Possibly found another cause of stuttering--M17

Hey!

I think I may have found another possible source/cause/fix for the stuttering issue!

From what I gather, the Core2Duo's don't support DFFS (Dynamic FSB Frequency Switching, but the Quad's do.

DFFS in case you don't know allows the processor to change the FSB to anything between 533 and 1066 when it feels like it to save power. However, I'm not sure if the bugs are worked out.

Certain states are disabled/enabled by default on ES processors that may be later reversed in OEM processors.

As I have an ES, it wasn't natively turned on, BUT I never experienced any stuttering. However, as I just experienced stuttering recently AFTER installing RMClock and manually enabling the DFFS support, I'm suspecting that this is an issue. I've noticed that when my FSB is reduced, and I unplug/plug in, it kicks back up (much like the common fix).

I'd be curious to know how many people who experience the stuttering have OEM processors vs. ES releases.

I'd also like to know if DFFS is enabled by default for the OEM CPU's. It's also entirely possible that some/all/none of the ES's have it enabled.

I started a new job this week, so I haven't had much time to test my theory, BUT I will say that I haven't had a single stuttering issue since I re-disabled DFFS, and I never had a stuttering issue before I enabled it.



IF my theory is correct, users with CPU's that have the DFFS enabled by default should encounter stuttering randomly. Users w/o the DFFS enabled and who haven't turned it on shouldn't encounter any.


If anyone has time to check it out, I do know that it can be enabled/disabled with RMClock.

EDIT: I should mention that if it's not that, it could be one of the other settings I enabled (C1E, C2E, C3E). These are all currently still enabled. If I get stuttering, I'll disable one at a time and see what happens, BUT I'm pretty sure that DFFS is the culprit.

If you get any stutters with the settings like this, also go 1 step further and uncheck C1E as well.



I'm adding this to the top to make sure people who troubleshoot see this.

Here is the link for RMClock:
http://redirectingat.com/?id=525X832&url=http://cpu.rightmark.org/download/rmclock_235_bin.exe

For Vista 64-bit users you'll need this file to replace the one installed by default:
http://redirectingat.com/?id=525X832&url=http://www.flipfire.net/download/rtcore64.zip

AND, if you actually wanna undervolt your processor to help reduce heat anyways, here's a good guide:
http://forum.notebookreview.com/showthread.php?t=235824



IF you enable DFFS with RMClock (and Click Apply at Startup, etc) it will show that it's enabled but will NOT actually be used until the computer restarts. ON the CPU-Info tab of RM-Clock it will show green if it's enabled. The same applies for when you DISABLE it. It will show greyed out in CPU Info, BUT it will not be actually deactivated until you restart the computer. Restarting RMClock will not completely activate it. Also remember that RMClock needs to be set to startup with Windows. I am NOT sure if by enabling/disabling it actually stays inactive/active unless RMClock is running.

AGAIN: Whether or not you enable or disable it, it WILL not actually be enabled disabled until you restart the computer completely REGARDLESS of what the status indicator shows.

To see if it's enabled/disabled:



In order to change the setting (THEORY is that disabling should eliminate stuttering):


BTW, I have Performance ON Demand set, so that's why my clock speed looks low.

 

Stuttering with OEM Processor (Q9000). Lessened with B10 BIOS and High Performance Power Profile. Its actually been acting nicely lately finally. Any way to check if DFFS is enabled? Do I need to DL and install RMClock?
What you describe actually makes perfect sense, as when I am stuttering the CPU Monitor in the Sidebar is pegged at 100% and going nuts but no task in task manager is actually performing more than 13% and the total is nowhere near 100%

This article seems to say all Core 2 Duo's have it though: http://www.cpu-world.com/CPUs/Core_2/TYPE-Core 2 Duo Mobile.html

 

I don't know of any other way at this point, sorry. I know that when I installed it, the box was UNchecked for me, so I checked it to enable it.

I haven't had much time to game since unchecking it, but the hour or so I did, it never switched.

I'm thinking it happens during gaming when either the CPU demand drops and the CPU tries to save power by cutting the FSB. DFFS is still fairly new and it's possible all the bugs haven't been worked out yet. Cutting the FSB would also drop the bandwidth of the video cards though, which would cause the graphical stuttering.

