Ask the hybrid osx/windows expert!

Updated

"I game a little bit, so I plan on having XP Pro on my mac also, would you happen to game at all? If so, do games run well on the macbook pro?"

i tried to run quake 4 in osx, and it was performing poorly, and it didnt matter if i was in 640x480 or 1440x900, or what settings i used. it was the same, hitching and wonky. i'm going to assume it was trying to access the hdd to load stuff every 2 seconds, but i have 2 gigs of ram and that shouldn't happen (everything should be loaded into ram before the game starts).

So osx gaming is a little off at the moment. this will likely be remedied eventually, but not today.

i have xp pro on my machine, just for reference:

source based games can't really scratch the mbp. hl2 and counter strike source, i run in 1440x900 with all settings maxed and anti aliasing and aniso filter, and it runs way over 60 frames per second. i stop counting at that point.

the doom 3 engine games like doom 3 and quake 4 and prey also run without a hitch with all settings maxed (except a few "ultra" quality texture settings that specifically say they use 512 megs of video ram, which i leave off and haven't tried) its not something you will probably benefit from in 1440x900 anyway- those ultra high resolution textures are more for those 1920x1200 or higher screen resolutions. but i know performance will take a dive because the thing will have to start sharing system ram to cache textures. blegh. either way, quake 4 and doom 3 run really fast.

FEAR has its own engine and runs really well. 1440x900 and most settings maxed out. sometimes i like to leave off some of the highest settings to improve framerate when playing online. FEAR usually hovers closer to 40-50 fps indoors, it drops to just above 30 for outdoors, and then in weird situations where you can see a large portion of both an indoor and outdoor environment, the fps drop to under 20 (if you are inside, looking outside through a door or window, and you can see a significant amount of both areas)

unfortunately, the only Unreal Engine 3 game i had a chance to try didn't run very well, and that was Rainbow Six Vegas, but i heard that game was a horrible unoptimized port of the xbox360 version. the fact that lowering the resolution didn't help confirmed my suspicion. i think ut3 and other unreal engine 3 games will end up running MUCH better.

I also have a feeling like crysis is going to run very well, but i have absolutely nothing to base that on.

i use osx for everything else at the moment. to me, its nicer on the eyes, and i feel like it is harder to break. you will get used to osx pretty quickly- its a lot sleeker than xp and deciding to reformat every few months is not necessary.

"I really want the more expensive system for the 256 meg video card, but $2499 is outside of my budget. What can I do?"

You can take advantage of the system, of course. A student discount earns you $200 off of the price of the macbook pro. They also throw in a free ipod ($200) and a free printer ($100) should you choose to purchase them as well. Those items are rebate items. Should you then choose to sell them, you can save up to $500 in total discounts off of the starting price of the macbook pro. This is pretty enticing and might be enough to validate the machine with the better graphics card, or to bring the low end macbook pro into your budget.

"Can I use open office in osx?"

While I am obligated to inform you that you can, in fact, run open office on your mac, I feel as though I have a deeper, God/nature inspired obligation to inform you of the availability of neo office (which is basically open office rewritten for osx)

Open office currently runs via a java client, which means it is VERY unoptimized for osx. But it is an office suite. You probably aren't pushing your system to its limits by typing words...

you can expect a native osx version of open office eventually, with increased demand for apple hardware.

"What program did you use to run XP Pro: Boot Camp or Parallels, or maybe even Crossover Mac? I read somewhere that gaming with Boot Camp is better than Parallels because its practically a PC when you only have 1 OS running at a time, so I'm probably going to just use boot camp, but having your perspective on this would be awesome to know because you've been through the process."

Boot camp is the only solution right now if your intention is to play advanced 3d games. This means that you will have to reboot to play games in windows, or just spend your time in windows. Personally i prefer the former. Playing games in osx would be much more elegant, but they just aren't there yet. Simple as that. Definitely having xp run inside of osx won't be as efficient as just running xp natively, but they have a lot of hardware support to accomplish before that becomes the limiting factor. A lot of people have good things to say about vmware/parallels. i had limited success with those solutions, but i had some stability issues. It is possible to have one partition that you can utilize with both parallels and bootcamp, I might add. i haven't gotten ANYTHING to run on crossover- not even the supported applications... currently all of my xp activity is done inside of boot camp exclusively.

