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    *Shock* Psystar loses to Apple

    Discussion in 'Apple and Mac OS X' started by Seshan, Nov 15, 2009.

  1. Seshan

    Seshan Rawrrr!

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    http://www.engadget.com/2009/11/14/apple-wins-copyright-infringement-case-against-psystar-in-califo/

    Well, there you have it.
     
  2. Peon

    Peon Notebook Virtuoso

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    I assume Psystar's going to appeal, just cuz everyone does it even if they know they're gonna lose?
     
  3. masterchef341

    masterchef341 The guy from The Notebook

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    And so, all those who bickered about Apple's EULA being invalid because of the language used (Apple labelled, Apple branded) fell silent, and the world was at rest, because the issue at hand was much deeper than the silly notion that their eula language was not clear enough - and somehow that invalidates their eula AND allows anyone to do whatever they want with someone else's work.

    Gasp.

    Nevertheless, I think Psystar still might have a chance at making their case with snow leopard, or in appeal over this verdict... or at least they WOULD have had a chance if they hadn't been lying about shipping their machines with legit copies of the operating system.
     
  4. yuio

    yuio NBR Assistive Tec. Tec.

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    I was hoping someone would beat apple... oh well as you say I'm 'shocked'.
     
  5. Luke1708

    Luke1708 Notebook Virtuoso NBR Reviewer

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    apple ftw...apple created os x and needs to keep the copyrights.
     
  6. Mandrake

    Mandrake Notebook Nobel Laureate NBR Reviewer

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    Obviously the competition would mean lower prices. Apple ftw but the future consumers are the losers.
     
  7. MrX8503

    MrX8503 Notebook Evangelist

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    Well, Microsoft created Windows, but you can put that on any machine. Apple created OSX, but you can only install it on Apple products.
     
  8. weinter

    weinter /dev/null

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    Ironic if you considered the fact you legally bought both OS not lease OS X.
    Anyway Psystar failed and deserve if because they were in the wrong themselves.
    Pointing out other's misdeed will fail if you did worse stuff.
     
  9. Luke1708

    Luke1708 Notebook Virtuoso NBR Reviewer

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    apple designs os x to work with specific hardware only. the more hardware supported means more unstable os. os x will never be able to compete with windows simply because windows is aimed towards the mass market where as os x is geared towards a niche market.

    windows runs on many machines because it has the device drivers whereas os x does not have all the drivers. if you have a geforce 8400m gs, os x will refuse to install simply because no driver has been written for this gpu. apple relies on simplicity and i doubt findind and installing the required driver revolves around simplicity. If you want to buy an apple, buy it, else don't bother getting one.
     
  10. HLdan

    HLdan Notebook Virtuoso

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    Why would you hope something like that? :rolleyes: It just really pains me sometimes, 10 or so years ago Apple was about to fold and Microsoft would've owned the world. Apple managed to make an incredible comeback and bring us a fantastic alternative to MS's crap and made multimedia actually fun without an Xbox involved, and now that Apple has gotten big people like you want to take them back down. Geez. :rolleyes:
     
  11. Convoluted

    Convoluted Notebook Evangelist

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    I'm siding with Apple on this one. You buy the Mac experience, not just the OS, the frame of the computer is just as important (to me at least). Why put a Ferrari engine in a Geo? - no offense to Geo owners
     
  12. Seshan

    Seshan Rawrrr!

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    Apple makes OS X to sell their hardware. Apple is a hardware company.
     
  13. Vexatia

    Vexatia Notebook Enthusiast

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    Just so we're all clear, if MS prohibits all of us from running the next version of Windows on a Mac, I assume that all of the Apple advocates in this thread will defend MS's right to do so with equal verve...
     
  14. Seshan

    Seshan Rawrrr!

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    But they won't, because then they would lose money.
     
