Frank Azor started following me on Twitter. [emoji23]

I'm just glad that I didn't share this thread with Azor because of a last minute hunch. I've been reading AW forums here for the past few months and it has gone from salty to sour to now bitter. I would blame "fanboyism" for that and mind you, I'm one of the biggest fan of AWs. But the truth be told, AW are not the industry pioneers that they used to be. The lack of G-Sync and 980D card on their single line up tells the story loud and clear. If some one wants portability and battery life, why can't they just offer it in their 13" and 15" setups.


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It's easy to understand. Use same motherboard in AW15 and 17 is much cheaper and easier!

 

This settles the argument! Period.


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Anyways, let the bitter conversations not derail this thread. Here's the next part:



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That works. We shall see.

 

It's funny how people that start with an amazing platform and keep it for 3 to 5 years and upgrade it for a fraction of the cost of a new machine and still have something that runs better and faster can be thought of as anything less than frugal and calculated.

That's quite a list and I doubt I have spent nearly as much on one amazing, servicable, upgrade-friendly and durable monsterbook that can go the distance, reboot and come back stronger in the second round.

When I see a signature that looks like this, it's very hard to have respect for such off the cuff comments. Wasting money? Seems kind of like the pot calling the kettle black to me. At least my strategy works. I don't think I have that many pairs of socks or undershorts.

I have about $2400 invested in my current beast. It was purchased barebones and some of the expensive pieces inside of it were taken from my stash of spare parts. If I credit what I got for my Alienware menagerie that was sold to fund it, the total is under $800.

 

Don't forget about socket-mounted desktop CPUs.

Answer: Because the folks at Clevo are not booty-kissing yes men for Intel or NVIDIA. Apparently, they want to deliver something their more demanding customers can appreciate and be willing to spend money on.

Paper plates and plastic forks are fine for a picnic, but when I want to enjoy a nice juicy steak it won't be served on a paper plate. I'd never go back to a restaurant that tried to serve me that way.

 

Socket-mounted desktop CPUs make a system worse. Plane words from Mr Azor to you Fox. What he really meant..., Can't have socket CPU's in their new slim systems!!

 

Regarding optimus I can notice the performance hit with that bullcrap shim with Hotwell. Just try to run that with a Haswell machine and you'll know how the hand-off happens It puts so much load on the CPU that this furnace CPU rockets upto high 70s then the dGPU switches and the pipeline is always through the iGPU so that perf hit coupled with the load on the CPU is insane and giving the choice to users is what matters utmost the older legacy AW machines have that they just removed that now, So what you have here is no 120Hz internally all that powah and all just for 60FPS cap and no Ext-GSync there goes your war with the P870DM / 77xZM / 77xDM. These machines don't even have that iGPU mode unlike the legacy AW's have a Mux. And BTW does DSR exist on Optimus ?

Also I think the IntelHD on a 6700K is bullcrap waste of die space, instead they could've pulled more performance, look at the HEDT CPUs they don't have that B$ baked into, IMO even the i7's shouldn't have that.


Socketed machines win any-day it's pointless to prove otherwise, Take the example of the P570WM people who use it are more than happy for that only kind of machine, cannot delve into the details and waste the time but one thing is It can run Xeon E5-1680V2 and 4960X those CPUs will rampage almost any machine, the X79 based HEDT computers for true hardcore enthusiasts, The thing is Alienware used to be king of th ehill with the M18x R2 which was legendary and Imagining a successor to that machine with more potent hardware and Alienware's supreme quality it would have been phenomenal, MSI / ASUS would be blown by that but that thing doesn't exist, the AW's motive is shifted now they could've offered both but nope they want that $$$$, I don't think there will be that class of machines anymore look at the mess they made now with Desktops, damage is irreversible, for performance hunters, Clevo is the only option.

MXM thing is a whole another scenario.. I still have hope for the Clevo to release an MXM based 1070, 1080N would be replacing the 980N but a gimped version of 1080DT unlike its predessesor..

 

I think the last Clevo the pre-Dell Alienware team was involved with that had a desktop CPU might have been powered by a Pentium 4. I think the Dell design team lives in their own little dream world and must have lost touch with reality when they past the last highway exit sign. Many of us were excited about Michael Dell taking back his company, but in 20/20 hindsight it does not seem to have done anything but hurt people with our interests. Their product line has never been so undesirable to me than it is today.

 

I think with a signature like mine is someone you should be showing a great deal more respect to, especially upon discovering just how completely WRONG your assumptions are about me Mr. Fox.

