"Glossy vs matte screens: why the PC industry?s out of touch"

Certainly the PC industry seems to be (and stay) out of touch... Glossy vs matte screens: why the PC industry’s out of touch | PC Pro blog

and also: http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/367165/lack-of-matte-screens-driving-imac-fans-to-windows-pcs
What about the Dellienware consumers?

Hope this forum and their members can accept this thread as an important topic for a healthy debate since we spend a significant amount of hours of our life (working, gaming, researching, etc.) in front of those displays.

Lately more and more attention to the topic is developing worldwide as well as some incipient researchs ( http://dailydose.righthealth.com/uncategorized/glossy-screens-may-pose-ergonomic-strain/ and http://www.appleinsider.com/article...s_apples_glossy_screens_may_cause_injury.html ) in the adverse effects health (eyes, nerves, vision system, etc.) and mental (focus, concentration, etc.) problems related to those screens.

Can we hear here the voice of people?

 

It's all about marketing. The average person (read: Not NBR and other tech savvy forum enthusiasts) purchases their computer at Best Buy and other retailers.

The computers on display there "look better" with glossy screens under their lighting, and it allows the manufacturer to get away with using substandard screens because their imperfections are "hidden" by the glossy display type.

It's all about $$$$$$, bottom lines, and ultimately how manufacturers could care less about giving consumers quality display options since marketing is all about catering to the lowest common denominator.

This is one of the biggest issues I have with the tech industry, nay, society as a whole. We cater far too much to the lowest common denominator. This argument can be extended to MANY things, not just computer displays.

 

[Can't say much about the adverse health effects, but IMHO, for a complete computing and gaming experience 2 things are needed, -

1) Very good color reproduction including perfect viewing angles.

2) Matte or at the very least semi-glossy finish.[/B]

There are no excuses here. With the current screen polarizers, there's absolutely no graininess problem anymore. In fact, the panel behind your M18x Edge to Edge glass is MATTE

Also, current IPS panels have a low enough response time to be considered by hardcore gamers. Input lag may still be a problem in some cases, but the majority of gamers and enthusiasts won't even notice any lag even if they try hard.

From my personal experience, switching from a dual CCFL to an RGBLED had a WOW effect, but switching from the RGBLED TN to 30-bit IPS RGBLED was WOW^10. Really, I'm not kidding. It was so WOW that I paid 3k for a HP8740w and waited 3 months to get it from the US. It was so WOW that I played many games only because of the visuals, and was occasionally catching myself staring at the desktop wallpaper forgetfully (adverse heath effects? )

My 2cents of course, but I'd pay premium for the premium visual experience.

 

It's become so bad, even Apple is using glossy displays now and their loyal fans are in an uproar. I used to commend Apple for always using quality displays on all their products, but to see them largely switching to glossy is disheartening.

Why not let the consumer decide?

I'll say it again, because it IRKS me that companies do not do this:

Why not let the consumer decide?!?

 

Don't forget the part where you sold the 8740W.

 

It's a matter of consumer vs stock holder. The latter wants to see bigger returns on investments. In order to do that you gotta cut costs. If you were to open a company tomorrow and gave your employees good pay and treat them great plus sold consumers the real good stuff at a fair price; you'd make the news but you'd be out of business in less than 1yr.

If stock holders get no return on their money they move it elsewhere. Without capital (not income) you can't operate a business. Income pays the bills, capital allows you to operate and grow.

 

I don't want a fair price. I want the option to have the tech.

I'm not expecting good displays to cost the same as the crappy ones.

You're basically saying they can't offer the "good stuff" because they'll lose money on it trying to sell it at a "fair price", but they can sell "the good stuff" at a premium (as they should) for those willing to pay it.

 

Totally agree! and the uproar is growing...
An Aikimox: YES!!! you're totally right. I can't understand how it's good 4 the business when the complains are growing... after a short period of admiring the shininess...

 

Only reason I don't own a m18x atm is because of the glare type screen. Gives me headaches

 

I think that, relatively, I represent a large (and growing) population of people with photophobia (high sensitivity to light). All of my faculty scholar colleagues suffer some kind of photophobia and or eyes tiredness, lack of concentration, etc. when working with reflective displays. This is a conditions that seems to be growing globaly due to the increased use of visual media in the everyday life.

It also relate to headache, stress tension, fatigue, migraines (even without pain) and other sintoms...

