Dual 4870s on a M17x prevents RAIDed Drives?

Just mucking around on the Dell US site, and when I put the xfire option, i lose the raid ability, does any one else see this?

it may be just another error in the dell configurator (wouldn't be the first time )

also when i put the nvidia options, i can have the raid.

 

RAID will be a BIOS option, if its anything like most machines, it'll just be the configurator being . The only reason the 4870 would work with dell RAID BIOS ROM is if the 4870 required a boot option ROM and the Dell could only use one (the 4870).

Shouldnt cause an issue in otherwords, you may just have to DIY!

 

Actually, it won't allow you to build your system with RAID, you'll have to reconfigure to a single drive before adding the system to the cart, no matter what you do. It should be checked with Dell reps though...
So yes, as of now there are no RAID options with the dual ATI cards.

 

I ordered mine today, dual 500 gig drives in Raid 0 with XFire. No issues over the phone with the Dell rep. This was at 9am PST though. At that time, I was able to configure the system without any issues on the configurator. Now I am getting the error message. Wonder if they will be sending me an email that it can't be raid, or if the configurator is jacked...

 

I just got a call from my rep that I had to change my order from raid 0 to a single drive config with the ati's...I would call them and change it as this is only going to delay your system. Free advice!

 

the 9400m seems to be throwing up more issues then they planned which is what delayed the release

keeep in mind guys how much Nvidia hates ATI and the fact they are looseing the mobile sector isn't helping. These cards are running on a nvidia chipset and there will be issues

kudo to dell for getting this to work

 

i wonder if you disable the 9400m graphics if the raid 0 will work?

 

Not sur the chopset is still nvidia .....

 

The only reason why they figured it out so late is because it's a new build setup with the ATI's and they probably ran into problems when they were building it and just finding it out by accident. This is a fact, because when the ATi's option were added, I did a configuration with RAID 0 , and saved it to my cart without any problem. And since finding this thread about the RAID issue, i went back to my saved cart ..and i got that error message, which i didn't get before.

 

That's odd, must be an nVidia thing since they don't use ICH to handle raid. But something is telling me that nVidia REALLY doesn't like ATi now. First it's the disabling of PhysX (not that it really matters much) when an ATi card is detected in the system, and then there is the recent fiasco of TWIMTBP titles handicapping ATi cards (see Batman:AA issue with in-game Anti-Aliasing), and now this.

Also, I don't remember having an issue with RAID when I installed the 3870 cards in my M9750, but that was because it was using a hybrid chipset (nForce 200 with Intel ICH7).

 

Just spoke to the sales team ... Physical Dimension factoring of the new ATI 4870s in Crossfire setup will not allow users to have RAID 0 configuration.

They are toooo huge and occupy additional space inside of the chassis where RAID 0 controller needs to be placed.

WOW ... what a freaking letdown !!!!
Now I have to re-configure my system .... great ((

 

That is a 100% BS answer from the rep....I would guess it is an issue of the BIOS had to be considerably changed to allow for CF and in doing so must have wiped out RAID

 

wow ... I dont even know what to tell you ... Im currently on hold with another rep and she's checking it all over with her manager. But the thing that I can't get is that if it would be a BIOS related issue, why then the same issue allowed 280M SLI option go into the system !???

 

It's a nvidia chipset with at cards something had to be Modded to make this work . By all accounts your lucky this works at all ....

besides it's software raid so raid 0 is useless

 

I feel for ya Digital

 

I could not tell you, but maybe when the different feature of the BIOS is being used to enable CF, at the same time it kills the RAID ability.

The reason I called BS on that, is that the 4870s will be the same size as the GTX 280m's. The board size and layout is predetermined by the MXM specifications.That and there is no way they have an entirely different chassis (which they would if what that rep told you was true) just to allow the ATI cards to "fit"

The BIOS stuff I refer to I remember reading about in the HP Blackbird 002 which had a 680i chipset but had CF enabled. Here is the page: http://www.anandtech.com/systems/showdoc.aspx?i=3094&p=3

I couldn't say if there was a RAID issue there or not though

 

To be honest I'd say its something to do with what AW have done with the BIOS. Reason I say that is that theoretically the M17x chipset and mobo supports RAID and the MXM3.0 format [SLI Capable].
Therefore; theoretically, you should be able to plug in ANY MXM3 card, and still run RAID, and the only reason this should differ is if A) Its some sort of driver/software issue or B)The 4870s are not completely MXM3 compliant or C) They had to hack Crossfire support and basically ran out of space for RAID boot ROM.
Regardless of the VBIOS in use, that shouldnt really affect the raid capability, however hacking Crossfire support over SLI may have caused some changes to the BIOS ROM.