I've sold those laptops yes (Usually refurbished systems from some truly excellent suppliers here in the UK) after testing and brief usage so I could sample as many as I could and find the very best brand. Every system resulted in a £100 to £200+ profit for myself and 100% happy customers.

So whilst you've invested..... I've actually earned.
I was not only getting experience but I was MAKING money from a hobby. And one I enjoyed immensely - I was winning on both fronts.
As such I'm well versed in different manufacturers and I fully know what's worth the time and not, especially money wise.

 

Unfortunatly, those 2 and 2 others...

2 are happy go lucky bury their head in the sand, and 2 are oozing negativity sky is falling

(Mr Fox is a respected forum member with many awesome contributions to the forum and I respect him very much, but his latest negative tangents in many AW threads have become borderline trollish and he should know better)

2 extremes collide for sad results

I think you just have a misunderstanding in the argument, (and they may misunderstand yours)

There are 2 completely different market segment. The gaming segment (you) only cares about FPS in games and smoothness and mobility gaming.

The other is the performance enthusiast, a smaller but still very much present group. Their goal it to max out CPU, GPU, and Ram performance on synthetic benchmarks; good gaming performance is a side goal. This cannot be accomplished with locked bios and soldiered components.

To their dismay; a once favored designer of such systems is leaving this market segment, only leaving one choice: CLEVO (and only like 2 models from them). which are good machines, but have their own flaws as well. Performance enthusiasts would like more diversity in choice, but manufactures are not listening.

There is also a minority group (Me) who don't care about benchmarking, but would like the option to upgrade, and is a little irked knowing that my attached GPU component is not performing like it could if it was MXM with direct display.

I think all markets could be catered to; I mean DELL makes HUGE money from Enterprise business, not laptops; Gaming laptops are a show off segment for companies like Dell, Lenovo, and HP; not a meal ticket.



Edit: as to the purpose of this thread, I think it was to be constructive criticism;

as to such, I always thouht it would be great to have a rear facing webcam (especially on the AW 13) even cooler if they could make one of the eyes of the alienhead logo the camera

 

That isn't a minority at all. That actually is what consists of most of the user base. But cutting off upgrade paths just because of something along those lines, isn't really confidence inspiring.

 

I agree with that also. Not everyone that works on their own car is a professional race car driver.

Negativity is all that remains when more or less every basis for which one can find pleasure, confidence and overall satisfaction in a particular product have been removed from the realm of possibilities. Most of the stuff being sold is utter trash, disposable, gimped and worthy of every ounce of criticism leveled at it. Has nothing to do with brand. And, it's all driven by underlying motives based upon greed. When it is a brand like Alienware, the offense is far more grievous. It demonstrates a lack of respect for the customers that have bestowed upon them the privilege of past success. I truly pity the consumers that don't know any better. Expressing such sentiments is not trolling. It is intended to bring shame upon manufacturers for their poor judgment, not incite emotional responses from those think it's OK. Honestly, I don't care if they think it's OK or not, but the fact that they do gives license to the manufacturer to not listen.

Quite the contrary, my hope is that a side benefit is that more people that think it is not OK will be inspired to action, drive an increase in public ridicule and provide motivation to vote "no thank you" with their wallets. If the manufacturers still won't listen, then screw 'em. I hope all of them that do not listen go bankrupt. Good riddance to the entire lot of them. If Alienware gets caught in the crossfire and become a casualty of war, they have only themselves to blame for being stupid and not listening.... collateral damage.

 

Along this line, do you have one of those polls open that people can actually digitally sign? I think that could be constructive, especially if worded properly. Instead of having people "vote with their wallets" you can also have people vote with a popular poll. That would give AW actual feasible #'s in sales that they could be making.

This would make it so manufactures can't arbitrarily blame lack of sales on PC market falling, or console market.

 

This post says it all. You are the WISE old men.

In terms of user base, I'm one of the users who occasionally benchmark just to check how the components of my system are performing and to run the system with its fullest potential. I don't want to buy every iteration of the same product. I want to replace my GPU when the old one gets outdated and keep using the old system until I feel the time has come for me to buy a current generation system. Hence, my interest in the Pascal based AW.

I own a M15x with a 940XM and a 780M which still runs like a champ. This is what AWs used to be. For a investment of around 1600$, I have a system which has passed the test of time. I will never part with my M15 because she gives me joy and THIS is why I'm still giving AW one final chance to impress me.

I will sell my M17xR3 3D when pascal GPUs come out and buy a new system because after 4+ years of service I think I'm ready to part with her.
Some users here buy a laptop every year and hence this thread is not meant for them. So, I urge you to stop playing a blaming game and if you have any valuable inputs about how the next Alienwares should be made, please let us know. If you don't have anything to say along these lines, why are you even posting in this thread?


