Mac build quality?

I actually never said that I was thankful for the limited extent of the damage due to the "superior" Mac quality. In fact, I stated the opposite, and expressed my disappointment in that even though uMBPs look and feel really solid, the aluminum chassis is more prone to dings, scratches, damages, etc compared to other brands/models.

Your comparison with a Lenovo doesn't seem to be fair, since they are designed for business environment (e.g., road warriors). Any consumer laptop (which my 15" MBP belongs to) would have sustained a damage in that fall.

 

Macbook Pro. So I must compare with a machine half the price? Or only ones with Hello Kittys on the lids?

I wasn't comparing with a Lenovo actually, but even Lenovo has a design shtick, and every single one of their lineup is as consumer as the MBP is as far as a logical version of your interpretation of consumer goes. Apple-users may not call it design as such, but the styling of the hardware and the way it's built is as deliberate as the Apples, but for a different set of clientele - one which may be argued is better able / more qualified to discern the meaning of 'build quality' as opposed to 'a solid face'.

Make up your minds please, Apple fans. And if there's anything unfair, it's far more in the ludicrous ways (Appleinsider being the crazed extension of this) in which many of the most enthusiast among you insist on replying to or starting these comparisons with unsubstantiated rumour, googled (non-)expertise mixed with what I said here - just like many equally fanboi-like Apple detractors who have no experience of 'the other side' either.

Let me know if there's a Macbook SuperPro, Mac SuperPro or Mac Godlike, would you?

 

Ha!

I just noticed the hat on Vogelbung's avatar is not a hat but a rice bowl!!

OK, seriously. I noticed this discussion overall has very little substance. It is one person's word against another for the most part. The only thing with teeth is the component topic.

And Vogelbung's comparison of Mac build quality to something equally priced. I'll take that as solid.

On another note, Vogelbung's expectations of a laptop might not be unrealistic, but they definitely aren't normal or average, which can throw off the discussion. For the most part, we expect unknowns in a discussion to be normalized, like everyone here types using a western keyboard, they have ten fingers, two eyes, and has graduated kindergarten.

Otherwise it can seriously throw off a discussion when a guy says, "OMG the keyboard is SOOO hard to use."

"Um it's like every other keyboard."

"NO! My keyboard is different because I have no arms!!!"

"Oh humm, probably should of mentioned that first."

It goes a long way when you know what the other person expects out of a conversation. I've been in plenty of threads with Vogelbung and I still have no idea what he does or what he expects out of a laptop.

 

Haha,so true,all the components are the same in a pc notebook yet,you pay $999+ for your mac book,but a pc one would only be $699, has the same stuff but diff branding and no Steve Jobs apple tax.

 

Sorry, I meant to say "Latitude" (had a long flight yesterday). I dont think the price or the wording (e.g., "Pro" in it) should be the only criteria when comparing two different models. Just like many "elite" laptops not being even close, or the "server grade" HD in Time Capsules not being any different than consumer products. Your expectations from a MacBook "Pro" seem to be based on the price point and the marketing. When it comes to Latitude computers, I dont think you can replace any of those with a MacBook Pro and vice versa in terms of what they were designed/intended to do...

I am not an Apple fanboy. We recently bought two MBPs after using Windows laptops/desktops for years. My desktop is a DELL XPS410 and will not be replaced with an iMac. As surfasb mentioned, these posts dont go anywhere after one point, and it seems like we've reached that point on page 3 already

 

You guys must have exposed laptops with no chassis. Internals make up only a part of the laptop cost.

 

Because a unibody casing & a shiny apple fruit branding costs upwards of $400??

Putting laptop stuff in a old imac G3 casing from ebay would be interesting...

 

Remember, you're not just paying for the notebook Jeeves, you're paying for stellar service and the best support in the industry!

 

myself and personal experiences shall keep our mouth shut

 

imo macs have the best laptop build quality

 

None of the 'service at top' joke-hey-it's-an-Apple-story-so-it-will-get-picked-up-a-lot-surveys actually take into account the uplifted service plans for other makers. In terms of the paid-for support I get, the only one worse than Apple is Dell's XPS and Sony.

HP's Elitebook support, Dell's Precision / Latitude support, Lenovo's Thinkpad support - all are significantly better than Apple in terms of turning around my MBP/A's in a reasonable time if - and this if is a much bigger if than Apple hardware - it goes wrong.

 

How can people think Apple has the "best support in the industry?"

Almost every "PC" manufacturer offers next day onsite repair. Does Apple?

The amount of logistics that goes into that level of support goes way beyond a pimplely-face kid at the Genius Bar at the mall.