 

I'll also mention that MOST LIKELY trying to catch the FSB downclocking wouldn't work, as I'd assume that ALT+TABbing to CPU-Z (or whatever monitoring program) would most likely kick the FSB back up.

Does CPU-Z log FSB settings?

 

Hmmm I am also curious about this... subscribed

 

Sound like a distinct possibility Ovrclck350.

Thanks for the info.

 

Not a problem. I've just never believed it to be a heat issue 100%. There's people who run hot and don't, and people who run cool who still do.

And it only happens on the Quad's, so I don't know. I wish I had more time to test, but this new job's making me tired. I've been at home sitting on the couch playing Halo and doing NOTHING for the past 3 weeks, so I'm trying to get back into the swing of standing on my feet all day long and actually working.

But, I didn't wanna hold out this info until I had time to test. A few others might be able to try it out and see how it ends up for them.

 

hmm this is possible

i had my first couple of stutters yesterday and today, and here is the kicker it was only within first 5 mins of playing games, then went away both times.

as if starting on low fsb then kicking up for gaming...

you might have hit the nail on the head here

 

I'm with you on that one!

I too have NEVER believed it had anything to do with heat. Northbridge or otherwise. Just didn't make any sense.

 

Now I am excited even more that I have a qx9300 in the mail. Awesome find man.

We all know that with crossfire and a quad core in a laptop we dont give a flying F*** about the battery life anyway haha.

 

it's wasn't the the northbridge over heating it was the fact that it wasn't completely covered with the heatsink. and those when the temps heat up and the (or even when the fans started to spin up(i notice it at 40c)) it stuttered. we metioned it when rob41 shot his x9100 to 3.51 and run 3dmark06 and it hot 80 or 90 and he was fine. it's the size of the quads. that's why it doesn't matter the q9000, q9100, qx9300.


ok lets take the whole copper modding out and lets say it isn't the answer for it. does any one like to do some test. if so, let me know if you want to keep it here or on the quad core thread to keep everything in one place.

 

should be able to be turned off in the bios with some mods. ill look at it this weekend..

 

i just remembered that i did cover this issue but no one tested it. i'll look for it. it's a thread that i posted with pictures of rmclock.

here it is
http://forum.notebookreview.com/showthread.php?t=368282&page=20

 

MY testing's shown that it's worked, but I haven't put enough game time in yet to verify.

Mine only stutters every once in a while in games. It started after I enabled DFFS. It's stopped since I've disabled it.

Stuttered during Prototype, Shadowrun, and Halo 2 Vista.

Hasn't stuttered since I've disabled it. Remember...by default on my ES it WAS disabled. I'm not sure, but the OEM versions of the quad's my have it enabled by default. And the ES stepping probably vary, as they're intentionally enabled/disabled to help test.

 

listen to music, game and see what happens.

 

What I'm saying is that there's plenty of people w/o the copper mod who run hot and don't stutter. And while I'm not going to go through the whole Project Freeze thread, I THINK I recall plenty of people WITH the copper mod, and who run cool who still stutter.

We need to start off by finding out for those who stutter what version CPU they have and if DFFS is enabled by default AND the same for those who don't.

 

I have been. Hasn't stuttered since. But I only had it stutter a few times anyways, so I'm not going to say 100% it's gone, but I've put about 2 hrs of gaming on and not one stutter.

 

you know me

hellcry wasn't copper modded and was fine for about 1 month. then he used silver and it didn't work. oem qx9300

halogod stuttered and then he copper modded and was fine. es qx9300

omega shockwave was stuttering then use a fresh thermal pad on the NB and was perfectly fine for about one week then he gave up. oem qx9300

zfactor stuttered and used a copper mod and he was perfectly fine. qx9300

some people tried and fail but i can't remember everyone.

everyone is in the quad core problem thread.

 

I'm adding this to the top to make sure people who troubleshoot see this.

