Cost and Sager comparison for AW 15 or 17?

I have spent a long time looking at Sager models, mostly because of price. But since the build I am looking at will be around $2000, I began to wonder if Alienware can compete. I really don't know much about Alienware, nor have I followed pricing. So, here is what I am looking at on the Sager side:

17.3" display
i7-4700mq
780m (Single card, with maybe an option to sli, not sure about sli since I may never add a second card)
1TB 7200rpm hdd
16gb ram
blu-ray driver, maybe burner
Windows 8

These units can support two 9mm SATA, two mSATA, and you can put a drive in the optical bay. (If a 15" can do that, then that is ok)
Standard warranty is one year, send it back.
Noise seems to get as high as 53dba (This concerns me)
Easy to upgrade or work on.
Weight is about 8-9 pounds (heavy)
Size: 16.3x11.26x1.81 (bulky)

Specifically I am looking at the NP8275-S (no sli support) or NP9380 3D (sli and 3D/120hz display support, but would start with single card)

So, how much would a similar build from Alienware cost me approximately? What are some pros and cons between these? And review comparisons? Which model(s) should I look at?

I appreciate any advice or assistance on this decision as I hope to buy a laptop around black friday.

 

Alienware does not offer a 15" model. The choices are 14, 17 and 18. The 14 GPU is soldered to the motherboard. Only the 17 and 18 use MXM modules. The 17 is single GPU, 18 is SLI.

It depends on what kind of a deal you can negotiate by phone or chat. Prices are not as static with Alienware as they are with Clevo resellers. They are generally priced closely and if you ignore Alienware web site prices you can frequently negotiate an Alienware for less money than a Clevo. Where the Alienware systems have historically shined is build quality and superior warranty service and support, and they still do.

Its too bad that almost all current laptops, regardless of brand, have Haswell processors. It really takes the fun out of shopping for something awesome. If you have been a fan of Sandy and Ivy XM, X and K processors, the best Haswell processors available will be a disappointment. Clevo was brilliant to NOT offer their flagship beast (P570WM) with a Haswell CPU. It truly stands alone now as the only laptop sold in anywhere the world with a genuinely awesome CPU.

But, if you're not a fan of extreme performance in an extreme package, you'll have to settle for a Haswell.

 

Thanks Mr. Fox. I did not know about the 14, 17, & 18 gpu model differences. Ok, so that leave 17 or 18.

I don't think I will mind a Haswell, as my last desktop had a AMD dual core, I think it was the 4600+, and the gpu was a 8800gt, or gtx.

The P570WM is a beast, doesn't it need dual 330watt power supplies. I like the idea of keeping power usage, and my electric bill down.

Which brings me to another concern, I heard AW is quieter than Sager.

So on the 17 & 18 how many drives can they hold?

So I shoild be able to get the above build in a 17 inch AW for under two grand US? Is the 18 sli version offered in a single gpu version, that could be made sli later? Does it have optimus?

Thanks again. This is a big decision, and as you can tell I rarely buy new computers.

 

Yes, with the desktop CPU that Clevo machine does need dual AC adapters to function properly under heavy load. But, I use dual AC adapters with the M18xR2 when I do extreme overclocking because a single 330W cannot provide adequate power under those conditions even with the 3920XM/3940XM CPU. That will not have an appreciable effect on your electric bill or power usage. Haswell is actually a serious power hog when you start pushing it hard. It's only efficient at low clock speeds. But, it will be a huge improvement over your old AMD dual core... like night and day difference.

What you have heard about the Alienware being quieter is probably very true, but it is a two-edged sword. Part of the quietness can likely be attributed to the chassis. The new Alienware 17 and 18 are both built like a Sherman tank. Regardless of whether you like the new look, these new machines are insanely well built like nothing I have ever seen in a laptop before. Alienware went over the top with build quality... truly amazing. However, part of the quietness has resulted from fans that do not run as fast or as early as what they are capable of. This is OK under normal circumstances, but contributes to higher than good temperatures if you do a lot of benching or overclocking. Add to that the fact that Haswell runs insanely hot by design... almost to the point of uncontrollably hot by nature, and that is not a good combination. In this case, more noise would be better if it translates into better cooling under extremely demanding conditions.

The M18xR1/R2/18 have a distinct advantage over other laptops in that they have manual graphics switching. There is no Optimus at all. You switch between exclusive integrated graphics or exclusive discrete graphics without any drama that can sometimes occur with Optimus and Enduro hybrid graphics switching. This is a superior design that gives the end user absolute control over system behavior and actually allows longer battery run times compared to what hybrid systems can achieve.

