Switching Qs

Having never seriously considered Apple before, I'm thinking of buying a 17" MBP because Apple is the only manufacturer that is producing high-quality (in the sense of a proper WUXGA screen, thin chassis, aluminium casing, and general build quality/attention to detail) notebooks these days.

I don't really have the time/inclination to convert to OSX, so I'm planning to nuke OSX and install Windows 7 - to essentially treat it no differently to any other PC laptop: format, install Windows 7, and (presumably) use the normal ATI/HD audio/etc drivers for windows. Are there any subtleties / complications to running Windows on a MBP, or can I do just that?

The other things that I am concerned about are the touchpad and lack of a delete key. On the touchpad, is is it true that it can be set up so that the left side = left button; right side = right button, so no issues in terms of the dreaded 'single-button Apple'? On the delete key, I was planning to use a windows app to rebind that key that's in the position of the delete key to be a proper delete key in Windows. Has anyone had any luck doing this before?

Any help is much appreciated.

Cheers,
Mugen

 

If you're buying it for the hardware and not the OS, you're doing it for the wrong reason. Since you don't care about OS X and just the hardware, look into business class hardware from normal manufacturers. For instance, take a look at Dell's business class, it's what we've been using for years and we've had minimal hardware problems, and any that have happened are fixed in 24 hours because of Dell's business support.

 

You must use Apple's drivers in Windows. You'll take a hit on battery life, as well as experience several quirks which some people eventually find annoying enough to convert to OSX, or go back to a Windows laptop.

Long story short, you should buy a Mac because you want OSX. If you're primarily going to be running Windows, then you should buy a suitable Windows laptop.

 

Not worth it if you are going to be using Windows primarily because Apple's windows drivers suck. They work well enough to be able to be used for general stuff, but not well enough to be used for primary usage.

I like the suggestion above stating to look for business class hardware. I recommend that. Business laptops such as the Lenovo Thinkpad, HP ProBook or EliteBook, and the Dell Latitude lines are all pretty well made and their service is pretty much up their with Apple's.

 

You have to use Apple's drivers for literally everything. Most other drivers don't even recognize the components in the laptop.

As stated above, Apple's drivers are generally pretty bad and makes Windows annoying to use, which is a shame since they Apple could easily build the most user friendly PC out there if they wanted to.

 

Apple does make the most user friendly PC out there, it's a Mac running OS X. This is not a slam against Windows but honestly in terms of user friendliness, frankly Windows in any flavor is NOT which is why Apple's makes an alternative all in one closed system. Yes, you do have to use Apple drivers unless you want limited operations and in this case what point would it be for anyone to run Windows primarily on a Mac?

 

If you want a solid Windows machine, look into the HP 8740w.

 

Thanks for the advice, all.

I think that I explained this: I've not been able to find any other comparable hardware. All of the major manufacturers have focused on the cheap/netbook segment and don't make premium products - at any price - so there are no other laptops with the combination of WUXGA+, 17", high quality LCD / thin and light chassis / high build quality.

 

thin and light no, as most machines with a premium 17" LCD and high spec are not targeted as the consumers but at professionals that dont care about thin and light, or battery life for that matter but quality machine, spec and screen.

Like someone said the 8740w rocks with a 10bit IPS screen available that no laptop can touch as well as quality and a super high spec, but its by no means thin and light or battery friendly. ALL laptops have tradeoffs aesthetics, battery life, CPU/GPU specs, temperatures, durability or ports and extra features ... you have to find a balance for what you need.

 

I don't know why everybody feels the need to point out that it's a bad choice instead of simply answering the questions mugen asked?

I like the MBP 17" best from all the high end 17" laptops up there as well, the only difference is that I like OSX so I would use OSX.

 

You're way too focused on the Apple hardware. You won't get the "Mac" experience if you're not running Mac OS. Running Windows requires Apple's drivers which as been said earlier and should only be used for occasional use and not full time. If you're going to (and you WILL) have poor battery life, poor trackpad performance and no option to switch graphics to help maximize battery life and you'll still have a keyboard that is tailored for the Mac OS, then why pay the premium for a poor experience?

