So, uh, my GPUs failed. Again.

I did ask if the 780M's are an option, sadly they are not. And I seriously doubt that they'd offer any better parts elsewhere, given that the manager is claiming that £300 is a significant discount for the 880M's...

I'm a bit torn. It's a fair price for quite a big leap in GPU performance even with all the issues that the 880M's have, and the extra VRAM will be useful if devs continue to be lazy with their ports (2GB is a problem in a few games right now). And a screen that's not as reflective as a mirror is also appealing. But I'm sacrificing CPU performance, as well as a number of other downsides like the locked down BIOS.

I'm leaning towards sticking with my current computer, as I'm leaning towards building a mini-ITX desktop next year (with a top end GPU, of course) and eventually replacing my M18x with a reasonably powerful but much smaller and cheaper computer for travelling. With that as my plan now, spending that £300 rather than saving it for a better desktop seems silly.

I'll see what quote they come up with for the specs I've sent them (minimum for everything bar GPUs).

 

Getting 780m"s for free is a stretch, but worth the effort to try. 780M's are not in the same class as the 7970M was in it's best days (The 680M would be). So they gave him 680M's since this would be the far better upgrade at the time instead of trying the 7970M's yet again. His base config is still 7970m's. Had it been 680M's then he would have gotten 780M's
Now. If he pays on the upgrade and something happens later...He has a better shot at getting something more uptodate because he "paid" on his upgrade. (speculation of course)

 

Nah don't have an XTU overclock at all. It's really strange, and I'm not 100 percent sure that it was related to the video bios but I'm going to be safe and just keep it stock for now. It did flash a few times on boot-up right after I had reflashed it back to the default bios but hasn't done it since then and I gamed for about 40 minutes this morning.

 

well i'm just reading the first page here but, this sound like typical OEM failure. The best they can do is fix it but, they can not repair it. There is flaw of some sort, weather it be cooling firmware and what not.

I guess keep replacing GPUs until the warranty runs out. it would be cheaper for them to just give you a better laptop if they are going to keep failing.

 

It's been a while, so I think it's about time I left an update.

At the end of the day, I decided against paying £300 extra for 880M's in a new 18. It was tempting, but it's not a huge upgrade over 680M's as it stands, and there are plenty of downsides to the 18 compared to my M18x R2. So I chose to just have my current system repaired (if possible), and it's currently sitting in a depot somewhere. I might ask if they want to replace the AC adapter as well, just in case that's what's blowing up my system.

Luckily I found my ancient M17. One GPU is dead, the wireless card is missing, and several of the keyboard keys are held on with tape. But it still works, at least.

 

Let's hope the depot has got its act cleaned up. See comments below.

 

Depot and in-home repair techs are always a mix of good and bad. If the wrong person gets their paws on it, it's going to get screwed up. If someone with skill and care for the property of others works on it things will turn out great.

This is no different with anything else... call the wrong plumber or take your car to the wrong mechanic and you're screwed. Some folks have had great experiences with Depot and in-home repair techs and others have had bad ones. The best option is parts-only and fix it yourself if you are not scared of doing the work and are not the type that breaks everything you touch. There are some types of parts and repairs that parts-only dispatch is not allowed, and that can vary based on who you speak with.

I have had no bad experiences with an in-home repair (very good technician in my area) and my only depot repair was so-so... nothing major, but not perfect. The depot repair was super fast and my beast came back with the problem it went in for all fixed. There were a few minor details that I had to get taken care of after the fact (missing screws, palm rest not attached correctly and center control panel (keyboard bezel) tabs broken off on the rear edge near the display hinges. The aluminum lid on the LCD was not installed correctly. I fixed all of those issues in just a few minutes. I would have taken it apart to inspect their work and make sure everything was done correctly even if nothing had been visibly wrong from the outside, so I did not get too worked up about it.

They shipped my system back with a note saying the drives were defective and replacement parts would be sent to my home later because they were out of stock. I immediate knew that was not accurate because there was nothing wrong with the drives when it left for the depot. After reading their note I pulled the bottom cover to have a look. The BIOS refused to detect them only because the SATA interposer cable was not connected to the motherboard. The depot technician simply forgot to plug it into the connector. I returned the new drives without taking them out of their anti-static bags.

