

Also I wouldn't get a PSU that low, although there should be no problem. We have seen a 780 TI pulls 300W easily. 300W x2 + 250W is 850W, not counting the loss of power in PSU. Unless you run Furmark + Linpack at the same time, the 850W should be fine. Even then the PSU will still be fine.

A watercooled system will run cooler, and both the CPU and GPU will run more efficiently, pulling less power than an air cooled system. Leakage gets higher with temperature ( Poole–Frenkel effect - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia). It's not much different, but at higher clock speed, you can see that it's easily 20W difference, comparing CPU power at 50C vs 70C. i7-3770K vs. i7-2600K: Temperature, Voltage, GHz and Power-Consumption Analysis - AnandTech Forums

 

An overclocked LGA2011 cpu can easily pull 300W cooling fans draw very very little,in my opinion your going with HEDT platform and then effectively cripple it by using air cooling. Im not saying the Noctua isn't a good cooler,it is a good cooler but a water cooled system will produce better cooling results and better overall system performance and longevity. Even a sealed AIO unit will still yield better results overall,they are not that noisy and if you use Noctua fans on the radiator as many enthusiasts do it will be even quieter. Give you an idea my [email protected] with a Vcore of 1.43v idles at 18 degrees Celsius with an ambient temp of around 20 degrees Celsius and im only running my cooler at 30% duty cycle,not noisy at all.

 

PWM is magic isn't it. Do you run your pump using PWM too? Or just the fans?

 

I have 5 Corsair fans 2xAF140QE in the top of the case,2xSP120PE in the front,1xAF120QE in the rear of the case all controlled by Lamptron FC3V5 fan controller,the cooler itself (3x120mm fans and 2 pumps) run of a circuit board inside the case which is powered by a single molex type connector,i dont need to run the fans above 900RPM as my temps are extremely low anyway,so no noise issues here:thumbsup:

 

I didn't know how much power the fans required, after inputting two 140mm fans on the power calculator site I provided the total power requirement jumped from 811 to 829 W. 2 W per fan is absolutely amazingly efficient. It's almost unbelievable but I will take your word for it.

Regarding the PSU I'm with, I am not currently running 780 Ti SLI, but MIGHT have cut myself short with only an 850 W PSU should I decide to add a second 780 Ti in the future. Now what has to be noted is that I don't intend to OC my GPU's, at all, and I've heard that Corsair tends to under-rate their PSU's actual wattage capacity, especially the "Gold Rated" RM line. I might be pushing the limit with 850 W should I add an additional 780 Ti in a year or two, but to be honest at the point in time which I might consider adding a second 780 Ti (if/when I upgrade to a 2560x1440 Gsync monitor and still want to max out everything with upcoming titles, The Witcher 3 et al.) Pascal will be out (2016) and it may be more cost-efficient, both wattage and wallet-wise, to go with a single Pascal GPU instead of adding a second 780 Ti. I hear Pascal may be orders of magnitude faster than Kepler (Maxwell 40% or so faster so its an inference), so that would be the sensible thing to do. That is if I even feel the need to upgrade. Even only a single 780 Ti I should be mostly future-proof (the 3GB VRAM being the mostly part) for the next 5 years, even should I step up to 2560x1440 (might have to settle for less in the AA dept).

As far as any custom cooling loop being 20 C cooler than a Noctua NH-D15 under load, I beg to differ. I've never seen temps in the 50's (20 C lower than air cooling) and I've thoroughly perused the 4930 forums, most owners are relaying temps of 70-75 C with their custom cooling loops under load at 4.6-4.8 Ghz @ ~1.4-1.45 VCore, which doesn't deviate much (~5-10 C) from what the Noctua NH-D14 guys are relaying.

In fact, here is one video among many showing the difference between a custom cooling loop and a Noctua NH-D14, please take note that the NH-D14 runs 4-5 C hotter than NH-D15. Go to the 7:42 minute mark.



Far from 20 C, and again, with the improved design of the NH-D15 that load delta difference would shrink to ~5 C.