IF you enable DFFS with RMClock (and Click Apply at Startup, etc) it will show that it's enabled but will NOT actually be used until the computer restarts. ON the CPU-Info tab of RM-Clock it will show green if it's enabled. The same applies for when you DISABLE it. It will show greyed out in CPU Info, BUT it will not be actually deactivated until you restart the computer. Restarting RMClock will not completely activate it.

AGAIN: Whether or not you enable or disable it, it WILL not actually be enabled disabled until you restart the computer completely REGARDLESS of what the status indicator shows.

 

On the article thing, I've seen articles saying the same, BUT I've also seen feature listings of the Core2Duo's leaving it out, and the Quad's with it included...so I don't know for sure, but at this point anything's worth trying. Also, the funny thing is, according to Everest, my P8400 supported DFSS, and the QX9200 doesn't, but it activates, and I've SEEN the FSB switch when it is activated. So I don't know, Everest also reports my FSB as running at 325 instead of 266.

Put a "How To" above and yes, you do need to install it. I gave links above.

 

OK, I just spent an hour playing Shadowrun, and an hour playing Prototype so far tonight for testing.

THere was one point where it stuttered a bit and went away, but I don't know if it was THE stuttering, or lag or what, but in any case, I disabled C1E as well, just in case.

Haven't stuttered at all (other than that one point mentioned above) since disabling DFFS (and C1E).

 

i never disabled c1e when i was messing with rmclock i have rebooted though. can marvie try this as well.

 

I will also test this as soon as I got my qx9300 in.

It can't get here soon enough!

 

Hmm I will try to look at it tonight after work see if it does anything to me

 

I'll pull RMClock down and see what my default is set to. I can also try putting the laptop back in Balanced profile to see if my stuttering is there again, but quite frankly I haven't seen it since I flashed back from B14 to B10 with the exception of "minor" sound glitches (quick scratchyness). I also have my x9100 arriving any day now.

 

My RMClock Settings Screens. I made no changes, just installed RMClock and took snapshots.

Interesting side note: I just fired up my machine, downloaded and installed RMClock to take the screenshots. As I was doing so the processor in my CPU sidebar gadget was going nuts up and down (the typical stuttering issue I've experienced in the past). Related? Beats me, except that as of late I'd thought it was gone.

 

Okay, I have a quad. I just installed America's Army 3 and it stutters like absolute crazy on basic training. I'll have a go at this and report back with results.

Rep to topic creator.


EDIT: Checked RMClock and found my settings did not save between reboots. Shall attempt again.

EDIT: RMClock settings still not saved between reboots. Any suggestions?

- F

 

as don said though with it enabled and the copper shim applied it ran fine for a lot of people. im not sure this is the only cause or if it simply adds to the problem at hand already. i can prob set it to auto disabled in the bios but it may or may not fix the issues altogether without the shim..i know it didnt for me

 

Marvie, it seems that yours is disabled by default. Do you have OEM or ES? Which processor.

BTW, if your CPU meter is going up/down, that doesn't seem to be stuttering, or at least the type I get. That'd just be odd processor usage (wide variety of causes) due to a program or file. I notice Windows Update does that to me sometimes.

 

PM me what settings you're trying to enable/disable.

Are you making sure "Apply these settings at startup" is checked? Do you have "Run at Windows Startup" checked in the Settings Menu?

Could you also tell us what version CPU you have AND what boxes were checked/unchecked when you first ran the program (C1E, etc).

 

My Q9000 was factory installed. I just put my x9100 in today though, so I won't be able to give you anymore data then I already have.

P.S. Runs smooth as butter now!

 

BTW, my sound hasn't stuttered usually when my stuttering did happen...but I did the Sleep Issue Fix.

 

q 9100 owner here..

enabled C1E, C2E, C3E (all disabled default)
enabled DFFS (disabled default)

testing now i will write results.

 

got my qx9300 and it did began to stutter during 3dMark06 run - sound on background music playing got choppy and FPS in the benchmark tanked. The run finished at 13.1K with Qx9300 @ 3GHz on 3870x2...DAM STUTTERING

Tried playing around with RMclock, never saw it report DFFS any different regardless of what I did (including reboots)

Any progress on a BIOS that handles this for us zFactor?

