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    Running Windows on a Mac: Boot Camp, Parallels Desktop & VMware Fusion

    Discussion in 'Apple and Mac OS X' started by Sam, Jul 24, 2007.

  1. kkhauw

    kkhauw Notebook Enthusiast

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    Hi all,

    Many thanks for all the info here. I am a newbie in this Mac/Boot Camp thingy. I have never used Mac before and because of the current ability of Intel-based Mac machines to run both Mac and Windows, I am really tempted to give Mac OS a go and planning to get myself a MacBook Pro.

    However, I have got something unsure here:-

    1. I would like to have the ability of Windows running both natively (i.e. using Boot Camp) and virtually (i.e. using Parallels/VMware Fusion) with my Mac. My question is, let say if I install Windows first using Boot Camp, then later when I install Parallels/VMware Fusion software in the Mac OS, do I need to re-install Windows AGAIN? Can Parallels/VMware Fusion recognise my previously Boot-Camp-installed Windows?

    2. For both Boot Camp and Parallels/VMware Fusion, under Windows environment, do I need to install all hardwares' drivers manually (e.g. graphics cards, sound cards and etc.)? Or all drivers will be detected automatically?

    I'm sorry if I asked something that has been answered else where in this forum, but I just need a quick answers from you guys. Any input would be very much appreciated, many thanks! :eek:
     
  2. Sam

    Sam Notebook Virtuoso

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    1) Boot Camp will automatically partition your hard drive so that one part of the hard drive is used for Windows, the other for Mac OS X. Parallels and VMware Fusion can use this partition to boot into Windows (it can also use a "virtual partition", so yes, you can use Paralllels and VMware using the same install of Windows as Boot Camp.

    2) I'm not too sure what you mean by "detected automatically". But anyways, when you download Boot Camp they prompt you to enter a CD/DVD for burning drivers. All the drivers necessary to run Windows on the Mac are on there.
     
  3. SoundsGood

    SoundsGood Notebook Virtuoso

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    Doesn't Sam do a great job of answering questions around here? Seriously.

    I was about to be a Mac user (but changed my mind at the last second), and this guy was a better resource than having my own Apple genius. ;)

    Kudos to Sam!
     
  4. kkhauw

    kkhauw Notebook Enthusiast

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    Thanks Sam!! :)

    By the way, say if I'm using Boot Camp and load the machine under Windows environment, can I access data/files stored in the Mac partition, and vise versa? For example, I mean do I need to have TWO copies of my MP3/data files in both partitions so that I can listen/use them both in Mac and windows? :confused:

    Cheers!
     
  5. Sam

    Sam Notebook Virtuoso

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    Thanks SoundsGood :). Its really nice of you for the compliments! Sorry to hear it didn't work out for you, but maybe you'll be back in October for Leopard or for future Mac updates!

    To kkhauw, I can't guarantee it, but I think you can access files from the Windows partition but cannot edit/modify them because they are formatted in NTFS. Can't guarantee it, once again. Maybe taelrak can help us on this question.
     
  6. taz98spin

    taz98spin Newbie

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    This is a great thread Sam! :)

    I'm new to the Mac too and have a question about Bootcamp.

    So if I'm in Windows and install a program,
    that program will save in the windows partition.

    Is that correct?
     
  7. Sam

    Sam Notebook Virtuoso

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    Yeaps, that is correct, taz98spin :)!
     
  8. taz98spin

    taz98spin Newbie

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    Rep points for the great info! :)
     
  9. jmFightSpam

    jmFightSpam Notebook Consultant

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    Hi Sam,

    As of right now, which one would *you* use (or are *you* currently using), Parallels 3.0 or VMWare Fusion? I ask you personally because your rep here is very high. Sorry if you answered this somewhere else.

    I already bought Parallels 3.0, but have heard horror stories about features not working and lack of good customer support. I haven't used it yet.

    If you say VMWare Fusion, I won't mind plunking down the money for it.

    Thanks.
     