Apple is good at what it offers, but what it offers is only the basics.

 

They are talking for the consumer market.

Next day/same day onsite repair is pretty much standard in the enterprise market.

 

Sorry fellow, but despite your anecdotal hyperbole, Apple continues to score a the top in every category possible. If it means anything to you, I'm no Apple fan and think their website is a labyrinth of confusion. Still, I can't dismiss the fact that Apple has scored #1 in every comparison publication I've ever read. In spite of my personal feeling about the company, I just can't ignore that. And neither should you.

 

For the record, I have Windows 7 on three machines; A PC desktop, a PC laptop, and a MacBook Pro.

The only machine having stability issues with Windows 7.. is the MacBook Pro.

 

And you are surprised?!?!?

 

Again for the consumer market. They do pretty well.

Nothing wrong with doing well with amateurs though.

 

You mean "non-geeks", right?

 

You think the milling of an aluminum block is cheap? How about the R&D required to fit the same components in your 2" plastic brick into a .95" aluminum laptop?

So yes, it costs that much extra. You keep your brick of a laptop.

 

Nope I mean amateurs. While it has a negative connotation to it, formally it means you have no direct pay or formal training in the area of study. Nothing wrong with that.

the 2" plastic bricks also cost half as much as your laptop. This seems to be the matchups Apple likes. Cause they know they can't compete against equally priced laptops. Why don't you R&D that.

If you want to compete in the Major Leagues, you don't advertise your wins against the Little Leagues.

 

This makes no sense at all...

 

This doesn't even make sense.

PC laptops cost half as much? I don't think so.

If you think Apple laptops cost a lot because of branding, I'm guessing you've never heard of the Dell Adamo or HP Envy.

I bought the Dell 1520 when it was first released for $1300 and now I replaced that with my 13" mbp. Quite honestly the mbp build is in a different league and many galaxies beyond the Dell.

I still have the Dell, but every time I use it the thickness and weight of it is so cumbersome that I want to smash it with a sledge hammer.

 

The reason is simple. From a business standpoint, if you're able to price it high & the items/products still sell like hotcakes, does it even make sense to lower the price?

 

I was ready to start quoting the whole thread so you can see where this discussion started and where it is going. Neither the Adamo, the Envy or the 1520 are 2" thick. So they aren't the droids I'm looking for.

Lets compare build quality between laptops of the same price. Seriously, my XT2 priced more than the MBP. I'll gladly throw that thing across the room versus the MBP.

It's soft aluminum that will bend and disfigure. And who knows what will happen to your data. I'll take some cracked plastic and even exercise Dell's next day warranty just to rub it in.

We don't even want to compare throwing the Thinkpad.......

The Envy and Adamo IS just like Apple. They prioritize form over function.

Edit:

And milling an aluminum block is cheap. Once the machine is tooled, it is an automated process. They've been milling aluminum blocks since long before you were born.

 

Never said Adamo/Envy was 2". The 1520 is closer to 2" than it is to 1". Most PC laptops aren't 2", but very very few are even 1".

XT2 same price? It is $5k dude. Your math must be off cause you think a PC laptop is half the price, but the XT2 is the same price as a mbp. So in order to compare build quality you had to bring up a $5k laptop even though you've been championing lower cost PC laptops.

Yeah that makes sense.

Another poster said Macs cost more because of brand that is why I brought up the Envy/Adamo. Even though they're PC's, they cost just as much.

And you know why it costs that much? Because it costs a ton of money to make something small.

The same thing can be said for the plastic bodies for PC laptops. I can guarantee you that milling is nowhere cheaper than plastic. Regardless of its costs, the R&D needed to make a thin laptop costs money. If it were so cheap why aren't there more 1" laptops?

 

All you need is one laptop.

:laugh:

$5K !!?? Seriously, there is no need to even respond to this.

Like I said, it's form over functionality. True they are PCs, but they are the exceptions rather than the norm. Just like the Dell XTRs. There is a reason why 1" thin laptops aren't in vogue among professionals. Because being thin has little to do with actual productivity. It is purely aesthetics.

There is no doubt the R&D needed to make a thin laptop costs money. The question is what function does a thin laptop offer over say a "fat" laptop? Does having a thinner laptop give you better job offers? Does it impress clients? Maybe it helps you program better code? Or maybe it helps you test better in the GMAT?

A thinner laptop offers none of the above, unlike a custom tailored suit or a good haircut.

But I digress. Thin laptops, let alone ones made of aluminum, do not offer superior protection over the "plastic" $5K :laugh: laptops.

