NVIDIA460 vs. ATI 5870 real life

Hi,

can anyone post hand to hand real life game fps (no artificial benchmarks bs) for the JW and JH models.

I was set to buy JW model, but after reading "M15x got the 460", I am little bit reluctant. They diss 460 soo much. basically, they saying that 460 is much much weaker than 5870 and even weaker than 5850, while on asus forums I read that 460 is just little bit weaker than 5870.
help appreciated.

so, wassup?

 

I don't think the 460m is actually weaker than the 5850. They have equal performance. It depends on what game you play. Some games are optimized for NVIDIA GPUs and so they perform marginally better on them.

The only actual difference is when you deal with designing software such as photoshop, flash etc where CUDA can be used.

Otherwise, in gaming wise they are almost the same with a few FPS here and there depending on the game.

 

It depends on who you ask.

When you compare HD5870M and GTX 460M with Vantage scores, what you want to look at is the GPU Score. Not the overall or CPU, just GPU score.

800/1125 what I use for gaming for up to 4 hours in a session. I never game with clocks lower than this.


Just for benchmarking fun, 850/1200 (same clock setting as desktop HD5770)


All gaming benchmarks @ 800/1125 which are the settings I used to game Dragon Age: Origins for 5 hours today because it's raining and 0C outside and it's Sunday.





Dirt 2 Ultra Settings no AA



Lost Planet 2, Nvidia DX11 done stupid. Example: Why does background that should have been just efficient use of large texture needed to be tessellated when normally with Depth of Field never notice if it was tessellated or not?? Why does flat surface need to be tessellated? Tessellation is about makeing CLOSE object detail better. Not distant objects no one is paying attention to, GPU resources absolutely wasted. Why are bullet explosions tessellated? Something that appears for less than a second needs to be tessellated? An Nvidia paid game, DX11 implemented by morons. BTW it runs crap on Nvidia also, Nvidia screwing over their own customers, real smart...



Lost Planet 2 DX9: Another example of PC Gaming hate... And it's sponsored by Nvidia, the irony is just revolting! Any modern GPU is now DX10.1 compliant. DX10.1 is on average 30% faster than DX9 but these moron game developers continue to release DX9 that performs poorly.



Bad Company 2, used Fraps, attached benchmark Excel files with FPS, Min/Max/Avg.









Crysis Warhead

Ken has video of a massive OC on GTX 460M on the G73JW 820/1640/1420. I don't have camera, so I can only post benchmark. I'll use the same settings he used.
- But I can say while playing the same scene as he did, I was averaging between 38-60 FPS, avg 45. The benchmark has tons more explosions than in that scene.
http://forum.notebookreview.com/6772335-post370.html



Nvidia Heaven 2.1 Tessellation Extreme (top) vs Normal (bottom) visual comparisons, Tessellation done by morons. Images are of actual size 1080p

As you can see, visually no difference. Frankly it looks like crap, extreme vs normal. This is the face/nose of the dragon



With wireframe you can see how much more dense extreme is vs normal. But you can't visually see this unless you turn on wireframe.



Rest of the scene, tessellating everything to the extreme is idiotic, DX11 implemented by morons. Show up close of actual size of the tree and the cobblestone with wireframe to show how dense it is and how dumb this is.



The distant trees are seriously tessellated? Image is of ACTUAL size 1080p


Can't be serious right? So dense it's just a mass of white. Image is of actual size, 1080p

 

ruckus pretty much summed it up.

 

Thx for the response.
so, without getting too technical, you sayin' that 5870 is much stonger of a GPU than 460, and that with JH my fps will jump up drastically?

