64 bit os on a Area 51 9750 using all 4gb of ram

Hello all, I sent this response to "Chaz" answering his question if he could see all 4gb of ram on a 9750 while running a 64 bit os. He encouraged me to repost my response here as a new thread. This is my take on the situation and I am totally open to comments. Some of the points I bring up are not purely technical, but also of a strategic nature on the part of Alienware. My goal here is to encourage Alienware to support a bios updates that support more possibilities than what they sell you directly.

------------- original private message to Chaz------------
Chaz, I have three 9750 with 2-2gb memory sticks. They came with 32-bit vista ultimate and a total of 4GB memory each. I upgraded the bios to the latest with the tech on the phone and now the bios sees 4gb of ram but claims to have only 3gb available to the os. One laptop has vista 32 bit and sees 3gb of memory. The second has Fedora core 7 64-bit and sees 3gb of memory. Determined, I have taken the time to compile a 64-bit version of Gentoo completely from scratch with all the optimizations and still only 3GB.

This is the output from the linux command "free -m"
total used free
Mem: 3096784 1091012 2005772

I have spent more than a few minutes on tech support and finally got to a high enough level of technical management that was willing to own the statement, "We don't support in hardware beyond what we sell in software. Alienware doesn't support a 64-bit OS as a packaged product so there is no reason to expect as a customer to be able to have a 64-bit os see all 4GB of ram."

Alienware is delivering custom bios upgrades targeted at the specific os they deliver with your computer. Since they don't sell a 64-bit os with a 9750, the latest bios will start mapping downward from 4gb, if you have 4gb or ram, all the memory locations that are necessary such as video cards etc. Your random access memory starts from zero gb mapping upward. The top part of RAM can't share the same locations as our video cards so the bios only allows your os to see the difference of 4gb minus the other installed hardware memory requirements. I am so glad now that I only bought the one video card, because if I had bought two, I would have seen even less memory, probably about 2.5 GB.
The top part of your 4gb is there and the computer knows it. The bios denies access to it to give that address space to the various cards.

So, Alienware has constrained all os's 64-bit or 32-bit to the limitations of a 32-bit os when it comes to total available memory. The fix is simple, provide a bios update that would allow the address space for video cards and the like to be mapped to locations above 4gb and then there would be no collision of address spaces. This would not allow you to run a 32 bit os, but a bios that allowed a choice between 64 bit compatibility or 32 bit compatibility would be the immediate fix.

The comment that really set me off was, "You are obviously not a gamer, and gamers are happy with our systems, you are expecting too much!"

Cheers.
------------------End original private message to Chaz---------------

 

I would kill that person. However, he may have a point. I don't think that their current platform (P945) supports 4GB of RAM in the same way Santa Rosa does. They have great systems and I would really like to hear that people can run Windows x64 on their Alienware systems. It's a normal thing to ask for, since 4GB of RAM means x64.

 

This is a fantastic source of information, thanks for clarifying the issue of 4GB of RAM on the M9750. You really did put a lot of effort into finding out what exactly was going on with the memory recognition situation.

I suppose Alienware doesn't want to take the time to make a new BIOS, which is disappointing. However let's hope they catch onto the fact that users want to be able to see all 4GB of RAM and respond appropriately.

 

Yeah, users will want to see 4GB, but no one will want to run x64 on it, because it has "compatibility issues and poor driver support" . Anyway, I also believe that the limitation is in the 945 chipset.

 

Let me state this another way. When the 32 bit operating system that is running a given hardware platform can only provide an addressable home for 4gb of ram and we try to stuff 5 and a half gigs of ram into it, somethings gotta give. I say 5 and a half gigs because if you start with 4 gigs or RAM add 1 gig of Video ram, for two cards, and another half gig of other things that require addressable memory, it adds up to more than the 4GB of address space addressable by 32 bits. Something has to go "homeless" and in the case of choosing between RAM and video, I chose to only have one video card in my machines so an equal amount of ram would not have to go homeless. That is why I have 3GB of usable memory and others in these forums that bought two video cards for increased performance only show 2.5 GB of ram. They had to give the address space of half of one gig to the video card. If I had a game that only required a single gig of memory to run, I could install two more video cards, if they fit, of a half gig each, paint one forth of the screen with each card and still play with only 1.5 gb of available ram. My 2.5 gigs of homeless ram, "without address" would still be there, but my bios had chosen to lie to my OS and say it wasn't there.

