MBP 15" Throttle down to 0.8 ghz?

UPDATE

So i got back from the apple store, they told me "No problem system is fine".
The issue was thermal/throttle related. So i asked, why I am able to replicate it on OSX/Windows but you guys cant? Then i replicated the issue in 5 minutes.

Running OSX I opened DukeNukemForever, + CPU stress test+ youtube video.
System broke 98c in <5 minutes, then this let me prove the throttle connection. I busted out my intel whitepapers to prove that the system throttles @ 95c and will thermally shutdown at 100c. Told them, the system will break/die because of the 100c boiling point temps, explained that if your able to boil water off the cpu, its far too hot for the solder and other components inside the unit.

When i showed them this, they accepted the unit back for inspection/correction a second time.
Macbook pro 15" the 2011oct units seem to be throttled, I did the same test on a display unit and it did the same thing 100c, then throttled down to snail speeds.
So I assume apple wont be able to fix an engineering design flaw (Issue present in all three systems i've tested) in the thermal design, because it would require a complete redesign, not just thermal paste; the heatsinks become thermally saturated currently, thus the system throttles. Apple is relying on throttling to keep the system cool, however, it throttles FAR below stock 2.4 ghz clocks (0.8ghz). Apple falsely advertised cpu speeds, when you need it you only get 1/3rd the advertised speed after throttle.

I believe all 15" macs from OCT2011 (current model) have this issue, if you actually look for it like I did.
If you own one and need to see this for yourself, PM me and i'll give you some software links to demonstrate this
on your units (Cpu stress test, monitoring software etc)

I'll report back when I find out the next step apple takes to 'fix' my unit from throttling.



_____________________________________________________________________________________________________

My macbook has serious issues, first off.. the system fans ramp up to 6200rpm doing simple tasks like windows updates.

Then when you play any gpu intensive task the FPS will go from great, down to terrible hitching after awhile. Looked and ran bootcamp, noticed with cpu-z the system cpu clock drops to 1.2-0.8ghz when playing a game. Basically getting less then half of my 2.4ghz i7 speed. This causes everything to become CPU bound when you actually need to use the system and it runs like crap because of it.

What should/can I do? I have applecare and it seems like this is a big issue with Sandy Bridge cpus and not the mac itself.
This happened on my first 2011 macbook too, so it seems like a system wide problem?

temps are mid-high 70s during this time, after spiking to 100c (210f)

HELP.

Click image link for screen shot of the problem.
[IMG=http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/4728/throttlewhilegaming0900.png][/IMG]

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

 

are you on the battery?

 

Of course not, AC powered.

It seems that a lot of sandy bridge systems have this issue when the system is under load. Throttling problem, windows 7 gaming + cpu-z makes it 100% clear that it throttles down to 1.2-0.8 range.

 

The sandy bridge version of the MBP has a thermal paste flaw. You should buy arctic silver 5 and repaste it (find the guide at macrumors).

Also in windows you can download "speedfan" and set both fan to a minimun of 3500 during work

If in mac use "SMCfancontol"

hope this helps

EDIT: also i don't recommend you use TriXX, use MSI afterburner (w/ unofficial OC mode, find it somewhere on the HP laptop boards)

 

That's a pretty intense suggestion considering apple solders the cpu to the motherboard. Can you link to the macrumors guide which details how to do this?

 

I'm not pointing out the CPU, it's the thermal paste.

15" MacBook Pro (SB) Thermal application/guide - Page 13 - MacRumors Forums

^ how to repaste

also, 73 c is not a hign temp. try using Throttlestop

 

got it. sweet.

 

Throttle stop doesn't work, 73c is low, but its low because my system is borked running at 800mhz, its slow as hell when i actually need the speed.

The system breaks 100c usually, then throttles down to very very slow speed, not really the solution I'm looking for. I'm not clocking the gpu, might down volt to be safe though.

Still, why did I spend thousands on a 15" that can't even use the components inside of it without taking them down to 1/3rds advertised speed.

