M17x and DPC Latency

I do not understand why is this talk that the GPUs are affecting audio.
Normally, the audio controller is off the Southbridge via the PCI bridge (which is why the firewire chip is important as it is integrated into it) while the GPUs should be directly connected to the Northbridge via the PCI-Express x16 bus.
If the GPUs do affect audio it must be done indirectly and through a more systemic mechanism. Is anybody able to correlate the DPC Latency spikes with the CPU spikes (through the Vista/Win7 gadgets) for example?

Also, if somebody can find the design block diagram of the laptop it will be useful to further pinpoint some design flaws.

 

Well, I suspect the problem to be related for a couple reasons. One is that the insane latency spikes are reduced when running from integrated graphics. That's not to say the 4k latency peaks that happen even on integrated graphics are good, but its not enough to cause noticeable issues during audio playback. Also, it's been my experience that the audio issues seem to happen LESS when playing more graphically intense games. That leads me to believe that, like others suspect, the power management of the graphics cards or something along those lines are the major culprit for the huge spikes. Those are the ones that are most noticeable and intrusive to normal usage.

 

In that case the ATI's might behave better because I only get up to 4k latency with the crossfire cards active. I also don't really experience stuttering anymore since reinstalling windows 7 and putting my SSD in, however I am having issues with audio bugginess . Maybe a new BIOS and new audio drivers would set up M17x users just right.

 

hey, take a look at this

http://www.notebookforums.com/showthread.php?t=230650



Hello,

My name is Richard; I am the Dell/Alienware laptop liaison for the Dell Community forums. For those of you who are experiencing audio issues which have been suggested to be related to DPC latency; I wanted to provide you an update.

At this time we are investigating how DPC latency could be causing the following reported symptoms.

- Audio stutters, clicks, pops, and drops
- Frame drops while watching videos
- Audio/Video desync during video playback

We realize how important it is for our customers to be informed. You will be updated as soon as possible when we know for sure what is causing this issue and how to correct it.

For more information please refer to our blog statement.

Best regards,

Richard Bernier
__________________
Richard Bernier

Dell Community Forum Liaison: Dell/Alienware Laptop & Security

Follow me on twitter! Need updated Dell or Alienware Drives?



blog link : http://en.community.dell.com/blogs/direct2dell/archive/2009/11/18/dell-dpc-latency-and-you.aspx

 

Hi Richard,

I was just reading the dells blog link in your sig. I'm sure that you have gone through this post here. Mostly what we have found about the latency spike issues were analyzed by many posters here and it comes down to two reasons.

First one that causes the massive spikes (mostly 16k+ can reach to 200k) is due to the GPUs changing their clock speed. You can clearly see this if you run the DPC latency check and any GPU clock reader(GPU-z) and run any graphical game. You will notice the spikes occurring every time the GPUs change the clock speed(down, or up).

The other reason is more complicated i think. It revolves around the ACPI process, and we are not sure what is causing it to spike up to 4k.

If you are reading this i hope that you guys will figure out the issue. It is more severe on Windows 7 than on Vista by the way. And i cant believe that the testing team and quality assurance team did not catch this.....

 

I don't think the post above yours is Richard it's someone here linking to his post.

 

Yeah i posted the same thing there as well

 

just had a huge stutter on the audio on skype as the warning 10% battery came on.

could it be linked to the osd drivers?

 

Its related to battery and power managment. someone at the clevo forum suggested that if we remove the battery/turn it off and let the laptop operate on power adaptor, we should get less stuttering. I have not tried it but i dont think it will make a difference to how the laptop checks battery or power.

 

Wow!! I literally have my M17x sitting in my Dell Shopping Cart while I decide what components would be the most worthy of an upgrade. As I mulled over going with the a faster CPU, video card, memory and "to Raid or Not to Raid" I stumbled on to this thread while looking for more reviews to see what other people have upgraded to. CRAP!! Talk about busting a brutha's bubble! Then it popped up on my Engadget RSS feed and my heart dropped.

