People jack around too much

After being on this site for a month or so now, I have noticed a trend. The ones who complain about the system not performing as well as expected: weird problems, BSoDs, poor driver performance, etc.---are the same ones I read are always tweaking this and that, reinstalling this and that, applying new paste, and in general, just jacking with their Alienware. This is also the same crew that lambasts the CF 7970 configuration the most. In fact, they scared me away from it into the 680m SLI configuration. I'm wondering now after noting the correlation if I would have been plenty happy with the 7970s, because I DON'T jack around with my computers anymore. I buy the components and/or have it build to be what I want it to be. I don't under-build and then overclock and tweak. Just calling it as I see it.

Am I wrong?

 

The forum is a bad influence overall specially if you trust all you read now if you just take the positive aspect everything will be fine

This forum is to help people with fixing problems with their machines and to teach how to install new programs and drivers making your experience better but sometimes this turn in to a nightmare of "this vs that" and "that is crap" that can be really stressful for a lot of people

you may find the 7970's running perfect but then you read the forum and try something then you are unhappy and why? because you read something negative same thing with the 680's

 

I just stick to my motto:

If it isn't broke, don't fix it.

 

When researching, I always weed out both sides of extremes and concentrate on the center.

 

Nicely said wacdag "if it aint broke dont fix it." Ill say this, let them be, if they want to overclock and find their computer's true capabilities let them discus their methods, problems and etc. As far as i know according to your post you are not those people here who push their computers to the limit and just want a working computer for your needs. If so we are the same, i have the base cpu because is more than enough for the games i play and also i already have dual gpus which works fine and got better after 12.6. People situations are different, do not believe everything you see here and if it doesn't apply to you dont do whatever it is that has problems because if you do you will have problems with yours.

 

You also have to think that only the problems are usually reported on a forum. A lot of people don't come on here to say everything is fine. So for every person with a problem, I'd say there is a bunch of other people that are happy with their system.

 

No, you're pretty much spot-on.

I never have any sorts of issues on my laptops or PC's, and over the last decade there have been dozens. If there's ever been any faults it was due to a piece of hardware dying which was replaced under manufacturers warranty and quickly resolved.

I do fresh formats on everything every 6-9 months at which point i install all updated drivers from manufacturers website. Then i leave my system alone once i've set everything up and it will run flawlessly until it starts feeling sluggish 9 months down the track and the process starts all over. Once i got it set up right and it's working, i leave it as-is. If there's anything i've learnt from all my IT experience, it's that newer isn't always better. Stick to something solid and stable until you actually have a reason to upgrade and if it isn't broken then don't try to fix it.

Being on these forums has shown me that most of the time when people have issues, it's either because they tried running some BETA software or it's overclocking related or they opened up the case and bodged something up or tried installing/removing something without properly checking first. Then the minority of the time you have legitimate faulty hardware related issues or software compatibility issues.

Haha this. I just had a little chuckle to myself because the amount of times I've said this on this forum is ridiculous. It applies to both hardware software and it's always true.

 

Things you learn here:

1. A website that focuses on notebooks and their graphics must have no idea how to review either.
2. Drivers that fix most of my problems but lower my overclock my 10mhz are failures.
3. If you find a link to a blog in a German cheese wheel website, it's more accurate because my card does better in it.
4. If my card ties another in most every benchmark set, just make sure everyone knows it has better power draw. After all, we may kill nazis with the same frame rates, but at least I'm saving a tree.

 

If you think you made a bad misinformed decision please cancel your order for the dual 680s and get the 7970s! by all means please do it and when your system doesn't work as intended please by all means dont ask for help!
We wouldn't want you to join the ranks of us that "Jack around" with are systems!

Is there a chance your system will work correctly out of the box? Sure! there is! is it highly unlikely? yep! is this problem on just this forum? nope! out of all the people across all the forums that are posting about the 7970s how many have claimed that there 7970s work correctly? 2 Ive found 2 out of hundreds of posts in looking for a solution to the issues im having and others are having.. that claim they have not 1 issues with there system..