And as far as longevity is concerned, sure, the component a liquid cooler is attached to MIGHT see 5-10 C lower temps under load, but having a liquid cooler in every orifice is going to impede air-flow over all of the other components at best, and if set up as intake will be circulating hot air around the case at worst. Its crazy but this is what Corsair recommends doing. Very few advocate actually doing this, nearly all sensible review sources have the AIO coolers set up as exhaust. I believe Corsair is more concerned with making the AIO coolers appear more effective on paper by recommending they be set up as intake, even if doing so only reduces the temps by 3-4 C, while having the owners circulate warm air throughout their case, which is extremely relevant as far as longevity is concerned. They basically don't really give a damn about your components, they wan't better performance figures on paper so that they can move more units. I mean, that's really the only way I see it. It is absolutely nuts that they really recommend you set up the cooler as intake and not exhaust. I would imagine that if you had an AIO radiator in nearly every case orifice as intake that you could easily see 20-30 C greater temps in the case, over all of the components (minus the CPU and GPU) especially compared to an unconventional tower design such as the Air 540 that is 10 C cooler than conventional with unimpeded airflow:

http://www.anandtech.com/show/7124/corsair-carbide-air-540-case-review/5

As far as the GPU is concerned 65 C under load solely on air is pretty damn impressive to me. That is in a conventional tower, testing of the Air 540 showed ~5-10 C lower GPU temps on an overclocked and loaded GTX 580, so 60 C or lower isn't out of the question for this particular 780 Ti (EVGA SC w/ACX) in this particular case on default clocks, solely on air.

Now if I had a radiator in the front and the top of the case that air cooling, which benefits ALL the components, not just the CPU and GPU, would be history. If I had a reference AMD Radeon R9 290x, you bet I would want that thing on water, irrespective of cost, risk or hassle as 90+ C under load is not something that I am comfortable with.

Other than that, aside from going with a cheaper motherboard and CPU, the price/performance ratio of this system, especially considering the temperatures that can be expected, is going to be pretty damn tough to beat at $2200 (not counting the value of two free games, "Watch Dogs" and "Assassins Creed: Black Flag").

How much was your custom set up there all said and told? I have seen comparable builds for $3500 or more.

No an AIO cooler isn't better, that has been put to rest in every comparison to date, here is another one, take special note of the noise difference:

Noctua NH-D15 CPU Cooler Review - Test System Setup, Thermal Tests and Noise Results

To me 1 or 2 C cooler under load but being 20+ db louder doesn't qualify as better at all. Part of the noise can be mitigated by running Noctua fans, but only part as the pump is also noisy, and then with Noctua fans you need to add 5 C to the temps as although they are quieter they don't run at the higher RPM's and move the same amount of air as the fans that are supplied with the AIO coolers. All AIO reviews reflect an increase of ~ 5 C when switching to Noctuas. So that makes them immediately less performing while still noisier than the Noctua NH-D15. The reviews are somewhat inconsistent, the one above does show some of the AIO coolers ahead of the Noctua NH-D15 performance wise (but again, look at the noise and factor in the addition of 5 C and $40 to $80 by switching to Noctua fans to mitigate MOST but not all of it).

The following two reviews among other show the Noctua NH-D15 actually 1 or 2 C cooler than the H100i and H110 while also being about 20 C quieter and also $80 less expensive if 4 Noctua fans are added to the AIO coolers to mitigate the "scream" (look at the reviews on Newegg, they are all consistent with their characterization of the noise level of the Corair AIO coolers as screaming, whether that is a jet-scream or a person screaming) after which the H100i and H110 are not only no longer on par with the Noctua NH-D15 but are now actually 5 C warmer (and still noisier) (and still more expensive) (and still more riskier, yes leaks have happened and no Corsair wont pay you for lost components, go click on the 1 Egg reviews on Newegg).