I was not angry, just a bit disappointed in the lack of skill or care demonstrated by the employee that worked on it. Alienware took care of the missing screws, etc. I had no doubt they would do so... they always have. All of these were simple to fix, but could have easily been avoided if the person working on it had simply paid closer attention. I know that good help is hard to find, and employees with technical skills that care about customers are becoming unfortunately rare. Knowing this first-hand from my own experiences at the huge corporation that I work for now, and those were I have worked in the past, I cannot say that I was surprised even a little bit. This kind of thing with incompetent employees is so common I would have been more surprised if everything had turned out perfectly. (I know, it's very sad, but true.) I was mainly happy to have it back and working well.

 

ii heard depot is BAD news!

i am currently waiting until monday on status on mines.. waiting for my warranty to show up and a technician to come over, ugh this is soooooooo frsutrating!
i thought alienware was known for having good gamng laptops?

 

No matter how good a laptop gets, sometimes bad stuff happens. My D900F lasted under supreme load for 4 years. My P370SM3 seems it might need a new power adapter and power button soon; it's barely been a year and I haven't even used it for 4 months+ out of the year I've had it for. Go figure.

 

I didn't have much of a choice in the matter. And in this case, I agreed to a depot trip over a regular technician callout because we didn't know exactly what the issue was, and hence what needed replacing was still unknown. It may simply have been a bad motherboard, but there might have been more to it than that.

Unfortunately, as this is the UK and the support here is pretty poor compared to the US, I really doubt they'd ship the parts to me and let me install them myself. This executive told me that they 'don't recommend users modify their computers' when I said that my own wireless card was in it (as I didn't have the stock card at the time to install before sending it out to the depot), so he probably wouldn't have been happy with me rebuilding it myself. I didn't mention that I'd already taken it apart on multiple occasions and repasted it, amongst other things...didn't want him to start accusing me of breaking the warranty terms, whether or not he'd be right, as I really don't want to have to potentially escalate this to a court of law.


I was called earlier today by the exec, they've supposedly fixed my computer and it's being put through thorough quality control before being sent out. He said that he was hopeful it'd still be dispatched today, but I've heard nothing since then, so I'm not too hopeful of that. Oh well, to cheer me up, I've ordered a shiny new 512GB Crucial MX100 to put in it when it gets back, as they're currently going dirt cheap (for an SSD).

 

No, Dell UK will NOT ship out parts for a user to replace themselves.....they treat us like idiots who do not have the knowledge to replace parts ourselves. I had a service request for speakers (yes, really easy to replace) but they told me that it was not a user-serviceable part........god knows what they DO deem as user serviceable....probably ram/hdd and that is our lot in the UK.

I, for one, am sick and tired of the division between US and UK when it comes to Dell. They forget that these computers are OUR computers, not theirs......if I want to work on MY machine, I WILL. If I break something, I take responsibility. This level of dictatorship is totally unacceptable to me.....

Anyway, rant over. Hope you get your machine back and working properly. Fingers crossed.

 

I really don't seem to have luck on my side with this computer.

Just received a very apologetic phone call from the manager, the computer failed testing and is going in for repair again. In his words, they're replacing pretty much all of it ( again). By my suggestion, they're also going to send out a replacement PSU when (if) my system finally ships out, just in case the PSU has been causing problems.

Not much more I can do or say, really. I can't really fault Dell, they're honouring the warranty and haven't made a fuss without doing so. It'd be nice if they gave me an upgrade but they're not under any obligation to do so, and I'm not taking a replacement 18 if it doesn't have top end nVidia GPU's in it. I just seem to be having ridiculously s***ty luck with this system.

After all this, I'm fairly sure my next primary system will be a mini-ITX desktop build, and not a high end laptop. I've seen firsthand how small they can get (not much bigger than an Xbox One) while keeping an overclocked i5/i7 plus a top end GPU after building one for my brother, and I wouldn't be going through all this trouble in such a system.

 

Assuming everyone is "like me" might explain that. They are treating you like family.