"If you used boot camp, was it hard to install XP? Also, how many GB's do you want on the partition?"

The whole point of boot camp is to make the un-elegant process of formatting, partitioning, rebooting, etc. as painless as possible. I would say that boot camp is almost entirely successful in that endeavor. In fact, you will have xp up and running in boot camp faster than you normally would with no "badware," as i will call it, that you get with a Dell, for example (you have to give up an hour of your life to reformat the machine upon its arrival). You don't have to hunt for drivers as I have had to in the past- they are all provided from one central location. Its very nice. The only gripes I have with it are that if you reformat osx with a boot camp partition still around, strange things happen. Also- when installing xp - you have the opportunity to destroy your osx partition should you make a series of unfortunate mistakes. Its pretty fool-proof, but I still feel like boot camp should somehow override the partition manager that comes up when installing windows and just skip that screen.

Still- it works perfectly and my complaints with boot camp are trivial at best.

before you actually install windows, you will get to choose the size of the partition and the file system - either fat32 or ntfs. I set my partition to about 60 gigs for xp and left about 80 gigs for osx. you might want to consider only allocating 32 gigs for xp and choosing the fat32 file system instead of ntfs. that way you can write to the windows hard drive from osx, if that appeals to you. However, the fat32 file system has some weird limitations and I didn't want to deal with those compromises just to be able to write to the windows disk from within osx.

"does the external dvd drive - Lite-On SHW-160P6SU - (or any other external drive) allow me to use upgrade versions of windows with boot camp?"

as far as i can tell- it will. that little button on the bottom right hand corner of the face of the machine suggests that the cd tray open/close feature is handled within the hardware. the problem with the apple drive is that the eject key is handled in software (which isn't available during the xp installation). you will obviously need the right cd's to install the upgrade version as you normally would with any pc. The LG GSA-E10L will work the same way. It just needs to be able to eject cd's on its own.

"When using bootcamp is there a limit to how many partitions you can create?"

Yes. Boot camp will only let you work with two partitions. However, that does not stop you from partitioning your disk with other tools and using several different operating systems on your laptop.

"Can you boot a Macbook Pro from a usb hard drive / disk?"

Short answer is Yes, but it is not neccessarily simple. honestly i dont know enough about it. it definitely can be done, but you can't use one usb drive for a full trio of ppc macs, intel macs, and windows machines... it has something to do with the new partitioning table and EFI. You could research GPT if you want more info.

"How hard is it to upgrade the hard disk?"

Moderately difficult. http://blogs.zdnet.com/Apple/?p=325

Short answer is Yes, but it is not neccessarily simple. honestly i dont know enough about it. it definitely can be done, but you can't use one usb drive for a full trio of ppc macs, intel macs, and windows machines... it has something to do with the new partitioning table and EFI. You could research GPT if you want more info.

"How does information sharing between OSX and XP/Vista work?"

osx uses a file system called HFS+. windows uses either ntfs or fat32. you get to make that choice when you install windows.

osx can read and write to both HFS+ and fat32. it can also read ntfs.

windows can read and write to both fat32 and ntfs, but it cannot read HFS+.

so, from within windows, you will only be able to access the windows environment. within osx, you will be able to access all of your data, at a minimum. if you use the fat32 filesystem for your windows installation, you will be able to write information onto the windows drive from osx as well.

fat32 would be an easy choice for the windows file system, except it has some limitations: namely- you the whole fat32 drive is limited to 32 gigs. secondly- it can't hold individual files larger than about 4 gigs. if those limitations wont affect you, go for fat32.

Just for clarification- from within windows you will not even be able to see the osx drive.

if set up the windows drive in fat32, you could take a picture and put it on your windows partition. then you could open up osx and fix the red eye. you could choose to save the new, fixed picture on your osx drive, or back where you found it on windows, or both. you could then boot back into windows and see the updated picture with red eye removed.

if you set up the windows drive in ntfs, you could take a picture and put it onto your windows partition. you could open up osx and fix the red eye. you could even save the new picture- but only to your osx drive. you will not be able to see the work you did when you go back to windows.

Is there any way at all to make osx and windows play nicer with file sharing, and if possible, without suffering with the inherent limitations of fat32?