Noctua NH-D15 Review - Testing and Results | bit-tech.net

 

One thing you need to remember Haswell does run hotter than Ivy,you don't get a 10% increase in performance without paying some sort of penalty in the case of Haswell its heat and lots of it. I don't have water cooling in every orifice only 2 connections to the cpu water block..that's all,no impedance to airflow whatsoever. I must be old i have never heard any pump noise from my previous Corsair H80i. If running Noctua cooler makes you happy then go for it but sooner or later when the overclocking bug bites you will want to clock higher and higher at which point the Noctua simply wont be able to cut it. For $2200 system it should perform pretty well...i did spend much more than that on mine but much of it such as the cooler i can carry over to the next system i build so from that point of view it was worth it. Any reason why you went down the X79 path?

 

If I were buying hardware today, it would be X79 as well. Haswell is not an option I would even remotely consider at this time. In my mind it has nothing to offer really, except for the elimination of SATA-2 ports. That's nice, but not a compelling enough reason to adopt the platform. 4930K and 4960K are both way better CPUs and that's the most important aspect of the system. There's no guarantee the next generation i7 is going to be backward compatible with the Haswell chipset. Intel can decide at the last minute to not do that, just as they have done in the past. Even if it is compatible, there is no guarantee that it will function correctly. They botched Haswell so bad that the idea of early adoption seems crazy... I'd take a wait and see approach and let a bunch of other folks go first. It's more fun to watch other people flush their money down the toilet than it is to do it with your own money. At the very least, the risk of getting a crappy CPU that doesn't overclock well is much lower with an X79 compatible CPU. The flaky nature of the silicon lottery with Haswell is a good enough reason to avoid it.

 

Update: Well I have some good news, although the computer still isn't together yet. I anticipated that the air cooler I was waiting to becoming available, the Noctua NH-D15, might cover the first pci-e slot as the predecessor just barely fit and the newer model is 10mm wider. Well that was confirmed yesterday, forcing me to reconsider going with this particular air cooler as I would no longer have the option of going SLI in the future without changing coolers as well. I'd rather have options, even if I probably wont add another GPU, and I don't like features of my motherboard being eliminated. So I started looking at the Noctua NH-D14 again and in the process discovered another, superior alternative, the Phanteks PH-TC14PE.

Here are some reviews of the Phanteks PH-TC14PE, I picked up a black-and-white one which is on sale at the moment on newegg for $69. I think it will look great in the arctic white and black Air 540. Comparable performance to the Noctua NH-D15, better looking, $40 cheaper and I can use the first PCI-E slot! I cancelled my pre-order of the Noctua, and I still don't know if it is available from quietpcusa.com yet, last time I spoke with them they said that the shipment was at customs and they anticipated getting them in today, but the way these things work out it could be next week or the week after. The newegg order I placed early this morning is being packaged and should be shipped out tomorrow. I have reiterate that I REALLY like the black-and-white color scheme of the Phantek, not that the Noctua wasn't handsome in its own way, but that this will gel extremely nicely with the black-and-white color scheme of my case and the motherboard. Oh and its still cooler than an H100i on "Max" while still being about 20-25 dB quieter (although sadly 1-3 dB louder than the Noctua).

Testing Methods and Results - Page 3

Phanteks PH-TC14PE Review | bit-tech.net

Phanteks PH-TC14PE & PH-TC12DX Coolers Review - Page 7

I am thinking of putting $25 of the $40 I saved switching air coolers towards Intel's Tuning Plan, which basically insures your CPU against overclocking catastrophe. I'm not kidding! $25, they will replace your CPU no questions asked! Experimented with 1.60 Vcore at 5.0 Ghz and its now showing diminished performance! Youre covered! Running 4.8 Ghz @ 1.45 V for two years and it craps out on you? Youre covered! (it complements the existing three year warranty).

Basically the reason Mr. Fox laid out, Haswell E is untested. Recent history has shown that new chipset and mobo technology can be beset with many serious irresolvable issues (the UEFI time-freeze issue on Z87 boards, who among the early adopters of Haswell saw that coming?) On top that Haswell was a flop. Does Intel intend to redeem themselves? I imagine, but again, some problems are unforeseeable irrespective of the determination of a tech industry leader.

X79 is solid and proven. Early adoption of new tech is a fools gambit.

Mr. Fox is a veteran in this hobby, these are words of wisdom right here.