Part of the problem is they consider these " their products." They assume (unrightfully) to know what is best and try to coerce customers to remain within the confines of their product model. Secure Flash is but one example of this mentality. BGA-mounted CPU and GPU in an Alienware machine are additional examples of it. As long as that Secure Flash filth exists and they do not provide us with a way to turn it off if we don't want it, I will not buy another Dell or Alienware computer. As soon as the FedEx tracking number is attached to the box and it leaves their warehouse it no longer belongs to them. They have no right whatsoever to impede, restrict or otherwise interfere in what end-users do with the product. This Nazi style is not unique, but its new for Alienware and certainly unwelcome. This is the same cancerous mindset that dominates the Apple cult to the point it is totally accepted by their zombie customer base, and the same strain of cancer has metastasized at Micro$haft.

 

I also dislike that using custom BIOSes on a machine seems to void its warranty. Who told you to lock it? I asked for it unlocked. Do I have to deal with this in desktop land? No? So why on your mobile stuff? Aren't you trying to advance mobile hardware and make it a respectable piece of the market?

 

Yes you do, especially with Nvidia GPU's. Figures, right?

 

To be fair I think he's talking about the system BIOS. At least on high end desktop motherboards I haven't heard of a locked BIOS.

 

I was talking about system BIOSes actually XD. I don't know a lot of people who play with custom desktop GPU vBIOSes though.

Also, my vBIOS change MUST take place; because at 120Hz I get artifacting with stock vBIOS. It's an actual need (which was fixed with 880M stock vBIOS, as stupid as that is).

 

Anybody with a desktop Kepler card who's trying to overclock it worth a damn needs to flash a custom vBIOS as Nvidia forces them to be volt and power locked. That gimping is almost as bad as what you have to deal with on mobile, except without the +135 MHz core limit.

 

I mean just from the fact apple uses torx screws rather than philips shows how much apple doesn't like users touching the components

 

Yeah, I really hate it when OEMs act stupid like that...

With some of the newer crApple products even the memory is soldered to the motherboard. The drive is about the only thing that can be upgraded.

Stinking arrogant runt offspring of female canines. Is there no end to how stupid they expect their customers to be? And, are they? Seems like it, because they put up with it. Like lambs led to slaughter, they gobble up that feces like chocolate candy. After all, their messiah, Lord Jobs, made it so it has to be good. And, to be clear about it this affects all of us... Monkey see, monkey do... Micro$haft and most laptop OEMs are copying their extremely bad ideas, too.

Example: Social experiment to test our tolerance for mediocrity? http://forum.notebookreview.com/alienware/759061-new-alienware-13-a.html Anybody hungry? Hot poop here... come and get it!

 

actually, soldered RAM may not be bad as it sounds, depends on it's done. the pre-production of model of NX500 has 8GB soldered and one extra SO-DIMM for upgrades. if that's the case, it's not that bad compared to ahem, razer, ahem.
but yeah, there are two things that definitely shouldn't exist
1. warranty stickers
2. locked bios

 

It's not even just soldered RAM. Apple uses proprietary SSD's, so drive upgrades are basically out the window too. Razer is the same way, but of course they've only been copying Apple since day one...

 

And the children smile with every swallow... like a 'possum eating dukey.

No, this is your brain on drugs. It's not OK. It's a shiny object, but it's not good.

Yes, Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny are real. I see them at the shopping mall every year around those holidays.

 

ok fine, no soldered RAM. one day I just hope MXM can get smaller so it fits in thin and light notebooks, and one day I hope the mobos don't have 60A limit on current

 

So, make MXM smaller so it literally ruins everything for everyone else that does not want a thin and light pile of excrement? That's just as dangerous as thinking soldered RAM might be OK. A little bit of leaven leavens the whole lump. Can't have it both ways... compromise and mediocrity are the enemies of excellence.

 

The current MXM modules are plently small and about a couple of PCB's worth of Z height anyway. The real reason for soldering these parts is to force people to upgrade their whole machine so everyone can be resold parts they already had. Slim form factor is largely a cop out excuse for BGA disposable products.
It's amazing how marketing influences people's hierarchy of needs. We have to marvel at the schizophrenic consumer as cell phones grow effortlessly into massive bricks that can no longer fit in trendy pockets or ... man bags , then the same demographic whinging their laptop's need a bag to carry around or are too heavy.

I think I'm going to get back into markeing again for the lulz.. and I've noticed snake oil is going to do well. Maybe I could start reversing this mess by bringing a Dual GPU Super-large screen, Oct-core, windows based, AC power adaptable, external input friendly, upgradable "smart phone" to market - each sold with a personalized Starbucks nameplate for future store discounts.