 

Try cleaning the fans out, my 2011 MBP 15 never got that hot. Also, remeber your warranty. It is possible that you got a MBP with a really bad thermal paste job. Just use it till it burns up and Apple will replace it(as long as it's still under warranty of course).

http://forum.notebookreview.com/app...-2-00ghz-hd-6490m-gaming-graphics-review.html

 

Its not the fans, unit is brand new less then 30 days old.
I have Applecare, and will likely go in tonight to get it 'repaired'.
I'll see if my unit is the reason or the design itself.

....800mhz, should of never bought a macbook this year.

 

Since many(many) people game on the MBP 15, I'm inclined to believe it's your Macbook.

 

But do they look, or even notice this problem?

Only reason i'm lead to say that is because its my second unit that has done this. Third time will make or break it for me.

So what your telling me is that when you game on a 15" MBP 2011 it doesnt down lock to 800mhz on BF3 for example? I hope it was two duds I had, because im extremely disappointed with the performance when im cpu bound.
Thanks for the help, i'll report back when i find out what happens.

 

Many, many MBP 15 owners discover that the heatsink and fan that Apple is using on their CPU/GPU is completely inadequate. This becomes very obvious if you try to use both the CPU and GPU at the same time such as when gaming. You are not alone when you see sky high temperatures. If everything is perfect and you are using a heavy duty notebook cooler or live in the Arctic, maybe you can avoid the Intel designed 100C thermal throttling temperature but your CPU core temperature is still going to be way up there when gaming.

ThrottleStop can not do anything once you hit the 100C limit but it works fine on the MBP when running Windows once you know how to use it. I have helped other users with their MBP overheating issues. Some people use ThrottleStop to run their CPU at a lower than normal speed to avoid the excessive heat that is created when turbo boost is being used on modern Sandy Bridge CPUs.

 

Apple tried to blame it on windows, they asked to leave it for dignostics.
Somehow I know they wont address the throttling issues to 800mhz.

I need OSX realtime cpu clockrate software so i can prove them wrong.

 

Not to sound brash, but if it runs fine in OS X they are not going to go any further. Windows is not a supported system. They give you the tools to install it and the drivers to run it but you're on your own after that and honestly you can't blame them.

 

I'd agree if i had driver issues, software issues.

But the ONLY reason windows is being used is to pull Hardware information that OSX is too gimmped, and limited to show you. Basically the problem is not possible to be shown on OSX because of poor software support.

Windows is being used to pull the hardware id info in real time, showing me what is occuring to the hardware inside the system on 100% load. Software cant be the cause for a built and designed hardware throttle method used in Intel cpu's. Software can cause more load, which is what I've done on windows and OSX, 100% cpu usage is 100% reguardless of your OS; so when I use that 100% on OSX/Windows both show the symptoms of throttling, only windows can actually 'prove' the throttle in raw data. OSX keeps you in the dark, so your happy with the 2000 dollar+ investment.

Also to support this, ALOT of sandy bridge systems have the same symptoms that I have, further supporting my point of view.

Apple is trying to pass the buck by looking at windows and stopping at that, but windows runs fine it isnt SOFTWARE related problem; its the (CPU-Z) (Tmonitor) realtime clock rate that is really showing the hardware issue. The system overheats, then throttles the cpu to 800mhz is the problem, this problem i've seen across sandybridge cpu's so i know it isnt 'software' related.

How can windows force a cpu to throttle to 800mhz? It isnt, its the heat inside the system doing it while on load, when OSX shows similar symptoms but without visual verification of this problem. Windows is 100% needed to show the thermal/hardware flaws because OSX has no software to show the user this, thus in OSX Q & A problems can go unseen, in some cases for a very long time (intill you install windows to see it). OSX has NO realtime clockrate software for sandybridge cpu's avaliable. Thus, OSX hides an obvious thermal engineering flaw.

 

JUST FYI as I'm not sure if you know this or not, but it's not the fault of the CPU (I mean unless it's somehow a defective CPU). It's almost certainly the cooling system or paste job or whatever.

Underclocking themselves both when idle and if they get too hot is normal for CPUs for...maybe a decade now. I've got a Sandy Bridge notebook that's literally been running Folding @ Home on the CPU and GPU 24/7 for two weeks, and not only has it not underclocked itself, it appears to be maintaining a 500MHz overclock, despite all four CPUs being engaged 100%...so it's definitely not a Sandy Bridge problem.