Yes. There are third party tools that you can use to get around the inability of each operating system to work nicely with the other.
Using a tool called macdrive will allow the windows environment to read and write HFS+.

Also: "various tools do exist for writing to ntfs from inside os x. parallels 3 can do this. so can ntfs-3g, which is free, but slow. and so can macfuse, which is backed by google, alot quicker than ntfs-3g, and also free." (courtesy of diver dan, dont worry, i upped his rep)

"How does a macbook with xp compare to any other pc with xp?"

xp on an apple computer is the same as xp on any other laptop. both performance and stability are exactly equivalent.

as far as functionality, the only problems are some drivers that could use a little effort. the following problems will likely be resolved in the final version of boot camp:

- wonky trackpad. besides questionable response to input in general, a lot of the features that make the trackpad very useful in osx aren't available in windows. this is not due to windows being sub par to osx. it is entirely due to an incomplete effort on apple's part to finish the driver. (no blame to apple- this is still beta). using an external mouse is very useful in windows at the moemnt.

- some battery conservation features aren't avaiable yet. specifically, the battery that lasts a good 4.5+ hours in osx now only lasts about 3-3.5 hours in xp. this is because the processor isn't idling properly. its not a big deal if you are plugged in, but it is a big deal if you are a road warrior. it also makes the machine run hotter in windows. you can counteract this by running smc fan control in osx and rebooting into windows (it will keep the fan settings as you chose them in osx)

all the other drivers work perfectly in boot camp as far as i have seen. any windows program (games included) will run just as fast on the mac as they would on any other equally-well-equipped windows laptop.

"can you get 800mhz memory to match the 800mhz fsb for the macbook pro?"

800 mhz ram isnt supported by the chipset. setting up your 667mhz memory in pairs will activate "dual channel mode" - long story short, two 667 mhz ram modules are enough to use the machine to its full potential (they will be able to saturate an 800mhz bus).

"Hey, have you been a mac user all your life?"

Nope. In fact, I never even considered transitioning to mac until they released intel hardware. I've been on windows since win95. Good ole' days. At any rate- i just made the switch.

If you want a comprehensive review of the 2.4ghz macbook pro (obviously focusing mostly on the hardware differences between the 2.2ghz version, benchmarks, etc) please say so! shout loud enough and nbr might sponsor me to do it.

 

Oh this I just can't resist.

I'm looking to run OpenOffice, specifically OpenOffice, nothing else because my company wants us all in the same software to guarantee accuracy and ease of compatibility.

Can this be done? OpenOffice.org tells me its only available for Windows and Linux distros.

 

My first computer was an Atari 800... lol

Then I used an Apple IIe, a 286 DOS machine, and... oh god... that's sad...

 

Open Office works on Macs. You might still need X11, you might not.

Look up NeoOffice. I think it's OpenOffice without the need for X11 or a Java rewrite or something, I don't feel like looking it up right now.

 

Count, I think you missed it. I wanted him to answer that.


And yes I know. But thanks anyway... gah ... now I have to think of something else.

 

you definitely can run open office in osx, but it uses a java client, which means it runs at java speed. think coffee pot.

so it will work, but if you have some distaste for the fact that it isnt written specifically for osx, then you can check out neo office instead.

but open office will work.

http://porting.openoffice.org/mac/download/x11.html

 

oh. testing me i see?

you can try me again.

dirty dirty.

 

Masterchef, thanks for making the thread (I'm the one asking the questions, it was an earlier PM). I knew about the student discount, and I think I'm gonna go with the 2.4 Ghz MBP instead of the 2.2 (also with 256 Vram instead of 128 Vram). But I still havn't made my final decision yet . I'm trying to think of more questions, but they arn't coming to me yet, but when I do, I'll just post them up here.

 

sure- that way, if im not around nicholie (evil) can answer questions for you, or anyone else who knows their way aboot both os'es.

 

I can see me and the Chef here having a relationship similar to that of Steve Carrell and Steven Colbert on their Daily Show bit known as "Even Stevens"

See here.

 

2 Questions:

1) When your gaming with bootcamp or even just doing stuff on the desktop, do you notice any glitches or anything that you have noticed that they will improve in their non-beta version which comes out in October?

