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    [Fixed/Workaround] Asus G51J(x) CPU throttling investigation

    Discussion in 'ASUS Gaming Notebook Forum' started by thalanix, Jan 20, 2010.

  1. thalanix

    thalanix Notebook Deity

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    testing, screenshots, results: http://g51jbsod.wikia.com/wiki/CPU_throttling
    BIOS disassembly: http://g51jbsod.wikia.com/wiki/BIOS_disassembly
    all discussion goes here.

    as with the BSoD thread, let's keep it mostly on topic.

    a short summary:
    under intense (power consumption) load, the CPU will be throttled to 900MHz. the simplest test is #3, run furmark and prime95 together while using RealTemp and GPU-z to watch clocks. observe what happens to the CPU when you toggle (space) rendering in furmark.

    READ BELOW IF YOU'RE INTERESTED IN REMOVING THE LIMIT (BOTH G51J AND G51Jx)

    http://g51jbsod.wikia.com/wiki/CPU_throttling#fix

    note that this might:
    - shut down your power brick (need a hard reset from the wall) if you pull more than it can provide
    - raise your temps by a good amount (especially during games that would throttle before)

    this does not:
    - disable thermal throttling for i2c and driver-based thermal monitors (ACPI, CPU, GPU)

    quick solution for windows:
    1) download the latest throttlestop @ http://www.fileden.com/files/2008/3/3/1794507/ThrottleStop.zip
    2) check off "Unlock bidirectional PROCHOT" and "Start minimized" in options
    3) uncheck "BD PROCHOT" in the main screen"
    4) drop a shortcut to throttlestop in your startup folder

    no more worries about throttling.

    /READ
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 8, 2015
  2. ALLurGroceries

    ALLurGroceries  Vegan Vermin Super Moderator

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    EDIT: WORKAROUND FOR LINUX:
    Code:
    sudo apt-get install msrtool
    sudo modprobe msr
    sudo wrmsr 0x1FC 2
     
  3. unclewebb

    unclewebb ThrottleStop Author

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    Have you guys tried ThrottleStop yet?

    It will let you monitor for the 3 main types of throttling that are being used on laptops. The Dell XPS 1645 owners have had great results using this tool and with a suitable power supply, they have been able to use ThrottleStop to reverse Dell's throttling schemes.

    Give it a try and post some feedback. If you run a log file when testing send it my way or post your results and I'll be happy to have a look at it.
     
  4. ALLurGroceries

    ALLurGroceries  Vegan Vermin Super Moderator

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    EDIT: NOPE. Just had to wait a few minutes. And then it starts swinging all over the place again. It looked like it worked... ARGH!
     
  5. DCMAKER

    DCMAKER Notebook Deity

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    ok so its not a psu problem but when you turn up the brightness it starts to throttle in windows. So its a power issue we think right? but its not from the psu so where does the screen pull power from? motherboard? psu? This is what i dont understand. Sorry i dont understand laptops. on a pc you have everything pulling form the psu rails(minus a few things pull from MB) So my point is if the power form psu goes to the laptop where does it first reach? after there how does it distribute? If the screen pulls from board that would mean the board is the problem right? but if there something thye power source reaches before the MB? The point is we need to know how the power is distributed between the hardware for us to figure out where the bottleneck is. That is if its a power distribution issue. Allurgrocies in his video made a statement saying ti could be a bios issue maybe. not saying it is or isn't. I dont know how bios would affect this because a power issue seems more realistic to em at least. Though my knowledge is limited ^^


    *EDIT* did see allurgrocies post. So ignore this if throttlestep works ^^
     
  6. ALLurGroceries

    ALLurGroceries  Vegan Vermin Super Moderator

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    EDIT: NO I was wrong. I just had to get the Intel monitor going, it still swings after 4+ mins in furmark.
     
  7. DCMAKER

    DCMAKER Notebook Deity

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    ok so if it works as a band-aod. What is the source of this problem? and does that mean leave throttle stop off so you dont eat your battery up but then turn it on if you plan on playing a game/use a heavy duty app?
     
  8. ALLurGroceries

    ALLurGroceries  Vegan Vermin Super Moderator

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    No I have to take that back. It seemed to lock it for a bit and then when it gets into it for a few mins it still swings, sorry I jumped the gun.
     