  10. Sam

    Sam Notebook Virtuoso

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    Wow, that's quite a compliment, thanks :)!

    I actually don't use either, nor do I use Boot Camp. I don't run Windows on my MacBook. Surprise, surprise :p.

    After looking through Parallels and VMware Fusion, I personally feel VMware Fusion is the better way to go, although Parallels isn't far behind at all.

    Right now the biggest advantage that VMware Fusion has over Parallels is the ability to manage multi-cores. So you can assign one core to Fusion, another core to OS X, for example.

    But to even things out, Parallels has better graphics support than Fusion (although I don't recommend gaming in virtualization; game in Boot Camp). And before, Fusion had an advantage because it had Expose support in Unity, which Parallels did not. Parallels just announced a new public beta free to current Parallels users that will have this feature, so it is no longer exclusive to Fusion.

    But one more thing: if you plan to run 64-bit Windows, only VMware Fusion has support for that. Parallels currently doesn't support 64-bit.

    So all in all, I think its fine to stick with Parallels unless you're getting a full refund for it. If you are getting a full refund I recommend VMware Fusion.
     
  11. Redline

    Redline Notebook Prophet NBR Reviewer

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    Yep, Sam is correct. In Windows, you cannot access the mac partition, but in Mac, the Windows partition shows up as an "untitled" hard drive (just under the Macintosh HD on the desktop) and you can access the files, but not actually modify them.

    I don't think that it is because of the NTFS file system though...I think its because of the permissions required for Windows (like my docs, etc) but I could be wrong about that (I experienced essentially the same thing when I had XP and Vista RC1 dual-booting on my laptop, both on NTFS file systems, which is why I doubt that OSX would be any different).

    Again, Sam is correct, and I will just elaborate a bit ;) In the first step after running the Boot Camp Assistant, you are prompted to burn a "Mac Windows Drivers Disc", essentially, a CD with all of the drivers you need for the Mac to run Windows properly. After you install and start windows for the first time, you just insert the CD that you burned, and follow instructions from there. :)

    This question wasn't addressed to me, but I will answer it anyways, since it never hurts to get more than one opinion ;)

    I picked Boot Camp for two simple reasons: 1. Its FREE! (even when the release version comes out, it will be cheaper than the other two). 2. It runs Windows natively! This was quite important as well, since Windows came on primarily for gaming, and I didn't wish to rob the rest of the performance of the X1600 by running games in virtualization. But then I end up using Windows only now, probably since it takes too much effort to reboot and go back into OS X (and I have no real obligation to using OSX, I personally find it pretty similar to XP), so if you do want to use OSX a lot, Boot Camp really isn't for you. If you are not a gamer (or bought a MacBook - probably the same statement) get VMWare; if you need to use a lot of graphics intensive stuff, go native (Boot Camp).
     
  12. taelrak

    taelrak Lost

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    Actually, it shows up as whatever you named your C volume in Windows. (i.e. I named mine "Windows HD", and it shows up in Finder as "Windows HD"). If you edited it via NTFS-3g, it would show up as whatever you named the volume when you mounted it with ntfs-3g as a network drive.

    You can modify NTFS files from OSX via MacFuse and NTFS-3g (basically what Parallels Explorer uses).

    You can see, read and write to HFS+ drives from Windows via MacDrive.

    You don't need to have duplicate data files. There are several ways of doing this:

    1. If you primarily use OSX, but for some reason want to have your data files on your Windows partition, you can access them via MacFuse and NTFS-3G mentioned above. This option is free.

    2. The reversal of #1. Your data files would be on your Mac partition, and if you're in Windows and need to access them, you can do this via MacDrive. MacDrive costs $50.

    3. If you don't need more than 32GB in your Boot Camp partition, you can create it using FAT32 instead of NTFS. OSX will be able to write to it just fine.

    4. You can create a 3rd partition using FAT32 for all your shared data. Both OSes will be able to access this. This step is a bit more complicated than it looks however, since there's the matter of actually figuring out how and where you want to create that partition (Boot Camp only does 1; I'm not sure if it would recognize a Windows partition that has been partitioned within Windows or not).

