The new Leopord demo Vids. WOW!!!

Being I plan on getting a Mac soon. The new demo vids just sold me.

The Desktop's Eyecandy & "Stacks" feature is sweet, and is actually usefull. Unlike Vista's 3D Windows that I see no use for at all.

Time Machine is as simple as it should be.

Quicklook is nothing short of amazing.


What do you guys think?

 

I'm really happy. As someone who has been using Macs for a long time (as well as NextStep back in the day), I've certainly enjoyed OS X, but ever since it launched it's biggest weakness has probably been the unfinished "feel" of the Finder, and as it has progressed, it has gotten worse (with some UI elements using brushed metal, some using Aqua, some using the newer "flat" colors, etc.). Aside from that, it's been sort of limited in functionality.

The biggest thing I was glad to see was finally a new unified Finder. The icing on the cake for me was stuff like the smart searches, cover flow, quick look, etc. integrated into it. Looks really nice, and was pretty much exactly what I was hoping for.

I really love the new "Stacks" stuff too for the Dock.

Between the new OS X Finder and other functionality, on top of stuff like Time Machine (really glad to hear it can back up to a remote hard drive even wirelessly, since I wasn't sure if I'd be able to use it otherwise with my laptop) and Spaces, I can't wait for Leopard now. It's basically everything I was hoping to see.

 

I like the Coverflow on Finder, and that it's implemented like Itunes.

 

I hope it all works on my macbook

 

It should, the GMA950 in the MacBook does support Core Animation, so you should be fine.

 

^^^it will work work perfectly

I am pretty impressed, I love the little additions, great job Apple.

Hate to sound like such a fan, but they know what they are doing.

It is great to see them add things that look great, and are actually useful at the same time.

 

Wow leopard looks amazing. definitely going to upgrade as soon as it comes out. time machine and the new ichat look cool. Stacks also.

 

Vista Who?

 

Interesting unmentioned feature in Boot Camp:

http://www.apple.com/macosx/leopard/features/bootcamp.html

Very nice for people who will regularly switch back and forth.

 

yeah that was another big thing I thought was impressive. will be interesting to see how much faster they can make it work.

It is cool that they do advertise the 3 different choices people have to run windows though. but Boot Camp sounds like it is going to work extremely well.

 

This proves Apple steals just as many ideas from Microsoft as Microsoft steals from Apple. Windows has used that stacked idea since Windows 95. It is called a start menu.

 

Mmmmmmmmmmm Spaces looks FANTASTIC :O)

 

looks like that stack is a direct ripoff of StarDocks version called 'FlyOut"
except FlyOut runs like a carousel and has 2 and 3 tiers

have a look
http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/5131/flyoutir1.png

heres another version of flyout
http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/4426/flyout2bl5.png

 

Ah, but the entire menu bar/start button thing was originally copied from Apple in the first place. MS's great innovation was to put it at the bottom of the screen instead of the top.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fitts%27_Law for the reason they both do this.

 

Umm, that's a heirarchical menu (and the Start menu could be argued to be a "ripoff" of the heirarchical menu functionality in earlier versions of Mac OS, not to mention NextStep).

Either way, Stacks don't have anything to do with heirarchical menus. They're a different type of UI element (which Apple actually patented a long time ago, as "Piles").

 

Apple's patent on this functionality is considerably older than that....... it was originally rumored to debut back in Mac OS X 10.3 as "Piles", but hasn't appeared til now.

EDIT: Also, as a general point, the purpose and functionality of Stacks is kind of different anyway. In OS X, as shown, Stacks are more about documents, etc. (which was also the original purpose of Piles).

Apple didn't have to rip off anything, as it's a UI element they had already come up with a while before.

Considering that ObjectDock itself was designed as a "ripoff" of the functionality and look of the OS X dock, StarDock probably wouldn't have much room to complain anyway.

 

Who has watched Pirates of the Silicon Valley?

Anyway... back on topic here.

The graphical improvements are very nice, but the functionality in the new Finder and Stacks is going to make computing much nicer.