Most people that buy a Mac, they are buying the experience and not the pretty hardware. The pretty hardware just comes in the package. Sony's Vaio line will come close to what you are looking for in the PC world.

 

The Dell Precision M6500?
But I warn you, prepare to shell out USD$2,500+, but on the plus side, reliability and computer resources = :happy:

The Toshiba X500 also is good, and from large scale studies, Toshiba's tend to fail less often than their Apple counterparts. But its heavy, even for a 18.4"

Alienware M17x. In the spirit of excess, this laptop can cost as much as a good bike, and is as loud as one too.

EDIT:
Shorten post for readability

 

We have answered the questions with relavant information regarding the Windows experience on a Mac.

 

But how awesome would it be if Apple made Windows 7 laptops... by porting over iLife, Time Machine, Photobooth, etc. to Windows and by making better drivers for it? It would easily be the most user friendly PC in the market.

(I know this will never happen, because it'll gimp Apple's marketing, but still...)

 

iLife possibly for gargage band ....

Time machine .. well there have been NAS backups similar for years but third party

photo booth ... yikes its built into logitech webcams and lots of free ones that the kids like better ..... ( personally I hate webcams ).

now on topic since the OP had SPECIFIED they were going to bomb OSX and not learn it, why are we turning this into another stupid rant?

 

I completely understand why you want to do it - there's simply no PC laptop with this kind of build quality on the hardware. I've owned many - Dell Latitudes and Precisions and XPS, HP Envy, none has this flawless (at least my MBP13 is) build quality.

I wouldn't do it, buying a MBP intending to run Windows on it primarily. The awesome touchpad in OSX becomes almost unusable in Windows. Battery life is cut by at least half. The keyboard becomes frustrating to use and the backlit doesn't work. If I had to run Windows on the Mac, I'd do it a VM.

 

Then you certainly won't have the time and inclination to deal with the difficulties and problems "converting" to the Mac hardware as a Windows-only device. it will be much more onerous.

I really think the conversion process of learning OS X, and making it productive will far outweigh the issues you will encounter with what you propose. In fact, you will probably regret the move and change your mind about the feeling you have with thinking that the Apple hardware is as superior as you have concluded.

The problem, if it can be described as such, is that Apple hardware is so married to the operating system that a large preponderance of its benefits can only be exploited by using it as originally intended. The Mac operates Windows only "fair", for all the reasons already spoken of in this thread. "Excellent" can only be realized when running its native OS.

 

Sure you can find similar programs already made on Windows, but you have to take the time to find, purchase, install them, and then adjust the settings so they don't clog up your computer. That's not exactly user friendly.

and I for one think that most Apple software is much better than their windows alternatives.

 

Thanks to TSE, detail and andye39s - that's what I wanted to know. I might have to go for a Vaio, though I hate 16:9 screens and the chassis quality isn't there compared to the MBPs or the W2P that it will be replacing.

Fishsticks - not terribly keen on moving into the 'brick' 17" form factor, which is why I had been considering MBPs.

 

This post is totally comical. Are you for real? Well, in other words, Apple might as well just give up on OS X and fully support Windows with the most prominent Mac OS apps right? We don't use that little tinker toy OS X anyway since it's worthless. Now that my facetiousness is done, I will tell you that nothing about your idea is "awesome".

 

Hey hey, be fair!
We ported over Microsoft Office for you, perhaps you can port over something for us. How about the iPhone SDK?

(Windows is not that bad )

 

Compared to the Latitudes, Elitebooks and Lenovos I've used, my dad's MBP has inferior build quality and IMO is more looks than substance.

 

My last Latitude was an E6400. The screen hinge became wobbly and squeaky after a few months. The whole thing generally just didn't feel all that solid especially the speakers grill area. My wife has a Lenovo T400 from work. I think it was nearly $2k at the time. The whole thing is plastic and the keyboard flex is not all that much better than your typical Asus or Acer.

This might seem stupid to some, but closing the screen on my MBP13 is just oh so satisfying with the solid muted thud sound. And that MagSafe plug is totally slick, although Apple probably got that idea from hot water dispenser and rice cooker from years ago.