    5. You could have an Expresscard SSD. There are ones out with 32+GB. These are FAT32, and both OSes would see it. Since it remains flush inside your expresscard slot, this is essentially a permanent 32GB FAT32 drive in your laptop. It could double as a ReadyBoost card for Vista if you use that (you'd have to make sure you don't overwrite the readyboost cache completely in OSX though, since it doesn't see that part at all). Expresscard SSDs are very expensive however.

    6. Instead of an Expresscard that you carry inside your laptop at all times, you could have an external drive, with at least one partition formated for FAT32. Same principle as #5, just not as convenient. External HDDs can be expensive.

    7. Parallels. This allows you to access Windows from OSX at any time, and of course you can access the files this way. Most notably, Parallels Explorer is actually just an interface for MacFuse and NTFS-3g, so even you could even access NTFS stuff without going through the virtualization window. Cost: $80.

    8. VMWare Fusion. Like Parallels, you can access Windows anywhere within Fusion's virtualization window. Fusion also lets you create "shared folders" that both OSes can access. Current cost: $60 (with $20 rebate).

    For me personally:
    I investigated these options before I bought my MBP. Bought my MBP, and realized that there was absolutely no reason I'd ever need to share my data across drives; OSX took care of all my needs.

    That said, I installed MacFuse and NTFS-3g (it's free after all), just in case. For example, when I dl something to use for the Windows side while I"m in OSX, I can just copy it right over without any problems.

    Finally, with the announcement that Office 2008 will be delayed, I needed to install Office 2007 on Windows. I invested in VMWare Fusion when it was still $40 to bridge that gap.
     
  13. Sam

    Sam Notebook Virtuoso

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    Thanks for elaborating on the posts, Vivek and taelrak. The other posters and I appreciate it :).
     
  14. Redline

    Redline Notebook Prophet NBR Reviewer

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    Can you change the size of the Boot Camp partitions after the OS' are installed? I partitioned it so that there is 60GB for the Windows side, and the remainder of the disk for Mac (it comes out to like 80GB or something) but I was thinking of increasing the Windows one, since I rarely boot into OSX.
     
  15. Geek94

    Geek94 Notebook Consultant

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    I think you can resize it using something like partition magic. Not 100% sure.
     
  16. tymonc

    tymonc Notebook Consultant

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    I've only read through a few of the pages in this thread, but will parallels run all windows games (ie. the graphicly intense ones) on a mac just as good on a pc? that is assuming the GPU on your mac is powerful enough?
     
  17. Sam

    Sam Notebook Virtuoso

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    No it won't, unfortunately. The main reason behind the huge load of resources that would be necessary for that. Parallels itself consumes a lot of RAM, and to game in Parallels would take lots of resources.

    If you plan to game on the Mac I recommend you use Boot Camp to do so. Its a free download and Parallels (and VMware Fusion) can use the same partition you created in Boot Camp.
     
  18. tymonc

    tymonc Notebook Consultant

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    Alright, thanks for setting me straight on that. :)
     
  19. Sam

    Sam Notebook Virtuoso

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    Sticky Update: August 10th, 2007

    So recently Boot Camp 1.4 was released, and the sticky's been updated with that. As well, VMware Fusion no longer has a pre-order deal (as it is released now) and I have taken "price" out of possible factors in deciding between Parallels and VMware Fusion, as both are now selling for $79 US.

    And links have been updated to reflect Boot Camp 1.4, and more Things to Note have been added.
     
  20. taelrak

    taelrak Lost

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    I think Fusion is still offering a $20 rebate though.
     
  21. Sam

    Sam Notebook Virtuoso

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    Hmm...yes it is. It says Limited Time offer...and doesn't say when its supposed to end. And its limited to USA only, how discriminatory towards the rest of the world :p.
     
