Brand NEW 17" Santa Rosa MBP Thermal Paste Nightmare!

Let me start by saying I just bought a brand new, less than a week ago, (from the Apple Store) 17" Santa Rosa MBP with the hi res screen (matte), 160GB 7200 RPM HD, 2.4Ghz CPU and the 256MB 8600 GT. For some more background I am a system administrator and a PC tech so I know what I'm doing with computers (most of the time anyway ). Anyhow, after getting my MBP and installing Vista on it via bootcamp and thoroughly enjoying the dual booting, I notice the thing runs hot. Ok, I do some google'ing and find the various thermal paste horror stories floating around. In windows (I've been spending more time in windows since I got it) I notice that it is IDLING at ~ 53-60C!!! I think perhaps this is not right, something may be wrong with the temp monitor software I use? Well, I use several, one of which is Intel softare called Intel Thermal Analysis Tool that monitors the DTS (Digital Thermal Sensor) in each core, it also will load the pants out of an Intel CPU - ~ 20% higher load than Intel's specified TDC. So for living with the heat for almost a week I decide I must bust the machine open, remove the logic board (mother board for you non apple folk) and see what kind of thermal paste job is in there.

Let me say that removing the logic board from these machines IS NOT FOR THE FAINT OF HEART!!! It scared the #@#$%$ out of me a few times! I took my time and marked where every last screw went and every cable, even the yellow tape. Once I had the board out and turned it over (the CPU, NB and GPU face DOWN so they can't be seen unless you remove the logic board) the sight was HORRIFIC!!! In my professional opinion they used about 40x too much paste, yes I said FORTY TIMES! All thermal paste is supposed to do is fill the micro groves and pits in the heatsink so VERY LITTLE IS NEEDED! Too much is worse than none. Anyhow, I'm sure you want pics so here they are. Oh, and my idle and LOAD temps dropped by ALMOST 20C!!!

Shame on whoever is assembling these machines as the average user will NEVER fix this and would perhaps think 'this is just how hot it is supposed to run'. I would demand Apple fix this, I would show them pictures etc, etc.

Oh the HORROR!




Now the heat pipe cooling system before:


Here is a CLEAN logic board - From left to right: GPU, North Bridge, CPU:


Proper paste applied - I have some special diamond dust thermal paste that is VERY durable so I used it - I have seen others apply the paste to the chips AND to the heat sinks, THIS IS BAD, VERY BAD!!! ONLY APPLY TO CHIPS.


And finally the cleaned heat pipe cooler:

 

interesting....i think this was also a problem with first generation macbooks.....

 

Looks like a 4 year old fingerpainted that paste on the mb in the Apple warehouse. =)

 

I replaced the thermal paste on my Core 2 2.0Ghz Macbook with some AS5 but didn't notice a 20C drop like you did. Mine was more of a 5C drop. However, after using my Macbook for an hour or two, the temps slowly increased and were almost the same as with the old thermal paste.

My current temps are about 45-50C idle and 50-55C under normal usage.

 

Saw that thread but your paste didnt look quite as bad, plus, the MBP puts out much more heat with the GPU... I have noticed that EVERYTHING is running cooler, the HD temps have dropped significantly as well. Since all 3 chips are on the same heat pipe system, the effects of proper paste is multiplied.

 

Amazing. Just amazing. Please repost your pictures to all the relevant Apple forums in order to raise awareness of this issue. macrumors.com, discussions.apple.com (macbook pro section), and so on.

Do you have any more details on the temperature comparison, other than a 20C drop under load? How you tested, things like that? Did you use any guide to help you get the logic board out? Can you provide a link to purchase this "diamond dust" thermal paste you used?