My point is that the consumers must let their voice be heard by the industry of laptops. The stats, so far, show that most of the people, complain about the reflective / glossy screens. But if the consumers shut up... then the industry considers it legitimate to ignore them.

As Apple users are doing in their forums, let's organize our complains regarding the lack of choice at least in the laptop screens field.

 

Users did something similar in the Lenovo blog to petition the elimination of IPS panels in the older notebooks and were effectively shot down due to money (ie. not enough return on investment). Unfortunately, educated people are in the minority and even when we're vocal, money talks more than opinions.

 

Of course I did! Like every other notebook I've owned (except one). Most of the enthusiasts here sell their systems after 1 year. But you're looking at this from a different side. You should have asked why I kept it for almost a year despite the fact that I hate HP and am a big fan of AW I kept it because of the screen and would still be keeping it if I hadn't figured out how to upgrade the AW panels. Plus, we have succeeded in installing an IPS panel on a gaming notebook (NDA) and it worked perfectly with both the 485M and 6970M
+ Speedy has shown us that it's possible to mod the lid and get a MATTE screen. + I'm working with a screen manufacturer (NDA) to get a 18.4" IPS panel - custom order.


And after all that I'm back with the confidence of turning the M18x into a truly perfect machine

 

The stats shown that the users complaining and asking for matte (or at least a way to snap-in/snap-out voluntarily the E2E plastic glossy cover) are the big majority.

Besides, if the people shown and declare that they are ready to pay they dollars for a matte display... the money should talk... more than opinions.

Dear Aiki: My congratulations on your efforts. I totally agree with your reasons regarding the IPS/REG-LED. I do hope you (or someone with business/tech approach and knowledge can find a way so we can upgrade our Dellienware machines displays without loosing our warranties. Or, maybe, at least find someone that can design the "snap-in/snap-out" E2E plexiglass cover... and sell it to us.

The Speedy's way is a nice (and very delicate) one but you need to unglue and glue again the E2E to mainatin the warranty... too complicated in the opinion of my colleagues and me.

 

The problem here is that the consumers are deciding. They may complain, but they still buy the latest great big crappy monitors. Complaints don't necessarily equal lower sales. (For ease of reading, the generic term "monitors" here refers to all displays, including laptop screens.)

If a company can sell a monitor using crappy materials, or they can sell the same monitor using the best materials that exist, they'll choose crappy every time... until it affects sales. Unfortunately, the VAST majority only care about one thing... price, so it will never affect sales.

The reality is that while a small percentage will refuse to buy a monitor because of a glossy screen, 5x that many will go "ooooooh" over the 20,000:1 dynamic contrast ratio, or some other useless marketing mumbo jumbo, and sales will, if anything, go through the roof, and the pissed off minority opinion will get lost in the record profits.

 

Not quite: If the the consumers are deciding (in some way) they are doing that according to the limited configuration choice the industry is giving. A diversity of polls shown that consumers are willing to pay a premium price if the can solve their problems with the glossiness. (worth to check the links in my firts post in this thread)

 

I have a U2711 for a desktop screen and the graininess is truly disgusting on a monitor of this level. Modern screens may be capable of eliminating it, but they have not, at ANY price level in the IPS format at least. And what's triply funny in contrast to the above arguments is that said graininess gave me a headache because I strain to read fine pitch text. I've relegated this monitor to gaming where fine pitch isn't as much of an issue and pretty much refuse to use it for any fine print work. I might well go through the effort of destroying the screen just to remove that matte coating. It is that bad.

For premium machines I would agree however that they should offer matte and glossy options and let the market pick. I'll tell you however, that I find it far, far easier to adjust the light I'm dealing with than to get rid of the graininess (in IPS I'm referring to, TN does not have nearly this affect because of the nature off the matrix). So if you gave me the option, and the M18x was IPS, I'd take glossy. I have both types in my collection and know full well what the visual benefits are of each.

 

Don't get me wrong. I agree that there's a limited choice and it sucks, and I'm not disputing your evidence. However, you have to understand that there's a distinct difference between poll results and market results.

I can ask a random person off the street, "Would you pay 20% more for a high-quality monitor made from premium materials, over a monitor that barely meets minimum standards?" That person would probably say, "Why, of course," then walk right into the store and buy the cheapest monitor he can find. It doesn't make sense, I know... but it's true.

Likewise, people may complain all day about glossy screens, but again, run right into their nearest computer store and buy the cheapest (glossy) monitor.