A picture is worth a thousand words...

 

LOL, that's SO TRUE. That picture is hilarious, but it does nicely illustrate how deep the roots of stupid actually run. Consumers are the driving force in every form of stupidity imaginable. Producers will produce whatever the fad says is yummy as long as they can make money off the stooges that want everything their friends say makes them cool.

 

Brilliant. Now my old M17 is dead as well, primary GPU failed two nights ago. I can conclude that if a deity exists, I must have done something to seriously annoy him/her/it.

If I'm lucky, I might have a working computer by the end of the week. And if I'm really lucky, maybe that computer will actually work for another two years. But I think I'm done with Dell. This whole experience has been deeply unpleasant. While they still offer a replacement, they still refuse to offer one with 880M's. Say of me what you will, but I still find it deeply unfair that they refuse to match the 680M's. As I've said before, I wasn't asking for a replacement because I want an upgrade, I was asking for one because my laptop might have required extensive part replacements (and, as it turns out, it does) and because I fear that it might keep going wrong if the depot misses something. But it really stings that they won't match the performance of my current computer after all of the crap that has happened to me.

Oh, and the manager complained about me trying to email Michael Dell directly to see what he thinks of the situation. (I still hope to hear a response from Mr. Dell himself, but I doubt I'll get one.) It's clear that this manager isn't interested in keeping me as a future Dell customer, so I'm happy to oblige when it's time to replace my computer. Those Clevos are suddenly looking all the more attractive...

 

I'm sorry to hear that, Bro - but this thread is getting very tired. Just ACCEPT the replacement that Dell have offered you in the format of the new 18. It might not have 880m's, but they aren't the be all and end all, especially given the issues that they seem to have. Really and truthfully, you cannot expect to have Dell offer you a spec significantly over and above what you originally had - you got a gratis upgrade already, even though you've had problems, but warranty is based off ORIGINAL spec, not what Dell gave you in the meantime to sweeten things (I know, it happened to me, too - but I kinda knew that my 580m's were an upgrade from my original 6990m's so I really couldn't expect Dell to bump them up yet again)......but there is no way you should get 880m's - I'm sorry, but that's the cold hard truth and no amount of crying about it is going to get you them.......maybe if you were in the US, it'd be different, but you're not and we in EMEA territory have to deal with a 'different' kind of Dell. The US guys don't appreciate it because they don't see it (no slur on our US brothers) because they don't get that kind of treatment. I imagine if a US customer had gone through what you have, they'd have a maxed out beast in a heart beat, more often than not. I've seen it before, many times and it is one of (if not THE main) reasons I will not buy a £3k+ laptop again from Dell UK with warranty being like it is.......

My advice to you would be to get the best spec brand new replacement as you can, sell it and go desktop or Clevo if that's what you want.

Whilst we all sympathise with your plight, I think at this point now, it's getting to be self-inflicted plight as you have an 'out' and it's a decent 'out' but you carry on refusing it......god knows why.....

Oh, and if you think you'll get a reply from 'Mr. Dell' himself, you'll be waiting a LONG time........the email address you wrote to is just generic for Dell's Executive Resolutions Team - it's not a hotline to Michael whilst he's sipping cocktails in the Bahama's....

 

Agreed, OP you should have accepted the replacement they gave you long ago... You had dual 7970Ms originally so them offering you dual R9 290MX is perfectly legit... Don't expect special treatment from them... Take it and please stop whining here...

 

Perhaps I was whining, Tom, but perhaps you would be too if you had a $3,000 computer with this many hardware failures over the course of 6 months. I've already thoroughly explained my reasoning behind what I've asked for. Nor was a replacement the only way, they were happy to repair my current computer and I saw no reason to take a replacement that was a downgrade while my computer was still repairable. But don't worry, I wasn't going to whine any more. Stevie is right that this thread is long enough already.

As it stands, my 'whining' seems to have paid off. The manager is currently pulling strings to get me a replacement with 880M's, and it should hopefully be a done deal tomorrow.

I apologise to those I've annoyed by filling this thread with whining. I still stand by everything I've said, but I shouldn't have filled page after page of this thread with it. If you're going to judge me, keep in mind that I would have much rather kept my original system (with the AMD GPUs) than have all of these problems in the first place.