2) Also, when I was at the mac store today, they had a computer that had Parallels, so I went to XP Pro for a second, and I noticed that it was actually a tiny bit blurry on the eyes. If you put a computer with XP Pro, and a mac with XP Pro, and put them side by side, would you be able to notice any differences?

 

1) BootCamp is by far the most stable "beta" I've ever seen. In fact i'd say the only reason it still has the beta tag is so it can be sold with Leopard, an incentive for people to upgrade as the beta will be discontinued. I doubt they're will be very many improvements between now and October as we saw the "fast-switching" rumor debunked recently.

2) Partially the reason you might have saw XP rough on the eyes was due to the fact Parallels runs it in virtualization, a machine inside a machine concept. Or it could have been that particular setup. Putting them side by side visually shouldn't normally be any different, but of course performance on the native machine would be significantly better.


bruahahaha.... chef eat that.


Edit :: I see your post as bloated and as inefficient as a new bought computer forced to run Windows ME, Chef. Also, I don't have a peaceful side.

 

1) not at all. basically, boot camp has fulfilled its job once you see the windows loading screen. boot camp's job is to emulate the bios, which doesn't effect performance once windows is up and running. its a perfect native running windows. there wont be any glitches (that aren't a problem/flaw with windows itself)

however, we might get better drivers as time goes by, which i guess you could say are a part of boot camp. better drivers, especially for the graphics card, are pretty much guarunteed to improve performance. but there is nothing weird going on with windows, and performance is already comparable to other laptops with an 8600m gt.

2) Some people have been talking about a weird blurryness that seems to occur only in macbook pro systems and - this is the really strange part - it only occurs within osx and it goes away when you boot into windows. this might be a software problem within osx, which i would expect apple to remedy eventually.

however, xp on a mac is equal to xp on any other pc. the thing you mentioned above was a specific glitch in osx that doesn't have anything to do with parallels that seems to affect some laptops.

the only other difference is a slightly different keyboard layout- a key labeled "delete" is actually the backspace key. the ctrl-alt-del function still works as expected, and a fn-delete will perform a delete command.

edit: you missed a lot of details, especially on the second part. i think i win. w00t. (id say we are more like red vs. blue.)

but i don't want to fight you! deep down, you know, im peaceful.

 

Hows the battery life in Windows?

 

about 3 1/2 hours in windows, i usually get 4 1/2+ in osx.

thats just my personal experience, obviously those numbers will vary with usage.

 

Say I'm pimpin' it, and like, BAM!, I want to rock it...

Can I run Win98ME in Boot Camp?

 

nope. nice try though, count emerill. xp pro and vista only.

err, rather any version of xp or vista. home is fine; its basically the same thing.

you need to have sp2 on the disk though for xp.

 

This is a good thing.

To further clarify, you need a full retail copy, not an upgrade, as well as SP2.

 

Legally, thats correct.

 

is there actually a legal problem with using an upgrade version of xp with boot camp? i had assumed it was merely logistical. im sure that has to be the case.

if you are implying that you could come up with a full retail copy by a means other than purchasing it- then you face a moral conundrum of epic proportions.

 

I'm not implying that I could do anything. I'm a just an old gramps afterall..


Ya darn kids and your lights, uh hip hop boobity bop shipow! Get off my lawn!

 

i just wanted to use the word conundrum!

 

More Boot Camp questions:

1. 64-bit vista compatibility?

2. When you say there's a problem with using upgrade disks, you're referring to using them via some sort of workaround to install a full retail version right? Would there be any problems if I actually have a full version of say, Vista Home and decide to use the Windows Anytime Upgrade thing to Ultimate?

 

To add to taelrak's quesetion, is bootcamp compatible with XP Pro X64?

 

you can go through the install process with a 64 bit operating system, but apple hasn't put out any 64 bit drivers yet. a lot of things will not work correctly.

stick with 32 bit versions of xp and vista for now.

the only reason you can't use an upgrade version is that before installing the os, its going to ask you for your original disk; unfortunately the eject key on the mbp works through software... its just another key on the keyboard and doesn't have direct access to the dvd drive. so its not going to work until you have actually installed windows and the proper drivers. if you can get an external dvd drive you could probably do it.

 

I didn't even know they had a 64-bit version of XP?!?!?!