 

Good idea getting intel performance tuning plan:thumbsup:,i have already done this...good for peace of mind,i haven't had any issues with Haswell in terms of bios freezing etc..for what i use my pc for its way ahead of the X79 system that i built,far better memory controller,better RAID support,faster boot times,in my case higher clocks etc. Unless you need more than 4 cores or plan on running more than 2 graphics cards in sli/crossfire or need more than 32GB of RAM personally i see no point in running X79. Vulcan78 your situation may be different perhaps you use your pc for different applications than what i do,maybe you dont want run a RAID set up...perhaps 3 way sli down the track?

 

Not too many people actually "need" more than 4 cores, but there's no such thing as too much power, and it would be fun for number chasing. Otherwise, the M18xR2 or the Alienware 18 are great gaming systems and there would be little gained for gaming... it would just be less portable. If I were going to find a way to justify building a desktop to replace my M18xR2 it would need to be a WHOLE LOT more powerful, and with only 4 cores to work with, the best overclocking Haswell desktop CPU samples are only a little bit to moderately more powerful... there is nowhere nearly as wide of a performance gap as the hex core processors leave in their wake. In fact, some of the highest 3DMark11 Physics scores with 4770K are not substantially higher than my 3920XM Physics scores (mid to high 11K, just under 12K). Most of the differences in benchmark results are attributable to the desktop GPUs more than the CPU. With the hex core K and X processors the gap in Physics scores is gigantic.

 

For XTU and most 3D benchmarks i agree more cores is better and for those benchmarks X79 is king there is no dispute about that. But benchmarks such as PC Mark 7 and a number of others 4770K is king i guess it comes down to what you use your computer for and which bench marks you enjoy number chasing from my own personal point of view having owned an X79 set up with 3930K i really wasn't that impressed with it,it is a server based platform and as such isn't the ideal general use pc platform. Hopefully X99 will be much much better and less restrictive in terms of compatibility and such ie:being able to use RST instead of RSTe (though some X79 boards have both). One other disapointing aspect of X79 is that its 1 generation behind main stream CPU's which being the HEDT platform it shouldnt be! At least X99 will be the first with DDR4 which should be good...

 

No actually I do care about boot time but not so much about raid. How is the memory controller better? With Ive E, maybe two additional cores will afford some improvement in CPU intensive games (Skyrim, GTA etc.) But primarily the system will be used for gaming.

4770k is better than 4930/4960 in PCMark 7?! Is this with default clocks? Because 4770k on default clocks is slightly faster than Ivy E in other benchmarks as well, say 3DMark, but once overclocking is added to the equation the 49XX far outpaces 4770k. The following benches don't include overclocked scores for PC Mark 7, if CPU computational power is a factor in the computational portion of the PCMark 7 bench, which I imagine it is, then I am pretty certain a 49XX at 4.8 Ghz is going to handily outperform a 4770k at 4.55 Ghz (or if youre another lottery winner or paid up for a binned 4770k, 4.55-4.8 Ghz) remember, ~20-25% of 4930's can hit 4.8 Ghz with 1.4V while only 1-5% of 4770k can. And then if you have adequate cooling whats another 5 mV?

Intel i7-4930K & i7-4820K Ivy Bridge-E Review - Page 17

Intel i7-4930K & i7-4820K Ivy Bridge-E Review - Page 9

Intel i7-4930K & i7-4820K Ivy Bridge-E Review - Page 4


The UEFI freeze issue didn't affect a majority of Z87 boards but it was an issue without a solution and that was one of the reasons I went with X79, to simply avoid the issue altogether. As with choosing an air cooler over liquid, even if the chance of leakage is only 1:1000, that isn't a chance I am willing to take. What if your number is up and youre the thousandth guy? You want to take that chance fine, not me.

