Is OS X worth 400 dollars?

I have no problem finding shared files on the last pc left in my house through OS X.

 

So you are saying that your Mac just doesn't work.

 

Not really.

Ever try reformatting your windows PC without needing to load drivers? I just reformatted my MBP last night and it was a streamlined process ... No chipset drivers to load, no display driver to load, no audio driver to load ... I've been using PCs for a long time, I know what I'm talking about.

Moreover, the multi gestured trackpads that some PCs have just aren't as fluent as the MBP ... I mean, it is really well done.

Search my post history, I don't believe OS X is inherently better than Windows (that's a matter of opinion) but I give credit where credit is due. There's no comparing the out of box experience.

 

Out of the box experience is the same for Windows too. I have done clean installs many times with zero help. For drivers, Windows cannot have all the drivers built in for thousands of hardware devices, whereas OS X can have drivers built in 10-20 hardware devices.
Just because you are using a mac, you can't justify it with false arguments.

 

Ah! That brings me back to last year when I switched. As a PC person I could never understand what all the Apple "fanboys" saw in OS X. I tried Mac out in the stores, didn't see anything spectacular and got frustrated with the unfamiliar interface. It wasn't until my wife insisted that she wanted a Mac to replace her dead PC and I went through the setup proccess did I start to understand. The more a actually used her system in real situations the more amazed I was at how well thought out the OS was. That very weekend we replaced 3 of the 5 PCs in the house with Macs. Now we are down to only 1 PC left to replace when it gets old enough and my son complains every day about having to wait. Experiences vary but everyone in my house loves OS X. Sometimes I still kick myself For waiting so long and buying into the nay Sayers.

 

That's the beauty side of the closed system Apple uses. A mac doesn't need to worry about thousands of drivers as the OS is built for a structured set of hardware. When new drivers are released they are part of an OS update. No need to go searching all over for the right driver or just a driver that actually works like I used to do in Vista.

 

Searching for drivers is fun for me.
It is not the hardest thing in the world.

 

I'm not going to bother arguing, you just have to own one and use it to understand what I'm telling you.

I had your very mindset just last week, check my post history.

My point is, lets say I buy a HP Laptop ... It will come with so much bloatware (usually) that an OS re-installation is inevitable. Upon installing the OS, I will need to install the drivers for the laptop's integrated webcam/trackpad/audio card/video card ... This is not the case with OS X, and it's just a side effect of their closed system.

Edit: True, searching for drivers isn't difficult ... And it's made easy by the manufacturer bundling them onto a DVD/CD ... But still, give credit where credit is due. It's nice to not have to worry about it.

 

Believe me, clean re-install of Windows is not really necessary. Just uninstalling the OEM bloatware is good enough. I have done both many times and there was no performance differences in both the cases.
My point is "searching for drivers" alone should not be a reason to choose OS X over Windows. I do admire at everything what Apple makes and I am not saying that OS X is inferior to Windows.

 

Yeah I know clean re-installs aren't absolutely necessary ... But just knowing that uninstalls often times leave clutter in the registry doesn't sit well with me. I always prefer clean installs.

I still do most of my work on my desktop (Which is a PC running W7), I just bought a Macbook Pro because 1) It's perhaps the most well built laptop in the 13" bracket 2) I wanted to try OS X 3) I wanted battery life without having to compromise power/portability.

I just thought it was a good time to give it a shot ... I'm glad I did, I like it.

 

Clean install or simply removing crapware is not needed out of the box on a Mac. That and drivers are not the sole reason to get a Mac and to say that is a bit unreasonable. Some people actually enjoy all the work they have to do to maintain Windows. I on the other hand would rather spend the time working WITH my computer than ON my computer.

 

i am saying that it wont show my network shared files

 

What steps are you taking to find them?

 

Lol, I don't think slikdealor got your joke

Anyway, I do a clean install for Windows, once. And I do the tweaking, once. Then, Norton Ghost for the disc image. Now, I'm not saying this can't be done in Mac, but after this stage, looking for drivers no longer forms a part of the notebook's future life.