The 17 (and 14) have Optimus, but it can be disabled using the keyboard hotkeys. The display signal is not routed through the binary CPU graphics. That is also a really nice Alienware design feature that has been used for several generations in their single GPU laptops.

Alienware does not offer the 18 with single GPU. So, buying with one GPU and adding another one later is not an option. The 17 and 18 can hold 4 drives if you opt to move the ODD to an external enclosure, or 3 internal drives with an ODD. You can have 3 drives plus mSATA. This is one less drive than what was possible with the M18xR2.

 

Thank you very much for the information. I started reading reviews so I can get up to speed faster.

Interesting what you say about the fans and noise. I know the Sagers get up to 85C (cpu & gpu) for gaming, and hit 92C gpu, 95C cpu when benchmarking. But they sound somewhat like a hair dryer, or so I am told. If the AW are much better in this area that would be a plus. But it sounds like they might be close...

The manual graphics switching sounds nice. I wonder why other manufacturers don't do it. So on the 17, you can have Optimus switch for you, or have manual control over integrated or discrete?

Since the 18" would be dual gpu only, I think that would put it well over two grand, since I would want dual 780m's. So I think that leaves the 17", which is fine since I am not sure I would ever add a second 780m even if I could.

I know this will be an increase over my 2006 desktop. The cpu will be much faster and even the mobile gpu will be faster than my desktop gpu. I have followed all the improvements in Ivy Bridge, and Sandy Bridge, as well as the other changes.

 

You're welcome.

Yes, you can control discrete versus switchable graphics nicely. On the new systems it is FN+F5.

On the previous generation Alienware M17xR3/R4 systems you could flash an unlocked BIOS and totally disable Optimus or Enduro permanently.

With only $2,000 to work with, buying a brand new Alienware or Clevo with SLI is going to be outside of your budget. You might do better grabbing a refurbished system from Dell Outlet. You could avoid Haswell and your money might go a little bit further on specs. But, if you call 1-800-ALIENWARE and work with someone in sales, it is sometimes possible to buy a brand new system for less than an Outlet model.

http://forum.notebookreview.com/alienware/456885-aw-dell-ordering-advice-how-save.html

Dell Factory Outlet Inventory Search | Dell US

Bear in mind also, GTX 680M is more powerful than any current graphics cards except for GTX 780M. So, getting an M17xR4 with 680M will be a more powerful machine than any new one with any GPU except for GTX 780M. GTX 680M is more powerful than 770M, which is the next step down from 780M in current generation GPUs. The 680M also overclocks extremely well. Also be aware that the older M17xR3/R4 are made of plastic like a Clevo. The new Alienware 17 has a metal chassis and lid like the new 18. However, the older M18xR1/R2 have a full aluminum body and lid.

Below are examples from the Dell Outlet store. You have to be careful with the descriptions in Dell Outlet. Sometimes they are not accurate. The M18xR2 may be 680M SLI with a 330W AC adapter, or it might be a single 680M with 240W AC adapter. You cannot rely on the person the entered data to have entered the information correctly. Always best to call to confirm what it and order by phone instead of doing the purchase online. That way you can negotiate as well.

 

Thanks for the links. The Dell outlet ones give me an idea how far my dollar will go. Looks like I sacrifice the 780m to get in the two thousand range. I will have try calling and see what happens.

I think I see what you mean about AW fans and temps. From the 17 anandtech review

" Trying to determine what was going on, I ran GPU-Z in the background and re-ran the Tomb Raider benchmark since that seems to be the biggest problem child in the group. When testing the MSI GT70 Dragon I was used to seeing sustained boost speeds above 900MHz on the 780M. What I found was alarming: with the default BIOS, the Alienware 17 was needlessly throttling the 780M during Tomb Raider's benchmark and probably others. Despite the GPU never running hotter than 67C, the Alienware 17 was knocking the GPU speed down to just over 600MHz. So of course the system was quiet, it wasn't even allowing the GPU to really be stressed.

Updating to the A04 BIOS substantially alleviated the Alienware 17's performance woes. Boost clocks hovered around 850MHz instead, which is still lower than what I saw on other vendors' systems but at least manageable. There was theoretically thermal headroom on the table; the system's fan profile is designed to keep the 780M at about 75C, which is incidentally the cut off point for the boost clocks. Go over that temperature like Metro: Last Light did, though, and the GPU starts to throttle down to 666MHz. Owners of the Alienware M17x R3 will immediately recognize this type of behavior; Dell and Alienware are extremely aggressive with their thermal thresholds and they're willing to sacrifice a little performance to get them. I feel like a more reasonable target would've been 80C instead of 75C."