Now us people that "Jack around " with are systems Do so in the hopes that it helps people like you if you ever have a problem..
Also I take offense that you think if no one "jacked around" with there system every thing would be hunky dory and nothing would ever go wrong..

If you feel this forum scared you out of the 7970s please by all means go get a system with them! Who are we to stop you! can I say you will be happy with your system? sure!
If you like strange artifacts and weird screen flickering, ghost lines, rolling screen tearing, xfire that doesn't work, a dimmer screen that you cant adjust all the time.. your machine randomly losing the connection with you gpus and warnings popping up telling you"no amd gpu detected"

THEN YES YOU WILL BE HAPPY! but wait since most of us had these problems since ether getting are systems or having the cards installed prey tell what your issue is with us trying to figure out what is causing it?

 

Well, it's good to know our efforts are paying off.

1. Must be referring to notebookreview.com - they are sometimes way off base in their review results and have been for a couple of years. Enough so that the results should be questioned and proven independently before being accepted as factual. It is a valuable resource when facts available through other channels are corroborative.
2. Drivers that fix one or more problems and cause new or different problems aren't "good" even though they might be an improvement overall.
3. Not sure about cheese wheel blogs, LOL. Limburger?
4. I actually prefer a GPU (or any other PC component) that focuses on performance at the expense of all other factors... even if that means a few trees must die in the process. It's a sacrifice I'm willing to make in the name of performance. If I could leverage the power of ozone to gain a few 3DMarks, I would do it in a heartbeat.

 

Whoa, Haus! Haha! I'm completely content to be receiving the 680m's come what may. I get your drift, though. Overclockers and tweakers find the breaking point of equipment and this can provide a benefit for others, although I argue that that is NOT their reason for 'jacking around' as you suggest it is. I think they do it for themselves for the most part.

I strongly believe the 7970m is not what it should be because of what the overclockers and tweakers say. I'm just not so sure how much an average 'just use it' gamer would notice. (CF not working would likely get noticed) So I am glad to order the 680m's knowing that the 7970m's aren't running as they should. I just probably wouldn't have come to that conclusion on my own.

I have been through my overclocking phase on my desktop builds. I just don't anymore. I decided to just purchase parts to build a rig that was sufficient as designed.

Overclocking is an obsession for most. It's a tinkering thing. It's a benchmark thing. It really has very little to do with playing a game at an acceptable level. It's about one-upping the next guy. Being the fastest. Lot's of it is the alpha bulls of the geek world. Some of it is just personal see-what-I-can-do stuff. It's value for enjoying a game is debatable assuming you bought a computer that was capable without overclocking. If you didn't, and bought one that would only be viable overclocked, then I guess it does really matter but I would say that was a poor purchasing decision to begin with. Who can tell the difference between 45 and 52 fps (15% performance boost from overclocking)?

But hey, it takes all kinds, right?

 

Ok so you know this wasnt a personel attack or any thing,(just wanted to make that well known) but so you know when i got my cards from Dell I popped them in and waited a month to game.. during that time i had NO drivers whats so ever.. then I found the 7900mod ones. wich didnt work at all..let alone install correctly.. that kept up for awhile.. then i found 12.5 beta.. and they worked perfectly for a bit then out of the blue they quit working.. nothing changed.. they just quit working... but during this time and the time of install i get artifacts when windows loads... some times i would get this rolling bar in windows and if i started a game it would go away.. games that would fine 1 time would be totally jacked the next..