 

I've got an ongoing Should I or Shouldn't I? relationship with Mac laptops. I get drawn in with each new release, yet each time I ultimately can't bring myself to "pull the trigger" (as they say ).

 

So you are saying that new drivers never come out for PCs? They must get it right the first time.

 

I guess i really didnt get the "joke" but he was right, for me, the mac doesnt "just work." I like windows 7. there are lots of cool features on os x, like 4 finger swipe to show all programs running. but its only cool because there is like no other way to see what programs are really running. like right now i am using os x and it has a little blue dot below the quicktime icon, but i know that quicktime is not running. what the h? why would the little blue light be under it if it werent running.
the things i really do like on os x are iphoto and imovie. it is really easy to make cool videos and slideshows. but exporting the movie didnt prove as easy. i exported the movie to a location, and i went to that location, and it wasnt there. i had to find the project file i was working on, then right click on the file, then click "open package contents" to find the movie i exported. it was a miracle that i found that. in windows, if you export a file somewhere, its just there. the project file for the movie you were working on is separate from the finished product (the exported file). i dont know, maybe i just need to get more accustomed to everything first. but my first impressions of os x are that it is 1) sleek on the surface, 2) awesome at creating content, 3) not easy to use if you are a windows user.

longest post ever for me on the internets

 

Just because newer drivers come out doesn't mean you have to install them. I must say though, that I've installed Win7 on a variety of different PCs (new and old) now and it's installed drivers and run perfectly fine on all of them. Quite a feat - and something that OS X can't do... however OS X isn't designed to do that anyway due to the closed nature of Apple and it's hardware/software products.

OS X and Win7 are both fantastic operating systems in their own right - it really boils down to which OS (I choose to learn/use all of them) that you prefer.

 

Hey, maybe that should be the new Windows slogan!

As a very long time Windows user, this is one of the things that always keeps me from buying a Mac.

 

Sounds like you haven't been using OS X very long so here's a little help. The Apple website has all sorts of useful information and videos to help you get the most out of your Mac. Expose can be accessed via the 4 finger swipe or the f3 key. You should also check out the activity monitor which shows programs running and all sorts of information. Quicktime has the blue dot because even though you do not have an open window in use, the program is still running. If you click on the dock icon you will see the menu at the top of your screen but no window will open. The menu allows you to start a new project such as recording a movie of what you are doing on your screen. If you want to make sure that Quicktime is closed, right click on the icon and select "quit". As for exporting a movie, perhaps you were looking in the wrong place. There is no need to go into the project folder if you properly exported the movie. Final tip for now is for your issues seeing your shared folders in Windows 7 on your Mac. Here's a video to explain the sidebar in the finder window and how to access those files, its not difficult at all.

No you don't need to install new drivers or even security updates if you don't want to they just help the system run better. I'm glad the drivers worked on all the systems you tried, I wish I could have had the same results with Vista when it came out. It is quite a feat and the point isn't that OS X can't do the same, the point is that it doesn't need to. Like I said earlier, its the beauty part of the closed system.

Did unfamiliar interfaces stop you from upgrading from XP as well? That is a pretty weak argument if you ask me. Just like going from XP to Vista took a couple of weeks to adjust, Windows to OS X will take adjustments as well.

 

Theoretically/potentially ... yes. Though that's not always the case.

I'd agree that Vista was a complete train wreck - and one of the reasons I really never upgraded to/fully used the OS. It was a completely rushed/reactionary/"gotta put something out" version that, IMHO, should have never been released - much in the same vein as Windows ME - but that's another story..

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder..

I fully understand the point behind OS X / Apple hardware - to wit, it's also the primary reason I won't ever purchase one. I find it completely ironic how Apple signaled an era of new computing with it's famed anti-Orwellian-esque "1984" ad, yet now Apple continues to exert such overwhelming control over a platform/product line that could offer SO much more if it were allowed to be open... IMHO - it's quite sad to see such potential limited by a very finely controlled niche target audience/market.