So they seem to throttle at 75C, which does seem too aggressive. Has that changed from Dell? What about the Prema/svl7 bios?

 

Yeah, I wish that were not true, but it is. They are too aggressive with trying to maintain low temps at the expense of performance. Somebody that is not an overclocking/gaming enthusiasts probably decided that was the best approach because average consumers are unnecessarily OCD about CPU and GPU temps, and some make a big stink with they feel a warm area on their laptop. I have seen some start to get spastic about 70°C-75°C if you can believe that, LOL. But, Alienware customers are not average customers... although some are still OCD about temps.

The great news is, you can fix that GPU throttling problem mentioned in the review with a vBIOS mod from svl7. There really are not any GPUs with a stock vBIOS that perform as well as they should in any brand of laptop. They are all needlessly crippled to at least some degree... some more than others. All of them need a vBIOS mod to be awesome.

 

My last non Alienware computer was a Clevo and I can vouch for what Mr Fox says. The build quality is vastly superior in the Alienware and the warranty service is second to none. Unlike some people I am not an Alienware fan boy and I will buy the best, most powerful laptop on the market that suits me, no matter what brand. It is just I haven't found anything better in the 17" market.

Best of luck with your search and be assured that if you do decide to buy an Alienware you will not be disappointed.

 

Thanks FrozenSolid. You seem objective about this. Do you have the 780m version? Have you increased the gpu throttle to higher than 75C, like maybe 85C? I wonder how the noise level at this temp will compare to the Sager, which tends to run at 85C.

Also, how is the headphone jack? The Sagers seem to have some static. In the mean time I will read some more reviews.

Thanks Mr. Fox. Yes, I am aware of the svl7 vbios, as I also post on that forum... Good to know it is working on the AW as well. Not sure if you know how the noise is on the AW 17 when the gpu is running at 85C, and how it compares to the Sager?

Thanks again.

 

Clevo used to shine when it came to aftermarket upgrades and long-term upgradability.
Right now Clevo has lost some of that advantage.

Right now if you ask me Clevo vs Alienware:

Clevo:
- a bit cheaper
- lighter (easier to carry around)
- doesn't stand out with its looks (if you don't want ppl. to know you have an expensive gaming laptop, this is a plus, otherwise it's a minus)

- note that the speakers are not very good

Alienware:
- better built quality
- better technical support
- flashier looks

So it's up to you.

Personally, I prefer a lighter laptop and I prefer people not to know I have an expensive laptop.

It terms of built quality, Alienware is better, but for instance my Clevo laptop is 5 years old and still working very well. I think any of these two brands will become out-dated long before they start falling apart.

Also, if you want a Sager, buy it from a reseller, like https://www.mythlogic.com/ or Custom Laptops, Gaming Notebooks, Custom Gaming Laptops | XOTIC PC

 

Thanks Blacky. With your help, and FrozenSolid, and of course Mr. Fox, and several reviews I have put together a pros and cons list from my perspective.

Alienware 17
Pros
Build, AW uses a Magnesium and Alum case
Speakers, Sagers are OK, but AW are reviewed better
Looks, I like the looks on the AW better with the lights, but I think most would get old after a while.
Macro Keys, Those are cool, Sager doesn't have. I believe software could fulfill this role though.
HDMI in. This is a neat feature missing on the Sager.
Warranty, on-site service. Sager is ship in. Service level seems a little better with AW.
Fan Noise, based on notebookcheck 43.5-51.8 under load, versus Sager 47.4-55.0 dba. See note 1
Headphone jack seems to have less or no noise. (not sure)

Cons
Price. This is a biggie. $2299 AW versus Sager $1824 See note 2
Performance, based on reviews the AW is a bit behind the Sager with the same cou and gpu. See note 1
Display was not quite as good as Sager
Battery Life, 2:36 wifi browsing, versus Sagers 3:14 wifi browsing (notebookcheck reviews)
No eSATA, I was hoping this would be an easy, fast way to connect my desktoo HDDs, I know I can get a usb 3 enclosure...
Lighted Touchpad too bright, while nice, it doesn't have brightness levels. Can it be turned off? If so then this is equal to Sager.