Asus z87 Frozen Real Time Clock Bug

Well the reason I am migrating to PC isn't because my M18x R2 can't play 90% of existing games at near max settings at mostly 60 FPS, which it can, it is because of the calculated cost of having to get the system back up to speed by way of replacing components and costs required to maintain the system over the coming years. Non-overclocked 680M SLI can still play most games without a hitch, but playing around with Batman: Arkham Origins the other night I am noticing occasional slow-down and stumbling that wasn't there with the first play-through at +200 core/+400 memory with all of the settings maxed. Toggling between an Afterburner profile of +200 core/+400 memory and +0/+0 in Skyrim and there is a 10-15 FPS difference, which is a big deal when its going from say 40 FPS to 55 FPS, there is significantly less stutter. The same can be said for other demanding games, Crysis 3, Far Cry 3, Metro LL, Grand Theft Auto 4 with icEnhancer 2.1 (an ENB) etc (and games to come!).

Returning to this level of performance would require upgrading to new 780M SLI, for about $1100 to $1500 (depending on your source) or $550 (inside man) to $750 (upgradeyourlaptop, ebay) per card.

Then there is the likelihood of motherboard failure within at least a year or two, requiring another $300-400 for replacement.

The CPU, although seemingly built like a tank, has been seeing ~70 C for at least a third of its existence, with not too infrequent visits up into the high 80's and low 90's. What is the average lifespan of these mobile extreme processors? Three years? Four? Better add that in for safe measure.

$1100-$1500 GPU replacement
$300-$400 Motherboard replacement
$300-$400 CPU replacement

Total to be paid to maintain existing system within two to three years time: $1700-$2300.

Or, seeing as how I no longer need the mobility, I could spend roughly $2k to build a considerably faster, quieter, and cooler running desktop that should last ~10 years no problem especially considering its excellent cooling.

And not only would the desktop be 40% faster CPU-wise but it would also be 40% faster GPU-wise with only one GPU, which is worth pointing out considering there are still a few games that have poor SLI optimization or no SLI support altogether (Titanfall for example, you can't play it with 680M SLI even overclocked, Lagoon and Demeter are riddled with stuttering, part of it is the high VRAM requirement, well over the 2GB available with 680M) and on top of this single GPU being 40% faster there is an increase in available VRAM from 2GB to 3GB (its adequate for now, but I agree, 780 Ti should have 4GB).

Well that is a no-brainer, especially if you consider the life-expectancy of another three years with new components on a thoroughly used and overclocked system. It would simply be a matter of time before the new 780M's and motherboard and eventually CPU need to be replaced again. Given the current usage and average temperatures, would that be in another 2-3 years for the GPU, another 3-4 years for the motherboard and another 4 years for the CPU?

This desktop, with its considerably cooler environment (comparing an Air 540 to a laptop as far as internal cooling and temperatures is somewhat comical as the Air 540 is already ~10-15 C cooler than a conventional tower with ~10 C cooler CPU and ~5 C cooler GPU temperatures, with a conventional tower being an ice locker in comparison to the cramped confines of an M18x R2) and the best components money can buy, the best motherboard, the best cooling system (less complexity, great performance, AIO pumps typically fail in under 3 years), and the best non-reference Nvidia GPU presently available (that should only see load temps between 55-60 C in this case) should last at least a decade. Maybe 3-5 years from now I might consider either adding a second 780 Ti or upgrading to a single Pascal, but that is the only cost that I can imagine within that time-frame, and even then I might just stay with the single 780 Ti.

 

No need to explain. Just because you want to is a good enough reason for me. I'd love to build a new desktop, but it would only be for vanity's sake because I won't sit at a desk to use it. I sit at a desk for work 40-60 hours per week, which is enough to present a serious health risk already, and to add to that would be crazy on my part. I don't want to have anything to do with my office by the end of the day, LOL. I do not have 50-70% business travel like I used to... wish I did, but things change and business travel is expensive... so having the M18xR2 on the basis of frequent travel no longer has application for me. But gosh, I sure do love gaming in the family room recliner where the rest of my peeps are living.

 

If you like more cores, then the X99 Haswell-E octa cores are coming out later this year.