 

Piles is nothing extraordinary even when it came out over 10yrs ago.
In fact i think apple even abandoned the pile UI after a couple yrs

Any organized person can lump and file and save docs, folders, programs in a unified manner under head titles and/or genres.
To state apple invented a filing system (Piles) is ludicrous. The PC's start menu can virtually do the same thing

Stardock does more than 'stack' docs as its as customizable as what shirt you decide to wear any day of the week.

The fact that stack now looks as it does on the preview shows its taken some creative imaging cues from stardocks version

 

Piles was never in any Apple UI before; I don't get what you're talking about exactly.

Who stated that Apple invented a file system? The patent covered the specific concept of the UI element as it is seen here.

The point is how they are combined into a single UI element and how it can be interacted with. Obviously there are other ways to organize things.

As far as what Stacks does in terms of customization, that remains to be seen.

I'm not sure what you're getting at exactly.

What do you mean it came out 10 years ago, in particular?

And also, again, what is your point even if Apple were inspired by Stardock ObjectDock's fly-out menus?

Considering most of ObjectDock is a blatant ripoff of other UI elements, is someone supposed to get upset if someone did borrow elements they might have come up with?

Either way, Stacks seems to work pretty much exactly as described back in the old Piles patent apps.

I dont' see what your evidence is that Apple copied anything from StarDock, frankly. I would again say that StarDock implemented the ideas from Apple's Piles patent.

-Zadillo

 

Spoken from a true Windows fanboy full of ignorance. Mac OSX Tiger does with the start menu in Windows does. You place the Applications folder in the Dock and right click or hold down on the mouse the long list of programs shoots up just like the start menu in Windows. Been like that for 6 years. The stack feature in Leopard is nothing like that and don't be a hater just because Leopard is light years ahead of that Vista crap.
Microsoft stole the start menu from Apple. It was part of the Mac OS before Windows 95. The menu was always at the top of the screen on a Mac and then MS stole it put it at the bottom just as MS copied the Spotlight idea by placing it in the bottom left instead of the top right where Apple placed Spotlight.

 

It's the new Leopard improvements that have sold me on a Mac. Stacks removed the last fear I had of letting go of my Start menu, and the new unified look is something I actually like (never was a fan of random brushed metal and such).

 

Spoken from a true Mac fanboy full of ignorance

 

This was also something that could be done with the Apple menu way back before Win95 ever came out. As it is, the whole point of the Start Menu was to come up with a Windows equivalent to the Apple menu.

 

yes, piles is extremely old... ill have to google for some info

 

I honestly didn't see any ignorance in that post, except for the fact that what they were describing has been around for a lot longer than they described.

 

Ahh, fair enough. The actual patent and Piles functionality was developed around 1990.

So I'm not sure though exactly how this proves a point of Apple stealing anything from anyone. Apple didn't actually use this functionality back in the day.

It had been rumored though to debut in Mac OS X 10.3, but never did......... but not surprising that the people developing an OS X Dock imitation would pay attention to it.

What's been shown of Stacks so far seems to be a bit of an evolution certainly over the old Piles concept, of course.

 

I knew I would see several Windows fanboys today speaking negatively about Leopard. If those features were on Vista then you would laugh at all the Mac users for not having it first.

 

Sorry, I was mostly lauding the fact that someone upset by one person bashing his OS would end a post with "that vista crap." I've used OSX and Vista, and while OSX is the better OS overall, Vista has a few features that I found quite useful and much like the incremental and minor improvements that come out in new OSX builds - minor, but quite quite useful when viewed by someone who's familiar with the system.

 

No it was not "described" it was said that Apple stole an old idea that has been in Windows since Windows95 it it's called the Start Menu. I pointed out that Apple has always had a menu list of programs from the Applications folder and it performs the same way as the Start Menu and the drop down menu of programs has been available since the early years of Mac OS.

It's ignorance if you say something you don't know about unless you don't know what ignorance means.

 

Ahh, sorry, I had read your post as saying it was more relatively recent (you had said something about it being that way for 6 years now or something).

 

Btw, let me make sure I get this straight, about what is supposed to be seemingly outrageous "ripping off" on Apple's part:

1) Apple patents "Piles" UI concept in 1990, but doesn't really do anything with it.