then the flashing particles came and i started getting squares in game that would flash.. in xfire and on a single card.. then the freezing started.. black screen then a restart, or picture on screen and id have to hold down the power button.. and then id start getting "no amd graphics detected" and my heart would drop.. ive done multiple installs of windows with fresh drivers.. and ive tried them all.. id go back to 12.5 beta but im to lazy now to do so.. they is no point.. between 12.5 and 12.7 the problems are the same and random at that and they make no sense whats so ever.. on how they come on or how they start.. you might be in the middle of a game and it happens.. hell you might get through a game and open some thing else and it happens.. it is so random its not funny.. then again it might do it on every thing one day.. ive had it where all day long id get error after error
and then for no reason or any thing i did it starts working.. then error out again..

wasnt trying to come off on you as a or any thing its just that there are people that have been posting things kinda like this.. that do not appreciate that we try to fix the problems so you do not have to wait months on end for dell/alienware to be able to fix the problem..(dell has a limited number of techs in house and we have a whole community that can pitch in to try and fix a problem and thats all that goes on on this forum and others..
and yes as for overclocking these cards..sure we have the right with proper drivers to know what these are capable of.. to get a true account of some good solid numbers with stock drivers..of what this card can really do..not a bs test with unsupported drivers that floating around the web..
And yea this card is flawed..its ether drivers or hardware but at this moment we cant tell because we dont have proper drivers.. once those come we can say hey yea it was just the drivers..or oh no it is a hardware problem.. But until the drivers come we just dont know..

 

You come across as a really decent person and I am confident you meant no offense to anyone by sharing what was on your mind. Conceptually, a lot of what you're saying could be a reasonable assumption from the vantage point of an observer. I have found myself thinking similar things from time to time, especially when it is one or two individuals that mess up everything they lay their hands on. I've seen a few of those folks in the Community now and then. I've known a few folks that could break a Sherman tank by doing nothing but looking at it, and I have made a lot of money fixing their computers, LOL.

The part that is not reasonable relates to the statement of assumptions that place people in a position of feeling they need to defend themselves against misinformed comments. I can vouch for it being very irritating and even discouraging when people that have not experienced a particular problem begin posting off-the-cuff remarks based on the assumption that the people having problems are causing the issues by the way their system is being used or the presumption of bad things they have done to their systems.

There are plenty of noobs out there that break things, but many of the people experiencing these problems are technical experts with many years of experience and knowledge as well as the 'just use it' group that are 'just using it' for whatever.

As far as whether you would notice, I am positive that you would notice it immediately because the black screen crashes, BSOD streaming YouTube videos, TDR errors, system freezes, DX11 module fault messages, artifacts, jittery display and pinstriped screen are pretty hard to miss regardless of one's skill or knowledge level. You made a wise purchasing decision no matter what precipitated that.

I am a skilled technician with more than 20 years of experience. I am also a cautious overclocker/bencher and these symptoms would be unacceptable if they only happened while doing what I enjoy most. I am also a gamer and don't do GPU overclocking for everyday gaming or other ordinary uses. Unfortunately, the list of issues I mentioned happen randomly while running everything stock with about the same frequency they occur when overclocked and running benchmarks.

The symptoms change slightly between driver versions and the frequency is erratic. I think my frequency of experiencing these problems may be less than what some are having, but any at all is still unacceptable. The frequency is low enough with current drivers that I have mistakenly thought my problems were resolved more than once, only to have them resurface a day or two later. It's quite sad and pathetic.

 

You "got your cards" and "popped them in". That sounds alot to me like you upgrading the cards yourself, rather than having them done by Dell, which is exactly what the OP is talking about.

I find it hard to believe that if you buy a laptop from Dell with a 7970m in it, you will receive a laptop with no video drivers and a card which does not work. I simply refuse to believe that is what is happening, and people are sitting around complaining rather than getting full refunds from Dell as they should well be entitled to.

 

I agree with alot of what DumbDumb said. If you have a machine that's causing you grief, sitting back and not even trying to do something about it is just plain crazy. The problems with the 7970m are real, not just for Alienware but for other platforms too.....saying they don't exist is like an ostrich burying its head in the sand. Are there people out there that are happy with their 7970m's - sure, probably....people will seek out advice and information on a forum for problematic situations...that's why they exist and also why you see lots of posts about "this isnt working" or "is this right" etc etc....