  15. MrX8503

    MrX8503 Notebook Evangelist

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    No,

    I think it just means that Apple is also a hardware company. Of course an open OS would mean that it would be more unstable, but I'm pretty sure Apple's closed system is to sell their OS and Hardware together as a package.
     
  16. Vexatia

    Vexatia Notebook Enthusiast

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    Maybe...in the short term, I'd agree that MS would probably lose money. In the long term, however, MS could force consumers to avoid purchasing Macs, depriving OS X of its only platform, which would, over the long term, only strengthen MS's hold on the OS market.
     
  17. Seshan

    Seshan Rawrrr!

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    Another reason why they wont.
     
  18. Vogelbung

    Vogelbung I R Judgemental

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    It's true for the most part and at the lower to middle end I'd agree with you, but for some it's not actually a matter of economy. It's a matter of the Apple hardware being inadequate for the level of Windows computing they're used to - not necessarily in terms of an all-out industrial sense, but in terms of build quality, support , etc where uninformed consumers - Apple's 'experience' base - don't, or aren't equipped to, look.

    My dream is for hackintosh to be running on hardware comparable in scope to the Pro but better - such as the Dell Precision T7500 or the HP Z800, so that a native Apple experience is delivered with the stability and support of the Dell/HP. Another dream is to be able to have hackintosh in a VM so that I can use Windows-based laptops better than the Macbooks to run OS X when required - since only Windows has all the applications which really matters, and these days it's a better OS for people who actually want to get things done (and aren't devoid of common sense) than OS X.

    I have these things to a degree right now - I have hackintosh running on workstations and I have hackintosh running in a VM on a notebook - but OS X is just not stable or usable enough in a commercial sense in these environments to be fully viable. In that way, having a company like Psystar out in the open was good in that it perhaps did speed up hackintosh development in some ways. And it doesn't mean I'll stop trying entirely but it has been fairly disillusioning for me, in that the last ~3% of the viability I need probably will never come.
     
  19. yuio

    yuio NBR Assistive Tec. Tec.

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    I don't mean destroy apple, but It would be nice to have a apple alternative. Macs are expensive and if apple was forced to license OS X it would bring much needed competion to the computer market.
     
  20. KimoT

    KimoT Are we not men?

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    If you want more competition in the computer market, than Apple isn't the company you need to focus on.
     
  21. weinter

    weinter /dev/null

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    LOL!!!
    How much will they lose?
    Come on Microsoft profits through their partners in buying bulk OEM Licensing!?!?
    How much money can they earn from that 5% of people using Macs? Moreover not many would use or pay for it legally or buy a new Windows retail license?
    Most reuses their old Windows License for their Macs.

    IF it was profitable Microsoft would have bothered to provide proper Driver Support.
    They didn't do this in the EULA is because there is no need for them and to prevent public outcry.
    The argument is why can't Apple be like that.
    Why can't they not provide driver support and remove the specific clause.
     
  22. HLdan

    HLdan Notebook Virtuoso

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    Apple is the alternative to Microsoft. Why would want an alternative to the alternative? Microsoft's Windows system has 90% market share, that's the company we need more alternatives to, not Apple. Apple has 10% U.S. and under 10% worldwide, they are still the underdog. People are looking for alternatives to Windows, not Apple.
     
  23. dkwhite

    dkwhite Notebook Deity

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    Shyeah, and quite frankly Microsoft doesn't care. They are NOT a hardware company. The more people who buy windows, the better, as far as they are concerned. Now if they started making their own PC's, it might be a different story. I really don't mind honestly.
     
  24. Peon

    Peon Notebook Virtuoso

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    Except they do care - if they didn't, they wouldn't have attacked Macs in their ads earlier this year.

    Though ironically, Mac users probably pay way more on average for a copy of Windows since most PC users get Windows at the super low large OEM price.
     
  25. Seshan

    Seshan Rawrrr!

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    Some people manage to drag Windows arguments into a thread with a topic that has nothing to do with Window. Please stop talking about Windows.
     
  26. yuio

    yuio NBR Assistive Tec. Tec.

