Is Penryn much better than Santa Rosa?

I keep hearing that Penryn is coming out or mbp in the near future. My family though is looking into getting a mbp, I have one to its amazing. My question is is Penryn going to be much better than Santa Rosa or will it be minor upgrade such as little better battery life, no significant speed changes. Or am i just wrong and Penryn is a small update to the Santa Rosa Platform with Montevina to follow in the future sometime in mid 2008, which would im guessing be pretty significant upgrade

 

Penryn is a new CPU architecture (45nm) to replace the Merom architecture (65nm) and bring improvements.

Santa Rosa is a chipset platform, and it will be used in conjunction with Penryn to start, to be replaced by Montevina, which will bring more improvements.

While Penryn + Santa Rosa is better than Merom + Santa Rosa, Montevina will be the real leap. AFAIK Penryn includes SSE4 instructions, which really improves DIVX creation, but not much vs. everything else outside of added cache, which helps 10% or so across the board.

Anyway, I'd say wait if you can because the MBP is due for an upgrade soon, and Leopard is right around the corner...

 

yes, penryn is a minor improvement, same architecture but with die shrink. 45nm and added cache, minor improvement, yada yada yada, but most importantly! less power consumption, but faster (performance per watt). it will run cooler, consumes less battery, and runs faster.

and yes, montevina is a major upgrade.

as always with technology; if you need your computer now, buy it now; as with everything nowdays, wait a little more then there is something new and better around the corner. if you can hold (such as you have a computer already), hold on, as long as possible. as with new stuff there's tends to be bugs/problems. so yeah.

to adaptive,

where did you hear MBP would be upgraded? it would be upgraded next year weeks, even months after peryn arrived. the macbook is the one that is due for an upgrade with santa rosa soon.

 

What is ETA on Montevina? I am sort-of at the process of buying MBP, I can wait, but I'd rather not if there's not much point.

 

Q3 or Q4 2007 by all accounts...or is it Q1 2008 now? Either way, there'll most likely be at least 1 refresh of the MBP with just SR Penryn before that, so no sense waiting for Montevina.

 

Montevina (the platform) is scheduled to be released in Q2 2008, and Nehalem (the processor) is scheduled to be released in the second half of 2008.

And Adaptive, I don't think the MBP will be updated anytime soon; there's nothing to update it with. Its already using Santa Rosa, it has LED-backlighting (not the 17-inch model though), it has 8600M GT. There's nothing new to update the MBP with. The next MBP update should be in early next year, with Penryn's release.

Its the MacBook that would most likely get an update, if it does happen.

 

For Montevina, will the improvements be in the area of pure speed and power consumption, or are there other more subtle areas of improvement? Based on past chipset upgrades, what sort of overall performance boost can be expected from Monetvina alone (10%, 20%, 50%)?

 

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I so don´t get you, guys. I think it´s so very obvious that with the upcoming MB upgrade there HAS TO BE a MBP upgrade, too. If MB goes Santa Rosa then the gap between MB and MBP is reduced to a minimum or at least it is too less for optimal market positioning (LED screen, gfx, etc. just WON`T be enough of an argument anymore).

 

Nah... the MB and MBP used to both be on the same platform (Napa); it was no big deal... they just used faster-clocked processors for the MBP, and also the MBP has the graphics card, bigger and better screen, Firewire 800, and aluminum casing. They never relied on using a different chipset... it just kind of happened because they were too lazy to update the Macbook to Santa Rosa, or just didn't see too much value in it. Most buyers probably don't even realize that the MBP uses a newer chipset... they don't really advertise it, and I don't see it being a huge reason for most people to step up to the MBP.

 

I don't know if it is the gamer in me or what, but the MBP has an 8600m GT GDDR3 graphics card. The MB has a GMA 950 chip.

No. Comparison.

I get where you are coming from, but the added functionality of the MBP is what sets it apart. You've got your aluminum case, your added ports, your LED screen, your GFX card, etc. They wont allow the MB to progress ahead of the MBP in processor speed, but they may allow it to at least reach parity. In other words, if the MB updates with Penryn, you'll be seeing up to 2.4GHz speeds, but not over.

 

not to mention bigger screens with higher resolution...............

 

Ok, maybe I should have been more detailed about this. I think with the upcoming update there will be a situation where (in case MBP does not get updated) MB and MBP are as close in terms of performance and features as never before. I don´t think anyone doubts MB to go SR, right? SR brings support for 4 Gb (which kind of is important only to performance oriented users who would normally go for MBP), furthermore increase of FSB and support for 4 MB L2-cache cpus. So CPU-cache-, bus speed-, memory speed & amount-wise there would be equality between MB and MBP. It´s perfectly logical that Apple won´t bring exact same cpu speeds in MB and MBP though.