But hey - now there's the iPad to even further divide the market...

 

Please explain the irony to me, i'm interested to hear your thought proccess here. What specifically needs to be more open in OS X? Also explain what you are referencing that could offer "so much more".

 

Ok, back to the OP.

Good build quality (and let's not get trollish and talk about "heat dissipation" and how "business laptops" are infinitely better. Macs have sufficient build quality for the vast majority of people, so STFU.)
Good keyboard
Good trackpad
Good looks
Good screen
Good performance

Voila. Very little compromise, except perhaps for a lack of ports. No, OSX isn't worth 400 dollars, but the whole package is definitely worth it.

 

And a lack of the Backspace key. That one just kills me.

 

Jervis, could you be a bit more specific on this? Seriously, I'd really like to know.

Thanks.

 

What I'm referring to as "open" is the ability to install/use OS X on PC's other than native Apple hardware.. I'd believe that, given the choice, if OS X were allowed to be installed - you'd see it much more widely accepted / deployed. I certainly would if that were the case. I personally believe in the abstraction/separation of software and hardware layers - in that one should be allowed to run on the other (optimized/certified hardware recommendations are another matter) without limitations - but I'm a software developer - so.....

Additionally, I know many developers, like myself, would take a further active interest in OS X and subsequently - you'd see much more widely available software being developed for OS X in general. As it stands today, a developer must use very specific hardware and software in order to develop for the platform. As noted before - I understand the point behind all of this (controlled/closed system - niche targeted market). However, *most* developers that I know don't like having these controlled limitations placed on them as they develop... I certainly know in the business world where I work - it's frowned upon as well...

On another merit - though not entirely related to this discussion - I find it hard/personally distasteful to purchase software/hardware from a company that seeks to control it's market so much (i.e. take Jobs' recent "open" letter regarding Adobe Flash) that it specifically dictates what software/technologies I'm allowed to install.. Again - this goes back to the abstraction of software vs. hardware. *I* should have the right/ability to choose whether or not *I* personally want to use Adobe Flash or not (hardware issues, crashes, bugs, security issues and all) - PERIOD. I don't need Steve Jobs to tell me what software I need on *my* system. Granted, you can run Adobe Flash on OS X etc., today - however, if you don't think that this letter isn't a precursor of things to come in general for OS X / Macs - never mind the fact that, again, software developers everywhere in general aren't paying very close attention to the underlying message of this discussion (i.e. CONTROLLED software on this platform) - then you've really bought into the hype..

Apple has just drawn a very firm line in the sand regarding development on a widely available/very popular software technology. From what I've seen so far from overall reactions, this may prove to be a extremely unpopular move going forward - only time will tell..

In software development - being "open" breeds new ideas / technologies related to the software platform - which in turn drives the market in new directions. While I certainly agree that Apple has created many new technologies in both aspects that have impacted the market positively (i.e. firewire, etc.) - as noted before, I personally believe that OS X could be so much more if it was allowed to be "open" on any hardware, etc. Of course - the negative impact there would be that Apple would have to start dealing with all of the headaches that other OS platforms that do this today (i.e. multiple/varying hardware support, drivers, security issues/flaws/attacks, etc.)

 

Please keep the forum rules in mind: Discussion on running Mac OS X on non-Apple hardware is prohibited.

I removed one sentence from your post jsgiv.

 

@Phil - understood - I realize now what you're referring to - apologies ..

@Jervis961 - last notes and then I'll shut up. - I forgot to mention that, though I referred to Adobe Flash specifically in my previous post - Apple's new terms and conditions regarding future development on the upcoming iPhone/iPad 4.0 OS is actually more stringent overall with regards to development, etc. In short, the new terms and conditions explicitly define that the developer must use certain approved libraries, etc., in order to develop for the platform. Yes - I'm aware this is a closed system - however - it's another example of how tightly controlled the environment is becoming.