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    it's alternative fo the 20% to 30% of the market than can afford to buy them... lets say I want OS X... well odds are I can't afford it. but If I assembled a new desktop for like 300$ and spend 100$ and buy OS X, it would be nice to be able to install it. therefore I'd have a 400$ mac that's as fast as a 1200$ mac.

    your right I'm looking for an alternative to windows, but right now that's apple. perhaps Ubuntu, but mainly apple. ChromeOS is likely a year way...
     
  27. Mandrake

    Mandrake Notebook Nobel Laureate NBR Reviewer

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    That's the same business practice that landed them with only a 10% market share and now it's going to happen with the iphone with Android taking over. They didn't learn from their own history.
     
  28. Brain191

    Brain191 Notebook Consultant

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    It seems to me that there are two fronts here... the OS side and the hardware side. Apple is competeing against Windows and it is also competeing against Dell / HP / and every other compter maker. Yes, I think it would be amazing if OS X could be offered on a Dell or bought off the shelf and installed but what would that do to Apple's compeditivness in the computer market?

    The question is, which market are people going to Apple for? Is it OS X or is it the build quality / style / feature of their Laptops & Desktops?
     
  29. masterchef341

    masterchef341 The guy from The Notebook

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    there is a spectrum of people.

    some just want the hardware

    some just want the OS

    some want both
     
  30. Mandrake

    Mandrake Notebook Nobel Laureate NBR Reviewer

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    More options means more systems will end up in people's home. That means more people learn them, more people support them so on and so forth. Limiting the amount of sales channels will limit sales.
     
  31. doh123

    doh123 Without ME its just AWESO

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    you don't legally buy any OS... you never have... you buy a license for an OS... no the OS itself, but the right to use their OS. Apple owns OSX (most of it) and MS owns Windows (most of it), they do not sell it to anyone, they sell licenses for others to use it.... so not sure what you mean with "bought" and "lease"
     
  32. newfiejudd

    newfiejudd Notebook Deity

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    Well if Apple did allow OS x to run non Apple Hardware, just think about how much money they would lose from overpriced hardware they sell. I doubt the increase in Software sales would out do the income for hardware.

    So they need to control both Hardware and Software. That is their business model and it has worked for years.
     
  33. electrosoft

    electrosoft Perpetualist Matrixist

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    In the end, I look at it that OSX is Apple's product to do with as they see fit. If you don't want to adhere to their EULA or purchase their hardware, then you look elsewhere. There are numerous choices and Apple's market share is incredibly small overall compared to Microsoft.

    I find it hilarious that some try to tell others how they should sell and offer THEIR product. The market, as a whole, tends to dictate how companies fair. Apple is doing well enough with their select market. If for some reason the Apple faithful suddenly stop purchasing Apple hardware/software, Apple will respond accordingly, but I don't see that happening anytime soon.

    I do wish Apple had better pricing, but I respect their right to sell their wares as they want; I am also glad Psystar lost (and badly at that).
     
  34. weinter

    weinter /dev/null

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    Please read this and explain to me...or that the laws in Apple world is somehow different?
     
  35. dkwhite

    dkwhite Notebook Deity

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    Yes, and that is wrong on so many levels. Under current laws we don't really buy any software or media anymore, we're really just leasing it. Private purchasers should be allowed to do what they want with what they buy, including ripping and keeping multiple copies on different storage mediums, altering code for personal use. etc. The only time I see it as wrong is in the case of Psystar, Altering code and using it for commercial purposes.

    Does it stop me? no, because it's a stupid nonsensical law. I treat it pretty much the same way people did back when Prohibition was in effect. hehe. The latest is being able to purchase HD movies off Xbox live. the problem? when the hard drive goes, so does your purchase. So it's not really buying, it's just an extended lease because you are not allowed to back it up or even play it on another device.
     