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dsr is listed as an option in the 17R3 below, whether or not it works is another story

 

No, I'm not aware of one. That really should have been something they did before they made a decision to solder everything to the motherboard. I'm not sure they would listen or pay attention, as they've already seen and heard the contempt for it at least a couple of years and still haven't done anything about it. It might be harder now to get an accurate read on things so late in the game because so many have already moved on or plan to, and the brand does not seem anywhere close to being as relevant today as it was before BGA. If most of the voters that turn out are current Alienware customers that think BGA is acceptable and those that have moved on do not vote the results would be extremely inaccurate.

The problem is not that BGA exists (definitely not something new) nearly as much as the fact that extreme performance capable models with sockets and slots are no longer offered. To me, the absence of such an option constitutes a tragedy and a crisis for the Alienware brand that built a reputation on high performance products. The concept of a BGA Alienware reminds me of a 4-cylinder Mustang or Camaro... basically constituting a cruel and sadistic joke. They should be one of the industry leaders along side Clevo, offering models that buck the system and going against the flow, not sleeping with the enemy.

 

Same thing can be said about the CLA45, A45 AMG from Mercedes, a turbocharged 4 cylinder engine. Also, dropping natural aspirated engines for forced-induction due to environmental reasons reminds me of dellienware's ""battery life"" excuse for new models.

 

But in some cases, BGA does prevail over socket. Take the ASUS GX800 prototype, it uses BGA component but outperforms the AW18 (lol)

What I really don't get is, why isn't socket used? Using socketed components only net benefit from a performance standpoint, and power consumption is not different from BGA counterpart.



In another note, I tested the 180w and 210w (pa 7e) with the Alienware 17R3, interesting result below.

With aggressive undervolt on the 6700HQ [core, cache, iGPU], at max it only consumes 35w. Note that this is rated at 45-47w before the undervolt.
With Prema vBIOS, I am able to reach 1485core/1500mem on 1.2v, consumes 145w max / 115w average
GPU VRM thermal pad replaced by Arctic 6W/mK

Playing KF2 = CPU throttle to 600MHz randomly, temp is under 65c - goes on around 5 minutes and makes game totally unplayable
Playing KF2 = GPU throttle back down to P8 due to "PWR" throttling, VRMs overheat (GPU temp below 70c) - happens much less frequently than the CPU throttle

AIDA64 CPU + Heaven (4K, Ultra, Maxed tesselation) = same issue above, GPU throttle much more frequently, and at one point the CPU won't recover from the 600mhz throttle

PCH/Chipset temp, 93.5c thanks to not having a heatsink. Moreover since the iGPU handles the internal display (optimus), more info is routed through the PCH chip, cooking it with heat. I believe the TJmax is 100+C, but it isn't good to hover in the borderline safe limits of what Intel set.

Chargers

210W isn't enough to power the system. My battery went from 100 to 95 after an hour session of KF2 and 30m of Heaven + AIDA64 CPU

180W is even worse, 10 minutes in Heaven+AIDA64 CPU = goes down to 91%, battery is used in a hybrid power fashion



Backing down the overvolt to 1.15 or 1.125v [970M] largely eliminates the PWR throttle, happens extremely rarely.


Problem list
1. CPU VRM overheat - probable cause of 600mhz CPU throttle
2. GPU VRM overheat - probable cause of PWR limit on GPU
3. 180W doesn't supply enough juice, 210w is cutting close to the power limit


Don't see the CPU and GPU power draw alone, consider the following also draw a bit of power from the system
1. Other peripherals you plug in
2. Screen
3. Fans
4. Storage devices
5. Various other monitoring sensors in the motherboard
6. PSU efficiency rating (max output isn't exactly clean 180 or 210w)

I think 330w should be standard on all "performance" laptops, with exception of the 6700HQ and 970M getting 240W it's OK.



While the screen is gorgeous (to be fair, it's the best that I've ever seen on a laptop display), all other components are very disappointing. Glad the machine isn't mine.

 

The issue is that this is a compromised design overall. The only reason the ASUS prototype could outperform the Alienware 18 with a 4930MX can be attributed to design defects with the Alienware 18 more so than a demonstration of superiority by the ASUS in question.