An example: Imagine a big, wonderful, juicy steak (application for the iPhone/iPad platform), and you want to eat that steak (develop for it) - you have your own knife and fork that you love to use and effectively gets the job done for you in eating that steak (dev tools/libraries). Now - before you sit down and eat - the steakhouse owner (Apple) says - "nope - can't use that - you have to eat the steak the way *everyone* else eats it here - using one hand only, and the other hand tied behind your back, and, you have to use this new/improved combined steak-fork-knife (Apple's proprietary "standardized" libraries) that we've designed here for you to use. Additionally - while other steakhouses give you the ability to extend/improve our design - you have to check with us first - and we'll consider it the next time we re-design the steak-knife-fork - but don't count on it. Any deviation from using the current steak-knife-fork will have you removed from the restaurant and you won't be allowed to eat steak here ever again. Finally - you can only eat 60% of the steak - the remaining 40% (Apple's take of income from the sales of your application on the platform) of that steak - we keep for the benefit of you eating here.."

That's what I'm alluding to about being "open" - developers are tied down to a very specific way to code for Apple. OS X isn't quite this stringent - yet.. but I wouldn't be surprised if it goes to this extreme....

 

Its called a delete key on a Mac.

OK grab a drink and take a seat this could be a long one.

From the initial start up of a Mac you get an idea for what they are trying to do with the operating system. You hit the start button and the first thing you are asked is to select a language (no its not instantly, there is a short boot time). Once you select the language you are given the short "welcome" video. While its not a major selling point or anything like that it is a welcome change from my experience with setting up a PC. It shows that Apple put some though into what they wanted the customer's initial experience with the system to be. While Windows goes through a whole series of settings and inputs before letting you use the system Apple felt the need to thank you for the purchase. After the video you choose your country and keyboard, then setup goes directly into the migration assistant. If you already have a Mac and want to transfer files the assistant walks you through connecting the systems and loads all your files and settings on your new Mac. You are then asked which of the available networks you would like to join. The next step is to enter your Apple ID or create a new one as part of the registration process. Finally you name your system and set your password and enable Mobile Me if you choose to. While I can's speak for the final Windows 7 release I can say setting up OS X seemed faster and was more enjoyable (if you can call it that) than XP, Vista and the W7 beta.

Once I was done with the initial setup I started to set up my printer. Just to give a little back story about my Windows experience with my printer. I originally bought the network printer when I was using Vista. While setting it up in Windows I would have to wait several minutes while Windows searched for the printer (I could literally go have lunch and come back during the process and still end up waiting). Once the printer was found the rest of the setup would take several more minutes to complete. No biggie, having only used Microsoft operating systems for the previous 20 years or so I figured it was normal. After repeating the process on my other 4 computers in the house and wasting most of my day everything worked and I was happy. Here's where my problems started as Vista would forget where the printer was, sometimes within days other times after a few weeks. Needless to say I was constantly repeating the process of installing a network printer. I also tried the Windows 7 Beta for about a month and had the same issues before switching to Mac. Anyway, on the Mac I went into settings and was able to install the same network printer within 2 minutes and haven't had any issues since (over a year and now on 4 Macs). The lone PC I have left (Vista) still keeps losing the printer.

After syncing my contacts and email accounts I moved on to importing pictures I had backed up on CD. I went into iPhoto and easily imported the files and decided to play around a bit. I clicked on a family photo and clicked on the name function. iPhoto marked the faces on the picture and all I had to do was add a name. I started typing a name and options popped up from my contact list automatically. I marked the faces and then went to the faces section of iPhoto to see how well it worked. All the people I had tagged were there with a close up of their face from the photo. I clicked on one and not only did it show me the photo I had tagged the person in but the program had suggested other photos the person may be in. Then there was the places feature that shows locations of photos that have geo tags or that you manually tag. iPhoto also has built in uploading functions for Facebook, flickr, email and mobile me. The program is easy to use and has many useful features. Same goes for the other iLife programs included on a Mac. Apple obviously put a lot of effort into selecting programs will want to use but also in making them simple to use as well. i could go into each program but I think you get the idea.

Will that do, or do you need me to go into parental controls,the track pad, the dock and expose?