  36. dkwhite

    dkwhite Notebook Deity

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    They only care in so far as every apple owner that runs windows is just proof that Windows is needed even by apple users. IF they really cared that apple users use windows, they'd prevent them from doing it the same way apple does. via the EULA. Fact of the matter is, Microsoft see's it as a win every time a mac user installs windows on their system.

    And if Microsoft started preventing the use of windows on mac computers. Every apple user who needs windows would be in an uproar about it. Of course MICROSOFT would be taken to court and would lose. lol. Apple can get away with all of this BECAUSE their market share is small. if their market share were half what Microsoft's is, they'd lose too.
     
  37. dkwhite

    dkwhite Notebook Deity

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    Apple is happy with that market share. it allows them to get away with things they wouldn't be able to do otherwise. They make a very nice profit selling to people with $$, they are not interested in selling Mac's to people who can't afford their prices. They have always done business their way. It is not their goal to overtake Microsoft and the PC market. it is only their goal to BE the alternative to the big bad corporation. And it works for them.

    When a corporation gets too big, it becomes evil. Just look at Google. everyone used to love google, but now that google has continued to expand and become bigger and bigger, there is a growing segment of people who are changing their minds about Google. Google is now Evil, because they are on top. Apple doesn't want that.
     
  38. weinter

    weinter /dev/null

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    Nope Google was never evil.
    It says so here.
    If anyone says otherwise they must be the evil one instead... ;) :D :D
    It is just that when a Company is big it somehow draws attention from the dept of justice for some anti-evil tax.
    Apple is not big enough yet...
     
  39. Mandrake

    Mandrake Notebook Nobel Laureate NBR Reviewer

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    All the Apple marketing campaigns would contradict that thinking.
     
  40. weinter

    weinter /dev/null

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    Would you care to elaborate because I think he was quite right.
    If Apple wanted a big pie of the market, it would have products catered for the budget segment.
    The marketing campaigns are just a way to tell the world they actually existed and is somehow superior to Windows because they don't get viruses, BSOD etc...
     
  41. doh123

    doh123 Without ME its just AWESO

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    looks pretty straightforward... nothing confusing there. Tthey don't bypass laws regarding sells, and that a EULA comes with the license and software copy... you must agree to the EULA to use your purchased license.

    how is it wrong? It is much more like a lease than a sale... but its not a lease. I don't get why people think they should dictate how someone else uses or sales or leases or gives away their creation. If you want to be able to do things beyond reasonable, which is what you are wanting, you should stick with GPL and LGPL software.
     
  42. weinter

    weinter /dev/null

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    Tell me which is more important, the first sale doctrine (that existed long before Apple was founded) or the EULA which contradicts the first sale doctrine?
    It is a sale if it is a lease money have to be paid monthly like a subscription...
    Can I make and sell a toilet roll and specifically say you have to agree not to flush it down the toilet after using it?
     
  43. Jervis961

    Jervis961 Hall monitor

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    Not all leases have monthly payments. Even cars can be leased with one lump payment, its just most people don't like to lay out all the cash in advance. DirecTV no longer allows customers to own receivers. You pay a lease fee up front for the receiver and have to return it if you stop buying the monthly programming.

    If I recall correctly the EULA only comes into play once the software is installed and the EULA agreed to. Otherwise the first sale doctrine in in effect.
     
  44. Mandrake

    Mandrake Notebook Nobel Laureate NBR Reviewer

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    <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/3F-ACkXn5tU&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/3F-ACkXn5tU&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width='560' height="340"></embed></object>

    Apple wants it all (cannot blame them). These companies don't get satisfied by their own "niche". They are in this make the PC completely obsolete. It always comes down to money, they are trying for as much market share as possible. They are not some small boutique brand. This is the company that created the Ipod and the Iphone. Do you think they want a small market share in those areas and be satisfied with it?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 6, 2015
  45. KimoT

    KimoT Are we not men?