 

http://search.ap.dell.com/results.aspx?s=bsd&c=nz&l=en&cs=nzbsd1&k=dell+xt2&cat=all&x=0&y=0
This is the only Dell XT2 that I can find, were you thinking of something else? If so I don't see it anywhere.

So you agree that thin laptops cost more to produce. Convo over.

All this BS about functionality, doesn't get you a job, blah blah is just noise to me.

The point is that thin laptops cost more, whether this works for you or not does not invalidate this.

 

Click through your search result. This is not the XT2 you are looking for.

Edit: Sorry, I should be more polite to foreigners.

http://www.dell.com/tablet

And how the heck did that come up as your first link?? Sure wasn't through Google, Yahoo or Bing.
/edit:

Sequenced purses cost more to make than regular purse too. Fountain pens cost more to make than regular pens. A diamond studded iPhone costs more to make than a regular iPhone.

But does it offer any real value over something cheaper?

Yeah, cause who wants a functional laptop that increases your productivity!? Such a crazy concept.

We all know thinner laptops costs more to make. And that is exactly our complaint. I think you fail to understand our position. We don't understand why people believe because something is thinner and more expensive it is deemed a "better build quality." For the rest of the world, if you can throw your laptop across the room and the laptop only receives cosmetic, but not functional damage, that would prove build quality.

Only in the laptop market does flexing the keyboard with your bare hands constitute a measurement of build quality. Only in the laptop market does making something out of material akin to tin foil constitute a legitimate measure of build quality.

 

Seriously all are good points wonder why Microsoft won't use this as their Ads to counter the Mac Ads.
Probably some of their OEM partners market their products in the same way (Read:SONY).

 

I found the XT2 through google, but didnt realize that I was not at Dell US. In any case the base model is over 2k with a 1.4 core2. So its not similar in costs or performance at all to a MBP. In fact I'm not sure why you made the comparison since its a tablet.

As for costs, I never said thinner = better build quality. All I said was that thinner = costs more. Because people were complaining why mbps cost so much. The thought of functionality was a non issue.

 

Well, considering this is a thread about build quality, I used the tablet as an example. I suggest you reread the thread and see how we got here.

Tablets are especially vulnerable to drops and bumps because of the way they are used. And the added function of a swivel screen does not help their structural integrity.

All the more reason to stick to a design that gives it durability. Yet Dell does not use a unibody, nor does it use aluminum. The XT2 is incredibly thin, especially for a tablet. It uses a skeleton framework to protect its components.

Plus my XT2 happens to be beside me. So it makes for a good example if I want to throw it to make a point.

The added cost is for glitter and glitz. No one who cares about build quality cares that it is thinner. The old folks who care that it is thinner care about glitter and glitz.

Like I said, thinner costs more, but for what value?

I could add a coat of gold to my laptop. OMG, gold paint costs more!!!!!

Or I could add Ed Hardy designs to my laptop. OMG, Ed Hardy laptop costs more!!!!

 

On the subject of costs...also remember that people are all different.

Some people will think the entry price of a MBP is outrageous for what you get compared to other brands like Dell, or HP, and will always go for the best bang for buck laptop and love them.

On the other hand there are those who do find the price justifiable for whatever reason, buy the Mac, and love them.

Then you get people from each of the above categories fighting over which laptop is better, better built, bang for money etc etc etc...

The bottom line is you are not going to change what the other person believes in / what he thinks is worth the price, so what is the point is fighting?

 

So many people think that just because the macbooks are made of aluminum that they are so much better then a "plastic" computer. I have heard this argument time and time again from people and salesmen. This reminds me of uneducated people that argue that old 70s cars were safer then todays cars becuase they don't have big metal bumpers showing and the new cars use "plastic" bumpers. I have an 8 year old 2inch thick panasonic toughbook cf-50 with plastic exterior, or what many people would call a plastic notebook and this thing has been dropped banged had water spilt on it etc, with the worst being it falling off my lap in my truck onto concrete about a 3 foot fall, and all it has on it is scuff marks all over it no cracks, nothing broken, everything works etc...
For the price point of a macbook I think one can get an equally if not more so durable PC computer with equal quality. I have not kept up to date lately but it probably wound't take much research to prove my point. Post this in a PC forum instead of the mac section where you are getting mostly mac diehards and Iam sure you will get many more examples.

 

It is definitely like two people peeing against the wind but I mean, the problem is that many people insist on airing their lack of knowledge with an almost triumphant air. That is, to be honest, a little offensive to me.