 

Mafia 2 Ultra settings:

460M - ~33 FPS (33/32.9)

5870M - 41.1 FPS

+19.71% to the 5870M

Starcraft 2 Ultra settings:

460M - ~34FPS (31.6/36)

5870M - 37.2 FPS

+8.6% to the 5870M

Metro 2033 Ultra settings:

460M - ~9FPS (9/9.6)

5870M - 10.6FPS

+15% to the 5870M

*neither are playable

CoD MW2 Ultra settings:

460M - ~44 FPS (41.3/47)

5870M - ~50 FPS (48.7/50.7/51.1)

+12% to the 5870M

Battlefield: Bad Company 2 Ultra settings:

460M - ~30 FPS (29/30)

5870M - ~32 FPS (30.9/32.7/33.1)

+6.25% to the 5870M

Anno 1404 Ultra settings:

460M - 44 FPS

5870M - 81 FPS

+45.8% to 5870M

SIMS 3 High:

460M - 61 FPS

5870M - 81 FPS

+ 24.7% to the 5870M

Crysis GPU Benchmark Ultra:

460M - ~13FPS (12.9/13)

5870M - 17.1FPS

+23.97% to 5870M


I pulled these numbers off notebookcheck

 

More or less 5-10% difference or (1~10 FPS). Remember Mobile cards are different than their desktop counterparts so even though you got the same name it's still doesn't have equal power.

Both companies also have screw ups.I own both ATI/AMD or Nvidia cards in the past but I just grab the best bang for the buck.

 

IMO yes. But as said above, it depends on you ask.

 

I think he edited that info out... (cause I don't see any bad info on OCing the HD5870m).

 

thx guys, its very helpful

 

Ruckus, you seem to know a lot about this. I downloaded Chastity's OD vbios. I tried setting the Amd gpu clock tool to 800/1100 but I got some serious artifact on furmark (I think it was screen tearing but I don't know). Then I ran it at 750/1050 without issue and only a 1-2c increase in temperature. Playing Crysis I couldnt really see a difference though.

What do you need to do to get 800/1100? Increase voltage? How much is too much? Is my gpu one of unlucky ones?

 

when i do benchmarking i always go to 833/1144 with no artifact..voltage normal and running also on garys vbios and mobility 10.10..and temps seems to be stable..

for me above 850/1180 is too much there are some small artifacts dots dots and dots of it..

above that clock laptop freeze and bsod happens hahah nightmare...

 

By the time I received my G73jh I had already read up on numerous threads on how to optimize the machine. I did a clean install with a clean copy of Windows 7 direct from Microsoft, not the Asus OEM version. I only installed the P4G Hybrid and a few drivers from Asus. I'm using the absolute latest chipset driver from Intel, Realtek, 10.10c Catalyst from AMD, latest WiFi from Atheros etc. My source for drivers mainly from Guru3D, Rage3D, and Station Drivers.

I use OverDrive in the Catalyst Control Center. That's all I can tell you. That's problem with PC, there are just too many different factors involved.

Good luck.

 

Except for in the pro market Nvidia is exclusively used Every major game dev and film studio wouldn't touch ATI for content creation. I know this for a fact

 

That's cool, I use my laptop to play games. Benchmarks don't lie. The 5870M is a stronger performer than 460M.

 

I have gamed 901/1125 for 3 hours straight and it was completely stable. Try doing that with a 460M... This is a 5850 btw.
Max temps were around 82C GPU, 93C MemIO, 84C Shaders, which I believe is perfectly safe.
Stock temps are much lower however. Around 64C GPU, 79C MemIO, and 67C Shaders.


@ Others, Mine can't do over 1175 on memory without getting all funky. What counts the most though, is the GPU clock.

 

Oh yeah no doubt. The 5870 is pretty freaking amazing. I love it for games on the go. ATI knocked it out of the park!

I just find it funny how some ATI fanboys keep calling Nvidia incompetent in there rendering techniques when all of the cutting edge 3d graphics are made with Nvidia. Im mean come on guys, they own mental ray. Nvidias engineers are FAR superior to ATI's when it comes to GFX as a whole

But all in all, im glad I have an ATI in the lappy and Nvidia in the desktop.

 

looks like I am getting the JH version then.