  22. Thomas

    Thomas McLovin

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    You know your stuff dude. :) nice
     
  23. Sam

    Sam Notebook Virtuoso

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    Woot, my 2000th post! :) Ignore my celebration. ;)
     
  24. dbam987

    dbam987 wicked-poster

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    Congrats! Party time. :D
     
  25. Sam

    Sam Notebook Virtuoso

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    Thanks dbam :p. Who brought the chips? :D

    Its been quite a last 1000 posts for me. Most of those 1000 posts since I reached 1000 were here in the Apple forum. Now I've posted in some way on almost every thread here :eek: since I became really active here.
     
  26. stealthsniper96

    stealthsniper96 What Was I Thinkin'?

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    hey guys i havent been following this thread so if this has been asked already just tell me what page. but how hard/easy is it to run linux instead of windows thru bootcamp?
     
  27. Sam

    Sam Notebook Virtuoso

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  28. the_second

    the_second Newbie

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    I don't know whether this stays on point with the thread but I have a question about running Vista through bootcamp. More specifically, the 64 bit home premium or business. Would there be any issues with the 64 bit version or should I just stick to the 32 bit?
     
  29. Sam

    Sam Notebook Virtuoso

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    See if this link helps: http://forum.notebookreview.com/showthread.php?t=149395

    :)
     
  30. stealthsniper96

    stealthsniper96 What Was I Thinkin'?

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  31. Sam

    Sam Notebook Virtuoso

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    No problem, stealthsniper. Happy to help out :).
     
  32. Sam

    Sam Notebook Virtuoso

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    Sticky Update: August 18th 2007

    I just found some charts on CNET comparing VMware Fusion and Parallels Desktop's performance, and Fusion totally won. I included the results in a new section of the sticky.
     
  33. Durious

    Durious Notebook Evangelist

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    Fantastic comparison... Wow it not only did better but it literally blew it out of the water.. :) Great update Sam
     
  34. Sam

    Sam Notebook Virtuoso

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    Yeah, it was quite a surprise. I'm a leaner to VMware Fusion myself (although I don't have either Fusion or Parallels, or Boot Camp for that matter), but I never expected such an improvement in Fusion over Parallels.
     
  35. fastball25

    fastball25 Notebook Enthusiast

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    Let's say I have Windows XP pro set up virtually using VMware Fusion. I will create the XP virtual hard drive and format it to NTFS. I also have an external hard drive (from OWC) formatted in HFS+. Will I need MacDrive in this case for Windows to be able to read the external hard drive or will Fusion allow windows to read data on that drive?

    Also, does it matter if I buy an OEM version of XP versus retail? I was looking on ebay because that appears to be the cheapest spot for buying Windows XP pro.
     
  36. dbam987

    dbam987 wicked-poster

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    Fusion does allow you to copy and paste files to/from the virtual Windows machine on Mac OSX. It is actually very fast at copying files from an HFS+ drive to an NTFS drive. I copied my MP3 collection (about 3 GB's worth) from the Windows XP boot camp partition to Mac OSX quickly using Fusion (I can't remember how long it really took, but it was negligible).

    Someone on another thread mentioned that MacDrive costs a bit. See if Fusion suits your purposes first before buying additional stuff.
     
  37. dbam987

    dbam987 wicked-poster

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    OEM copies of Windows XP work fine with Boot Camp and with Fusion as well. Just make sure the disc you are buying has Service Pack 2 already in it.
     
  38. fastball25

    fastball25 Notebook Enthusiast

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    Thanks dbam! I don't think I'll be using bootcamp since I'm only interested in using windows while in Mac OS X (have no need for direct boot). I just wanted to make sure that if I load Windows XP through fusion, that it will be able to read files on my HFS+ drive. Thanks for anwering this.
     
  39. taelrak

    taelrak Lost

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    Has anyone tried installing video drivers for their boot camp/fusion partition via Fusion? I'm lazy enough (and Vista's startup is just insanely long...who wants to wait a whole minute just to boot up!?) that I'd prefer just doing it via Fusion while I'm in OSX than deal with the whole reboot thing while upgrading the drivers, but I'm wondering if there would be any problems updating the drivers via a virtual image.
     