 

I'm happy for you, but I do not agree that you should have got (or might get) 880m's........ as they say, be careful what you wish for.........

 

Do you mean that you don't think I deserve them (in which case, fair enough, I can see why you'd think/say that) or do you mean that I should have avoided them because of the issues they have with throttling?

Even with the throttling, they are faster than my current 680M's, so I don't mind that much. I might even underclock the core by 50MHz or so to maintain more consistent performance. A repaste with IC Diamond will hopefully manage the throttling a fair bit.

 

I'm just saying that regardless of deserving them or not, I personally would not have held out for GPU's that have issues when Dell had clearly made you a good offer on a replacement already I wish they had done the same with me during my issues - but your offer (unlike mine) was an offer that was more than adequate, given your original specification. It was your choice to push for 880m's......I hope you did your research on them before holding out for them.....M290x Crossfire would have beat your 680m's - I just think you wanted the 'kudos' of having the best of the supposed best......

Just didn't fancy paying for yet another 'free upgrade' yourself springs to my mind. Dell's offer was fair, but you've pushed it and pushed it and complained an moaned at every turn - fair play to you, why not try. I just don't agree with the outcome, and I certainly don't agree that Dell should have offered you that when I got stuffed up the rear BIG TIME by Dell over a replacement spec not so long ago - not sour grapes at all - I just wish there was some continuity with the way Dell dealt with things, if there had have been for me, then I might have still been an avid 'beast' owner.....but if you are happy, I'm glad you are.

 

Well rest assured. Once you get your new 880M's you will be right back in the same boat. LOL

 

In all honesty, the whining over the last week or so has been more to do (or at least, started by) how long my computer had been nonfunctional for. If it had been fixed and returned a week ago, I wouldn't be whining, nor would I have asked any more about a replacement.

I've done some research on the 880M's and have a fair idea of what I'm getting. They still outperform 780M's at stock (from what I've seen) and I'm not particularly interested in overclocking GPUs after blowing this many of them up, even if prior failures haven't been from overclocking. (I think a minor memory overclock was what finally killed my M17 on Saturday...) The M290X's would have been equivalent to 680M's in performance, but...again, as I said earlier, I just don't want to deal with AMD GPUs again. It's not that I wanted the 'best', I just wanted nVidia GPUs that were as fast. Were 860M's as quick, I'd have accepted them. Were 870M's on offer, I'd have asked for those.

Yeah, what I've been through is nothing compared to your horror story. I was shocked to hear how Dell dealt with your problems...I do agree that in an ideal world, there would be consistency with how they deal with things, particularly consistency between the US and other regions, but sadly that's unlikely to happen.

I'm probably still unlikely to spend this much on a laptop again, as it just makes more sense to me to make a small (and beastly) desktop and have a smaller, but still fairly powerful, laptop for use away from home. But after how Dell resolved this, I'm likely to take another look at the AW line for that laptop. Something like the 14 would be a good fit.

 

Holed'em up there speed racer. They do not outperform 780m's fresh out of the box in an overall comparison. Maybe a test or two after they have been flashed and you work with them for quite a long time.... They might.

 

Well...faster than 680M's then? So long as they're equal to or better than 680M's, I really don't mind.

As I said, I plan on a repaste (IC Diamond, considering CL Liquid Ultra but don't want to risk it with all the exposed circuitry around the GPU die) and if that's not enough to keep it from throttling, or keep it cool enough with the modded vBIOS, then I'll underclock the core a bit. Hopefully that will be enough.

If not...well, that's my mistake, and my punishment for crying so much, I suppose?

 

LOL! Gotta love how you're trying to downplay it. Nice! B+ for effort.

I can't really say anymore because everyone has their own views on the subject, but I do hope you do have good luck with them!

 

Only a B+? Damn, I've got to try harder then!

I'll make these cards work, no matter what! Nothing will stop me getting the most out of them!

Eh... I think that was a little too much effort.

Anyway, I really am genuine when I say I just want 680M performance. So long as I can get that out of the cards, anything more is a bonus.

 

LOL!
That they are. Far better than 680's so you will be fine there.

 

This is just flat out false. 880M out of the box beats a stock 780M out of the box. The lowest core I've seen the 880M throttle to with the stock vbios is 888MHz and the average is still between 920 and 940MHz.