  9. DCMAKER

    DCMAKER Notebook Deity

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    blast. So back to my point. did you read my long post. If it is a power issue we need to find the bottle neck. I think you cna make sense on my post
     
  10. thalanix

    thalanix Notebook Deity

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    was about to say, unless my machine has deeper issues other than the keyboard light hotkeys not working, i don't see how else i can be doing this wrong. multi is locked to 13 (12 without turbo boost), and it still fluctuates.

    temps are not an issue.
     

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  11. 5150Joker

    5150Joker Tech|Inferno

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    Run the test with P95 (small TFT's 8 threads) + Furmark. Your active state never got close to 100% on the CPU.
     
  12. ALLurGroceries

    ALLurGroceries  Vegan Vermin Super Moderator

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    I have been doing that. It didn't move for about 2 minutes, I went to play MW2, didn't hiccup. Everything looked great. It must take a bit to stop locking the CPU.
     
  13. thalanix

    thalanix Notebook Deity

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    28:58 -> loading up prime/furmark
    29:27 -> prime95 @ 8x short ffts
    30:34 -> furmark started @ xtreme burn/1440x900/4xaa
    30:55 -> furmark stopped
    31:09 -> prime95 stopped
     

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  14. ALLurGroceries

    ALLurGroceries  Vegan Vermin Super Moderator

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    This just boggles me... why does it drop all of a sudden when I am running furmark+prime95 fft (the whole time).
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    Edit: I am STILL running furmark + prime95 fft...
    Code:
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  15. unclewebb

    unclewebb ThrottleStop Author

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    I assume you have ThrottleStop enabled and there is a check mark in the Set Multiplier box. If so then I guess it can't be used against this Asus throttling scheme. Excessive power usage must trigger something which limits the multiplier to 7.0 when it happens. This might only get checked every 5 or 15 seconds or whatever. I'm not sure.

    On some of the HP Envy 15 computers as soon as you go from AC to battery you are limited to a maximum of 7.0 as well. That kills performance during gaming and I don't know of any easy fix for this yet.
     
  16. ALLurGroceries

    ALLurGroceries  Vegan Vermin Super Moderator

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    Well, it almost worked! It locks but then it drops. I just saw it lock and was like OMG IT WORKED!! But it's not that simple. We need to get Ryzeki in here to put the PSU thing to rest.

    Edit: It's more like 2 minutes or something, instead of 15 seconds... at least on my logs.

    Edit deuce:
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  17. unclewebb

    unclewebb ThrottleStop Author

    Reputations:
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    Likes Received:
    6,726
    Trophy Points:
    681
    Post a screen shot of ThrottleStop so I can see how it is set up during your tests.
     
  18. ALLurGroceries

    ALLurGroceries  Vegan Vermin Super Moderator

    Reputations:
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    Likes Received:
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    Trophy Points:
    331
    [​IMG]

    Code:
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  19. unclewebb

    unclewebb ThrottleStop Author

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    ThrottleStop is set up correctly. Without Set Multiplier being checked does your computer spend more time at 7.0 or does ThrottleStop not make any difference to your results one way or the other? The Asus bios might be more aggressive with throttling down to 7.0 than the Dell bios is.
     
  20. ALLurGroceries

    ALLurGroceries  Vegan Vermin Super Moderator

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    Spends much more time @ 7.
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    It does something... otherwise I wouldn't have posted ZOMG IT WORKS! at first, so... it may be a good enough band-aid for gaming purposes. I'll have to try it some more.

    Edit: Any chance of source code? For teh Linux? Or a Linux port if not? I very rarely go into windows. It's mostly for stuff like this, troubleshooting the G51J. :(

    If not I'll have to "wait" for ASUS to "fix" their BIOS. Since there are no tools leaked for it that I can find...
     
  21. unclewebb

    unclewebb ThrottleStop Author

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    By looking at your logs it looks like it goes in a cycle where every so often it forces the multiplier down to 7.0 for about 3 seconds and then ThrottleStop is able to fix that before the bios comes back and tries again later.

    ThrottleStop was designed to work against the Dell throttling scheme. With some adjustments I might be able to improve it to better counter act this new Asus scheme. I'll check back tomorrow.

    Run a fresh log file while gaming and show me the results. Furmark + Prime is an excessive load. With normal gaming combined with ThrottleStop it might be better now.
     