 

This excerpt is from flipfire's undervolting guide:

RMclock offers different power profiles. The Maximal Performance is profile allows you to choose only 1 multiplier which will be locked at that multiplier/clockspeed.

This profile is great for gamers, certain scenarios where full cpu is needed and people having issues with Speedstep not switching properly. I only recommend using this profile when the notebook is plugged into the AC adapter because it will increase the drain on your battery.

Locking the CPU will reduce the small throttle lag you get from the usual dynamic multiplier switching. It improved my PCMark05 points when i locked it to full speed.

To lock the CPU to full speed:
i) Go to the Maximal Performance Sub-profile page
- Tick 'Use P-State Transition'
- Tick the multiplier you want to lock the speed at (Choose the highest index #)
- Click Apply
ii) Go to the Main Profile Page
- Select the Maximal Performance on the drop down boxes for AC Power Current and Startup
- Click Apply

If successful, you should notice the RMclock wheel icon in the system tray turn completely red. This signifies the speed is locked to maximum speed.

This configuration will only lock the CPU when you are on AC power. When it is unplugged, it will change to dynamic switching (Speedstep) for improved power consumption. You can also choose to underclock the CPU when using the battery for longer battery times.

Since you guys have RMclock, have you given this a try?

 

I still haven't had any stuttering since. Oh well, back to the drawing board.

I still don't think it's a heat issue though. I REALLY wish that we'd have tracked those who DID/DO have stuttering by their CPU Version and revision to see if there's any commonality or difference between them and those who don't.

Plust I think a lot of people's definition of stuttering differs greatly. I highly doubt that ALL of the issues were hardware related.

 

For me stuttering meant frame rates tanked, video was choppy, sound was choppy. Was during 3dMark06 so couldnt check mouse. And I got QGNG ES QX9300.

 

Q9100 testing report.
BIOS B14, DFFS enabled: now the stuttering is gone, so far.

 

best results with

enabled C1E, C2E, C3E
disabled DFFS

no stuttering.

 

run 3dmark06 or vantage with music in the background.

 

ok i will test it too..

 

run it 3 times (successively) and with media player (with music) no lag no stuttering no sound problem at all..

wow

os : windows 7 64 bit.

 

Were you stuttering before?

 

yes ofcourse , specially when i play the games on fullscreen mode. today i played 3 hours city of villains in fullscreen with full quality and no stuttering..

now i resetted the laptop and test it with 3dmark again and music in the background.

i heard little scratchy music in the beginning and i pull the power cable out and plugged it in again and fixed... test finished w/o any problems again. w/o your trick my laptop never worked like this. always had problems with sound and fullscreen gaming.

thank you.

 

Well, I'm certainly glad I could help

 

today i tested it w/o rightmark cpu utility. and same results w/o it beginning of the 3dmark test, i heard little laggy sound and pull it out the power cable and plugged it again and it is fixed. after that there is no problem at all..

i think only solution for the stutter is plug out the power cable and plugged in again.

i am not using realtek sound drivers. using win 7 drivers.

 

This is a brilliant find. I'm going to try it out now, and come back with the results. I rarely suffer from stuttering anymore, but to remove it altogether would be brilliant.

edit: Hmm, it's already off for me. Maybe that's why my stuttering is so rare...

I've just had a brainwave. Maybe the reduced stuttering in the B14 BIOS is because this feature is disabled in it...(if it's possible to do so in the BIOS, I've no idea about that)

 

Mine was disabled in B10 when I provided my screenshot earlier in this thread. My stuttering started in B10, was lessened by High Performance Profile, then Came back in full force with B14 no matter what profile it was in. I went back to B10, and then later replaced my Q9000 with a Dual-core X9100. No more stuttering for me

 

now played flight simulator X with ultra settings witt aa, stutter w/o rmclock.

with rmclock it is fine..

my settings are :

disabled C1E, C2E, C3E
disabled DFFS
maximal performance profile
unchecked use os load based management.

 

always keep it on high performance in windows, otherwise the cpu will throttle and cause issues in some games....going from 1.6ghz to 3.2 and sometimes going back down in less cpu intensive games will give you the quick stuttering and sound lag