 

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/products/windowsvista/buyorupgrade/windowsanytimeupgrade/faq.mspx

Hrm, maybe I'm misinterpreting this, but this means that retail versions of Vista will have all editions inside it, just unlockable depending on your product key? This would mean my original disk and upgrade disk are one and the same? Or am I way off?

 

yeah- i see the windows upgrade anytime feature is done within windows- that should work just fine.

basically, you pay to unlock the features after you have already done a full install of vista premium or whatever. that should work just fine. literally the only problem was installing windows using an upgrade disk specifically because its impossible to prove to the windows installer that you have the other disk when you cant swap cds around. i hope that makes sense?

 

Leave it to Microsoft to find a way to sell you something and then tell you you only paid for a part of a license for part of a product

 

basically- my understanding is that the retail versions of vista each contain only the features they support. if you upgrade to ultimate, for example, then the extra features will be downloaded and added to your current vista installation.

im pretty sure that is right. in the future, when you reformat- you will still install home premium, then download the extra features of ultimate after installation.

you might be able to get them to send you the correct dvd though.

 

i just ordered my macbook pro today since all the stores in my area are out of stock for a while

i bought a dell desktop for the house recently... and it came with that free vista upgrade. would it be possible to use that in a mac using bootcamp or do i need to buy another copy of vista?

 

ok.

boot camp involves basically installing windows, and THEN installing the proper drivers (you do that from within windows, after it has installed)

you have to have the drivers already installed before you can eject a cd or dvd from the slot loading drive. these drivers are installed AFTER windows is installed.

so when you go to install windows, if its going to ask you to "verify your other windows cd" or whatever, then you are in trouble, because there is no way to get the vista dvd out of the drive at that point.

you can probably work around that by using an external dvd drive.

so: "if your free upgrade to vista" means they ship you the standard oem vista dvd and change your key to work with vista instead of xp, you are fine.

if they ship you the upgrade version of vista which requires you to provide the original xp cd, then you are in trouble.

 

What are the limitations of FAT32?
and
Do you ever find yourself needing to transfer something from your OSX side to your Windows Side and how do you get around this?

 

i just have the one question and bootcamp:

do think they will fully support the use of the trackpad in windows in the final release of bootcamp? (eg tap-clicking and accidental touches on the trackpad, like in OSX)

 

yeah- i think they most likely will.

 

I read somewhere that you can get around the upgrade CD issue by point it to itself to validate. Can someone verify?

 

Except for the fact that you will be breaking the license agreement.

They are all on the DVD. What you download is a small file that tells the disc to unlock them.

And for all of those trying to find ways around the need for a full version of Windows, stop. You are not upgrading, so you have to pay for a full version. Don't try to get something for nothing.

 

i dont think you understand.

the upgrade version of windows (be it xp, vista, etc)

is intended for those you have a license with the previous version of windows. so if you own an xp license (and can prove it with the cd- oem is fine) then you are entitled to use the upgrade version of vista. the only problem is that this process involves swapping some cd's around before installing windows. the macbook pro hardware doesn't work quite right at that point.

apple could care less which version of xp or vista you install as long as it is 32 bit. the upgrade version is no different. it just checks that you have the disk for the prior windows version before it installs.

when i mentioned the "free upgrade to vista dvd" that was a reference to some manufacturers who handed out coupons to upgrade your OS license from XP to vista right before vista came out. it is a totally legitimate thing.

thanks for the update on the vista dvd info. i was not sure about that.

 

I can comment briefly on he XP upgrade scenario that manufacturers took under. Having a host of computers (3 in the family) that qualified, I must say it was the most painstakingly long process ever.

It sucked. Major. I got my discs two weeks ago... I placed the order in January. Terrible, terrible terrible. The only thing I could imagine worse would be the driver issues i'm preparing to have when I get around to doing it.

 

I could not find anything in the license about only upgrading the system that the current version is on (didn't look too hard), but I did find this:

Basically it is saying the same thing. Once you upgrade, you aren't supposed to use the old software anymore. Now granted, they won't stop you, and you can debate the ethics of it, but if you do not have Windows already on your MBP, you probably do not have the right to use an upgrade license. It just irritates me when people try to skirt the system for something they do not deserve.