 

I know heat is the main reason for this, however i know this issue is present on most sandybridge units (laptops) so the sensitive throttling may be a cause, but isnt the reason why; Heat is at the end of the day. I agree with you.

However, how can you be pleased with your CPU running at 500mhz? How can anyone be happy when you buy a MBP for thousands and your CPU is running 1/5th the speed? I'm not because it limits EVERYTHING i can do on the machine. I'm not too pissed about heat or noise; i can live with that. Just the extreme cpu throttling because of poorly engineered cooling. I payed for a 2.4ghz processor, not a 800mhz unit that limits all the other hardware because of it.

Apple based their cooling solution on throttling, which isnt somthing Intel even recommends.

 

Point is it's not really the CPU's fault. It CAN be cooled right. I don't know how the MBP is supposed to respond but sounds like it should at least be cooling better than yours is!

Sorry, I guess I wasn't clear. It's not running at 500Mhz, it's running at 500MHz OVER it's default clock speed. Like running Folding @ Home on the CPU and GPU, which uses all four cores at 100%, it's not only able to maintain it's correct clock speed, but actually overclock itself quite a lot and maintain that (which did kind of surprise me!) It's not a Macbook Pro though.

 

Im not sure its a SB chip issue either, I run a few machines from other mfgrs that have never throttled including, high end workstations, full volt sub 14" i7 portables and even a couple cheapo best buy specials. I can maintain a 600mhz overclock on cpu and 300 on gpu on one machine regularly running at 100% load for 50 hours straight

 

I haven't used/pushed a 15" SB version... but my 17"er has no issues close to this. I push it vey hard in several things including gaming and it will get really hot and the fans go max, but I've gamed with the system maxed for several hours straight with never any throttling or problems.

It might be something specific to just that one laptop.

Maybe find a game in OSX that pushes the system hard that shows the symptoms of throttling, even if you cannot check if thats whats causing it, so you can show the techs it gets ultra ultra slow and has problems while gaming?

 

Try porting Metro 2033 benchmark to OS X

Or try
-Cinebench
-Far Cry 2 (TPB Mac-Port)



OP can you check your heatsink thermal paste and dust buildup? I know it's new and everything, but just try.

Also download "MacFan" and set both fans to 6200 (MAX)

 

Brought it to Futureshop to pop open, dont have the T6 torx bits around.
As I thought, its 100% clean, including the fans.

I'm not going to check the heatsink; i'll tell apple to replace the paste. Going to download Starcraft 2 and see how it pushes the laptop.
I have L4D2 that I can try. I'll also max out core 3/4 if the app only uses 2cores so I can push the system into throttle.

Going to pickup my unit tonight, hopefully I dont leave without the problem being solved (if i do i'll get OSX games to prove the issue). Have a ton of research to scare away the 'geniuses' so i can talk to a tech or manager.

 

L4D2 and SC2 are both OS X games. I'm not sure if that was your point, but you could use either of those (fyi if you didn't know)

 

That was my point, to use it on OSX.

So i got back from the apple store, they told me "No problem system is fine".
The issue was thermal/throttle related. So i asked, why I am able to replicate it on OSX/Windows but you guys cant? Then i replicated the issue in 5 minutes.

Running OSX I opened DukeNukemForever, + CPU stress test+ youtube video.
System broke 98c in <5 minutes, then this let me prove the throttle connection. I busted out my intel whitepapers to prove that the system throttles @ 95c and will thermally shutdown at 100c. Told them, the system will break/die because of the 100c boiling point temps, explained that if your able to boil water off the cpu, its far too hot for the solder and other components inside the unit.

When i showed them this, they accepted the unit back for inspection/correction a second time.
Macbook pro 15" ALL of them are throttled, I did the same test on a display unit and it did the same thing 100c, then throttled down to snail speeds.
So I assume apple wont be able to fix an engineering design flaw in the thermal design, because it would require a complete redesign, not just thermal paste; the heatsinks become thermally saturated currently, thus the system throttles. Apple is relying on throttling to keep the system cool, however, it throttles FAR below stock 2.4 ghz clocks. Apple falsely advertised cpu speeds, when you need it you only get 1/3rd the advertised speed after throttle.