 

Whatever you wanna call the keys (Backspace or Delete), one of them is missing on the MBP... and I use both of them quite often, so I know I'd miss whichever one is not there.

I'll go grab that drink first, then read your post.

 

No, absolutely not.

 

Sure, that would be great.

 

Delete and Backspace keys perform different functions. Backspace deletes one entry backwards, whereas Delete key deletes one entry forward.

 

Yep. And having both of these keys on a keyboard makes sense. Having just one... doesn't.


EDIT: To avoid any flaming, I should probably say that having just one of these keys doesn't make sense to me.

 

You haven't explained the irony from the 1984 ad though. What do you see in the ad that is ironic? As for what you did post, I tend to disagree. Yes Apple MIGHT sell more copies of its OS initially by allowing customers to install it on whatever they want but it has a higher probability of hurting them in the long run. Since you like to use analogies here's one for you.

A car maker builds car X that is not only well built but also has an engine that gets 50 MPG while having a 0-60 time of 4 seconds. The cars are more expensive so they don't sell as well as other brands even though they aren't as efficient, fast or as well built. Even though they don't sell many cars they are able to gain a good profit because their customers are willing to pay a premium for what they provide. One day someone convinces the owner that he is being unfair by keeping his well built engine to himself and can make more money by allowing other companies to buy it. The company suddenly has money pouring in as every other car company places orders for his engine. The other companies announce that the engines will be in cars that are thousands of dollars cheaper than car X and while his engine is selling like crazy nobody wants to buy car X anymore. A few months later when the new cars are released people line up to buy them and the other companies have a hard time meeting initial demand. Then the feedback starts pouring in and it isn't good. The new cars aren't as efficient, well built or fast as car X and they have buck when shifting gears. The dealer says, don't blame me, go see the engine maker he must have changed something and his engine is causing our transmission to buck. Word spreads that the engine supplied by car X's company sucks because it doesn't work as well in the cheaper cars and doesn't work well with the transmission in off brands. Car X's builder tries to explain that he didn't change anything and that the new cars are just cheap rip offs that aren't build specifically for the engine but they don't care. He tries to adjust the engines to work with the new car transmissions but the cars still don't perform as well and there is still some bucking from the transmission. Car X's manufacturer pleads with the car makers to change the transmissions they use and to improve car quality but they refuse and say he should be able to make the engine work in anything they put it in. Soon nobody wants to buy the engine and the reputation of car X is ruined also due to the engine problems.

The kind of control Apple is using isn't new to the business world. Do GPS manufacturers let you install other company's software or maps on them? Do Xbox 360 games play on a PS3 (by the way they have a controlled set of specs, coding that can be used and allowed accessories)? Can you get a BMW engine in a Focus? The reason Apple keeps the reins so tight isn't just for control and profit its because they know what happens when things are not in their control. Other companies have the ability to cut corners, use cheap supplies or give bad customer service which could effect customer satisfaction with OS X. I would rather have them use a limited set of specs and work on improving how the system works than spending 1/4 of their time improving functionality and 3/4 of the time making the OS work on anything a customer may use it with.

The Adobe issue is a little different but still falls along the same lines. Flash is known to be a huge resource hog and Adobe hasn't done much to fix it. yes there was the hardware acceleration added recently to a beta (which helps but doesn't fix the problem) but other than that they haven't really worked on it. I also agree with Jobs about blocking Apps built using Flash as easier doesn't equate to same or better quality. Also if developers only know how to work with Adobe's suite it gives Adobe control over what can be done in Apple's OS. In the end the open system could work quite the opposite of what you think and make the OS "so much less" than it could be if Adobe drags its feet adding functionality. Seeing how they have dragged their feet fixing flash in OS X and have dragged their feet introducing true mobile flash (when did they announce that anyway 2 years ago?), I wouldn't want to take their word that they would be quick to introduce improvements. I think Adobe would not give updates to add functionality and would instead save them for the next version of their suite so they can make money off developers having to upgrade.