Noob questions.

once I get the system, I'm gonna do clean install of WIn7. For the 5870, which stable/good/working drivers I need to use? I am probably not going to OC or anything like that. I dont want to deal with GSOD and other bs. I just want latest, but stable drivers (will the 10.10 from AMD website would work?).

 

bump 10 char

 

You need to update the vbios to use anything other than stock video drivers

 

Something to consider is that the JH is like a 60's muscle car. It has a lot of issues. Once it is dialed in, it works great, but you need to tinker with it. You sound like someone who wants it to work from the get go. If it was my money, I'd get the JW for the simple reason that it does not have all the issues that plague the JH. A stock JH typically runs 90c+ under load. A stock JW run 75c under load, and that's on the stock paste. A repasted JH still doesn't run as cool as stock JW (I've repasted twice with ICD7 and the best I can do is 79c in Crysis). Imagine how cool a JW would be if it was repasted. This isn't even including the GSOD issues people still get with the JH.

Yes stock, apples to apples the JH is <10% faster, but that is probably not going to affect your gameplay unless you overclock. Since you are not going to overclock, I'd get the more stable cooler running JW. It also has a USB 3.0 port which is nice.

 

Don't forget how bad the touchpad button is on the JH. It sucks so bad that it is like heaven when you get to use a regular 2 button touchpad.

 

One thing I have noticed with ATI graphics is some things just do not work right if you try to use a new graphics driver from Ati instead of the manufacturer supplied one. Where I saw this first was a few years ago with a Toshiba laptop with ATI. I used a series of new graphics drivers and all had a problem when I would watch flv movies or download flv. It may have been avi etc also. The picture would look very wrong like it was made out of pix-elated square blocks. It looked like the same thing when I tried Ati drivers with G73jh so was stuck with stock drivers. I tried many setting but never worked. Gaming and everything else was fine or better though.

 

you have to update the VBIOS!!!!

 

Not really. It had a tonne of issues, but asus has straightened it out. Right now, the JH and JW have the same number of issues.

 

im a jh owner... and imma tell you that i never seen gsods or any sods personally... i play games for hours but i never encountered those.... maybe i just got a good system... for the heat problem... yes, it goes to 80 to 90+ under load.. but after i repasted it... i barely goes more than 80 on some games... it depends on how you've done it though... i would suggest you to get the jw.. since it has a small number of problems out of the box.. but if you want a better performance.. then go with jh... also if you'd like to get rid of jh's issue.. fixing those aren't that hard.. and of course NBR folks are here to help you out...

 

if u did a vBIOS update , you'd nver see GSOD's... for those ppl getting them , do vBIOS update.. so i gather that G73 beats GTX460M in DX11 when oced or not?

 

You have to do a VBIOS update on the JW series "first thing?" JW have GSOD? JW doesn't have a two button touchpad? JW series typically runs up near 100 at full Furmark load? JW typically needs to have its cooler repasted?

As far as I am aware, the JH even in its "updated" state has not fixed most of these.

I think the above poster is right to compare the JH to a finicky car. It performs marginally better most of the time, significantly better rarely, but has a list of ATI-specific issues (VBIOS/GSOD/GPU temp) that the 460m-based JW do not.

There ARE issues that both have, including the keyboard missing keystrokes for example. (But that issue's been in every Asus G-series laptop since at least my Asus G50Vt-X1 so I don't think that's going away any time soon.)

Personally, for a LAPTOP, I'd take reliability and longterm stability over a performance improvement that is usually only a marginal difference that doesn't affect playability. With such a significant difference in temperature, longterm it will be more likely your hardware will continue working. Even if it's rated for 105 max and it's running near 100 when you play your demanding games for hours, eventually it's MUCH more likely to fail. If it's rated for 105 max and you're running near 90 instead, you're more likely to still have a usable laptop than if it were near 100. Why play the odds? Plus, the fans will be louder trying to keep the system cooler if yours winds up running that much hotter.

And I'd not be comfortable with the idea that to get closer to proper temps I'd have to reseat the cooler and repaste. Having paid as much as you pay for one of these machines, I just don't think that should be required.