The problem is that the clocks go up and down constantly. The cards do outperform stock 780M in both games and benchmarks, just check notebookcheck.

The 340.56 driver is close to perfect for the 880M now as well. Early drivers sucked so that didn't help.

The temps are a nightmare though...

Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk

 

Since I haven't owned 880M--and based on what an abortion it seems to have turned out to be it is highly unlikely that I ever will--I cannot validate the accuracy of it beating 780M out of the box. But, "beating" is really subjective terminology. If the temps are a nightmare and the behavior is erratic, how does that qualify as a win for 880M? Relying on notebookcheck for information is pretty dangerous for any consumer. In fact, I suspect doing so is how so many people ended up with a pile of crap that gets emasculated by an otherwise identical system with 780M GPU(s). Everything we see around us demonstrates that GTX 880M is a flawed product, and it appears that NVIDIA intends to do nothing about its flaws. Based on what I see, that doesn't qualify it as "beating" 780M at anything. In fact, I don't know that it is actually better than 680M when you start looking at the big picture instead of relying on notebookcheck for canned information.

 

I actually personally ran all of the benchmarks that notebookcheck ran, with my CPU set to the same clock base and turbo clock speed as the CPU they used, and I was able to duplicate their results with stock vbios within a 0-3% difference with an average of 1.2% which could easily be attributed to Prema's modded bios on my machine unlocking pcie 2.0

So yes, they beat a stock 780M. The maximum everyday overclock is higher on a 780M though thanks to around a 10C lower max temp...

As for the throttle, its subtle enough that you don't notice it happening unless you know to look for it. The clocks jump around so quickly that the average core speed still runs over 920MHz and that's a Valley run... Its around 940MHz when gaming.

It's irritating that nVidia released the cards how they did but I'm a strong believer they intentionally crippled them to increase the heat. These cards can hold some seriously high core clocks if you can manage to cool them. With Maxwell cards on the horizon, less people would upgrade if they could run a 1200 core 24/7...

Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk

 

Sorry, they did not beat my stock 780M. And since I know that as a 100 percent fact. Considering I had one of the very first 880M's. That pretty much makes it true.


Edit:
Let me stop instigating before it gets out of control.

Side note. My 880M gaming benchmark.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOoLIWBIMQY
No where remotely close to 80 or 90 degrees, but it is one card.

 

One Nvidia gtx880m graphics card running a clock frequency of 953-993mhz, while my gtx780m has a small overclocking at 849/1400 MHz with a standard VBIOS and has a corresponding score as gtx880m. With temperatures that are much lower than the new gtx880m. How can it be that a graphics card can have the same score, but over 100MHz lower clock frequency? There must be something strange with the new gtx880m graphics card.

 

Even if I need to underclock the core to 900MHz or so to achieve performance consistency, that's still quite a bit faster than a 680M. Not to mention the 8GB of VRAM, while excessive, means I won't be hitting the issues with maxing out the video memory I was hitting in a few games, such as heavily modded Skyrim (framerate was fine but it would stutter a lot because of maxing out the VRAM).

I definitely shouldn't need to, and I agree that it's a flawed product and it's pretty damn bad tha nVidia refuses to acknowledge or fix it, but I'd still rather put up with that than the AMD alternative after the huge software and hardware issues I had with the 7970M's (which, after all, use the same core as the M290X's). At least with 680M's, my computer had the decency to work until it died...the 7970M's were problematic from day one and routinely did something to annoy me.

 

Where did you find the 340.56 driver?

Thanks

Jack

 

Sorry, 340.52, was a typo.

Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk

 

Replacement specifications are confirmed and are in my sig below.

I plan to install a Crucial MX100 SSD, and set up the 80GB SSD as a separate drive (not a cache) with a Windows 7 installation from my M18x's recovery discs. (I believe the disc should work with the system? And can anyone please point me towards how I remove the SSD as a cache?)

Once I'm sure the system is working, I also plan on repasting the CPU with the little bit of liquid ultra I have left (hopefully it's enough) and repasting both GPUs with IC Diamond.

Thanks for all the help and advice, guys. It's much appreciated, and I'll hand out some rep once I'm back on a computer. And my apologies once again for all my whining.