 

If the first part didn't help you understand, I don't think wasting my time explaining further would really help.

Actually the delete key on my MBP acts like the backspace key on Windows so while there technically isn't a key labeled "backspace" the function does exist. I find it humorous that you two are saying that you are physically unable to place cursor in the appropriate location and erase using a single key? Having both is a waste of space if you ask me.

 

Hey, you made the offer. I just took you up on it.

Really? I find it humorous that you are knocking Windows PCs because you say a Mac is more user friendly. Yet when something is pointed out that is harder to do on a Mac you call us "physically unable" and say that the feature is a "waste of space."

Typical. Sorry, but it's true...

 

Fn + delete perform the same action as the delete key under windows. Both are there but if you use the delete (windows) key frequently, I could see how having to press two keys might become a PITA.

 

For gamers, OSX is mostly useless, unless you're a Blizzard fanboi. So I stick with Windows.

I'd rather use Linux than either.

 

Seeing how you had no real comment other than to ask me to continue I could sense your motives. You don't really care to know anything, you just enjoy asking.

As for the delete key, if it was a major function it would be a different story. I don't know how you type but usually a mistake is spotted behind the cursor and on the Mac the delete key deletes behind the cursor. The only time you need to delete in front of the cursor is if put the cursor in the wrong spot. Like I said before if you are physically unable to accurately place a cursor you may need that function, otherwise it is a waste op space.

 

It really is irritating to have no native Delete key. If you type a lot, it's a pain. My 2 cents.

I work with an '08 MBP.

 

Yes - I see (and understand) your car analogy - the primary difference boils down to how one views Apple's product(s). As I stated before - IMHO, Software and Hardware (at least with regards to general use computers and their respective operating systems) should be ultimately separated, for a wide variety of reasons (at least from my "developer's" point of view).

I can, however, certainly appreciate the argument regarding the Apple product line, considering how well the hardware and OS X itself inter-operates. To the point of this overall discussion - it's not OS X you're paying "extra" for - it's the complete interoperability of both the hardware and the OS X platform. To wit, look how long it's taken Microsoft to even come *close* to providing a comparable (again depending on your viewpoint) experience...

That being said - where you see value in Apple's closed/controlled system - I see an obtrusive, arrogant, attempt to control my computing experience (no matter how *well* it works). I'd agree with you that what Apple is doing isn't necessarily new - but that doesn't mean I have to agree with it.. I do, however, appreciate you explaining your viewpoint to me ..

 

not even remotely comparable except on a very superficial level. Microsoft has about a billion possible hardware configurations that their software needs to work near-flawlessly on.

the amount of work required to make that happen is a few orders of magnitude more difficult to get OSX running stable on a handful of chipsets and GPUs. Even if people stay on the surface when deciding which is best for them, it's simply unfair to not acknowledge how much harder Microsoft's job is.

 

Oh, definitely agreed.. which was my original earlier point that, should Apple ever choose (not that it will) to allow OS X on other non-Apple hardware - that it'd have a huge undertaking in and of itself to accomplish what Microsoft has done with Windows..

 

I understand your feelings but they contradict what Microsoft says about the development on the Xbox 360. They talk about how the developers love the 360 because they have a single set of fixed specifications. Developers don't have to worry about how the user might have a different processor or want to tweak settings. They say it allows them to create better games more quickly and for less money. MS also collects developer fees and a cut of the software. I'm confused at how what apple is doing is any worse.

By the way, I'm still waiting for a better explanation on how the 1984 video is ironic. I think your interpretation may be different than the actual intent of the spot.

 

the backspace delete thing is funny...

Mac full sized keyboards have both Backspace and Delete, in the exact same spots as "PC" keyboards.

Mac miniature keyboards (like on the laptops) have just the Backspace key (called delete) in the normal backspace position... but if you hit Fn+Delete, it does a "PC" style delete... so the functionality is fully there.

 

To me a dedicated delete button makes as much sense as a secondary mouse click.

Flaming portion of this thread has been removed. Time to close this thread.