Hey BatBoy and Scook9. Do you mind if I ask you both what setup both of you went with your M17x? I still plan on buying mine cuz my Inspirion E1705 is on its last leg after 4 years of decent to good service from a professional system standpoint. (web developer) Now I'm looking for a Laptop that actually exceeds the minimum requirements when it comes to playing games and watching HD video. I also do a fair amount of video editing in my spare time and I am a bit concerned now. If I can set up my system to match some of the guys who are not expecting this problem, at least I can try to get out in front of this.

However Batboy and Scook9 aren't the only ones I pose this question to. Anyone who hasn't been experiencing the DPC and would like to share their settings, this Inspirion guy would greatly love to join the Alienware family. Thanks every for all your hard work and raising awareness to aid some of us new guys who are thinking of coming to the table.

 

There are ALOT of laptops out there that will do what you need with no headaches. Especially if you're willing to dish out this kind of money.

 

KCor8y - Thx for the reply, I am completely aware of that. I have always wanted an Alienware and told myself, when I got to a point when I could actually afford to buy one, I would. I look the sleek design as much as how well it games. A friend of mine has the M15 and I have been jealous for far too long! hahaha I know there are better or equal to laptops as the Alienware M17x, but if I have a chance to get this one, its probably the one I will go with. With that said, this is why I am looking for specific specs.

 

All you have to do is look at the people of your interest's signatures. Their specs are posted there. Everyone experiences DPC spikes though. And not only Alienware for sure. Now, are those spikes causing the stutter? I don't know, since I have spikes and haven't experienced any stutter (I think).

 

I promise you Spec's will not make a difference. If you're stuck on this model then so be it. But I wouldn't touch it until I was 100% sure the Latency issue was resolved. Most people that have the Latency issues real bad are Win 7 users. This system now only comes with Win 7.

I felt the same way when I saw it. it is a great looking laptop. but when your trying to get something done and it chops, freezes and lags all you want to do is throw it against the wall.

 

KC0r8y, I feel you my man! Unfortunately I know a great deal about DPC latency issues because my current laptop is riddled with it. More so with streaming video than anything else. Its horrible with youtube videos in particular. However, what seemed interesting is, when I switched to win7, its actually got much better. It use to skip or freeze every 6 to 8 seconds. Talk about annoying. Its now up to every 25 to 30 secs. Mind you when I upgraded to win7 I also boosted my memory from 1gb to 4 gbs. I wasn't sure which one actually played more of a part in that, but it definitely made it slightly more desirable. Perhaps I might sit back for a week or two and monitor the developments before making the purchase. Its either wait on this one or go with Dell Studio XPS 16 which by the time I add all the upgrades I would want, I'm paying respectability what I would be paying for a Alienware slightly above stock.

 

Best of luck with what ever you decide bud

 

I'm feeling good that Dell will address this. I've got some buggy situations in Windows 7 but I don't experience stuttering anymore - I did at one point with the Default Alienware install on the 160gb hard disk it came in (But i've since scrapped the config and am running a 128SSD/500gb HD).

I would still pull the trigger if you want dual GFX and hard disk bays. Its a good machine.

 

Ok lets get back to the latency issue instead of how to configure one. It looks like all configureations have the same latency issue, but not everyone is suffering the problems. So its a bit of a crap shoot

 

Nick - did you see a big enough improvement in the SSD to make it worth so much money?

 

Could you two please either post or PM the names of the people you spoke with? A Dell rep has asked me to inform him - because according to him, they are just now beginning to notice the problem.

 

It's the number one best upgrade you can do, and IMO adds more speed to the overall experience of the system than a processor upgrade. It's totally worth it, unleashes the hardware.