I believe all 15" macs from OCT2011 (current model) have this issue, if you actually look for it like I did.
If you own one and need to see this for yourself, PM me and i'll give you some software links to demonstrate this
on your units (Cpu stress test, monitoring software etc)

I'll report back when I find out the next step apple takes to 'fix' my unit from throttling.

 

What do you mean by "if you actually look for it"?. As you saw from my review I posted a few pages back, my 2011 MBP 15 had no such issues.

Anyway, the next Ivy Bridge Macbooks should run a bit cooler. I think you just got a machine with a bad paste job.

 

Have you stressed your system out properly to reproduce this issue? OSX has no realtime clock reading software that works on lion, so you wont see the 800mhz unless running on windows. You can cross check the temps with windows-osx to verify though thermally. Run proper stress software, and overwhelm the system for it to be produced, basically maxing out cpu/gpu @ same time to 100% load. I've been able to hit these temps on three units. I am yet to see one I cant replicate the problem on. Just a matter setting up your system to find the problem properly imo.

running tmonitor, DNF or SC2, run terminal commands to max out 8 cores/threads 8x terminal windows with cpu stress commands. Run your game and terminal commands, a few youtube hd videos and then fullscreen the game for 10-20minutes, temps will spike to 90+c just check your Tmonitor history graphs minimizing will not give a true result (unless you have dual screen so you can view this in realtime).

I'll go get a swamp out unit, and reproduce the issue again for everyone on a 4th unit for everyone this week; reproducing the problem on 4 units should lay it to rest as a widespread problem. I'm going try and get a refund on the Pentium III, I mean sandybridge quad that runs at PIII clockrates.

Cheers.

 

To reiterate what is in the thread below:

In Furmark the GPU hit 88C.
Black Ops it ran at a consistent 85C after the fans sped up.
In Prime95 it hit 100C, but it did not throttle(ran at a turbo speed of 2.2GHz). There's a proof of this in the thread below, I provided a screen shot with Prime95 running and Intel's Turbo Boost Monitor.

But, lets be honest, we aren't sitting around running Prime95 all day. Normal tasks, like gaming, don't make the laptop run too hot(less than 90C).

Here's the review: http://forum.notebookreview.com/app...-2-00ghz-hd-6490m-gaming-graphics-review.html

 

These 15" Macbook Pros are throttling under load, assuming proper thermal paste is applied, due to an inadequate power supply, period. You just can't put a 2.2/2.4 GHz quad core processor and a fairly high strung dedicated GPU behind an 85 watt AC adapter. My Kill-a-Watt shows this notebook can pull nearly 100 watts under load easily. No one noticed their battery slowly depleting while gaming for an extended period of time?

 

Try running BF3 if you have it, it seems to be the BEST test by far, btw you have a unit that predates the oct2011 unit with the 6770/6750. I think the lower end gpu might not put off as much heat as the oct2011 systems do? or use as much wattage on load?


I have no experience with the early 2011 macs, only the ones being sold currently in stores and the oct2011 units on display. So i'll correct myself, this issue seems present on ALL oct2011 units that i've tested so far.

 

Can you please take a screenshot/picture for me? I would LOVE to show apple this.

PM sent.

 

I only had that unit for a week, but next time I purchase one I'll run some more tests. How many Oct 2011 units have you tested?

The GPU uses a separate fan, so it doesn't affect CPU temps. But, yeah, the GPU probably doesn't put off as much heat as the 6750/70.

They won't give a crap. I'm just hoping that Ivy Bridge runs much cooler

 

I have tested one unit for 12days and the current for a month and the third being a display unit I spent 3 hours with replicating the issue.
I'll try to swamp out the unit so i will have had three units in my possession for a number of days of solid stressing, plus the apple store demo.