2) Apple acquires NeXT, and begins work on a new Mac OS that is based on NextStep, including NextStep's signature "dock".

3) Mac OS X debuts with a dock.

4) StarDock develops ObjectDock, designed to be an imitation of the OS X dock.

5) Apple is rumored to be implementing their "Piles" concept as a feature in Mac OS X 10.3, but it doesn't materialize.

6) StarDock adds a similar functionality to their ObjectDock app, which may or may not be inspired by the rumors of it being added to OS X.

7) Mac OS X 10.5 Leopard is shown off with a "Stacks" feature that bears similarities to both their original "Piles" patent, but also on some level the fly-out menus of StarDock, and may or may not actually be inspired by it.

So, we're supposed to be outraged that Apple may or may not have borrowed a UI element that StarDock may or may not have based on a previous Apple idea, and implemented it in a product that is a direct imitation of the OS X dock?

I'm sorry, I just can't get that outraged by even the worst-case scenario, that Apple "stole" this element from a company who made a product that is entirely based around being "stolen" from Apple.

 

You know what I don't get? Why some people on one side or the other have to go at various things like that. The fact is, it doesn't really matter who came out with it first, who copied who, or which one is better (that's up to user preference).

I see no problem with the evolution of an OS be it Windows or OS X, but the fact is that even to this day Windows and OS X do some things different from each other. Nothing wrong with that.

I happen to think a few of the new features in Leopard look nice and are actually useful improvements, Time Machine being one in particular. Same thing with Vista over XP, it has some tangible improvements. But just because it's one operating system's turn for new features does not automatically make the other "trash".

 

yey guess you found out how old it was first lol
I wont use as strong as a word like 'stealing' but i do find the visual i-face of stack simular to stardocks flyout.
Whether its apples original desktop icon UI which has definately influenced a lot of stardocks own UI or other way around it all sums up to one thing and that it makes computer navigating a smoother experience.

Heres what ive found. This is what Piles was to look like

Easy there fella... its was just mths ago when Vista was announced that mac fanboys were highly critical of that too.
In a few yrs there wont be anymore comparisons anyways. With the way mac is slowly migrating pc softwear and hardware we will all be using just one big pc anyways lol

 

Sorry, just one last point.

At this point, we're pretty well beyond the point where anyone has a stranglehold on UI elements and concepts.

Getting off of Stacks for a bit, take "Spaces" in OS X. It is obviously based on the virtual desktops concept that has been in various UNIX and Linux systems for years.

But the idea that somehow Apple can't implement virtual desktops, or that it's ripping someone off, is kind of beside the point.

By the same token, I've seen a few things in Windows and Linux that echo the "Expose" function that debuted in Mac OS X 10.4.

It's just a reality now that developers are going to borrow and enhance the best UI ideas others come up with.

Going back to StarDock; they probably should be commended for not simply doing an imitation of the OS X dock, but also trying to come up with some new things (including maybe implementing ideas that Apple hadn't gotten around to actually doing yet).

Ultimately the question is more about whether this imitation or inspiration is handled well or not.

I think I'd point to Vista's Flip3d as perhaps an example of something that "imitates" without really offering a specific benefit. I suspect that MS didn't want to blatantly do an exact duplicate of Expose, for example, so they came up with Flip3D. But the problem is that Flip3D doesn't really IMPROVE on it; you get a "stack" where parts of each window are covered up, and you can only see the entire contents of the foremost window in the "deck".

Anyway, I think we're at a point now where it's less relevant who is "ripping off" who, as much as whether they are bringing new ideas to the table. And once those ideas come out, then yeah, they're going to push UI development forward on the other platforms as well. It's just a fact of life at this point.

So while Spaces may clearly be just Apple's own implementation of virtual desktops, I think they've also added something extra by combining it with the Expose concept, to make it very simple to view all of your "virtual desktops" at once, and easily move things back and forth between them in the "Expose" view.

 

I agree with you completely.

-Zadillo

 

word

couldn't be said better, both are doing something pretty significant things for computer users. and that is what comes down to really being important.

the idea of both OS's working the same doesn't make any sense at all, and doesn't lead to anything new.

microsoft and apple are both doing some pretty interesting things, all new ideas, microsoft is really starting to push some very interesting ideas in terms of natural input.