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    Evidence points to the contrary. Apple wants the bulk of the premium PC market. They have abandoned the low-end and middle market to concentrate on the high-dollar units. And they are very profitable at it. Their share is now hovering about 7.5-8% of the overall US market by units shipped, but they have about 90% of the premium market by revenue. After a disastrous decade in the 90's, they have learned their niche and exploited it well. The ads? That's just pillow talk, baby. It says "We want to crush Windows," but there are no offerings for people looking to spend $500 on a notebook. BMW has great adds, too, but they aren't gunning for Ford.

    While there's a lot of second guessing about Apple's strategy, it works. The OS alone does not turn much profit, and expanding availability to stand-alone sales of the OS would increase costs as they have to increase support for different hardware combinations. That would put them in an even worse situation than they were in when they licensed the OS to Apple Clone makers and saw profits fall and complaints increase as low-priced clones ate away at their market, and the profit per unit plummeted.

    I don't see Apple licensing the OS or selling unrestricted copies for generic hardware. The return is too small, and keeping OS X on premium computers increases the perceived value of their software. They almost killed the goose that laid the golden egg once. Don't expect them to do it again.
     
  46. k9hydr4

    k9hydr4 Notebook Deity

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    Jobs has never been about sales. Neither is today's Apple. I think it has been pointed out time and again that Jobs runs Apple and he has specific visions of how computing or lifestyle appliance should be. Apple is his conduit. He makes enough money for the people with voting power within Apple that they tolerate his idiosyncrasies.

    Apple tried to do without Jobs, listened to what the masses (power computing anyone?) "wanted", failed miserably and almost faded into oblivion.

    The masses could not care less about Apple. Or Microsoft. Enthusiasts like you and me do because we like gadgets galore. But there simply are not enough of us to drive and sustain the change even if it does happen.

    Even if Apple IS interested in world dominance, it will do so at its pace.
     
  47. Mandrake

    Mandrake Notebook Nobel Laureate NBR Reviewer

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    Sorry but I lol'd at this statement. Please tell me your kidding. Looks like the kool-aide has been passed around here. I'm out. I won't bother you guys here anymore.
     
  48. k9hydr4

    k9hydr4 Notebook Deity

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    Don't mind me. I'm retarded. I just don't get these posts. It's a rehash of the same old thing.

    Yep, Apple is all about money. They just don't know how to get there. Why don't they simply surf NBR and give people what they want?

    Damn, why don't they simply let people install OS X any way they like it. It's so, anti-capitalist, and anti-profit! Won't they ever learn?!!!
     
  49. Jervis961

    Jervis961 Hall monitor

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    I won't pass judgement on your mental capacity but I will agree that this is a rehash. :D Maybe Apple sticks with the current plan because they are making money hand over fist already. You don't fix what isn't broken.
     
  50. k9hydr4

    k9hydr4 Notebook Deity

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    I'm retarded because posts like these are really nothing more than flame bait, yet time and again, get sucked in anyway-

    I don't know. The people who post here seem to be sensible, intelligent human beings in other forums. Bring Apple in and all of a sudden it's a fest for "Apple is evil, they want everything, but they are just too stupid to capitalize on a strategy that's guaranteed for world domination."

    It's tiring. But it IS my fault. No one asked for my opinion. Yet here I am.

    I guess I just wish that someday, people would simply post here for the sake of sincerely helping other people, instead of "well Apple should..."

    There are so many useful posts on other forums. Far out mods, taking basic notebooks and making modifications (cpu, GPU, fans, heatsink, motherboard swaps, etc.) that borders on transcendental experience.

    This forum is lacking in real technical content other than the stickies. I get it. You have a PC. You want to include a Mac. But you can't because [insert reason 10000x here]. How evil of Apple.

    But we already know what's going to happen. Someone is going to tell me to stop sniffing glue (or drink the koolaid), and we're back to back and forth speculations, wishful thinking, conspiracy theories, and by god, why is Apple so greedy? It goes on until the posts get out of hand and a Mod has to close the thread.
     
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