My problem with the latest bios upgrade from Alienware is that they took the time to show you that you actually do have the 4 gigs physically installed, because it didn't even used to show that, to keep you from pulling off the back and looking at the actual chips, but then still had the gull to show in another line the amount available to the OS no matter if it is 32 bit or 64 bit.

By simply adding a single bit of address space to the bios IE. 33 bits, it could address the various cards out at 8gb counting down and there would be no overlap with our 4gb of ram. Of course this would break a 32 bit os, but would work great for a 64-bit os. So a selection in bios of 64 bit or 32 bit os would be in order

I am a Linux geek and don't know much about driver issues with Windows, but I do have 64 bit gentoo installed and everything is working with the single exception of the built in camera. That is not because it is a 64 bit os, it is because the chipset in the camera is not supported yet, but should be soon. Also since I compile everything from source, I can simply compile 32 bit versions of programs where non-existent 64-bit drivers is an issue. EG. install a 32 bit browser to get the 32bit flash player to work. These tricks should also work on windows, since it also does 32 bit emulation.

The good news is I have a 64 bit os running in all its glory and speed with the ram it does have access. When Alienware eventually gets around to selling 64-bit vista, I will flash my bios with that version and I will see my forth gig of ram.

Respectfully Outofit
PS. I am learning a lot from your responses and I don't claim to know-it-all, I just tend to study something hard when it cost so much and I need it to do something very specific. So until I am back out on my homemade skateboard to have some fun!

 

Good luck. This has been debated here, of course, but I believe that as a gaming laptop, the M9650 should come by default with the x64 versions of Vista.

 

Thanks, and if feel if it did come with 64 bit vista it would have made us both happy!

 

Yeah, I have 4GB installed on my laptop but can only see 2.5GB total. Not that I'm sad have an extra 512MB of RAM, but... yeah.

 

That sucks. Blame Alienware! Start sending them feedback on how much you like using 1.5GB less.

 

yeah, sucks =(, especially shelling out money for 2 x 2gb and only benefiting from 2.5 really blows

 

Hey outofit, how is Fedora 7 64-bit running on the m9750 - any problems? Do you have a solid state drive or tv card in it?

I'm a bit concerned that linux could have problems with the SSDs or the video card, can anyone give feedback on that? And anyone successfully running Ubuntu 7.10 on it?

Fedora 8 is also here in 2 days!!!

 

um....

here is the fact.

Alienware M9750 notebook is using the old Napa platform.
- the memory is limited to 3-ish gigs (thats it), its due to the low-level limitation of the chipset.
- NO bios update will help this
- NO 64-bit OS will help this.

 

ahh, thanks for clearing that up..."damn u 945 chipset!"

 

Yeah, I knew about the limitations from the get go, but I was hoping I'd get more than 2.5GB. My old X205 had 3.2GB, which I was acceptable with.

 

The chipset doesn't support more than 3 something GB.

 

yup, both Gophn and Fade to Black are completely right here..mobile version of intel 945 chipset won't eat 4GB..there is one thing you might want to think about guys..Alienware lists on their website that m9750 supports up to 4GB RAM
http://www.alienware.com/product_detail_pages/area-51_m9750/area-51m_specs.aspx?SysCode=PC-LT-AREA51M9750&SubCode=SKU-DEFAULT#pdp-nav
"Processors, Chipset & MemoryIntel® Core™2 Duo Processors (4MB Cache, 667MHz FSB)
Intel 945PM + ICH7M-DH Chipset
Up to 4GB Dual Channel DDR2 at 667MHz
2 dedicated SO-DIMM slots for Dual Channel DDR2 Memory "

..in my opinion it looks like false advertisment, so if any of u guys wants 4GB RAM and SLI graphics, u might want to get your money back and move on to Clevo D900C..or Dell XPS 1730 (but be careful with this one..there seems to be a LOT of performance issues with SLI on Dell..just read Dell's forum )

anyway g.luck guys!