Would it be so bad to be less rabidly affected by the best joined-up, on-message marketing in the biz?

 

I don't mean to offend anyone but I find most of these people to be from Mac Camp.
Because Mac's users follow the everything works mentality.
They don't do tweaking, and OS functionality and hardware hacking.
They seldom go for and explore hackish solution as a result they learn less hidden facts.
Most hackers go for the Window setup+Linux.

 

Part of the problem I suppose is that there's different degrees of lack of knowledge and experience in both camps. So one brand of ignorance counters a different brand from an irreconcilable perspective - which is truly two people peeing into the wind.

 

I'm not here to convince people in the thread. The people here have generally made up their minds. People who post will likely have a opinionated personality and they will not be convinced in a debate, small or large.

People who view this thread may not post their views. Or they may not have their minds made up. Those are the people I'm convincing.

Plus, I can exercise my oratory skills.

 

For me I feel the need to expose Apple Advertising lies or rather exaggerated truths.
Sure you can say that advertising nowadays cannot be trusted hence we should let Apple be.
However you need to consider that those less technical savy do not have the basic knowledge hence they will believe in whatever the ads says as their only source of knowledge.
If we do not overturn the myths they will just end up believing what the ads says.

I am personally open to new ideas if someone can show me the solid proof I am wrong.

 

This is a tough cause. Cause people rarely, if ever, pick designs based on performance gain. Rather, designs are picked based on form and aesthetics.

People have given debates such a narrow role. Rarely are debates one on one. More often than not, other people are listening. Sometimes, a whole audience is listening. You limit yourself and waste your time if you focus on the loyalists. It's those who are loyal to neither side. Those are the people you try to win over. The ones who haven't made up their minds.

 

Try it yourself over a long period (I use both system's and have preferences in either). Anyway I have worked in the field primarily for 7 years in Networking (Windows). I am very interested in these technologies yet I use mac as my primary platform. Does it mean it's better? Yes for me. For you?? Don't know or care cause at the end of the day I've used both systems in depth and have uses for both and can differentiate the two without referring to ads for added knowledge

 

The first time I tried a Mac I feel confined until I opened the terminal but then if I needed a terminal I would install Linux and save some money wouldn't I?

Computers are not all about software but hardware, after learning how despicable manufacturers do feature pricing, I became interested in hardware hacking and unlocking it was then I found that for hardware, Macs ain't worth the money.

 

certainly.

for the components, it is certainly not worth the money.

as a package, it may be, depending on the utility you get out of it as an individual.

 

There were a couple of people who said the unibody MBPs were not rugged compared to the earlier MBPs. Have the newer MBPs been fixed ?

 

Where is this coming from? You are basically saying all Mac users are dumb when it comes to computers and I feel insulted.

I for one, have a PC desktop that I built myself and tweak it as a hobby.

for the record, I don't prefer Mac or Windows, I just find that I have different uses for each system and each system handles those uses well.

Why is it that because I have a Mac, I am being called stupid...

 

Still doesn't change the fact that Dell XT2 != MBP because of costs and a different market. I'm aware of the thread at hand, but at least make reasonable comparisons. I have never stated that Macs have superior build quality, only the notion that they are built well and their costs come from their construction.

We already agreed that thin laptops cost more. How does what a person need/want change these costs? It doesn't. I only mentioned MBP's costs because a previous poster complained that it was overpriced.

 

On a pie chart, the part illustrating users that *need* or *want* a terminal would be a teeny tiny sliver. You, personally, as someone who knows Linux, and someone who probably has spent a lot of time at a shell prompt.. *you* have to have the power of a command line. You can't understand not having one. A GUI is restrictive and limiting.

To the 99% of other Mac users out there, the soccer moms, graphic artists, musicians, web developers, and me.. We will go from day 1, fresh out of the box Mac, to selling it on Craigslist years later, and we will never use the command prompt. Ever. We will do everything we ever wanted to do on our Macs, completely oblivious to any kind of prompt.

To many people, and especially to potential Mac buyers, computers are consumer electronics devices, no more worthy of hacking and unlocking than would be a toaster or microwave oven or LCD television. Plug it in, turn it on, complete task.

 

That's exactly the issue! Most purists have the idea that consumer products (e.g., computers, cars, etc) need to be catered specifically to them... It's just the business. You cant make something to satisfy 3% of your demographic while ignoring the rest.

 

macs are built as solid as always...their aluminum cases etc are very well crafted.

 

Still wouldn't crash my macbook with the ground though, it wouldn't crack per se, but it would definately crush in some areas... like a car would xD