  22. ALLurGroceries

    ALLurGroceries  Vegan Vermin Super Moderator

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    Alright, will do. But what about Linux? Any chance of source to work with or a port? I don't use windows often. So this is not a solution for me. Although I do appreciate it!
     
  23. unclewebb

    unclewebb ThrottleStop Author

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    I wouldn't give you my source code but if there is any Linux programmers out there that would like to write an app like this I would be more than happy to share what I know with them.

    Because the Asus is not using clock modulation or chipset clock modulation it would be very easy to write a simple program that raises the multiplier every time it detects that some outside force has lowered it.

    The Model Specific Register (MSR) that tells the CPU what multiplier to use is 0x199. All software needs to do is to monitor that register and when the bios sets it to 7.0, just reset it to 13.0 so your CPU can use it's default 12 multiplier plus any additional turbo boost that the CPU is willing to give you.

    That's for a Core i7-720. The i7-820 would need to use 14.0 instead.

    This isn't rocket science.
     
  24. ALLurGroceries

    ALLurGroceries  Vegan Vermin Super Moderator

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    Thanks for the tip, I got something ugly hacked together for linux based on msrtools.

    It goes back to 8 in a period of 4 seconds (edit: under the same load as furmark+prime95, just unigine+mprime). Is it really possible it's that aggressive?
     
  25. 5150Joker

    5150Joker Tech|Inferno

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    4 seconds is about what the Dell throttling scheme for the M15x is timed at as well.
     
  26. unclewebb

    unclewebb ThrottleStop Author

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    The XPS 1645 is fairly easy to correct and to keep it corrected but some other laptops use much more aggressive schemes.

    I have a few ideas in mind to try to improve my methods that I will be looking into during the next few weeks. If I can dream anything up, I'll send it your way for testing. I need to get one step ahead of the game so I'll be ready when Joker's M17x arrives. :D

    How did your gaming tests go on your Asus with ThrottleStop running? It would be interesting to see two log files with and without ThrottleStop running during the same game to see if there is a noticeable difference in the throttling.
     
  27. Risco

    Risco Notebook Deity

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    Oh great, so now Asus throttle? Jeez, it seems CPU tech is too far advanced for Laptop chassis cooling. :mad:
     
  28. 5150Joker

    5150Joker Tech|Inferno

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    LOL well if John B's smug answer is anything to go by the M17x-R2 should be throttle free. I guess the ultimate test will come soon enough. You know I'll PM you right away with the results. :D
     
  29. Cheeseman

    Cheeseman Eats alot of Cheese

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    So how safe is it to use the Throttlestop application on this laptop having a 120W adapter and all?
     
  30. ahmadmud

    ahmadmud Notebook Evangelist

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    I contacted XoticPC, for this issue with links to this thread and the wikia, and they replied the following:
    "Hello,

    We will forward these concerns and the details of this thread to ASUS. We assume ASUS will have to update the bios again for this issue. Once we get a update from ASUS this has happened we will let you know.

    Thanks,"

    Hopefully, we will get some help from ASUS.
     
  31. unclewebb

    unclewebb ThrottleStop Author

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    The biggest concern was using ThrottleStop with the woeful 90 watt power adapters that Dell is using on many of their laptops like the XPS-1645 series. A core i7-720QM + ATI 4670 requires more than 90 watts during many games so a person can enjoy their laptop the way Intel and ATI intended.

    I recommend that if you are using ThrottleStop you should monitor power consumption with a Kill-a-Watt meter or similar so you can see power usage as it is coming out of your wall. The Dell adapters are about 90% efficient so a 100 watt draw on the Kill-a-Watt translates to about 90 watts DC output from the adapter. Adapters are rated by how much DC power they can deliver to your computer and usually have an efficiency rating on them too.

    A 120 watt adapter is going to give you more wiggle room than the Dell users have. Gaming on an XPS 1645 translates to about 100 to 110 watts from the wall. Every computer is unique based on GPU and other hardware so that's why it's best to measure your computer.
     
  32. ALLurGroceries

    ALLurGroceries  Vegan Vermin Super Moderator

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    I am relatively confident, especially after doing the test I ran in my second vid on page 1 again with my cheap hack to unthrottle in Linux, that it's not a power (PSU) issue. It will get to 120W but it never goes above 133, which is the highest I've been able to draw, and that was with copying files from the DVD drive while also running prime95+furmark. It was still stable then and I ran that load for 10+ minutes, more than long enough to "melt" the system.