 

Wow after spending most of this morning scouring thru the different dell forums and the forums here trying to gather up as much information as I could about the m17x and then come back to read that Lord Zath really damper my spirits. Lord Zath spoke to a rep that is unaware of the problem which has gotten so widespread that it made it onto Engadget where Dell quickly had to address it before it spun out of control, you would think that they would have sat their entire AW customer service team down and got them all on the same page. Very disheartening. My brother just got his new HP dv8t Quad series laptop and is loving every minute of it. I have been with Dell for over 8 years! Buying everything from desktops, laptops, dvd players to HD Tv's and one thing that was a common thread throughout my entire experience is "Pray" you get something with no problems because their customer service is horrible. Always has been for me whenever I need to use them. (They sent my HD Tv to someone else and then had the nerve to blame me for giving them the wrong address. Funny thing is, I ordered two things from them in one order and the other thing arrived just fine with the same address. Later found out it was a shipping mistake where someone chopped off half the shipping label by mistake.) I just don't think I can go through that with a system that I make my living on. I have to go with something more reliable and doesn't force me to tweak and configure it just to use it as it was intended to be used. That really sux, I was looking forward to bring home a new Alienware!

 

I've been in weekly-biweekly contact with their upper levels of support for over two months now. (it's mostly been with Alienware Resolution Experts and their associated Engineers) I feel bad bugging them all the time... but this issue has really gone on too long and really gotten out of hand. They keep telling me they are working on it

When I first report this to them a couple of months ago... they said at that time they weren't aware of it until we brought it to their attention.

Maybe the support staff at Dell doesn’t correspond with the support staff at Alienware? (I was under the impression that Dell was letting Alienware deal with all the Alienware support)

When you dial the 800wwwdell number and enter the service tag for an AW system... it automatically transfers you to AW support.

 

Thanks. Are you working with a specific person or just random people when you call?

 

Hi,

I've been working with a number of specific people at AW. I didn't feel comfortable listing names in an on-line forum. (as I'm sure you understand

 

of course. Could you either PM me their names or your e-mail address? I'd like the dell rep to have as much information as possible. If you don't feel comfortable w/PM, I can give the rep your e-mail address to contact you directly...

 

This might be a silly question or an already answered question, but since I didn't find it, I was wondering if the 15x with the Intel Core i7 720QM 1.6GHz (2.8 GHz Turbo Mode, 6MB Cache) also experiencing the same problems or its this for the most part associated with m17x. Bear in mind that I am aware the most laptops have DPC issues to a certain extent.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOI5U2uGBQs

 

Well that is why I said "most" and used "to a certain extent" because some people have the spikes but witness no stuttering or choppy video. I was just wondering if m15x falls into that category or not. Obviously not all laptops have this problem which is evident in the XPS 1640 video demo. However I'm not looking to buy a XPS 1640 unfortunately! LOL Any thoughts?!?

 

I'll be honest up until the 8800GTX SLi died on my M1730 that laptop ran like a champ. never had an issue with anything.
I also had a couple IBM Thinkpads that worked well also.

 

Here is a video someone did with the DPC latency Checker running on a M17X. You can see all the red spikes that all of us are experiencing. If you pay attention to the audio... you can hear the crackles and dropouts in the audio. (The audio is very loud in the recording... sorry in advance!)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrfw8sH5Zog

Now only if we can get our latency too look like the video in the post two above this! (I have coppied that link and pasted it below)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOI5U2uGBQs Dell Studio XPS 16 (1640) after their bio fix for this model's latency problems....

 

That 1st one definitely looks bad. Odd though, my average is 1500 on the big bars and I get maybe one or 2 spikes in a 10 minute period that might hit the 5000 mark. Never had anything go above the 10k mark, just wow.

 

Maybe that's why the M17x is so big and heavy. Makes you think twice b4 picking it up and tossing against the wall when things go badly. Who wants a busted machine AND rotator cuff surgery?

 

Actually that's my M17x , you can notice that when i bring the wireless window up and move the mouse on it , it crackles and the latency bar goes to max

 

small update from the dell guy :


Thank you for the replies.

We have software and hardware engineers working on this. I can confidently say we are aware of your findings. We are making sure that the actual cause of the issue is the results you outlined and not some other unknown.
Basically, we want to get it right for our customers.

 

this was personally for you or all M17X owners? if hardware engineers find something how the hell are we supposed to fixed it?