Also, I think it's quite a niche product - if you buy one of these machines, chances are you know a bit more than the average Joe about computers. Half the fun of owning a powerhouse is tinkering with it. I think we all try out different things with our machines....video drivers is a classic....safe to say everyone wants the best performance from their investment, some drivers may be better than others but we still test 'em out - would that be classed as "jacking around"??

As for overclocking, that's really just about taking cheaper/lower performance components and trying to get the most out of 'em....you could say its not needed to enjoy these machines but people will always want to push the boundaries of whatever they own...jusst to see what it can REALLY do - I see no harm in it if you know what you are doing.

There's probably no such thing as a computer that doesnt need anything changing about it but if you are the kinda guy that wants "plug n play" computing, I think Alienware was the wrong choice, never mind which gpu you ended up with.

Just my 2p....

 

I can appreciate the frustration some (many?) are having. However, the above comment shed some light on something that goes back to my original presumptions about 'jacking around'. It seems that the big complainers about the 7970m are the m18x R1 owners who have 'upgraded' their cards to the new 7970m. While you would think this would be okay to do, apparently its not working out that way. Maybe the card is just too new to be upgrading older machines. A new m18x R2 shipped out with the 7970m's seems to not have the same 'issues'---BSODs, black screens, artifacts, etc. and the whole randomness of it all. Is this an accurate assumption?

 

No, unfortunately it is not, because many of them have the same problems you are attributing exclusively to the experience of 2 M18x R1 upgraders with 7970M CrossFire. Assumptions are always dangerous, and this thread is a great example of that.

The trouble with a tread like this one is misguided assumptions often create tension with folks that already have more than enough justifiable tension going on without someone that lacks information insinuating their behavior is the cause of their problems. I debated with myself on whether to leave this thread open or shut it down because it really offers no value to the community at this point. It seems to only be a repository for speculation by the uninformed and rebuttal by those with first-hand experience. I don't view that as being constructive, but I also don't want to act like a member of the Gestapo.

There are far more M18x R2 and M17x R4 owners with the same issues than there are upgraders. There are M18x R2 and M17x R4 owners whose systems or GPUs, or both, have already been replaced because it seemed that they had defective 7970M GPUs. Some still don't work correctly. There are a few that have no issues, and at least one of them that has no issues now had the same or similar problems that some of us are having now before hardware was replaced. The problems with 7970M span the gamut of systems and brands. There are issues that are exclusive to CrossFire (which is par for the course and not exclusive to 7970M) and issues that plague all systems, including those competing with Alienware's product line. If you look around the forum, and beyond, you will see innumerable problem reports from owners of systems not made by Alienware. Some have come to the Alienware Community looking for solutions for their own brand and, unfortunately, there are none yet.

The M17x R3 and M18x R2 are both capable of handling 7970M and 680M flawlessly. There is nothing magical and mystical about the new systems that make them exclusively capable or well-suited for the new GPUs. To even think that suggests a dubious knowledge base, and hence the statement of assumptions. We even have M17x R2 owners with 7970M working as well as the M17x R3/R4 and M18x R1/R2. The new systems have a new chipset that is backward compatible and a couple of M18x owners have already dropped 2nd generation Extreme CPUs into their 3rd generation mobo. Those same systems have PCIe slots that are compatible with the same hardware.

The root of the problem is lack of proper drivers. The only drivers available are buggy, and until that gets fixed by AMD it will not be possible to have any meaningful troubleshooting. And because of that, having meaningful hypothetical discussion is less likely. We can serve one another best by working together to share information about what helps and what does not, and offer suggestions on what might work.