When looking at the gamers demands, then - of course - MBP would be the only way to go even then. Btw. I really can´t understand why people have such high expectations when looking at x3100 gfx. Build-in gfx NEVER EVER was worth mentioning in terms of playing games. But I don´t believe in gaming to be a major thing in Apple´s plan anyway.
You guys mentioned the LED screen: 1400x900? This is just not up to date anymore, sorry. I see lots of people complaining about how weak this resolution actually is concerning this notebook is meant for 2D/3D work.
And the other things like ports, housing & finish, etc., well I believe it´s clear there is an update to come, too. So, new case, very likely to have new port layout and ports itself...
Think about it, again! No MB update without MBP update this year.

 

I don't get you too - what would you update the mbp with?

And, I'm not sure about others, but 1440*900 seems perfect to me, 1600*1200 is much too big a strain on eyes for 15"...

And if you are talking about people who don't care what is the gfx card in their laptop then I'm pretty sure they don't care about the difference with SR(they will only look at Ghz anyway). And those who want a good laptop(and don't care about gfx card) then their problem is their budget - and apple isn't really the best deal for budget models.

 

Go look around and see with what other highend laptops are coming resolutionwise spoken...

Absolutely not 1600x1200 but 1680x1050 instead - let´s keep it widescreen. And no, it´s absolutely no problem having that resolution on 15,4".

 

It may be no issue to you, but that's a matter of opinion. My parents still use 800x600 on their 17" CRT. I think it sucks, but they like things to be big and easy to read.

And let's not forget, that when you go to desktop LCDs, you don't even get 1680x1050 until you get to a 20" screen, and don't get 1900x1200 until you go to a 24" screen. So 1440x900 on a 15.4" screen may be perfectly reasonable to people who are used to the same resolution on a 19" screen on their desktop.

 

I strongly disagree and I don´t see this being a thing like "respect everyone´s opinion". When you do buy a MBP for 2D/3D work the height of only 900 REALLY sucks, period! The 1050 of the next higher resolution come in VERY handy. And this is exactly what Apple will do when updating the screen of the MBP.

Sorry, this is no argument, this is archology - imagine me laughing while crying while reading this.

What´s your point actually? The industry decided to adopt 1680x1050 as the new standard for highend notebooks already and I really don´t see people crying like "no, give us lower resolutions!".

 

Basically Im going to make a point here:

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

There is nothing to upgrade to......period.
All is a matter of opinion some like one resolution some like another.
The MB will get an update to Santa Rosa but, there is nothing to upgrade to on the MBP.
Now stop trolling.

 

The macbook actualy NEED a refresh. It's one of the few 13" to still have that crappy GMA 950... GOD ! This integrated graphic chip SUCK ! The x3100 is a huge step ahead.

And if I remember, there was once a time were the iBook got a better processor than the powerbook.

 

You can always set lower res if you really need to. But 1440x900 is really weak, considering most of high-end 15" come with 1680x1050.

 

No, this is not true. The MBP is up-to-date in terms of hardware, while the MacBook is not. The MacBook's possible update does not mean the MBP will be updated as well. First of all, there isn't enough new technology out there that the MBP could be updated with; it already has Santa Rosa, DX 10 graphics and LED-backlighting.

Secondly, the last MBP update was in June, and it was a pretty major update. Therefore, an update in October/November would be too soon.

On the other hand, the MacBook's last update was in May, and it was barely an update; it was just a price drop (or "get more for the same price"), really. The last real hardware update of the MacBook was back in 2006.

You speak of the possible increase from 1440x900 to 1680x1050 resolution on the MBP; yeah, this will probably happen soon, but that in itself is not enough to warrant a MBP update.

So I don't see your point, but I don't understand why you think there MUST be a MBP update if the MacBook is updated later this month or next month, because frankly, the MBP had a pretty recent major update and its hardware is already the industry's latest.

 

You can use a lower resolution on an LCD if you don't mind crappy, blurry images. Yes, 1680x1050 is the standard for high-end 15.4" notebooks, and it is the resolution I would prefer. But that doesn't make it the best choice for every notebook. OS X scales DPI better than Windows, which is also a consideration. You can do more with less resolution in OS X.