I was the first to post about and use a video to demonstrate the inadequacies of the 180W AC adapter when Alienware's first 980M BGA models were released. @D2 Ultima has covered the universal functional limitations of BGA CPUs in great detail (see links in his signature). When a platform is built on a concept of cutting corners and compromising on size and weight, and the design places significant focus on maximizing mobility, enhancing battery run time and limiting power consumption, something has to give. Otherwise, the list of problems would be much longer than what you have observed. Had power consumption and performance not been limited effective thermal management would be virtually impossible. Problems like those you have observed are not limited to Alienware and they have probably done a better than typical job of managing compromise compared to competitors selling similarly built models. It would be unrealistic to expect more performance because these systems are simply not engineered to handle more. As such, they are unavoidable compromises that BGA supporters have to be willing to accept as reality. The use of low-TDP CPU and limiting GPU performance are necessary evils associated with reduction in form factor and limited power supply.

 

It's not power limited, probably just bad thermal pads. I know that iunlock runs his 6820HK without throttle or issues like the test machine below. But that's using extremely expensive 17W/mK thermal pads.

While the 6x BGA CPU doesn't throttle at listed boost (sustaining 3.1GHz 4 cores indefinitely in the 6700HQ), the HK is badly binned, see the OC result for the 6820HK and the chip needs a lot more volts compared to previous XM CPUs.

 

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double post

 

It has to be power limited because a single 980M pushed hard enough can pull as much as 250W all by itself. As temperatures rise, using more voltage is required to maintain stability, so that can become a vicious circle. That may be coming into play as well. If the machine were thicker and had a more robust cooling system it likely would require less voltage.

 

To be truly clear, Skylake mobile has no TDP limit issues unless a machine is designed to limit the draw (think of the M17x R4 being incapable of delivering over 68W to its CPU, even the 3920XM, when the 3920XM most definitely is NOT the problem in itself). It's a huge step in the right direction, meaning that there being no choice of socketed chips is the only REAL inherent unfixable problem with the CPUs... one can simply buy a laptop which would provide power properly if they desired a mobile CPU-using system (a P670RG for example has a MUX switch and 6820HK capability, so someone could get a machine that can handle load when they want it and still get good battery life when it is not necessary to handle excessive power, something a P7xxDM or P870DM cannot do).

That being said, there are still a few issues.

Firstly, they're all extremely slow. The fastest CPU out of the box has a 4-core load of 3.4GHz. The slowest has 3.1GHz. Compared to the high end 3.7GHz Ivy/Haswell chips, they're actually slower (even considering IPC improvements). This coupled with Skylake being cooler than Haswell/Broadwell (and possibly Ivy Bridge) means they can shove the low end chips into machines that otherwise have problems cooling i7s like the 4710HQ (see: Razer Blades, Gigabyte P34x, etc). Also, as @Mobius 1 said, the 6820HKs aren't very good overclockers. They require a lot of voltage and pull a lot of power reaching barely 4GHz, which is available by default in the desktop chips which are heavily undervolt-able, and they draw a LOT of power compared to what the 6700Ks will at those speeds. They LOOK like that have a high turbo boost, but instead of having 1-core be 200MHz faster than 3-4 core, it's now 400MHz faster, and people don't look at the 4-core boosts for anything, so they figure they're getting a decently fast chip. Finally though, we have the 6700HQ:

The 6700HQ is extremely locked. You cannot even turn down its turbo and keep the chip at 3.1GHz at all times; its only choices are turbo on (3.5GHz 1 core, 3.3GHz 2 core, 3.1GHz 3-4 core) or turbo off (2.5GHz 1-4 cores). It also has the same MSRP as the 6820HQ (AND 6820HK), which is 100MHz faster across the board (base and all boost bins), can be overclocked by 400MHz and have its boost fine-tuned like the Haswell chips could, AND has the intel tech that the 6700HQ and 6820HK lack, like intel vPro, and lacks the extra 2MB L3 cache of all other Skylake HQ i7s, having only 6MB. The 6700HQ has NO REASON TO EXIST. Period. 100MHz is nothing for heat with these chips, especially when already clocked so slow, and the tuning functionality, extra L3 cache, and extra intel tech would be useful for everyone buying a laptop. The 6820HQ should be the 6700HQ, the 6820HK should be the only 68xxHx chip, and the 6920HQ can remain right where it is for all I really care.

Of course, none of what I said just now has anything to do with them being BGA or not. But just take it to mind what Intel is doing to the mobile market in general... even if they removed the inborne TDP limits of the mobile chips (which is honestly fixing the primary issue I had with them in the first place), it has to be understood that they're still low-balling us.

 

Really the amount of arrogance in this thread is astounding.

Thanks it sure was.

Really the amount of arrogance in this thread is astounding.