    I'll get back about the gaming results with throttlestop after I have some time to game, and thanks again for the tip!
     
  33. Cheeseman

    Cheeseman Eats alot of Cheese

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    Let us know how it goes, cause I'm not confident enough to game with Throttlestop enabled. :confused:
     
  34. ALLurGroceries

    ALLurGroceries  Vegan Vermin Super Moderator

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    When I use i7z to monitor the CPU, I can see the changes from writing directly to the MSR.

    When I yank out all of the ACPI modules, no cpu frequency scaling at all going on, I don't see the 4 second thing at all with my prog. Even on large FFT on mprime (prime95). When I add a gpu benchmark on top of that it starts throttling like crazy and my program is sometimes effective, sometimes it doesn't do anything at all. I check at .002 sec intervals and set it whenever it's not at 13. When this happens I can read the MSR and it says 13. Also directly writing the MSR by hand has no effect, since it's already apparently at the value I am writing.

    I read in the intel whitepaper that if the voltage gets to a certain ("factory-configured") level it won't let the cores go higher:
    It's not temperature. It doesn't seem to be power draw from the PSU (where is ryzeki with the 150W psu to test so we know for sure?!) Would that make it a voltage issue? This implies it's hardware, not BIOS, for the throttling. If the CPU needs more juice it would of course have to come from a BIOS update.
     
  35. ryzeki

    ryzeki Super Moderator Super Moderator

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    Sorry, real busy right now.

    I didn't have much time but running TMonitor, Furmark and Prime 95 all together gets me 933mhz speed on all cores.

    Running Prime95 8 threads custom alone runs all cores at 1733mhz but they show drops to 933mhz (sometimes 1 core, sometimes all 4 simultaneously) for a split second every 4 seconds or so.

    Tomorrow I will try more tests though why are the cores running at 933mhz when I try furmakr+ prime?
     
  36. ALLurGroceries

    ALLurGroceries  Vegan Vermin Super Moderator

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  37. ryzeki

    ryzeki Super Moderator Super Moderator

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    I downloaded throttlestop, tried furmark+prime small ftt, furmark with extreme burning test 1440x900 4xmsaa, enabled throttlestop with multiplayer 13....

    And the CPU still throttled to multiplier 7.0 as soon as I fired furmark. Soemthing I am not doing right?
     
  38. ALLurGroceries

    ALLurGroceries  Vegan Vermin Super Moderator

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    No... thanks. That is exactly in line with the results we have been getting. Just means the 150W psu is not making a difference. I think the next candidate is voltage. I am no system architect but the intel turboboost paper implies that.
     
  39. ahmadmud

    ahmadmud Notebook Evangelist

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    ok, I don't know if this is related or not, but while I was playing RE5 online, I noticed a drop in performance, and then when I check GPU-Z, I saw this:
    2010-01-21 19:27:12 , 600.0 , 950.0 , 1500.0 , 61.0 , 87 , 0 , 1 , 0 ,

    2010-01-21 19:27:13 , 383.0 , 301.0 , 767.0 , 61.0 , 87 , 0 , 1 , 0 ,

    does any body have any idea why it's downclocking itself?
     
  40. ALLurGroceries

    ALLurGroceries  Vegan Vermin Super Moderator

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    That's probably powermizer, you can disable it in the nvidia control panel.
     
  41. ahmadmud

    ahmadmud Notebook Evangelist

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    yep you are right, now it's gone :eek:

    do you always disable it to avoid the performance drop?
     
  42. 5150Joker

    5150Joker Tech|Inferno

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    You guys can combat the throttling in Windows by suspending ACPI. The downside to it is that you have to run a couple batch files each time, one to disable ACPI and the other to enable it. This should take care of the CPU throttling entirely as long as it's not a physical motherboard problem. It works a bit differently than throttlestop in that Windows no longer can accept commands from the bios to throttle the CPU. Here's the instructions:

    Give it a try and see if it helps. I don't know if the GPU portion applies to you guys or not.
     
  43. ALLurGroceries

    ALLurGroceries  Vegan Vermin Super Moderator

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    It still throttles after disabling frequency scaling and ACPI in Linux. I think it could be voltage or actual power distribution... thanks tho, I'll be interested to see if this works on windows.