Sager/Clevo NP8275/P170SM
Pros
Performance, See note 1
Price, $1824 Sager, $2299 AW, Same specs. See note 2
4 drives plus optical for Sager (2x9.5mm SATA, 2xmSATA), AW has 3 plus optical. (2x9.5mm SATA, not sure on other one, is it mSATA orSATA?)
Display is a little better than AW, based on notebookcheck reviews
7.1 Surround sound possible, versus AW 5.1 Surround sound possible
eSATA/USB port. Should make it quick and easy to hook up desktop drives.
Battery life, Sager 3:14 versus AW 2:36, Notebookcheck reviews.
Weight. Seems the Sager might be a pound lighter, but specs were conflicting...
Three video out ports, versus two.

Cons
Fan Noise, Sager 47.4-55.0 dba versus AW 43.5-51.8 dba, both under load, from notebookcheck reviews
Heasphone noise. I know there is some static when the volume is turned all the way up, or so it is reported. AW seem like they are better.
Speakers are OK, but AW are good but no low end. So AW is better.
Case is plastic.

Let me know if I missed something significant, or made a mistake. Most of these are not major differences. I know some of my cons might be pros to others.

Note 1, Performance and fan noise. Obviously performance is closly related to fan noise. So one has more performance and more fan noise, the other has less performance but us quieter. As we would expect. The problem I saw in the reviews was the two units had different limits set on max temp or max clocks. Thus you are comparing apples to oranges. I suspect the AW might have better cooling, but they could be close. I don't know. I would like to see noise and performance when they are set equally. Also, looking in the AW 17 owners thread, I saw a few reports of the units shutting down when the cpu hit about 100 C. I haven't seen this issue in the Sager threads. But once again it may be just a settings issue. Not sure.

Note 2, Price. I priced a AW 17 on the normal site, so no deals, not refurbished, no coupons, etc. I then priced a Sager with the same specs, I used lpcdigital.com.
Specs used were: i7-4700mq, 16GB ram, 780M, 750GB 7200, DVD burner, Windows 8 (7 was same price). The difference is $475, which is a big difference. I don't know how much the AW price can come down.

As I said, let me know if I missed anything significant or if I made a mistake.

 

Performance wise they should be the same.
I am 90% sure the Alienware is heavier by half a pound at least. Usually they are 0.6 lbs heavier.

 

The extra weight would be a direct reflection of build quality. Being 0.6 lbs heavier is inconsequential. You have a lot of metal in the Alienware chassis. The moment you pick one up it like, "Wow, this is incredible." The down side is, once you've experienced what it's like to have a machine built one a metal chassis is it very difficult to embrace the idea of buying another system made from plastic. There is simply no comparison in that respect.

 

Yes, performance wise they are close enough, that I think running with the same limits I think they would be the same. The AW does have the Magnesium and Aluminum case. That should make it very strong and flex resistant.

I guess the fan noise under simular conditions is also about the same too. I am going to try calling Dell to see what type of deal I can get. Do they have store fronts, as I am in southern california? I will look to see, if so I will try to drop by and see it in person and see what type of deal I can get.

 

Sometimes they have Alienware machines on display at Fry's Electronics and Best Buy. Those sold in-store are often not the killer specs, unfortunately. You could still handle one and get a feel for build quality and aesthetics before calling 1-800-ALIENWARE to negotiate a better price.

Looks like there are some in your area: Best Buy Alienware 17 Store Inventory

 

My local Best Buy gets in Alienwares every once in awhile. They're spec'd out very poorly but at least it'll give you a feel for the chassis, keyboard, trackpad, lighting, etc...

My 14 is built like an absolute tank. There isn't a hint of flex anywhere in the chassis. I pick mine up one handed by the corner of the chassis all of the time and it's sturdy as could be for weighing in the neighborhood of 6lbs. I've owned and used a MacBook Pro, and the Alienware's build quality is much higher IMO.

I would recommend the Alienware over the Clevo if you can get the Alienware for the same price, there's really no comparison. A vbios mod is necessary as Mr. Fox said. Stock I was limited to +135, after vbios mod I can take mine all the way up to +250 stable (memory at +300). The stock OC limits are very conservative, once you do the vbios mod you can really push things for that extra edge. I gained nearly 20% OCing mine, and temps only went up 5C compared to stock. Although my 14 isn't a 17, I would expect that the 17 would have similar gains. The stock vbios is very conservative, and really holds the GPU back.

I play a lot of World of Tanks, and Alienware sponsors the WGLNA e-sports events, so they get an extra point in my book for that.

 

I dropped into Microcenter today. They only had a 14" on display. The 17 they sell doesn't go up to a 780M. The 14" looked nice, a good looking machine. I didn't have a chance to call today.