 

I have been going through the same internal debate as mugen, though I am focused on the 15 inch. FWIW, people in the apple store deny the problems running windows on a MAC, but I assume the comments here are more objective. I have not found another computer of the same quality as a mac with comparable battery life (the Sony's someone recommended come in at around a paltry 3 hours, which means under 2 in real life). It sounds like it is going to come down to whether I want to master two OS's or not, as work of course uses PCs. Great thread.

 

Not sure which Sony you're referring to. I have a Z12 and I get ~5hrs doing light duty stuff (surfing). Build quality is very nice, although in a feather light 3lbs package, it's not as solid as a MBP - the very thin screen is very bendy. Some great engineering went into this Z, fitting all this stuff in a 3lbs chassis, runs cool on normal tasks, and still 5hrs on a 6 cell battery. Sony has a larger capacity. I image I can get 7-8hrs on that battery, but I'm not paying $250 for a battery!

I'm a bit perplexed with NBR's review of the Z. It said there's flex on the keyboard above the optical drive. As the review pointed out, the entire top half of the chassis is what gives it strength, somewhat similar to Apple's unibody in which the whole top is a single piece of aluminum. The keyboard is mounted directly on it. There is no flex on mine. Believe me, I have very tolerance with keyboard flex on any laptop costing more than $1k. On a $500 model I'll tolerate it given the price.

I'm not sure I'll ever reach the same comfort level or expertise on Mac OS as I am with Windows. If you don't care too much about under the hood stuff, you really don't need to. But of course it's not about that. It's the ego thing; it's about control

 

I don't recall the model other than it was a VAIO. It is for sale at Best Buy. 15" screen, runs around $800. I'll keep an eye out for the Z.

 

BTW, what programs are you planning to run on your future notebook?

 

As a follow-up question, when 'driver problems' are mentioned, does that mean 'problems' in the sense that Apple has not provided full drivers for all peripherals (i.e. loss of functionality with the touchpad, loss of the backlight for the keyboard, switching to integrated video does not work, and battery life decreases) or does it mean that the core drivers (video, chipset, wireless) are not stable or complete?

Having had a look at the latest F-series Vaio and its rubbish layout/keyboard/clunky case and size/16:9 screen, I think that I can deal with the former kind of problem ...

Another Q - is most of the hardware (e.g. audio/NIC/chipset) fundamentally standard PC hardware (i.e. generic Realtek HD audio/gigabit NIC and Intel chipset) so that I can edit INFs to force drivers other than Apple's to install? Understand that this will work with some of the hardware, like the GT330M ...

 

take a look at this?

ASUS B53F-A1B 15.6" Notebook. ASUS B53F-A1B

ASUS B53F-A1B Intel Core i5-520M (2.40GHz) Processor, 15.6" HD 16:9 (1366x768) LED (Matte) Display, 2GB DDR3 Memory, 320GB Hard Drive, DVD Super Multi Drive, Microsoft Windows 7 Professional 64 Bit + XP Pro downgrade, 3-Year Global Warranty, Smart Card Reader & Docking Port Included

3 - Standard 3 Year Global Warranty
0 - 30 days Zero Bright Dot Guaranty LCD replacement (ZBD)
2 - Free 2-way Overnight Shipping for warranty related services
24 - Technical Support: 24/7 (except holidays)
ASUS Notebook Hotline: +1-888-678-3688 (Toll-free)
One Year Accidental Damage Warranty (ADW):

 

That's a pretty poor laptop. A 15" laptop with a 1366x768 display and Intel integrated graphics isn't very desirable.

 

somehow I missed what you were asking the first time I read this...

the key called "Delete" on smaller Mac keyboards is not a Windows Delete button, and not in the position of a Windows delete button. It is a Backspace button, and in the normal backspace position, and works as a normal backspace in OSX and Windows. Full sized keyboards you have a "delete" button thats a normal Windows functioning one, and its in the normal Windows using keyboard location, so there is basically no difference. On smaller Mac keyboards you can hold down Fn and press Delete and it does a normal "delete" instead of a backspace. Nothing needs to be changed here.

The trackpad can have corners set up for right clicks... as well as just a two finger tap or click being a right click. Macs have had right click for many many years.