  40. dbam987

    dbam987 wicked-poster

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    It would be safer to just boot straight into Vista from Boot Camp, as I think the drivers do some initial testing on the actual hardware to make final adjustments to the driver's configuration. If you did this in Fusion, the driver installation might fail saying that it could not find compatible hardware.

    Its just a guess though...
     
  41. taelrak

    taelrak Lost

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    Yea, I was afraid of that. I've been doing all my updates via Vista, but it's just annoying how slow the startup sequence is. Nearly a full minute..ugh..

    Thanks :)
     
  42. dbam987

    dbam987 wicked-poster

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    Vista does require a bit of time to boot up, but... have you considered just putting your computer to sleep instead of turning it off completely? There has been some discussion on this and many people get results saying that the battery doesn't drain much at all if left in sleep for a day. That will save you some boot time.
     
  43. taelrak

    taelrak Lost

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    Well, I'm always in OSX, and bootup only takes like 15-20 seconds or so there, and sleeping in OSX won't help me boot into Vista faster then.

    The main reason I hate installing Vista drivers is because I have to boot out of OSX, wait a full minute to get into Vista, uninstall the old drivers (I tend to do this instead of upgrading via the disk method), reboot, install the new, reboot. By the end of this process, I no longer am in the mood to do what I was logging into Vista to do in the first place :p

    Ah well.
     
  44. Xander

    Xander Paranoid Android

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    Sam, that's still only a rumor, right? Maybe you could edit that statement so that it says something like, " MacScoop reported on January 20, 2007 that Tiger users who do not want to upgrade to Leopard can pay $29 US for the final version of Boot Camp as well, though Apple has not released any official information on this matter to the public."

    Also, it seems that all the links throughout your Sticky are included at the end under External Links, except for the Boot Camp Beta: Requirements, Installation, and Frequently Asked Questions. The link is above in the Sticky, just not at the bottom.

    Just trying to help out a bit, I know editing is a *****. Those two things just caught my eye, Peace :).
     
  45. Sam

    Sam Notebook Virtuoso

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    Thanks for the tips, eternal, the sticky's been edited to "According to several reports, although not confirmed by Apple, Tiger users ...." and I've added the FAQ onto the External Links.

    I appreciate and welcome people suggesting edits or additions!
     
  46. Sam

    Sam Notebook Virtuoso

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    My 2500th post! Quarter into 10'000 :D.
     
  47. dbam987

    dbam987 wicked-poster

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    Awesome... took you about a year to get that, so 3 more years to achieve that goal.

    Congrats!
     
  48. Sam

    Sam Notebook Virtuoso

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    Sticky Update

    I've added an answer to the popular question, "Is right click supported in Boot Camp?"

    If you would like to add, correct, edit or suggest any part of the Windows on a Mac guide, feel free to post your suggestion here or PM me.
     
  49. neptunefix

    neptunefix Notebook Enthusiast

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    According to the chart, it takes longer to load photoshop in BootCamp, than with Mac OSX? What does that mean? Does this mean a machine running Bootcamp is slower at running Windows XP than the same machine running XP natively?
     
  50. Sam

    Sam Notebook Virtuoso

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    Technically, yes, right now according to the chart running Windows on the Mac is slower than running OS X on the Mac. Drivers can improve later on though, and remember Boot Camp is still a Beta.

    Although I want to stress; Boot Camp was not meant to drive Mac hardware sales up; for users to run Windows on a Mac full time. Apple released Boot Camp so those that want to switch to OS X but cannot fully drop Windows yet can finally get a Mac.

    Boot Camp was not meant to run Windows 100% perfect. It works fine mostly, but its main purpose is not to drive up hardware sales, but to finally let those that want to switch to OS X, but also let them use Windows for work or Windows-only applications.
     
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