 

it was for all m17x owners

 

After doing a ton of research, endless reading thru reviews and forums/messageboards, my M17x has been ordered and awaiting assembly! Ha! I just couldn't resist and they say misery loves company so if I am riddled with the problems some are experiencing, at least I will not be alone! HAHA!! Thanks to all that chipped in with the useful info! Its appreciated!

 

Did you used to be a shacknews / sugashack user?

 

No, I am afraid that I have heard of neither of them. Should I be aware of them?

 

Funny, I just noticed something interesting. When I'm at home running my old Commodore 64, er...uhh...my m7700a, my DPC latency is practically perfect. Green across the board, and well under 500.

Now that I'm at work, I've got spikes beyond 16,000. As soon as I turn the WLAN card off, however, I go back to all green. The operational difference is that while at home, I'm connected via WLAN, but at work I use ethernet.

There are visible wireless networks at work. As soon as I connect to one, bam!, green across the board again, and the latency measurements are even less than if I turn the WLAN card off, well under 500.

So in this case, it definitely seems to be caused by the WLAN adapter seeking out external wireless networks or something akin to that.

 

the m17x comes intel 5300 a/b/g/n mini 3x3 ? right

if so i installed a such card in my m17 and it just caused bsod when ever i installed the driver

 

I have tried that approach. Disabled LAN adapter in the BIOS and disabled WLAN in device manager. It had no affect on the latency.

 

the wireless is a broadcom MIMO 2x2 actually, it aint the best, but I dont have any wireless n routers so still enough for me

 

I would have been happy to sell you mine when it arrives. Dell will not let me cancel the order, and wants to charge me a 15% restocking fee if I return it within 21 days (even if I haven't opened it). I saw Amazon is selling a m15x model very similar to the one I'd want. Their return policy is far better, and the laptop could be here by next week. I suppose I can still try disputing the charges with visa and see where that takes me...

 

if you just order a difference system through dell, they will wave that restocking fee usually. You can get an M15x there and probably guilt them into some price drop or free upgrades

 

Damn Isamura! Sorry to hear that my man! Mine is already being assembled.

However, do not take the crap about the restocking fee. Just continue to escalated the situation to the next person higher up on the latter. Dell is notorious about not seeing things from a customers point of view when it comes to sells and customer service side of it. I haven't had any complaints with their hardware and software support side of the house.

The Customer Services Orders department however tried to recharge me for shipping in order snafu when I was buying my HD TV from them and it got to a point where I told them I was sending back the TV when It arrived, not paying a restocking fee, Canceling my payment, and Reporting the issue as far up the chain was humanly possible for how the situation was handled. Hung up. A day later a very cordial executive (at least I believe that is how he addressed himself) manager called me and asked me to explain what happened and actually took the time and listened and we had the problem resolved in about 20 mins. It just so happen to be an accident in the shipping department but the customer service crew couldn't have cared less until the call got escalated. If you feel you are being unjustly treated, by all means, do not sit and allow it to happen...be proactive but PROFESSIONAL, eventually you will get the right person on the phone who can help you out. Not all of the staff working for Dell's customer service is incompetent...it just seems that they are all in the first line of fire (Sorry for the ramble...Dell gets me going sometimes)

 

Leststat1124, looks like you're ordering a single HD w/your system. Please let me know if the HD caddy for the second drive is included (inside the laptop) once you get it. Thanks.

 

Agreed...they like to be a pain and play hardball but they would much rather you play hardball with them instead of taking your bat to another ballpark. I would listen to scook and try to get Topsy-Turvy on them and see what goodies you can get thrown in with it to keep your business. Again...alot has to deal with how you have on the other side of the phone. I can guarantee you that 99% of the time it isn't going to be the first person who picked up the phone. As for a manager immediately.

 

No doubt Sager! I have a friend that works for a reseller who told me he could get me SSD HD or a larger HD for much cheaper than Dell is quoting, so I just chose the smallest one and I will swap it out. So while I'm doing that, I will check and let you know!