 

I agree completely. I will be calling AW tomorrow to "discuss my options", but I'm not anticipating that they will just offer to take the product back. I believe the only way that this is going to happen is if we all get together and petition, etc.

I'll let you know what the response is once I have a "final word" from someone @ AW.

 

The only way you will be able to use 4GB in this Alienware is if they'll update to Santa Rosa.

 

you are right, but that means new motherboard and CPU..possibly case upgrade as well
..and knowing AW they will NOT give that for free to all their dissatisfied customers :/
..one more reason to avoid AW and Dell..

 

man i'm glad i found out all this, cause i was getting ready to order a 9750, but with just 1gb from aw and then order 2 2gb so-dimms from newegg. but if the system won't use anything above 2.5gb, then that just outright blows.

this changes my thoughts on getting the 9750, cause i was gonna order it with the 8700 sli, plus all the options maxxed out, my wife said i could

but now i'm just gonna look somewhere else for my ultimate laptop.

 

Straight from the Intel Website:

Mobile Intel® 945PM Express Chipset - Dual-channel DDR2 667MHz Memory Support Up to 10.7GB/s of bandwith and up to 4GB memory addressability, for faster system responsiveness.

I am assuming they mean 4GB in total, so including video memory and other devices as well, otherwise this should work...

 

buy the m17x or m15x it has the new Santa Rosa

 

you know what that does seem pretty low of alienware. I called today before i read this post and one of the employees had the audacity to lie to me and say that its microsoft's problem and that no computer out there can utilize more than 3 gigs of ram at the same time... Then i hear today about how their chipset does not support four gigs of ram yet im pretty sure that the only reason i purchased 4 gigs was because that they implied they supported it. Im thinking about taking legal actions does anyone know anything or any information that would be of use to me?

 

@Everyone - I just made a phone call to my brother (who is a lawyer) about this issue as I would have liked to upgrade to 4GB because of Photoshop and had NO IDEA of the limitation at the time of purchase and it sucks that I can only use 2.5GB's no matter what. We are all aware of this issue and he is going to talk to a old law firm he worked at and see if this is a possible case.

Seriously, it SUCKS that I can only use 2.5GB's. I've had photoshop take up a full 1.2GB's (all my computer could give it without not having any memory) when I was designing a school poster.

Edit: I'm sure AW will pull something out of their ass though about the issue. I'm pretty sure they have a whole law office that makes sure they cannot be sued over a product so this could end up not working (which I hate to say but it will probably end up that way ).

"We don't support in hardware beyond what we sell in software. Alienware doesn't support a 64-bit OS as a packaged product so there is no reason to expect as a customer to be able to have a 64-bit os see all 4GB of ram."

So that means that they shouldn't even put a OS on the system at all because they "support" 4GB of memory even though you can only get 2.5GB or 3GB out of your system no matter what.

Edit 2: This just has been pissing me off because I'm increasingly working with photoshop and wishing that I had that 4GB's to work with.

 

I can feel you pain stone, I am also struggling with the 3GB limitation on my 5793, need to upgrade to x64 vista asap.

 

I actually just recorded a 9 minute conversation with a technical support agent saying that I could use 3.2GB WITH MY SPECIFICATIONS that he looked at. Uhh I'll post it later when I edit out everything and I'm going to take a look at the forum rules before I do. I'm still so pissed to find out that my computer can only use 2.5GB's of ram total or 3 if I take out a 7950GTX. Ugh no hi res PS images

@Nirvana - It is a hardware limitation, not a software one so it doesn't matter if I use a 32 or 64bit OS. Just checked the post rules and it falls within them.

 

Okay seriously who is just giving bad ratings to threads... its getting annoying.

 

lol i just gave it 5 stars.

 

Haha thanks I have no idea why people are doing that. Anyways I'm going to hold off uploading the convo. until I talk to my brother tomorrow.