 

Is that really what you think Apple's idea is to end up on the PC? Just because Safari was announced today on Windows doesn't mean that. Safari on Windows was ingenious of Apple so they can pick up a lot of browser market share. Apple wants website developers to use Safari to create to create more browser compatibility for the Mac as well as market share. That's why Safari is on the iPhone.
When Vista was announced I never went to the Windows forums and start kicking Windows to the gutter. Unless some of you guys are interested in switching to the Mac I can't see why even bother posting on the Mac forum part of Notebook review. Windows fanboys will never say fair comments so why bother?

 

Yeah, one thing I'd say that's also worth pointing out is that I think Apple has come along way in terms of realizing people do want to use Windows too. Granted they'll still poke fun at Microsoft, but I think it's more in the vein of gentle ribbing at this point.

I think that the emphasis on Boot Camp (one of the cool unspoken features of Boot Camp is the new stuff to more quickly switch between OS X and Windows with Boot Camp, adding a "Switch to Windows" and "Switch to Mac OS X" menu item in both OS's, that puts both OS's in a sleep state to make it quicker to switch back and forth) and the acknowledgement of VMware and Parallels shows that Apple realizes that people do want to run Windows and Windows apps too, and I think it is nice they are making it easier to do that.

Honestly, even with the switch to Intel, I didn't really expect Apple to go as far as they have. I remember when the switch first happened, and you had the original grassroots projects by people to try and find ways to get Windows working on Macs; I was almost positive that this was going to be left up completely to the community, and that Apple themselves would never do much.

 

the fact that anyone is laughing at anyone is absolutely retarded.

none of you did >>>>>>>ANYTHING<<<<<<<< to influence what either company has done or will do. What they offer is what they think is good and what they want to use, and if other people like it great, if not, there are other options.

it is ok to be a fan of one thing or another, but no one deserves any credit for choosing one or the other, except for the people actually involved. I consider it great that there is a little bit of competition coming from both ends.

 

Fair enough. As far as visual simularities, I'm willing to acknowledge the possibility that Apple was at least aware of it when developing how Stacks works. I'd still probably make the point though that frankly, given how much StarDock has borrowed from Apple, I don't think they could get that upset if Apple "borrowed" something back.

One thing worth noting though; the shot above is from the patent application.

Probably not too far off, given the time period (stuff Apple was doing back then obviously didn't have the look of stuff they do now)...... but even so, patent application illustrations are normally designed to be completely minimalist, only enough to illustrate the concept described in the patent.

It's why when you look at Apple's "multitouch" patents, for example, they are just lots of squares and circles and such, rather than iPhone screenshots.

Either way, we'll never really know what Piles looked like when Apple was supposedly developing it for possible inclusion in 10.3 (or even if they really were). Piles as a concept was part of the old Mac Finder, which had no "dock" concept to speak of anyway.

 

exactly right, and Apple is not trying to really make Microsoft look bad necessarily, Soooooo many people miss out on the beauty of those commercials and little vista ads. I won't spoil it for you but watch them a little bit closer, it is PC guy that makes any of those ads work, Steve Jobs said it himself.

and Apple are in a different type of market than MS. they really are.

I think anyone that is a fanboy of either Apple or Microsoft should really watch the little D5 interview with Jobs and Gates, maybe that would turn that backwards way of thinking off

 

Well... i thinksome of the designers and media directors of Stardock may have who inspired the mac desktop of today or vise versa

some interesting reading if you find the time
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stardock#OS.2F2_Era_.281993_-_2001.29

 

Mac's OS/2 Essentials? Huh? What are you talking about? OS/2 was an IBM OS (jointly developed with Microsoft). Apple never had any connection to OS/2.

Apple's only partnerships with IBM were the Taligent joint company (which worked on the never-released "Pink" OS) and the PowerPC, of course.

As for the rest, you're going to have to enlighten me; who are the designers and media directors at StarDock that "inspired the Mac desktop of today"?

And the Mac desktop of today is from NeXT, not Apple anyway.

StarDock as a company apparently was founded in 1991, and started out as an OS/2 dev.