I have been in direct contact with AMD and they have stated by phone and by email that there are no drivers available at this time with full support for the chipset on the new 7970M. They recommended that I mod existing drivers, or do a forced manual installation, until they have a driver available. They also told me there was no ETA on the release of a fully functional 7970M reference driver. Their latest drivers include information that allows the package to be installed without modding, but it's still an old school driver that offers a band-aid solution for a new GPU chipset.

 

Kudos to you, Mr. Fox, for leaving this thread open. I frequent quite a few forums and one thing I will say is that it appears that threads here at this forum get shut down rather quickly...too quickly (or totally unjustified) in my opinion at times. Granted, it is not my forum...and that is simply an opinion on my part, although forums are for talking and sharing information, including facts and opinions. Of course, the rampant blind fanboy-ism exhibited by some posters on certain topics is admittedly annoying and misleading, to say the least.

Even a thread like this where there is a difference of opinion, it is good to allow constructive discussion as long as no personal attacks are taking place. Even if personal attacks are taking place, shutting down those who are doing the attacking (not the thread itself) seems more logical. Nevertheless, I do want to stress that absolutely no disrespect is intended toward anyone who, as a Mod, has made such decisions.

My point in posting (aside from applauding your decision) is that continued discussion may allow the original thesis of this thread to either be proven or disproved, whereas shutting it down would be Gestapo-like, to use your analogy, and also provide no value other than repressing any difference of opinion, which is not what a forum is for. With enough information, the OP may decide they were wrong...others may decide the OP is wrong, or we may decide there is something to that theory after all. Sharing of information in the spirit of teamwork and a genuine desire to help is key.

I'm not taking any side in the discussion itself as my machine hasn't even arrived yet (should be this Thursday according to estimated delivery date) so I have zero experience with the card and don't feel qualified to comment on that. The freedom to make assumptions and state opinions, even incorrect ones, is an integral part of all forum discussion, so long as done politely and with respect. We all need and want to have those freedoms on any forum in order for that forum to hold value. Otherwise we can just read articles and do not need a forum format at all. Thanks again!

 

Mr. Fox, I certainly don't have the experience or expertise with computers that it sounds like you have, but I wouldn't say my assumptions are dubious in nature.

New system builds **may** have newer chipsets, drivers,etc. that may make a difference in how hardware behaves, therefore, saying a newer system can handle a newer GPU better makes perfect sense from the assumption standpoint.

Also, creating tension is not something I can do, it's a reaction you and other readers have control over. I think my statement about 'jacking around' still stands--although it is not a catch-all. I am certain there are problems outside of the overclockers/tweakers realm. I just happen to think that tinkering greatly increasing the likelihood you will have problems.

Basically, unless you make a poll to see who is having trouble with 7970m cards or whether they work fine, based upon what system you own with the card, and whether you overclock/tweak, then we don't really know how many are 'new' R4 and R2 systems versus the older ones people are upgrading, and how much could be related to 'jacking' with the system. Get statistical information is the only way to change this from an assumption thread to a factual stats based reality.

I'm glad you didn't close the thread too. That would seem rather fascist-like when one side of the argument happens to be a moderator with power, to then use that power to end opposition. Good choice.

 

it seems that since I "POPPED"my cards in is now a great debate.. so let me be very clear.

1. the techs they would send out in CA are very incompetent.. they will break stuff on your machine and leave cables unplugged.. this is fact as many many people from CA have reported.. also they refuse out right to work on your machine..at least the first 3 that came buy to swap out a mother board for me did..

2. I use my laptop daily and sending it into depo is just not some thing i can do.
3.Alienware allows us the end user to perform these upgrades as most who own them are very comfortable in doing so..

4. it seems 90% of the nay sayers over the issues with the 7970s are people that do not own the system at all or the cards..

5. with out proper drivers NO one can claim the hardware does not work.. not me or Mr Fox or any one..we can assume but that is it..until we have a proper set of Drivers we will not be able to tell if the hardware is working correctly.. But if no driver are supplied I am not waiting 6 months to see if this hardware works.. because if i can not use said harware then to me it is broke on the software side of things.