 

ok well- if you have been buying apple computers all of your life, and you don't own a copy of xp, the upgrade edition is not for you.

I haven't heard of anyone trying to get around that- but obviously that would be wrong.

I have heard a TON of people trying to install the upgrade edition of vista for use on their macbook pro. The problem is NOT that they do not have a valid license for xp. The problem is that the hardware that windows uses to validate the upgrade license doesn't work properly until AFTER windows is installed. I think that is why the problem is so widespread and has nothing to do with people trying to beat microsoft.

if you have been buying windows computers all of your life, you probably do own xp. it has been around for YEARS. i don't think that is the problem.

i own a copy of xp. if i were to buy vista, i would buy the upgrade edition and find a way to make it work with boot camp. i see no problem there. i BOUGHT a copy of xp a long time ago.

 

You know, I once had the version 2003 edition of a program on my desktop. Then I updated with the 2004 upgrade version via an online download. Then the 2005 upgrade version the same way. Then the 2006 upgrade version as well. Then in 2007 I was forced to recover my computer...

Anyway, back on topic, is there a way to virtualize OSX while running Boot Camp Windows?

 

i wonder if you can virtualize windows inside of an osx virtualization INSIDE of windows using boot camp?

hmm...

dude WHY would you want to do that...

you have stumped me.

i think there is a legal problem with that, which is why there is no commercial solution available.

i remember the osx86 project, but that had pretty limited success at best. and that was just trying to get osx to run- virtualization is harder.

 

Why not? If I happen to be in Windows and want to open an OSX file really fast and I'm too lazy to reboot into OSX.

There are just as many reasons to virtualize OSX inside Windows as there are to virtualize Windows inside OSX if you're going to go that route

 

i guess so.

wow the whole virtualization game just became ridiculous to me.

operating system should just work. with everything. thank you, steve, for getting EA support. finally.

anyway. http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/runningmacpc/

that isn't exactly optimal, but it should work at least.

my personal goal was to minimize my time in the windows environment. i guess thats why it doesn't make sense to me. im just trying to keep windows clean so my games will run fast and that is all i do in windows. osx is for everything else, so i dont need to emulate osx.

 

I have a full retail original XP disk (original release back in 2001). Will this work with boot camp?

 

Probably not. It's needs to already have SP2 on it.

 

Hey guys, this is a question I asked over at the macrumors forums.

I am very close to purchasing a new MacBook Pro and plan on using Bootcamp to install XP Professional at some point. I already own the Professional disk, but it is an upgrade version, and that does not work. After hunting around, I learned that the only reason the upgrade version does not work is because the disk can not be ejected at the "Insert Full Windows 98 CD" step. People reported that hooking up an external CD/DVD drive and placing the Windows 98 CD in that solved the issue. So, I purchased an external drive off of NewEgg, but I am not positive it will work with my MacBook Pro. To be clear, I do not need any of the software functionality or special button functions, all I need it to do is read the 98 disk. One poster claimed that an ancient (circa 1998) USB 1.1 CD drive actually worked, so I'm hopeful my new one will too.

Here is the drive: Lite-On SHW-160P6SU

Common sense tells me this will work without any issues, but I just wanted to check with you guys first.



EDIT: Decided not to get the previously mentioned drive. Instead, I went with this LG GSA-E10L because a reviewer actually used it in OS X without needing to install any software or drivers.

 

I have 3 questions

When using bootcamp is there a limit to how many partitions you can create? Can I create 5 or more? OSX, WinXP, Linux1, Linux2, Data?

Also is it hard to upgrade the hard disk yourself? Upgrading the ram is really easy found the info on apple.com but what about the hard disk?

Also can the Macbook pro boot from USB hard disks and USB sticks?

 

I'm considering getting a macbook for a trip around the world. I already have Photoshop CS2 (2nd hand copy) for Windows, and I'll be doing a lot of photo editing. I'll also be accessing my photos for iLife apps. My question is this: Will I be able to conveniently view and edit all of my photos (+ music, videos, documents, etc. for that matter) irrespective of which OS I boot to, or will I need to upload all of my photos once in XP, and then again in OS-X, wasting 2x the hard drive space.

Also, what is your overall functionality opinion of an XP equipped Macbook vs. a regular PC laptop (eg. Dell m1330)?

Thanks