Edit: For a class action suit there needs to be damages and then we would have to send paper work to EVERY owner of the M9750 saying that by not able to use all 4GB's damages their work in some way which could be very troublesome. I have a feeling that it could move to a 1 on 1 suit but I'll see tomorrow when I talk to him, this is just from what I read somewhere else.

 

my real concern was that knowing this going in, why does alienware offer to sell 4gb of RAM when they know good and well that their customers could not make use of it?

 

What about the Sanat rosa base systems like m15x or m17x (AW offers only the 32bits version). Do we have the same 3GB BIOS limitation ??

 

@Odessa - Your motherboard can support and use up to 4GB of memory which makes sense because that is all AW offers. "They don't offer hardware above their software" which makes sense in your case. So in other words you guys have a 4GB limitation but that makes sense as that is all they offer on their systems and they only sell a 32bit OS.

In our case they sell 4GB but if we have SLi then we can ONLY use 2.5. You guys could have SLi and still be able to use everything (- the limitation of the 32bit OS).

 

Thx for the clarification

 

Hello all!
<---first time poster, long time lurker. Apologies in advance for any n00bishness.
@Stone: I definitely feel your pain in regards to Photoshop. If I had a nickel for every time I've given a PC a seizure by trying to put a filter on a 40 foot image, with 72 layers, at 300 dpi, and only 2GB of RAM, I could... Well if I ACTUALLY HAD a nickel for every time that happened I could probably afford to fix the problem. Sounds like you're facing the same sad truth I am, in that to stay mobile you end up spending a small fortune and getting less performance for it.

The answer is, of course, to buy a large desktop workstation with a 64bit OS, meticulously tweaked drivers and software, and 8+ GB of RAM. But there goes portability, and price? Well that probably goes without saying. I used to sell PCs, and up until now I was still laboring under the misapprehension that very nearly all PCs with a 32 bit OSs topped out at 3-something GB. Especially 1-2 years ago. I told customers that four GB was a waste of $$ so often that I said it in my sleep sometimes. It's not like it's just AW and Dell. Toshibas, Acers, HPs, and even MACs all faced the same limitations, as 90% of the hardware came from the same sources or was based on the same design. If the m15x and m17x truly address 4GB, I am certainly glad to know it. We might even see mainstream adoption of 64bit OSs within the next decade that way. As to AW making huge changes to their current line though, I'd love to see it but doubt it'll ever happen. All these consumer-geared PC manufactures build for the largest demographic, and until mom and pop buying Vista 64bit for the kids becomes an everyday thing, the cost to AW to obtain that hardware and software is gonna be HIGH. Then they'd have to turn around and sell it to us with a markup to make a profit, and their prices are bad enough as is. The few of us that WOULD actually buy it, wouldn't justify the cost of keeping it in stock at the warehouse.

As to a lawsuit? best of luck, and if it goes anywhere I want in. ^^ Not much difference here then when I go to buy a 1TB hard disk and end up with less space because of the binary/ decimal difference though. My router lists it's speed in Mega BITS per second because the number looks bigger to the average buyer than the Mega BYTE value would. Advertising will never have the buyer's best interests at heart. Should AW be more up front about the specs and abilities of it's systems? Damn right they should, but no one else is doing much better.

Won't matter anyways though, in ten years probably none of these issues will even EXIST. I hate that I blew $4k on an m9700 a little over a year ago and the m15x stomps it flat in terms of power on about $1500 less. I try to tell myself "At least I didn't get screwed as bad as the guy that bought his six months before I did" though...

 

Yea that makes sense. However, I have a 10 minute recorded conversation where I asked a guy about how much RAM I could put in and he said I could put in 4GB and be able to use all of it minus the 32 bit OS limitation.

I recorded it so I have proof now. I'm seriously pissed. By they way I was working with 19,000 x 9,000 posters which was a alot of pixels 0_0.

 

excelent. what do you think we should do?

 

In .bmp? I think you need 8GB of ram.

 

@ stone Here's the thing stone. Even those of us not utilizing sli still have a hardware limitation on ram. The chipset sold with this laptop does not support all 4 gigs of ram. Please keep me posted on how your situation is developing. I am following a similar path however, i still dont know what i can do legally. I will keep you posted as well.