We had a 6 page discussion about this issue with the Santa Rosa MBPs on macrumors.com, which basically came down to me saying "this is a problem, look at the temperature deltas, look at the pictures, use your head" and two apple fanatics saying "unless the CPU shuts down, everything is fine." If you post on macrumors I will not derail your thread, I've said my piece there

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=314464
(for that discussion; be sure to check out the links in the original post and in my last post on page 6)

Anyway, thank you for taking pictures. PLEASE, please, post on more forums so that awareness is raised and Apple fixes this assembly problem on otherwise great notebooks.

 

That is pretty savage, got me worried about a future purchase now!

Wonder if its a problem with all of them (just the 17"?), or a particular batch dealt with by heavy handed builders!

 

I just let my 2.0ghz Macbook idle for about an hour and it's stable at 45C.

 

Those are some very good pictures. I really don't understand what Apple's justification is for sloppy thermal paste work. Seeing how much more they are using, wouldn't it save them money to do it properly and use less? Since this problem carried over form the original MBP, you'd also think it would have been cheaper to apply thermal paste properly rather than redesign the vents on the chassis and have to get manufacturers to change their process in order to control the heat problems.

I wonder if mine has that problem too. I'd bet it does given that it generally idles at 50-60C although it is summer now. But, I'm too chicken to open it up and risk voiding the warranty.

 

so does mine but both of my Dell laptops (xps 1710 and 1210) idle at the same temp, so I think that this is the norm for intel cpu's

 

Apple doesn't build these computers.

Edit: If opening your computer voids the warranty, then I think you're doing a disservice by suggesting that others do the same to correct this 'problem'. Just complain at an Apple store. I read the MacRumors thread and there were no fanatics there screaming that as long as it works, it's fine. I actually agree that you shouldn't void the warranty by opening the computer. If it fails prematurely, then let Apple replace it. Otherwise, it's not worth it. I remember threads going on and on about the need to apply thermal paste in the Dell 8600, but I never bought into it. My computer still works 3 years on and is under warranty for another year. Even if 'correctly' applying thermal paste to this computer would extend the life a little, it wouldn't matter because I'm already looking to replace it with newer technology. The point of the MacRumors people who said to leave it be is well taken - if you're techy enough to disassemble a MBP and reapply thermal paste, then chances are that you're not going to be satisfied with the computer in two or three years time, which is way before the poor paste application and overheating causes an actual computer failure.

Edit2: Yes it sucks that the computer gets a lil warmer than one would expect, but it's probably not an Apple problem. They don't manufacture the product and it's not like other brands haven't experienced similar issues. It would be nice if whatever ODM supplies these computers would properly apply paste, though.

 

I bet you all notebook/desktop manufacturers just slab a ton of paste on the CPU die. It's faster than taking a razor and carefully evening out the paste.

 

Even if the MBPs aren't built in Cupertino, they are marketed by Apple, sold by Apple, supported by Apple, and under warranty by Apple. If there is a problem with quality control, it's Apple's responsibility to fix it. I presume we all agree on that.

I don't want to engage in an argument about anything else here; just let's be clear on the fact that Apple has to take the blame for the bad things if they take the credit (and the money) for all the great things about the MBP.

 

Yes and the razor thing is just ridiculous. This is why I use Ceramique in my desktops - AS5 is too troublesome. Who cares, though? Laptops generally don't see much over clocking and those who do overclock probably buy lappys that are built with AS5. As for Desktops, if you're not building it yourself then surely you don't expect it to overclock to magical numbers that would necessitate the use of high-quality thermal compound, so who cares? The computer runs and will probably run for years beyond the time that you decide you're in need of newer technology.

 

I guess this is why manufacturers are pushing the notebook name instead of laptop and are warning users not to use them on their laps.

 

opening the computer does not void the warranty. Period

In fact, you can't do mcuh other than break the computer yourself to void the warranty.

 

That's not really up for you to decide is it?

I thought the common knowledge was that if the Apple dude finds evidence of internal tampering, they'll blame w/e problem the MBP is there for on that rather than its actual source. Of course, I'd love to be proven wrong.