The Haswell has slightly faster single threaded performance, or you can say, per core Haswell is faster due to its architecture. But multithreaded performance the Ivy-E wins. It has much higher TDP. The other benefit of getting LGA 2011 CPU (Ivy-E/Haswell-E) over the LGA 1150 (Haswell) is that the die size of the Ivy-E/Haswell-E is/will be bigger than Haswell. That means even though the TDP is higher, the bigger die will help in dissipating heat into the heatspreader.

A desktop is definitely better if you look at it from the performance standpoint. You can easily build a system that hits P20k in 3Dmark 11. We all know about the compromise on an Alienware, and more are being made with each iterations it seems. Power limitation and heat limitation are 2 biggest factor. There's a price to pay for mobility.

 

I can imagine how you feel, after working at a desk for 40-60 hours a week the last place I would want to spend my time away from a desk would be at a desk. I spend a good bit of time at my computer, I am REALLY glad I invested in a good chair, a used Herman Miller Aeron. If I am too fatigued to sit upright but want to play something I'll just play something that is best with the wireless microsoft/xbox 360 controller, usually GTA 4 or Batman:AC.

But the best and most highly recommended kit for PC gaming is a good chair and I really like my Herman Miller Aeron. I recommend getting one used as new they are around $700. Used they might have a broken lever or maybe the hydraulic shock is going, but most of those parts are available on ebay (replaced my hydraulic shock a few months ago for $25.)

 

Unfortunately this is true, but only because they choose for it to be so. Alienware or any of their competitors could produce a mobile system where this is not true, but they choose not to... and people buy it anyway. As long as they can keep on selling mediocrity by the bucket load, there is no incentive to do better. Imagine a system with an Alienware-grade chassis, huge heat sinks, more than ample power supply and internal components better than the P570WM offers... it's a matter of will, not skill.

 

I figured that was why Ivy E is typically about 10-15 C cooler than Haswell under load. Yeah Haswell, especially 4770k has to have something going for it other than just a lower price range comparatively speaking for it to be so popular at the moment. As Scracy was saying, its probably the excellent price/performance ratio in conjunction with a superior memory controller, better boot-times, and RAID support etc. As I explained in the beginning of the thread, initially I had decided on 4770k but it was the prevalence of the "UEFI time-freeze" issue that compelled me to consider other motherboards and chipsets. I then ran across a comparison of the Ivy E 4820 and a 4770k, and how although the 4770k is slightly faster on default clocks the 4820 has a considerably higher OC headroom (larger die and lower temps) and then I started looking at LGA 2011 boards and discovered the R4BE, that then led me to consider paying up the $180 difference from 4820 to 4930.

To be honest, although I am excited to see what performance improvement I can expect in a few CPU intensive games, Skyrim being one that comes first to mind among others (certain areas with multiple enemies in Far Cry 3 believe it or not) I am not really sure the $500 or so difference between say a $200 Z87 board (Asus Maximus IV Hero for example) with an i7 4770k and $480 Asus Rampage IV Black Edition (R4BE) with an i7 4930k is really worth it in the end.

Yes 15k+ Physics score in 3DMark 11 is going to be great. Yes having 1 out of 4 4930's able to do 4.8 Ghz at 1.4 V or less vs. 1 out of 20 4770k's is promising. And seeing 10-15 C lower temps day in and day out is also going to assist longevity. But in the end I could have built a solid computer with adequate CPU power for 90% of games and applications for $500 less.

I think part of it is as Mr. Fox pointed out, a 4770k isn't really any better than a mobile 3920, I'm seeing nearly 11k Physics in 3DMark11, and part of making the move to desktop exciting is the prospect of stepping up to a hex-core processor that can be pushed to 4.8 Ghz while still not seeing temps under load much higher than 70 C. That is a huge improvement, going from a 4.5 Ghz 3920 that can see 85 C even with excellent TIM (Coolaboratory Liquid Ultra), elevated and with the fans manually set at a shrieking 4200 RPM (51 dB, as documented here, with idle being 32 dB) to a 4.8 Ghz hex-core 4930 that might see 70 under similar load while only producing 36 dB of noise (Phanteks PH-TC14PE).

The same can be said for the GPU, both noise and thermal wise.