My point is... If a manufacturer saw a significant drop in sales when they dropped their matte monitors, or if their matte monitors were outselling their glossy ones 5 to 1, even if they're priced 20% higher, then they'd all go matte. The reality is that glossy ones sell just as well, so why bother?

Of course, it's even more complicated than that. Dell doesn't actually make monitors, they just resell them. They're also limited by what's out there. They'll only buck the trend and buy the rarer matte monitors if it's worth their while. The reality, again, is that it simply won't be. No matter what people say in polls, dell will lose no significant percentage of sales due to the glossy screen.

Having said all this... I hate my glossy screen and would kill for a matte screen. I also agree that there should be a choice. I'm just saying that it's probably unrealistic to expect that we'll ever get it.

 

Try the U3011... (not all the Matte, as not all the Glossy, are made equal).

That's the central point (and purpose) of this thread.

 

FXI,

I agree, there should be an option for glossy and matte screens. We all have different experience and preferences and hopefully we can all agree that putting a mediocre panel on a flagship system with zero choice - is not the best practice...

 

Now, how we get to persuade (convince?) Dellienware of that so simply truth? ( and that there is good business in doing that?)

 

I love my AW more with each passing day, it truly is an amazing computer. The one thing I can't stand about it though, is the glossy screen. It drives me nuts. There's a lamp on an end table that serves as the main source of light in my livingroom that sits directly behind me, opposite my computer desk. There's also a bookshelf above the laptop that overhangs just enough to lay a small shadow over the screen. This combination means that unless my head is directly in front of the screen, I'm staring at a lamp the whole time.

It's not so bad when the image is bright, but for movies or games where it's in the dark, (you know, those parts where it's hard to see, but it's usually more vitally important to see better?) it get's damn near impossible to see until I swivle around out of my comfy place.

I've never liked glossy screens, and could never understand why it was the only option provided. TV's are doing that now too, it's incredible. People just love glare, apparently.

 

Me love you long time!

 

Not so: acording to the surveys (see the links in my first post in this thread), besides some few, people (consumers) in general dislike very much the glossiness. The proble is that the industry doesn't listen... and the consumers have no options unless they start to complain massively.

There are technical design options (from the cheaper ones like a "snap-in/snap-out glossy cover to the more expensive like a newly designed screen and more customizing options for the consumer), but unless the consumers let their voice be heard loudly and insistent, the manufacturers will continue "the easy way"...

 

I enjoy my glossy screen as long as it has a decent anti-reflective coating (I've used my Acer laptop in the Caribbean where there is lots of sunlight, without problems). The problem is that there are many levels of quality between glossy screens (and conversely matte ones). There are many great glossy and matte screens and there are many more crappy ones. You can't group all glossy and all matte into separate categories.

 

That's right too. If the costumers have the option to customize their choice of screens, things would look different (and could be a very good business indeed for the manufacturers).

The problem is that the anti-reflective coating not always are easy to install avoiding bubbles, etc. also they decrease in some degree (very important for some of us that use the computer also for work) the quality of colors. So it maybe a cheap solution but just for some...

The first real solution is to let the consumer choice between glossy and matte screens... since in many cases behind the glossy E2E cover there is a matte screen. The second solution can be (as as been proposed before, sorry is there is a need to repeat), a "snap-in/snap-out" E2E cover that allow users the flexibility to put it in or take it out according to their needs (games, work, movies, outdoor, indoor, etc.).

In the two cases there can be a premium price (and a good business for the industry) that many are ready to pay (as the surveys show).

 

I am looking at getting a pair of U2311h screens, this will be my first IPS experience as well as first matte screens in a while, I will see what I think. So far though, the M18x screen has not annoyed me until you walk outside....good luck using the thing outside during the daytime at all

 

The m17x R3 in my office right now is like a damn mirror under office lighting.

At the time I bought this, I'd of been willing to spend another $400 on some kind of matte IPS panel with high gamut.

Keep in mind, the argument isn't just glossy vs matte, it's quality vs. no quality. The average consumer laptop display is abysmal. Every laptop monitor should, at the very least, cover sRGB space.

Seeing certain Acer panels with 35% gamut coverage and even the m11x display at 42% coverage gives me rage. When will people wake up and realize they're being sold garbage?

And I also don't understand the price argument. Admittedly I am fairly well off, but I do place value in money. I want to make sure my money is going into a QUALITY PRODUCT, no matter how cheap the product may be. If I'm paying $500 for an Acer laptop, I'd still want to know that I'm not getting a POS display, because that's still $500 I'm shelling out. Obviously my argument holds more weight when you consider the $1,000 + m11x with arguably one of the worst displays on the market. Glossy or matte matters not here, because in general the display is garbage on a premium system. That's truly the problem.