 

I have been using arctic silver for so long that I didn't even know they introduced ceramique, until I saw you and nik (the OP) mention this (in different places).

I will have to buy some... probably to use on a MBP

 

Just to clarify some of these manufacturing issues. The Macbook and MBP are made by Asus Corporation. HOWEVER, they are assembled (including the thermal paste) by Apple technicians. Apple recieves a bunch of empty chassis and it is up to them to put the parts in and to apply the paste and all of that.

 

I thought Quanta makes the Macbook Pro and Asus makes the Macbook.

 

Just to clarify even further . ASUS does not make the MacBook Pro. ASUS does make the MacBook.

 

Good advice in there,

Only apply to the chips not to the heatsink

I've seen soooooooo many "know it alls" which remove the paste and put just as much back on by adding it to the heatsinks in addition to the chips.

 

I had a hunch, a theory if you will. I took my logic board out YET AGAIN... why? To test my theory. First, with my THIN layer of thermal paste, remember I used this special diamond paste which was VERY thick, almost like cold peanut butter. Well, the chips were making good contact with the sinks, no problem there at all. Now for my theory - I would bet anything that the thermal paste being used is Shin-Etsu G751, this is my paste of choice for my watercooled desktop machine. This paste DOES NOT AND WILL NOT SPEAD it is too thick. Intel spec for desktop mount pressure is ~50 to 70 lbs. With that amount of pressure excess will ooze out no matter the paste's viscosity. I dont know what Intel's mount pressure spec is for bare die CPU's (Desktop CPU's have an IHS - Integrated Heat Spreader covering the die, our notebook cpu's do not) but I can assure you it is no where near that of a desktop. If I had to guess I would say no more than 35 lbs. Anyway, with such little mount pressure excess thermal paste, especially the stuff Apple is using, is not going to easily ooze out. Again I believe this paste is Shin-Etsu G751 which many many OEM's use as it is very good and lasts a long time. So, if the stock paste is slopped inbetween the chips and the sinks some will ooze out, but not all of it! Please go back and look at my link to the large picture - note how much paste is on the chips! WAY too much! Here is a picture of the thermal paste on a desktop CPU after testing a bowed waterblock - the block was convex, you will note the strip going from top to bottom just off center - note how the paste was squished out! This paste in the below picture is Ceramique.



Anyway, tonight I removed the diamond paste which was also thick, not quite as thick as the stock stuff but still very viscous. I replaced it with Ceramique! I was fairly liberal with it (to test my theory) and my temps are now BETTER THAN EVER. Hard to give a number just yet as I just loaded the snot out of it with Intels Thermal Analysis Tool in windows.

To reiterate my theory once more - The amount of paste being used by Apple is NOT THE PROBLEM as people have stated, what is the problem is the viscosity of the paste, it is far too thick to ooze out from between chips and sink leaving a much thicker amount of paste which will hinder cooling in a bad way.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it

 

All,
I recently upgraded from a MBP Core Duo 2GHz (which my girlfriend now enjoys) to a MBP Core 2 Duo Santa Rosa 2,2GHz, 15-inch.

The MBP CD always was a lovely quiet machine. Hardly ever would the fan's rev up so you'd hear them. The MBP C2D SR however rev's up when on the power-outlet with a battery that is almost empty (working on battery or on outlet with charged battery is no problem) with simple tasks like scrolling through a 4 gig iPhoto library (exessivey, as in constant scrolling). The rev's of the fans quikely hit 6000 rpm!

I compared both machines. Whe working normally, charged battery, on power-outlet, the memory controller of the MBP C2D SR is on average 10 degrees celsius hotter than the MemController of the MBP CD.

Than I did a 'yes'-test (type in yes in terminal and hit enter, this will stress the CPU). Let both machines run for about 10 minutes. Here are the temp readings on both machines (in degree celcius)?