Something still strikes me as fishy; to be completely honest, going by standards, and also desktops, the manufacturer of the motherboard and chipset shouldnt make a damn difference to what cards you can put in (at least in single card usage), because of this, I'd wager it's either something Alienware have done accidentally, tampering with the BIOS; that ACTUALLY, it does work in RAID, it's just not supported as yet as they're having some minor issues; its a BIOS bug, which was only noticed once alternate cards to the expected (and long tested) setup was used; in which case a BIOS update in the near future may re-enable the RAID functionality or finally, it some sort of BIOS hack Alienware have used to enable crossfire support on the chipset (like you could hack some Crossfire mobos to support SLI) which has broken RAID functionality, something like due to the limited size of mobile motherboard BIOS ROM, that they effectively had to delete the RAID programming to have the space to store the crossfire hack [in which case they could possibly remove SLI support in the future if it would enable enough available capacity to reenable RAID functionality]. We may find 4870 based machines run a different BIOS to those sent out with GTX280s, which is another of the reasons builds have been delayed.

 

I am 100% sure it is due to the BIOS being tampered with - but that is only my speculation and not at all factually supported as of yet

 

That explanation makes a little more sense than the others I seen floating about....

 

They wont take up more space though, all the information stands that these MXM3.0 boards, the spec of which has a standard size, and the chassis will be designed around this spec. The raid chip onboard is likely built into the actual motherboard chipset, and even if a seperate die onboard was used to add the controller,it would certainly not be large enough it would massively effect a large heatsink.

It sounds like that customer adviser was thinking of the desktop boards and trying to come up with a quick excuse. MXM is a standard spec, if they keep changing the size of the boards it'd be useless, as they wouldnt be able to build chassis around it without providing massive amounts of redundant space.

 

Possibly. But not all boards will be the exact same shape or formfactor. After all, I've heard its for this reason that the M15x cannot have the 280m. So it is possible the 4870 is shaped in a manner that prevents the installation of RAID.

Makes more sense to me anyway....

 

Is this the first of many issues yet to surface for Nvidia chipset with ATI video cards?

 

Hopefully not, usually at least for single card setups it doesnt make a damn difference.

 

Actually, the reason that the M15x can't have the 280M is because it's specified for a 65W graphics card (the 260M) and the 280M is 75W.

It could well turn out the 280M works perfectly in the M15x like it did in the old area-51 m15x.

 

I was thinking that single or sli was irrelevant that the compatibility issue would be the NV Raid controller drivers that comes with Nvidia chipset. I had to uninstall Nvidia's SATA controller in device manager to get my ssd to work at it's rated speeds. The Nvidia RAID controller is the recommended driver for Nvidia chipset RAID setups--don't know if there is a Microsoft version.

 

Could well be a driver issue as I mentioned in my previous more extensive post. If thats the case then this may be fixable in the future.

 

dude, its not a driver ! I just spent an hour of my life with Dell's technical team and they all state the same BS - GPU's size is the reason why M17X can not be configured with RAID 0 option when ATI 4870s in CF are selected !!! They occupy additional space by it's own size (this has nothing to do with MXM 3.0 port !!!) and therefore RAID controller can not be placed.

Then again, we shall freaking see what's inside once I'll get it .... Anyway , I had to re-configure my system (single hard drive instead of RAID 0)and now have my ETA around 10.25.09

 

I agree and call bs on the size issue...I have had mine apart like 3 times as I upgraded the processor and the cd drive. If the card is even 2 millimeters higher it would lift the keyboard. And there is no room from side to side with the nvidias. So, unless we are getting a completely different chassis they are bs'ing us. I went through the same thing with them and had to change the order...same eta approx...

 

If that is true (the size is causing the issue) then why when I select a single 4870 it still isn't working?

See pic....

 

Is the RAID controller is near the second GPU Maybe?

 

SleeyO, I have to say that you got me on this one !! I honestly have no freaking clue, but still would think that It might have something to do with the RAID controller.

The only thing I've learned so far is that even their own technical support team has no knowledge of WTH is going on ... !!

 

I was so happy when the m17x ended up geting ati's so i of course configured one. When i notcied that the atis werent supporting raid i was kinda put off, i went with nvidea 280s instead. They are what i have wanted for some time any way. Ati is rock solid though so i wanted to know why no raid, so i browsed all over and found this thread. Figured there be some type of discussion on it. The first thought that came into my mind was that the atis are taking up to much space not allowing raid.

 

Yes and Im sorry but they are chatting BULL**** to you, its been proven time and time again that many members of the tech support are not overtly technical, we've all heard some of the fud they've come up with.

The MXM spec covers the size of the card, the actual physical dimensions of the card, the only reason different heatsinks are used is to cover different laptop models and some require more heat dissapation than others, the cards cannot be a different size and still comply with the MXM spec.