Besides, people doing a lot of 2D and 3D work are going to go with the 17" version with the 1920x1200 screen more often than not, because that resolution is essential for full 1080p video editing and 3D gaming animation. This resolution is not commonly available on 15.4" notebooks anymore (was on Dells a few years ago). Apple isn't stupid.

And there will likely be no Macbook Pro update soon. There's really no hardware to update it with. If anything, you'll see screen upgrades, like a higher res on the 15" and LED for the 17".

 

My thoughts exactly.

 

Just some ideas of what to update the MBP with:

1. new revision of LED screen, finally 1680x1050
2. HDMI
3. new housing/case/design
4. new port layout (cause of 3) and added ports (USB)
5. HDD refresh (>120/160)
6. VRAM size: could be a real thing to upgrade to 256/512 instead of 128/256.

All this could happen, so please stop telling me there is nothing to upgrade to, because there are obviously things that could be done. No major redesign before Penryn, I agree, but still plenty of opportunities for smaller upgrades.

 

Well, those features aren't enough to justify an update in itself. Plus, with Penryn being released in early 2008, how could Apple update the MBP later this month/early next month, and then update again, possibly as early as January 2008? It won't work.

Apple has to keep the MBP as up-to-date as possible, and they will want to update the MBP with Penryn quickly after the launch. Should such a MBP update happen in the next few weeks, then the next update couldn't happen until say March, without being "too soon since the last update".

 

Let's go reverse order - there is no 512mb gddr3 so no possible update here(and I wouldn't want 512mb ddr2, no way)
HDD? you can install larger hdd if you opt for it

2-4 is a very major update and why would apple do it now - it can wait till penryn/montevina.

res is just an option not a requirement...
and why would apple bother?

 

If you combine some of the things I listed it´s well worth an update. But I see it´s hard to justify a new revision without adding at least some mhz to cpu for marketing purposes.

I don´t see a problem there. When there´s an MBP update this year it´s not likely to bring Penryn already, I see that, too. But what´s wrong with updating the MBP with some minor features like the one I listed. Your only argument against this just "Apple hasn´t done so before".

This is exactly my point. If there is no update for the MBP before x-mas it just won´t cell right. And Christmas is a strong argument in my opinion.

"Apple hasn´t done so before" <-> This is just not convincing. Like I tried to express I think the situation now (after a MB update and especially with all the big brands bringing all the SR highend notebooks) is like never before.

Not even close. With the exception of no. 3 these things have to be considered features and are no big deal to realize.

It´s no option, it´s a must. Apple cannot keep 1400x900. Next update where screen is to be updated, too, will bring >1400x900.

What makes you think so? Plenty of gfx cards out there with even more than 512MB GDDR3. It´s no big deal to equip a 8600GT with 512mb instead of 256mb or crappy 128mb.

Sure you can, but I wasn´t talking about after market upgrades or what you could actually do with your MBP if you like, but instead I was speculating about what upgrades would make sense.

 

LOL this thread is getting funny

 

I still don't understand your fighting point, xGeistx.

Beyond all, this is the main point. Apple has to keep its MBP updates at least a few months apart, or it will be criticized for isolating the customers who purchased the MBP by releasing a new one just a month or two after releasing another new one.

Obviously, any update this year cannot bring in Penryn, as it isn't even released yet. So why in the world, would Apple update the MBP in October/November, only to update again in January? What about the customers who purchase the MBP between that time, think about the fury and frustration that the all new, just released MBP they bought just a month ago is already outdated?

It won't happen. Any of the features you listed, if happens, will most likely be a part of the Penryn update. The MacBook being updated does not mean the MBP needs to be updated. The MBP is already using up-to-date hardware, its pointless to advertise the update with the main changes being these minor features. Its just going to cause problems, as Apple will either need to release another MBP update within two-three months of the last one (which would infuriate customers), or they wouldn't be able to release a Penryn MBP until March or so, which would also look bad for them. It won't happen.

 

The fact that there is no laptop which has 512mb gddr3 8600gt as far as I know. Do you know of one?

 

Yeah, even the G1S' graphics card is only 256 MB 8600M GT DDR3. Its Turbo Memory that brings it up to 512 MB, but the card itself is 256 MB, same as MBP.

And what upgrades would make sense? Let me tell you, the minor features you listed aren't enough to justify an update of the MBP this month/next month, when there's a major hardware update that for sure will happen in early 2008.