MPB C2D SR:
CPU 69
GPU 69
GPU Heatsink 59
Heatsink A 55
Heatsink B 46
Enclosure Bottom 38
Memory Controller 64
RPM 5479

MPB CD:
CPU 70
GPU 51
GPU Heatsink 58
Heatsink A 34
Heatsink B 37
Enclosure Bottom 36
Memory Controller 58
RPM 4890

Especially the heatsink's differ a lot (more than 20 and 10 degrees celcius).

What might be the reason for these high temp differences? thermal paste?

I hate the machine reving up so much, i am used to the quiet fan's of MBP CD and Powerbook G4.

What are the readings other MBP C2D SR owners get?
And, do you all have the same issue with revs going quickly to 6000rpm when charging empty battery and doing minor things like scrolling through iPhoto? (i think this also is related to the MemController reaching temperature of 61 degree celcius, this is when the fans kick in big time.

 

I agree - there is definitely something wrong with SR macbooks...They are too hot.
It is the first laptop that i have and that i can not put on my LAP. Maybe they should stop calling them LAPtops and start calling them desktops?
Maybe it is time for class action?

 

The computer companies don't call them laptops anymore, they call them notebooks . Its the users that haven't changed yet.

And its not just the Santa Rosa MBPs, all notebooks nowadays get very hot. Heck, my old Fujitsu with Pentium M was too hot to use on my lap.

 

Hi all, I would like to disassembly my MBP SR changing thermal paste to reduce the heat... Nick have you followed a guide or basically the instict?
Fixit guide exists only for pre santarosa MBP!

 

Seriously, guys, leave old threads to rest! I can't stand this ridiculous "reviving old threads" trend!!

I don't really recommend taking apart your MBP, as it voids your warranty. If you really want to lower your temperature, try adjusting the fans using SMCFanControl. If your MBP is getting ridiculously high temperatures, then take it to Apple.

 

Wow, you have guts to open the machine like that...

I'm surprised about how poor some of these $3K machines are made.

 

I only want to now if he follows a guide or something similar... I don't want to spin up my fans, i want to quite them...

Why every discussion that start with "open" or "overclock" finally come every time into warranty voiding posts?

 

The OP has a point, but my search on this topic revealed that this is not new to MBP. It good to have all views to make a informed choice about Apple machines, in my view.

Sam, while I agree with yoru view of not reviving old threads, for the newcomer to this forums who wants to know about Apple Mac's these revisions are very helpful, and provide a well rounded view of the PRO and CONS of owning an Apple. I also agree that PC with the same specs as the MBP run hot, so it not specific to Apples.

just my 2c,
thanks

 

Ok, next time i'll ask him in pvt...

Btw smiley, PCs with same specs as the mbp will not have the same form factor (as width of the lap, etc) so you cannot compare them...

 

True--I agree,

and I also noticed that PC have breathing vents on side and and the bottom to dissipate heat; I do not own a MBP, but does soemthing like this exist in the MBP? When I checked the MBP in iStore (Apple's local store), Id did not see breathing vents anywhere, but I did not look that carefully.

yes, the form factor is a big plus for MBP compared to PC.

 

The vents on the MBP are on the back only. Very nice and discrete

 

I wish they could make more vents on the sides.

 

No no no more fans, only colder intel chips

nikhsub1 are you reading my previous question?

 

That's what I never understood. The PowerBooks which have essentially the same chassis design had small vents at the sides close to the front. Personally, I think that would have been a lot more effective drawing air from the front of the case all the way out the back, whereas now the intakes are only below the keyboard and out the back. But I guess, their reasoning may be they didn't want to draw in dirt from low lying vents or didn't want air preheated by the HDD. Although to the first concern, I don't think keyboard vents are much cleaner given the high traffic and it'll suck floating dust just as easily, and to the 2nd concern, the front vents could supplement the keyboard vents so preheating by the HDD isn't that much of a concern.

 

They could be like Asus and put a huge vent on the right side where your mouse hand would be normally

 

Comfortable and warm for winter days .