Funny you mention world of tanks. My friends play every Friday night and have asked me to join. So that game will be on my play list.

 

WoT is a fun game. Find the Alienware invite code promo and use it when setting up your account and you'll get some free gold and some other random things to get you started.

I would advise taking the game slow, and learning the mechanics of it. The learning curve is pretty steep, but reading the wiki and all of Lert's guides on the WoT forums will give you a huge edge over everybody around you. The mechanics of the game are decently complex, and learning how to abuse them to your advantage is the biggest thing you can do to give yourself an edge on the competition.

My 14 runs the game at 1080P/medium at 45-60FPS, and my desktop runs it at 1080P/ultra at 50-100FPS. The game is pretty poorly optimized.

 

I talked to Dell/Alienware today at the number provided above. I spoke with Andrew. I told him I was looking at the Alienware 17. He asked me if I priced it online, and what the price was. I told him yes, and it was $2299. He put me on hold for a minute or two, then came back. He said it was $2299, I told him I could get the same specs for $1824 through Clevo/Sager. He then said the best he could do was $2199, or one hundred off. I tried to get him to budge, but he wouldn't. He kept saying that was a better deal than online, and I wouldn't get that deal otherwise. Then his sales pitch was that once I ordered it would be built new for me, it would all be brand new parts. That was it. So that makes the Sager $375 less...

I then thought I would try calling back. The second started helping me and asked about the specs, which I thought it was weird that the first one didn't. He asked about the price I saw, etc. Then he got to a point where he said he needed to access my profile. I told him if I didn't buy I didn't want to create a profile. He said he couldn't give me a better price without creating a profile. I said I wouldn't create a profile, so we reached an impass.

So I think I give up on Alienware, because of price. $375 is significant.

 

Well, so much for that, LOL. Since you did not have a profile with a shopping cart/wish list loaded with what you want to buy he couldn't assist you effectively. It wouldn't surprise me to see them beat the Clevo (Sager) price with more effective negotiation, but even if they did not for the exact same core hardware specs $375 for the superior quality machine (this like superior build quality and better warranty/support are serious added value factors) it would still be worth the extra $375.

 

So is there a way to negotiate without a profile? I don't want to lie and create a fake profile. The first guy was able to help without a profile, but he seemed "new", so maybe he didn't know what it takes to get the best deal. Also neither seemed loyal to Dell, as they didn't care that it would cost them a sale. But I suspose people threaten that all the time.

 

Creating a profile and adding something to your shopping cart or wish list is not fake or lying. It sometimes takes four or five calls to get a great deal. I personally know of people that have negotiated as much as 25% off by not giving up. Discounts of that size are rare deals, but you should be able to negotiate 10-15% and probably free next business day shipping and/or extra warranty if you are persistent. Regardless of whether you land on a Clevo or Alienware, be sure you get the most extended warranty you can afford. High performance laptops don't last forever. Motherboards, GPUs and LCD panels can die and they are generally more expensive to purchase than the cost of an extended warranty. Buying an extended warranty of 2 to 4 years at the time of purchase can be half the cost of extending just one year later on. And, I don't know if Clevo resellers will even allow you to end the warranty on a used machine. Dell/Alienware is very generous in this regard and with many brands it is not possible to do that. You should be able to get a good 3 years or more out of your system and you want it to be covered under warranty.

The great thing about Dell/Alienware is if you have a machine that dies that is 2 or 3 years old and parts are not available, they replace it with a newer machine of equal or better specs. Tons of Alienware owners have had their old machines replaced with same or better current generation machines under warranty. The warranty and technical support is a very compelling reason to buy an Alienware even if all other factors are more or less equal. There are scary stories of unfortunate tech support with every brand, but by and large Alienware does a superior job of taking care of customers. And, when repairs are necessary, they are most frequently done in you home rather than shipping your laptop off to some other location and waiting in hopes of getting it back in proper working order. If you are capable of doing the repairs, in many cases they will verify the diagnosis and ship you the parts to install yourself if that is your preference.

 

I am pretty sure with Clevo/Sager you have to buy the warranty within thirty days of purchase. As for AW, I have read some great stories on how they have taken care of their customers, and those were what I just saw on this forum. I have been impressed by AW service for hardware issues.

 

Here is an example posted in the last 24 hours... unbeatable service and support. Not perfect by any means, but simply the best.

 

I think we can considure this thread closed as far as I am concerned. I just ordered a Sager. Thanks for every ones help, as you helped me make an informed decision, and not an easy one.