In my opinion it just comes down to people not placing value in quality, only price. I wish that attitude would change, because we'd all be better off.

 

A lot of it is all the corruption and greed you see in big business. CEO's and top execs don't need to make hundreds of millions of dollars. It's just ridiculous. I agree they should be fairly compensated for their hard work, stress, and liability but you could safely chop executive pay in half without affecting their lavish lifestyle.

Then all that money could be properly reinvested back into giving consumers real products and services, instead of outsourced calling centers and low quality nonsense.

This is a bad argument path for me, because this kind of stuff gets me fired up. I'm not a fan of the way the world works.

 

Another Poll:


From: http://www..com/matte-vs-glossy-screens

 

I have repeatedly left them messages to offer both. It would end so many hard discussions across the web. I did consider the U3011 heavily in fact, however several, who's eyes I could trust, declared the grain to be no better and no worse than the U2711. Since the U2711 is bad I am not spending more money just to be as unhappy with that as I am with the U2711.

As for IPS, I'd like it very much, but I can live with the same quality and gamut as the RGBLED in the R2. That was a custom built panel, which eventually found it's way into more models. Was that so hard to do for the supposed "best of breed" M18x? I don't want to say that custom backlights are done all the time, they aren't. But they aren't rare either for HP, Sony or Dell. Sorry, hitting that poor horse again. I'll stop.
I have and will continue to try to get Dell and HP to understand that offering the same screen in both matte and glossy would be in everyone's best interest, even if I suspect that when some of you someday have the two exact same panels side by side, you will probably not like matte as much anymore. Anyway, choice shouldn't hurt anyone.

 

I had very good experiences with the U3011. Yes it's very expensive. but my eyes and optical nerves deserve it.

I want to believe that eventually Dell can't continue ignoring threads that this one and the many polls all over the internet.

But consumers must find effective ways to organize and make their voice be heard.

 

That poll reprents next to nothing. 1000 people with no other data? Pretty worthless.

 

Maybe. Maybe not.
It's not more than a sample (not a research).

There are lot of them accross the web. Lenovo has its own, Apple has its own... Then there are others made by magazines from different countries. And so on. I don't think this is a place to bring each one... You can "bing" or "google" and find more... Each and everyone shows a marked prefference for matte... Compare them and extract your own conclusions.

 

Not sure if this helps Aikimox, but here is the picture I was able to get. Sadly the sticker was of course covered by the magnesium alloy frame....(which I was not comfortable removing as it is the anchor for the E2E as well I believe)

 

The problem with forum polls is that they are inherently useless. There isn't anything to draw conclusions from. Who is voting and who isn't? The people who are fine with non-matte screens likely couldn't care less so they aren't properly represented.

But the thing that matters most is money. Money talks the loudest and you vote yes on glossy screens with that money every time you buy one.

 

if you read those polls and the posts on the topic you find people from both sides arguing their position. Of course there are always people that don't state their position. From both side. In my case (as a micro-sample) my faculty scholar colleagues, they even don't care to read those forum or to participate in polls... I'm the only one among them. But when I ask each one of them, they all say the same: they will never buy a glossy display. Their common reason? In this days where we center the teaching in the students (and you must see and pay fully attention to their faces and their eyes), it's totally impossible (and even not accepted) to give lectures in a classroom without full light. In that conditions, with a glossy display, the lecturer only see it's own face or the ceiling and it's lights... You can't find a position where the screen is useful to give lectures, dissertations, etc.
Now, how many faculty scholars use laptops and suffer from the same issue all over the world? That's quite a number my friend. And this is just one sample "situation".

Then you have the lab works, where you have full light from the ceiling and many people working varios tasks. You can't shut down and dim the lights to serve the demands of a glossy screen.

Then, of course, you go home and want to game even to just relax, or watch a movie... etc. You can't dictate to all your family to shut down the lights... Not always you can have a "special room" for yourself and a glossy display...

In the past 3 years I have been asking this question to my colleagues in a diversity of international congresses and seminars (in about 32 countries) as well in my lectures (my 'students' are university teachers and professors). Almost all of them reject the simple idea of a glossy screen and they accuse the limitations imposed by a too simplistic market view.