And so the final question is, was that jump worth it? $500 is a bit of money. To me I say yes it was worth it, I already did the math before making the decision. Lower temps over the life-span of the processor combined with a world record breaking motherboard (special 10k black metallic capacitors, a robust heat-sink, ability to store and load two different BIOS etc.) ought to contribute to the longevity of the system in the end. And with a hex-core I am somewhat future-proof should better multi-threading support become standardized with future game development, which the introduction of Haswell E will help with, more 6 and 8 core CPU's among the gaming population will compel developers to improve support, its just an issue of technology begetting software/programming support, the chicken before the egg.

It is stupid but I am excited to see what kind of physics/CPU benchmark scores I can get with the new 4930, having spent so much time fiddling around with Flex VID on the R2 simply to realize another 100 Mhz, (4.5 Ghz to 4.6 Ghz) only to realize its too much voltage!

Air cooler should be here either Saturday or Monday (UPS).

I still have a few things to do to get ready, for one I am transferring over the SSD that Windows is on for the M18x R2 to the desktop, so I need to figure out if there is a way I can move Windows and the rest of C:/ drive to an external HDD and then back onto a spare 2.5" HDD that I pulled out of my M17x R2 without an issue. From what I gather so far, this is actually impossible to do. Any ideas?

 

We know its possible, question is whether or not the general consumer population will want one and will be willing to pay up above what the current asking price is.

 

A huge heatsink purely for the CPU is not really required. They could daisy chain the heatsinks together with heatpipes. We also need thicker fans that can push more air, too much space is wasted in the chassis, given how thick it is. Not a good design by my book.

Mr. Vulcan if you like hex core a lot, why not wait for the X99 Haswell-E? It won't have the compromise with the aging X79 chipset. Having a much bigger die, it will probably run cooler than Haswell. And although it remains to be seen, I am confident that it will outperform the Ivy-E CPUs. Intel could mess around with the consumer quad core CPUs, but HEDT is a shrinking market and they don't usually mess with it. Seems like they usually learn their stuff from the consumer, and they fix it when it comes to the pro-sumer CPUs (LGA 2011).

We need early adopters like you so the rest of us can know whether we should pull the trigger.

 

I think it's too late to wait, isn't it? Done deal already, or so I thought.

Plus, there is no guarantee of what the future holds in store. There is only speculation and hope. Why not enjoy just enjoy the crap out of the Ivy-E beast and kick back to see what kind of drama might play out with Haswell-E. There's certainly no need for urgency or compulsion to act on a timeline, and Haswell-E will only be an upgrade away if it truly turns out to be an Ivy-E slayer in terms of performance.

 

He will need to upgrade the motherboard and CPU down the road. Just saying, if it's me, I would wait for the X99 chipset. If I am going for quad core, I would wait for the Devil's Canyon 4790K. Also, if he's not being an early adopter, soon it will be me who will be early adopter.

If one is going for the aging X79 chipset, then the person should get the 4930K or 4960X. I don't think it's the wisest choice to get the LGA 2011 platform, just to put a quad core in. But I rest my case. Mr. Vulcan has a budget in mind. To overclock the heck out of a quad core CPU, the 4820K is the best pro-sumer CPU.

Would the bug get to you? When you look at the benchmark results of the 4820K, and then you look at someone's 4930K, would you feel, "oh man, I just wish I had spent that extra 300 dollars"? I know I would, that's why no less than hexa core CPU for me in a desktop, although I fully know that 95% of the time I won't need the full performance.

Intel Broadwell CPUs to Arrive Later This Year

Multiplier-Unlocked Pentium G3258, Core i7-4790K and Core i5-4690K Listed | techPowerUp

Food for thought.

 

Grab a 4770K, de-lid it and use a manually adjusted heatsink on the bare die or replace the paste with ic diamond if you actually want to properly overclock.

 

Vulcan got a 4930K, but otherwise I agree with you. Waiting for Haswell-E and X99 is exactly what I'm doing as well.

 

Oh I had to go back many pages to find this post: http://forum.notebookreview.com/ali...ktop-i-always-talked-about-7.html#post9655570

Good that he went 4930K.