You're going to have to fill me in, what role did they have to do with ANYTHING relating to NeXT or Mac OS X, or even the original classic Mac OS?

Many former Apple people, from the original Mac team, have gone on to do many things..... but I hadn't heard of any of them ever being involved with StarDock.

Andy Hertzfeld, for example, one of the original designers of the Mac system software, went on to create Eazel and the Nautilus GUI for Linux and currently works for Google:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_Hertzfeld

Bill Atkinson went on to found General Magic. Etc.

But I don't know that any of them ever had anything to do with StarDock.

Assuming you meant the "current" Mac desktop, I'm not aware of any original NeXT guys either that work for StarDock.

 

the browser release is just another step to apple's grab at a market they couldnt get on their own. Apple sales peaked in 2000/2001 with slow upward growth. Before you comment on what i mean.... i mean Apple on its own (no, boot camp, no intel) peaked in the professional market as well as the consumer market.
Apple stock levelled for those yrs and the adaptation of what apple has done in the last yr or so is nothing more than...... well ill just say that old addage... if you cant beat em...join em.

touche!... you ever see those mac vs pc commercials???

 

To be fair, I don't think Safari is really about grabbing browser marketshare.

I think the only practical benefit of it is to make it easier for PC people who want to develop iPhone stuff to be able to

There wasn't any real significant investment for Apple to release Safari for Windows (most of the work of porting WebKit to Windows was done by Adobe as part of their development of Apollo).

Either way, I don't see anything wrong with Apple grabbing additional computer and laptop marketshare by switching to Intel and embracing the concept that people want to run Windows and Windows apps on their Macs as well.

Now, if Apple DOES want to grab browser marketshare, they should force-bundle Safari alongside iTunes/QuickTime. But I think it's frankly irrelevant to them.

-Zadillo

 

Stardock has its own forum and im sure i read on there that when stardock was working on OS2 that they were also assisting apple with their desktop gui
lemme find it

 

Also zadillo, its about experience. Apple already uses the iTunes styling as a sale factor for there Mac's. Even Steve did it today with "It's just like iTunes."

 

I honestly can't imagine what that would have been; helping with which desktop GUI and when?

In the 90's prior to acquiring NeXT, Apple was working on various things, but the GUI elements they were working on were just enhancements over the same basic Mac OS "look" going back to the 80's. The most radical GUI stuff was probably with the "Pink" OS being co-developed with IBM through their joint venture Taligent (this would seem to be the most logical place perhaps for StarDock to have some involvement, since they were already working with IBM.... I could maybe see StarDock working on Taligent stuff).

Apple also had a very strong "not invented here" attitude during that time period; I don't see how or why they would have needed StarDock to do anything, frankly. Apple didn't normally contract with outside companies on UI development (nor did they really need to at the time, because they simply weren't making any changes to their basic UI).

Outside of that, in any Apple history I've ever read (positive and negative), I've never seen any mention of StarDock having any significant involvement.

Anyway, the claim I think you were making is that StarDock helped develop or influence the Mac GUI, and the timing just doesn't make sense. The Mac UI was already set in stone in the early 90's......... anything StarDock could have done wouldn't have really had any effect.

And if they were helping with some in development GUI, it never came to fruition, because any old Apple stuff was basically thrown out the crapper once NeXT was acquired (as NeXT essentially took over Apple, and replaced the old Apple people).

 

Yeah, I could see that.

Although I'm not sure Safari could have the same effect. iTunes at least is an app that people had a specific need for (anyone buying iPods), and at least could be argued to be a nice app that may or may not have convinced people to try and check out Apple (I won't get into a discussion here of the problems with the iTunes for Windows app).

There isn't really a "reason" for people to download Safari.

And Safari doesn't really offer any really different experience anyway.

 

Heres is Steve Jobs ar WWDC



He is clearly comparing browser marketshare in his address. Its also obvious that browser marketshare is synonymous with hardware marketshare.
Hey, didnt Microsoft do this yrs ago by giving out free browsers while his competition Netscape was charging for its browser??? hmmmm..
Apple is just finally arriving to the show. Very late i might say but they finally arrived.