There is also the fact that the chassis is designed around the MXM specification size; there is no room for larger cards, without re-designing the chassis, which they are not going to do.

Furthermore; all the information I have seen so far is that the raid chip is intergrated into the motherboard; rather than an addon board, and therefore again, the comment on size is bull as quite frankly they're not going to supply a whole new chassis and motherboard just to install ATI 4870s; they may as well launch a new M17 with MXM3 to do so.

I am willing to be proved wrong, but unfortunately, they appear to be lying, possibly from misinformation/rumour themselves.

 

I agree with the people who are saying it is not a driver issue. Every RAID controller I know of does not give a hoot what GPU(s) is being used - in fact HDD/RAID drivers are not the same as GPU drivers - they are two separate entities.

If, as others are saying, the RAID controller is totally integrated already into the motherboard, and not an added module, then the only rational explantion is deliberate sabotage on the part of nVidia designed to prevent ATI users from using RAID on the M17x.

Recapping what others said; every MXM 3.0 card has the exact, precise 100% same size, shape, volume, etc.; the RAID controller is fully integrated into the motherboard - no added modules; drivers for RAID and GPU are two separate programs.

Conclusion: ATI lovers, nVidia is deliberately, knowingly, and willingly preventing you from using your preferred GPU and RAID at the same time, and Dell is playing along with nVidia.

 

There is no raid controller.....it is a software emulation.....

I still maintain that it is a BIOS (NOT DRIVER) issue. Please understand the considerable difference here guys

 

I know the difference, and that BIOS has a far more reaching affect on a system than drivers.

If that is the case and there is no controller, you just convinced me even more nVidia is playing nasty.

Does nVidia own PhoenixBIOS or Mediashield too?!?

 

Thing is it may not (for once lol) be Nvidia, as frankly there is not a hope in hell Nvidia would help implement crossfire support, it is more likely that AW or the board OEM, if not Nvidia fabbed boards, hacked it into the BIOS themselves, indoing so either deliberately or accidentally affecting the RAID support. In that sense its a real shame the machine wasnt designed round an intel chipset with SLI chip, as Intel seems to have fairly wide ranging crossfire support, plus the relevant stable raid controller options.

@Scook I understand the difference, dont worry, however this RAID issue could be the BIOS, software or both (in that the changes to BIOS may have affected an ID string so the NVRAID software doesnt install etc), we may not know til we have them! It may also be correctable in a future BIOS or via user tweaking because you would have thought AW/Dell noticed this issue before preproduction tbh unless perhaps it worked on another bios lol

 

Just to clarify, Intel and AMD also implement raid in their chipsets through software, not an actual hardware controller, not just Nvidia. Good raid controllers get VERY expensive, you can not pretend to have the same abilities in a mainstream chipset.

 

Intel does not have a vested financial interest in a particular GPU chipset lol

 

I never said they did, just that thier motherboards tend to support crossfire, which has been true for the last few years.

 

Aha, but nVidia does. They may see it as not in their best interest to enable RAID support for their chipsets being used with competitors' GPUs. After all, if you could do that, you would buy laptops with ATI cards and not theirs.

Crude, but basic human nature.

 

It could be that even if Nvidia wanted to spend resources developing RAID drivers that would work with ATI GPU's they couldn't without support from Microsoft Windows. I can see where there is no clear impetus on any of the players to develop workable drivers that overcome the compatibility problems. Why does Nvidia care to spend resources developing chipset drivers that work with ATI cards? It is equally easy for ATI to say that it's Nvidia's problem--why should they develop drivers for Nvidia's chipset? Microsoft really does not have any reason to develop working RAID drivers since it has non RAID drivers with their OS that can be used to install an operating system on any computer.

 

I got a solution , how about we all wait patiently and see what's inside when whoever gets his system first (with ATI 4870s in CF), opens it and takes a look/pic of what's inside ! Fair enough ??


However, I call "RAID 0 controller placement" and size incompatibility with the ATI cards by Dell a complete, uber, ultra nonsense !!!

 

Amen to that hehe

And here's to hoping it something that can be fixed/tweaked/modded to work!

 

Their is no physical RAID controller so you won't find much

It all done via software, thus making the whole argument pointless.

 

Someone tell that to Dell Apparently they don't know the contents of their own laptop, or at least the dell reps don't.

 

Hahah I know, Im hoping the issue can be fixed with another BIOS revision or software update mind!

 

Still curious though, if RAID controller on the M17x is software only, why does it have its own BIOS? In my experience anything that has a BIOS is hardware-based.

Sorry if this is a totally stupid question....and I am sure some guys here will make sure I am aware of that lol

 

its software but its built into the bios rom

 

to those who state that M17X's RAID 0 is a software based setup - ummm any actual proof , I mean source/material ?