I don't see why Apple won't wait until then, instead of disrupting production lines, having to train staff to understand how the new MBP works only to have them learn another new MBP just two months later, and having to address customers who are angry that just two months after the MBP was updated its being updated again, etc. Its too much trouble, Apple won't do it. They'll just wait for Penryn.

 

What do you want me to do Sam? I personally think it needs to be updated and I for sure made myself clear why I think this is. It is my "fighting point" that I don´t see i.e. myself buying an - in my eyes - outdated (resolution, USB ports, hdd size, etc) notebook during let´s say christmas time this year. If you have to pay premium you very soon get used to demand premium in terms of hardware.

 

Alright well I didn't want this to become a fighting thread .

So some people think in their opinion that the MBP should be updated, and some say there is no reason for it to be. Cool! That's settled .

Now, back to the OT: Would it be wise to just buy the MB when Santa Rosa is installed, and not worry about penryn? Because I don't really see it as much of a change.

 

That is pretty much my plan. I am waiting for LED/x3100/SR macbook update.
Or 1680x1050 MBP update. Whichever comes first. I personally tend to think Penryn update will bring a marginal improvement. However Montevina might be something.. but then it's another 3 quarters away.

 

Well, I guess we won't see eye to eye on this...but yeah, looking at what Apple's done before, and what Apple would do that would be in their best interests, I don't believe they would update the MBP later this year. If you feel that they will, then that is your prediction, and I'll have mine .

 

How the end user thinks and how a corporation thinks are two very different things.

If Apple was to upgrade more frequently, what would they do with the older models they have left sitting around? Sell them a loss? What would they do with all the parts for the current generation that may no longer be used on an upgraded model? Write them off?

A corporation, Apple or otherwise, is going to do what's in its best interest.

Intel, for example, has been commercially producing Penryn chips for nearly a year now, yet Intel still hasn't released them because they want to sell off as much current Core 2 Duo chips as possible before releasing what will be seen as a 'newer' product, that consumers will consider better. If Intel had released Penryn 6 months ago, chances are there'd be a large amount of Core 2 chips that Intel would need to sell at a loss or write off, since Penryn would become more popular.

Anyway, Apple can't upgrade their products every time something new comes out, or every time a major selling date rolls along (beginning of school, Christmas, graduation time, etc). It wouldn't be financially feasible for a company to do so.

 

Most other vendors do update their system specs almost constantly. That's because (IMO) there's more direct competition. With Apple, for people who really want Mac OS X, there's not much competition except other Apple products. So as a cost-saving thing (and possibly other reasons) they only update the specs every once in a while. And they tend to offer a good value at the beginning of the update cycle, and a not-so-great value toward the end of the cycle.

 

Hi,

read this thread with a lot of interest, well from what I have gathered elsewhere I d just like to offer my opinion on things lol

Right, Macbook Pro update. This will be updated with Penryn in early 2008 - that a given I believe, intel roadmap plays a big deal on the MBP. I personally think that a serious update happening anytime before then is unlikely, as already mentioned by others - there is too little to be updated with.

The thing that I m most interested in, is the case/design update for the macbook pro. This is rumoured everywhere and whats noted amongst other things is the shift to darker colours like the new imac.

As you are all aware, the macbook is due a update - this is suggested to be to move the internals to santa rosa.

But more importantly is that it seems that it seems so LIKELY that we would be looking at a case change (plastic build not as sturdy i ve read - move to alluminium?). Again working on rumours here colours changing to a darker shade.

Since we should expect the macbook to be sorted before the macbook pro, and if it turns out that the case design has been changed to the theme of the imacs / ipods colours, should we not foresee that the macbook pro designed to be overhauled - to be in line with rest of apple's range?

So, what i m saying is that the best indication whether the macbook pro case will be changed is based on what will be happening to the macbook?


Ok, was that too obvious? and that i ve just written a load on nonsense...

 

I didn't really understand that, Rics...

Anyways, the MacBook, frankly is the one that looks "out-of-place" in the Mac lineup right now...the MBP fits in. The MacBook is the only remaining non-aluminum Mac (as the iMac has gone aluminum as well now), so most likely the MacBook would turn aluminum to make the whole Mac lineup aluminum. However, its worth noting that Apple has had inconsistencies before, so don't expect it to absolutely happen (for example, they updated the iPod Nano and Shuffle to second generation "silver", but the 5th generation iPod Video still had the old design).

 

Yeah, I think that was kind of what i was trying to say. That if we see the macbook with a case design - we should hopefully expect the mbp to expect one too to follow the revamped theme.

But as u have mentioned, it might not always be the case.... lol