A 980m non optimus laptop performs pretty much the same as an optimus enabled 980m laptop. The different are negligible. The real differece is battery life vs gsync or higher framerate panels.

Really the amount of arrogance in this thread is astounding.

It is a whole new platform. Haswell versus Skylake. So no it is not a rebadge. Especially not in the terms how rebadge is used in the PC world.

 

It wouldn't hurt to add optimus / dGPU only mode to the system you know.

 

I'll get a 6820HK system by 27-28 of this month to test, PM me what you want to run and I'll do it.

Also, what lacking features could possibly a detriment to regular user. Is vPro even useful in day to day usage?

 

True that wouldnt indeed hurt. I always understood Nvidia dropped support on that. Anyone knows more about that?

 

Nvidia allow the switch between dGPU and iGPU usage.

Optimus + dGPU only: Alienware 17" + ACER Predator 15/17 (17x ???)
iGPU or dGPU only: Alienware 18" + MSi GT72/80 (other models ???)

 

nVidia to my knowledge released no reference MXM designs for Pascal mobile. So, in effect, everything is "custom" and there is no guarantee that any new card will work with any old system purely due to PCB configuration or literal shape of the card. HOWEVER, this did not happen on the launch of the 900M series, which is when the AW machines dropped MXM, so to say that is the reason or part of the reason is an outright lie.

Clevo quality has gone up and down over the years, but if you take care of them they'll last ages. They have become much better, though, in recent times. I think their current line is fleshed out well enough (though there is a slight problem with the way the CPU heatsink on the P870DM lies, apparently, but it's not enough to cause cooling problems).

Gigabyte didn't either, just for the record. I should say it more like "Only MSI, Clevo and ASUS made any"... at least I THINK ASUS did one? I am not rightfully sure; I think they stopped at 980M SLI. Acer's 980 machine isn't out yet to my knowledge either.

I think we're just enjoying their focus on enterprise, which prizes performance, accessibility of parts for maintenance, and replace-ability of parts for saving of cash.

The only thing I could ask you to do is get it stable as you can at 4GHz to 4.5GHz (or as high as it'll go for benching) and check power draw and voltage required with Throttlestop & HWiNFO. If I'm right, 6700Ks at 4GHz or so should draw a lot less with a sufficient undervolt, and even at higher clockspeeds they should be a lot more efficient.

As for the lacking features, it's more the CPU's tune-ability. For example I set my 4800MQ to 3.5GHz for all bins (so it doesn't spike to 3.7) and it makes my undervolt stable as can be (overclocking is possible, but generates too much heat for my environment unfortunately, but I can get it stable at higher speeds; I just prefer to keep it at stock for temps). The 6700HQ cannot do that, but the 6820HQ can. Even if you couldn't overclock the chip, the ability to tune the available turbo bins is pretty useful especially with undervolts. Moreso when you consider most people gaming won't actually see a benefit from the increased single-thread and dual-thread bins, and it'll make undervolting easier to find stable. It's just that the 6820HQ is a better chip in every regard, and costs the same as far as MSRP goes (of course sellers charge more because #MakeMoneyOffMobility). There's no point to the 6700HQ existing, because it's such a locked down chip.

 

Asus deliver 980 with their laptop model with dock. Gigabyte deliver at least 970m Sli, although it boils in their system. Acer is late to the party, but will be included. The same with Auros. Dell excluded desktop card and Sli. In summary ... Asus, Clevo, MSI, Acer, Auros and Gigabyte wants to offer more than a pity single 980M in their high end performance models. Alienware and Mr. Azor did not want to be with. And pushed rather for their G/A, although they seeking the portability with their slim thin gaming models!! This does not make sense. Full commitment to maximum portability and Max performance, but wants you to be tethered into Your desk home when you shall use your best graphics for your tiny laptop. Most of the major chose another direction.

 

I see. Didn't realize you counted it like that.

As for Aorus, they are owned by Gigabyte. It's their, for lack of a better word, "gamer boy" line. Costs more than gigabyte Pxxx models and Aero models, looks more gamey and sleek, generally better design but the benefits are lost with SLI in thermal/power control. The single GPU models have acceptable thermals considering the form factor though.

 

Although Auros is Gigabyte gamer boy line or not... Even if they are late to the party. They want deliver more than AW if you want gaming without being tethered to your desk home. Same as all the big brand push out more than a single 980m in one of their gaming models!!

http://www.aorus.com/Product/Features/X7 DT

 

Personally I wouldn't buy anything from Gigabyte. I have some of their products and quality is a lottery. Asus is just a bit better.

 

This thread has deviated far from its original topic ...closed. Create new threads if desired.

Charles