But that's just me.

 

Yep just you.

Anyone who buys an enthusiast level pc does all of the above. Whether you buy an Alienware, Clevo or have a desktop, enthusiasts repaste, flash to the latest vBios, latest MB Bios and do all of the tweaks. Getting best performance is always the goal. So even if the G73jh original temps were just in the low 90s, I wouldn't be satisifed and repaste. Even if I bought a G73JW, I'd still take it apart and replace the pads and paste and reseat the heatsink.

And pretty sure many Alienware, Clevo, MSI and Asus owners do the exact same regardless how well it runs stock. Stock doesn't cut it. So if G73jh stock isn't as good, don't care. Would have redone the thermals anyways.

And doesn't matter to me even if the GTX 460M may be better, which it most definitely is not. I wouldn't care. Having AMD is better than Nvidia for me as long as Nvidia are the bane of PC Gaming. I rank Nvidia above Apple for being d-bags.

As for the touchpad buttons. Really? I couldn't care less. Frankly if the G73jh shipped with NO BUTTONS, I'd still buy it. I never use them. Double tap on the touchpad is much faster and easier anyhow. If I'm using the touchpad, I'm just doing wordprocessing and web browsing and I never use the buttons. If I'm doing anything else, I have my mouse which I carry with me no matter where I go thanks to the backpack.

 

I respectfully disagree. I am not bashing the JH, I love my JH! If the JH did not have so many issues, I wouldn't own this awesome computer! It is only because of the GSOD and 100C+ temps, that I was able to buy this computer basically brand new on craigslist for $750, send it in for RMA, and have it fixed (motherboard was bad). I love my JH, but part of the reason I love it so much is it cost me $750+25 shipping.

For new buyers spending $1400-1500+, things are different. How many posters have we seen say they want a computer but want it be reliable? A ton! But then we all tell them buy the JH (because JH owners currently outnumber JW owners).

If as you say most gaming PC owners are enthusiasts, why are they posting on here asking which computer to buy? A true enthusiast (like yourself) would read the posts and determine the JH performs better and buy it (like the guy who just traded his Clevo for a JH). A recreational user would post asking for help (and they do every day). I think we do them a disservice telling them to buy a JH. If people want maximum performance they will buy the JH. If they want maximum reliability, they should buy the JW. I think most recreational users want reliability. How many posts have you seen where people say they are afraid to repaste, re-flash, etc? Dozens! I made the Newb's repaste thread just so people wouldn't be afraid to repaste but if you look around you'll still see many owners who won't repaste. Not all gaming laptop owners are enthusiasts, and most are not as technically savvy as you are. Be careful convincing them to buy a JH.

PS: You should make a "how to overclock your GPU thread" to prove the JH is so great, I for one would appreciate it!

 

completely agree,

go for JW if you aren't technical enough or just simply don't have time to tweak all the issues in JH. not saying JW doesn't need tweaking, it certainly does, just less of a headache.

 

Dramatic much?

Anyway in real world scenarios theres not much difference you will notice in gameplay. If you buy computers to do benchmarking then yes you should get the 5870. The 460m can overclock just fine too if you want to do that. I've successful gamed and benchmarked at 800Mhz (default clock is 675mhz) but I just keep it at a safer 725 for every day use.

As for "repasting being a requirement for this hobby" - that is just ludicrous. And people have repasted the 460m and seen no noticable temp difference - Asus is doing it great right out of the box. They probably learned from whatever mistakes were made on the g73h.

You are going to be happy with either machine to be frank. Loyalty or fanboyism towards hardware manufacturers is laughable. Just buy what works for you. For me it was a high performance but affordable 15" laptop and this one fit the bill. The other requirement was outstanding cooling or else I probably would have went with the MSI GX640 for similar performance but the cooling cannot compare to the g53. I don't want to have to use a notebook cooler or cook my hands on the keyboard. Oh, and also 2 hard drive bays Fairly certain the MSI doesn't do that but maybe I'm wrong.