The gpu/cpu thermal design is interconnected, thermally the heat will be shared across both heatsinks, I think this might be a big flaw with the thermal design when both gpu/cpu load it.

http://ipodtouchtricks.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/macbook-pro-2011-heat-sink.jpg

They wont give a crap, but when they charge a 1000+ premium...well they cant brush the problem off like a company like Acer and get away with it without a little resistance.

My goal is to get Apple to admit the issue.

 

Many laptops interconnect the heatsinks like that... its not an issue.

 

It is an issue, thermally it is incapable to hold enough heat away from the cpu/gpu. They have too much heat from the cpu/gpu for their current cooling solution to handle, thats why I can boil water off my cpu with the temps it hits. 100c.

 

You know, that reminds me that Apple's stuff used to underclock itself to 1Ghz if you didn't have the battery in-presumably because of this. Of course now the batteries are (I guess) sealed.

And a similar system from HP shipped with a 90 watt PSU typically, but someone showed it could theoretically pull more than that too, so they were recommending HP's 120 watt PSU.

 

I've seen this happen on the MBP 17, not on the 15 yet though.

The 6750/70 consumes 30 watts max, the CPU 45 watts, that only leaves 10 watts for everything else.

The HD 6490M I had in my MBP 15 only consumes 15 watts. That's probably why I didn't see any throttling because of power or temps.

 

while your right this temp is too high, its not for any type of "boiling point" reason... none of the components are made out of water, and all of them have a MUCH higher boiling point than 100º ... many electronics are made to run hotter than 100, and even Intel's older Core 2 Duo designs had a max op temp of 105... don't worry about water boiling point, if you go on about that trying to explain it to people that way, it'll make you sound... less informed.

 

I agree the boiling point has nothing to do with it.

Solder melts around 175+ C, much higher than water. It would not be a good material component choice if it melted at a temperature that was within the maximum operating temperature.

At heat levels outside of the safe operating range, the heat itself may cause a (short-term) functional change in the interaction of the circuitry - it can cause unusual and undetermined behavior. This is because the circuit is tightly tuned to operate at high speed in a narrow range of conditions, and heat is energy, and it can affect how those electrons move and interact. this would generally show itself as a system crash or blue screen. the cpu should also shut itself off at this point. when you remove the heat from the system, it will return to normal.

at significantly higher temperatures and/or prolonged temperatures, you could cause physical damage to the components, by melting. but not 100 C.

 

Have a hard time buying that, i did not say solder/components melt @ 100c, but it can and will cause heat fractures, stress on the solder, and components overtime ending (Killing not melting) the life of the unit far sooner then if it was properly cooled that is what i was implying with my previous comment.

100c is terrible temp if a laptop can hit this, its not normal and has never been a normal temp for a system to hit, unless it has issues/flaws, 100c will shorten their life no ifs & ands about it in a consumer grade laptop. Boiling point is a perfectly fine analogy to better help obtuse Apple employees understand the amount of heat in the system, I have manufacturer temp specs to help back up the 100c seriousness, Apple listened.

Regardless, its far too slow when it throttles. It throttles because of poor design in cooling. Minor load (gpu+50-70% cpu) = 98-100c Heat = 800mhz Throttling = Slow Pentium III 800mhz pos Laptop.

 

I dunno.. all my Macbook Pros when pushed hard can get in the 80s, and even the 90s if I let the fans go on automatic, but it never throttles on me at all... and usually the max it'll stay for long periods is around 85 with max fan speed.

 

This isn't correct.

 

Actually no. A four(4) core processor running at 800MHz is much faster than a single core processor running at 800MHz.

 

Not to mention there are a lot of other features in a processor besides the clock speed, features from today which wouldn't exist in a P3.

 

Yeaaaaah, but that's missing the point.

 

No it was on point to the comment about his processor being like a P3. As to the original topic, sure it doesn't make it better and the laptop shouldn't overheat but it's completely off base to say the processor is in essence a P3.

 

I think you're being waaaaay too literal there, but...

 

It is, 100c is too hot for solder to be subjected to over a long period of time.
Too hot isnt implying melting, its implying too hot for reliability, that the temp will cause issues.
Which it currently has.

 

Please post links/sources/proof.

 

LoL obviously thats like 85nm tech vs 32nm tech. Read in between the lines.