 

Years ago when windows went from 16 bit to 32 bit it took 10 Long years. I call it lazyness.

Now we are face with the fact it could take 10 More years to be 64 bit when the frist 64bit chip was out. So I would guess 2013 When 64 bit will be fully supported in a OS.

A date in Cnet about the amd 64 bit chips.

http://news.cnet.com/AMDs-Athlon-steps-up-to-64-bits/2100-1006_3-5080217.html

 

hey guys, so i finally got through with alienware and now they are offering me to send them back one of the ram sticks and they will refund it to compensate for them sending me a system that was advertised as being able to support 4 gigs but only supports 3.

Idk that sound reasonable but on the other hand i would rather wash my hands of the problem and simply get a refund for the whole system. Should i keep pushing them seeing how they falsely advertised their system?

Also if they refund one of the ram sticks that would leave me with only 2 gigs of ram and i would have to purchase one more. Then that would create a hassle because now i would have to order yet another gig of ram so im back up to three.

Any input?

 

I have been on them for about a month now with this issue, and they keep saying they are not ignoring the issue. That would be cool if we got a refund for the system, but highly unlikely.

 

here is a copy of the most recent email i sent them after they told me that all they can do is refund a stick of memory:


"Thank you for the reply,

I understand where you are coming from, but unfortunately simply refunding one memory stick would not be a favorable line of action. I feel like i have been misguided by your advertising and insulted by the way one of your phone operatives handled my call. Not only was I yelled at and lied to by a lady on the phone, but now you are also being misinformed by your engineering department.

I looked into the matter and got together with other owners of M9750s and we discovered (through many hours of research) that the motherboard shipped with this laptop has the old intell chipset that can only support up to 3 gigabytes of ram and not 4 as advertised. I'm not trying to be unreasonable or insult you but the information you were given was not exactly accurate.

Please read this carefully and address every issue presented in this email. I look forward to your reply. As i said before refunding the memory sticks would not be acceptable however, i would be much more pleased if i could be refunded the money for the laptop and compensated for the "hassle" this has caused me. If we can come to a favorable agreement it may restore my faith in this company. However as it stand I'm not very impressed by what has transpired."


p.s. i think ill sell this system if they wont refund me, how much do you think ill get for it? i spent 2500 on it when i built it.

 

I'll post my conversation with a tech support agent up later tonight which really shows them lying to me. However, before I post it, I have to cut a few things out like my account number and everything as well as the TS guys name.

In addition, that conversation could not be used in court for some reason (I'm not a lawyer, my brother just told me that) so I'll just post it up through megaupload tonight after I edit it.

 

Stone i'm with you dude! i didnt buy my system to use 2gb! i bought it for the 4gb! ill be contacting them aswell! POWRE FOR THE ALIENS!

 

Guys, I don't think that even Alienware can pull a fix out of their asses. This limitation was already acknowledged due to the limitation of the napa platform (which people don't talk about as much since its about a year old now and now we are transistioning from Santa Rosa. Heres an example of what Im talking about, in the case of another notebook with that limitation: http://forum.notebookreview.com/showthread.php?t=231906

 

what about issuing that new m9750 Arima case (with the new platform) for the m9750's. the new platform should surely be able to work with 4 gigs.

 

@Bhattsan - Okay that's fine but at the time I had no idea about these limitations, I can search through the whole M9750 spec sheet and it doesn't say (can only use 2.5GB of ram when using SLi). Anyways the guy from TS said I could use 4GB with it which I'm still working on editing out the personal info out of.

Okay edited the info and uploading it now to mega upload, I'll make a new thread when it's done.

 

what Stone825 said is true, Hardware limitation or No Hardware limitation, we were told we will be able to see all 4gb of ram, Maybe a Bios update will fix it, if it doesnt, i demand a mobo refresh ^^

 

brainer, unfourtunatly we need much more than a bios update. we need new hardware as far as im aware of.

 

Systox i personally dont care about 4 gigs or no 4 gigs. it wont move a frame in gaming performance ( it will do a difference in other apps, but i'm using my laptop as a console.) but, if there was a way around it, then id be happy to see a fix.