Regarding the money issue, I totally agree with you. And people are willing to pay to have the last and the better display they can. Even more that they really need. So, the minimal intention of those polls or 'survey' samples is to show that there is a market there that deserve a much better and deep research and study of the needs and willingness of people to pay the price to answer those needs.


There is a big and growing business (and money) in this world for those that are ready to pay attention to the needs of people. Will Dellienware listen? Who knows? There are none worst deaf than those who do not want to hear...

 

Quite a number based on ... what? See where I'm going here? You asking around (no matter how much you seem to have done) doesn't really equal much of a sample size.

These also sound like people who haven't used any current tech. There are glossy screens that work just fine in a brightly lit environment.

The problem is that those polls/surveys don't really do that. No business in their right mind would base any kind of decision to do anything with that information. And they would be correct in doing so.

 

Wow, great job, M8! The screen is from Samsung.This definitely narrows the search. Wish you could tell the 2 letters after the LTN184H... Anyway, I will check mine in a couple of days, when my English keyboard arrives.

+1 rep

 

Glad it helps some.....hopefully the sticker on yours will be fully visible. Was not too bad taking off the lid aluminum cover

The notebook was a nightmare to take apart for re-pasting though haha

And sorry for the poor picture quality - only had my phone at the time and it lacks anything even resembling a macro setting lol (anyone know of a good Android camera?!)

 

So, the model number most likely starts with LTN184HT0x-xxx. The last three letters/numbers may not be present. The good thing is, the RGB LED replacement panel we found is also Samsung and most likely has the same connector type.

 

That would be great.

 

Dear JCrichton
Maybe I’m wrong, but I’m feeling that you miss the point of the thread.

In nowhere my intention was to suggest that those polls put a thesis on the table or even give us a sustained research data supporting the ‘issue’ of the lack of matte screens (as the result of a PC industry out of touch with some or part of the market).

The only thing that all those web pages with a diversity of mentions of an ‘issue’ a regarding the lack of matte screens give us is a glimpse to an hypothesis (“the PC industry’s out of touch” with the needs / preferences of matte screens for an unidentified part of a market). What the thread try to put “on the table” is a) that there is an issue ; b) that it worth be researched and studied and c) that the PC industry seems to be out of touch with a significant part of the market (and we don’t know and don’t state yet how significant it’s) and d) that maybe (another hypothesis) the PC industry will do better getting in touch to do better business with this part of the market supplying different configuration options.

When a business start to focus and listen to a market to analyze its business potential, then it start a research and a study of the results of the research. The first thing is to be aware of the diversity inside a particular market. Then come the questions and identifications: a) who conform this market, b) what are the needs and /or preferences of this particular market and of its diversity, c) how large are those ‘diversities’ inside the particular market, d) how it’s possible to develop a convenient business market by answering the identified needs (and / or preferences); and e) what are the potentials of the market (and it’s diversity) to afford the answers to their needs / preferences. And so on…

Since the matte screens configuration options seems to have disappeared, it’s seems that “the PC industry’s out of touch” (or simply are intentionally ignoring or not listening to the diversity in the market).

Here, thanks to the generous option that gives us NBR, we try to consolidate and elevate a voice directed mostly to the consumers and to the PC industry not to state “matte or glossy” or matte vs. glossy. Just to instigate toward something much more essential and simple. As FXi put it: they should offer matte and glossy options and let the market pick or, in the sensitive words of SaosinEngaged: Why not let the consumer decide?!? The matte technology is already proven and present and the consumers seem to be willing to pay for it.

My apologize to all for the extension of this post ( if the moderators cut or delete it, I will understand).

 

Are you able to do business in the US? I assume yes, but just wanted to confirm. If so, how much more cost is associated with getting a notebook down here. (I'm in Texas FYI) Will the screen replacement void the warranty?

I won't be buying for at least a few months, but when I do buy, I want the best screen possible.

 

Yes, we can definitely do business in the US. We will soon have a branch in Colorado Springs. Not to hijack the thread, PM me when the time comes and we can discuss the available options.

 

samsung ltn184ht01 ?

 

Dunno yet, most of the ltn184ht01-xxx models are CCFL not LED. I will open mine in a couple of days.

 

CCFL is not the end of the world...a CCFL IPS screen would still look great......

Was the RGBLED of the R2 IPS or TFT?

 

As far as I know all the current laptop IPS panels are RGB LED or just LED not CCFL. The RGBLED in R2 was TN not IPS.

 

Hello Aiki!

Any news on your welcomed screen 'enterprise'?

 

Not yet. I still don't have the exact model number for the stock screen.