    Edit: Just tried it twice, rebooted for the second try. Makes no difference suspending the acpi.sys threads on prime95+furmark.. :(

    I'd say keep it disabled, unless you are concerned about battery life. The driver shouldn't act like that but it does, so manually disabling it before a game is another option if you don't want to always have it disabled.
     
  44. VZX

    VZX Notebook Evangelist

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    Other than Sager 8690, are there any other laptops from other brand with Core i7 + powerful GPU shows this throttling problem? M15x, XPS1645, and this machine use Core i7 and GTX260M (Radeon 4670 for XPS 1645 case) and they have throttling problem.

    Actually, I'm not sure if there's enough of Sager NP8690 users out there to bother to test with this throttling problem. Maybe this throttling problem is just problem wide with Core i7 and powerful GPU.
     
  45. ALLurGroceries

    ALLurGroceries  Vegan Vermin Super Moderator

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  46. DCMAKER

    DCMAKER Notebook Deity

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    allurglorcies did you test what i was experiencing in prime95? where the load is bounceing between cores?


    edit i remove it. your
    Code:
     thing doesn't work *shrug*
     
  47. unclewebb

    unclewebb ThrottleStop Author

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    DCMAKER: Is that log from TMonitor?

    Based on the November 2008 Intel Turbo White Paper, TMonitor does not seem to follow the method that Intel recommends to determine the multiplier on Core i7 CPUs. I'm not sure why he doesn't follow this method and I don't agree with the accuracy of the log file that it generated for you.

    Give ThrottleStop a try and you will be able to see what each thread is up to based on Intel's recommended method. i7 Turbo is another program that follows the correct method.

    When running a single threaded task, the Core i7/i5/i3 are designed to put as much load as possible on as few cores as possible. This lets the other cores go into the C3/C6 sleep state which allows the one active core to use the highest multiplier possible. The fewer cores in the active state, the more turbo boost the CPU is allowed to give the active core or cores. Turbo boost is changing hundreds of times a second based on load.

    Edit: When posting log files try using the code html tags.

    [ code]

    Log File

    [ /code]

    Just leave out the first space before the word code or /code.

    Another Edit: I asked a friend to try out TMonitor 1.02. He gave the previous version a good test and like myself, he wasn't impressed. Here's his opinion of the latest version.

    [​IMG]

    CPU-Z and TMonitor both come from CPUID. One shows a multiplier of 23 and the other shows a multiplier of 12 at idle. They can't both be right.
     
  48. ALLurGroceries

    ALLurGroceries  Vegan Vermin Super Moderator

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    So unclewebb, any clues you can drop as to whether this could be a power/voltage issue (in reference to the turbo whitepaper)? And secondly, is that purely a CPU design thing, or is that fixable by a BIOS update? I'm pretty sure I'm not "doing it wrong" with writing/reading the MSR on Linux. As I said it seems to act *sort of* the same as throttlestop, in that it sometimes works, sometimes doesn't... and I apologize for not getting any gaming logs to you yet. It's hard for me to reboot out of Linux since I have to drop everything I'm doing. I haven't had time for a good gaming session but since it's the weekend I should be able to soon.
     
  49. unclewebb

    unclewebb ThrottleStop Author

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    The CPU is not designed to throttle back like that unless it is over heating which is not the case. It looks like a bios issue to me but I don't know if Asus will do anything to correct that.

    No hurries. Whenever you get around to doing some gaming then post or upload a log to www.sendspace.com or wherever is convenient. Prime + Furmark is not a normal load. During most games or any other normal task, you probably won't ever have a problem.
     
  50. ALLurGroceries

    ALLurGroceries  Vegan Vermin Super Moderator

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    I just rebooted and steam updated itself. Now even after a chkdsk codmw2 will not run. That is all the headache from windows I can take for now. :( :p

    Without a BIOS update is there a chance you can get throttlestop to work around this? There must be some voodoo u are doing because writing the msr alone doesn't always actually keep the multi at the value I wrote.

    Edit: Also this is what I was asking about, the intel paper seems to imply power and voltage are also in the mix...
    So are these "factory configured limits" in the BIOS, or are they Intel specs? I haven't been able to find that part out.
     
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