Upgrade a G73-jh to 6970?

All this electricity talk.

It will most likely be a fail safe hamster that Asus reverse engineered into the motherboard to attack any GPU that was not stock.

Tijo already confirmed it worked and could be tested and that it died just like the other 6970M test when it was at idle so it cannot be heat or power killing it. If all sections of the GPU are conducting with the heatsink there has got to be something that Asus have done to the motherboard when putting the 5870M in. The hardwired voltage that the 5870M has confirms they have definetely tinkered and its causing the card to fail.

 

So why did it not kill a MSI 5870 ? That is a nother gpu in a way (non asus). Only thing they have in common is the 50 W and voltage. The 6970 on the other hand starts at 75-100W.

Cant be a hiden search and destroy command or a hardwired chip to kill non asus GPU-s. Now the A and W can be hotwired but it the W was set to 50 then the card would not start at all. With A its a whole other ball game. That will not stop the card from sarting if the voltage and W is correct.

Also some 6970 notebook heatsinks cover the GPU whole card but on some it only cover the mem and core.

Hope to some money for the card before the semester start. I would still like to test it on a bench wothout the case so i can see the card and monitor all the components with infrared camera.


Why i think the voltage and w is hotwired is that what if the Asus card gets raw power? and the fact that the card is bigger is that the extra length is used to add for parts that correct the juice ?.... might be....but would need to test this theory.

 

This is excerpt from technical document that defines MXM standards.
(Power:OEM modules can rely on additional voltages supplied by the motherboard. OEM reserved
pins are provided by the specification. All MXM version 3.0 compliant modules will not connect
these pins.
Signals:OEM modules are allowed to use extra signals provided by the motherboard. OEM
reserved pins are provided by the specification. All MXM version 3.0 compliant modules will not
connect these pins.)

So only good God knows what asus did here.

 

And your physics teacher is totally right... and I never said that more current doesn't create heat.
But did your Physics teacher also tell you what happens when you raise the voltage? ... I mean how can you increase the current? Think about it


Back to topic:
@jmhdj: Very good point... as we're talking about Asus it's totally possible that they have some crazy special pins... I mean take a look at the GPU in the G74 and you know what this company is capable to do, hahahah

 

Was reading the MXM 3 specification paper too.

One thing i do not get it if the socket and card is standard then that mean the pins have to connect but as we know asus then they might not go anywere.


Would still like to find out why the wider card on the JH there has to be some reason why they did not go standard MXM ( Get the point that they want ppl to buy new notebooks in the future)


To svl7 yes she did tell us that. But with a max output of 20V on a standard MXM you cannot cook a card if the amperage is corrct (if the asus motherboard gives it upto 20V)
Is the motherboard giving it that I do not know. At first was thinking that asus was overvolting the GPU and using the larges space to lower the voltage and correct current to what is needed but that would not explain the MSI card working with the G73.


To bad we cannot get more info on the asus GPU and how it is built. Like hell asus is going to tell us that

It might take 10 or more dead 6970-s but there might still be a way to get it working. At least we know it works and with correct vbios it is up to spec.....now just need to find the killer.

Strange is that the fans worked this time or did i miss the post were tijo said they were at 100%

 

They worked

 

Why do they use a wider card? That's pretty easy to explain, it costs much less. The standard MXM have all or even more components on a smaller PCB, this needs to be a highly complex multi-layer board, otherwise it won't work.
By making the PCB bigger you can save a lot of money since you have a bigger area for the conducting paths and don't need as many layers.

 

lol so whats killing the 6970

 

I guess it is my turn to sacrifice and find out . At my next payment I have decided to purchase 6970m and find for my self what is going on here. So my question is where is best/cheapest place to order it for europe/scandinavia.? Wish there is some other cheap place to buy it instead of ebay.
Any sugestions are welcomed.

 

You might want to hold on because:

A. The 6970M could well be faulty from all of the recent information released.
B. The 6990M has just come out and that would obscene to try that instead.
C. The 6970M will be listed thick and fast cheap on ebay once people start throwing the 6990M in the their AW laptops.

 

To sum it up: has anyone successfully exchanged the cards yet?

 

If you read back through the last 10 pages you will see that Tijo successfully replaced the cards and it worked until he hit a 'dead' end which is still being discussed.

 

If you are going to do this, I suggest you get a Dell edition of the card, and make sure the retailer tests the card first under stress conditions.

 

Just looking at MXM-upgrade again and MSI GX660 HD6970 upgrade Sounds a bit similar ? low clocks.

If you look at M17x and msi GX660 heatsink then you can see that it covers the whole card and not surten part of it like on the G73. It has to be heat related death wich might be good news. In the link they say that the low clock might have been a discrepancy between the power modes of different cards from different manufacturer.

The 6970 prices are going down by every 2 weeks now. As soon as the 6990 hits MXM and ebay the 6970 prices should go down faster.

Ill be taking the risk too in september with my G73 as I will be getting a smaller notebook for work. If the 6990 price range will stay under 500euro then might get that.

 

Rezing this thread.

Was just reading MXM-upgrade and found this:

"Normally, we use this page to announce what we can do. But as we get a lot of requests for these machine we'll you what we can't.

The G73JH card, as shown, is kinda like MXM but not really. Doesn't matter that it says 'MXM' on the board: it's not. You could label the Eifel Tower MXM, doesn't make it so. The biggest mechanical difference is circled. The JH machine is actually a bit closer to the spec, at least our HD6970 fits mechanically but the card won't put anything on the display.

In summary: we have no solution for these machine...
"

Thats a first. So far all the 6790 here have booted but died when testing.

 

Then how did some ppl get picture with it?

 

Well thats what they have on the front page of mxm-upgrade.com

I think they are talking about the JW and not the JH all though they say that they did the test with a JH. Some one needs to email them the link to this thread

 

If I knew what I was doing I would try it but I dont and it will fail and burn and melt I fully support your attempts and would be interested to see a third time lucky go at it. I would most definetely pick one up near the end of the year to prevent my need to upgrade early 2012 if it works.

Just need a heatsink that can modified and will fit perfectly. A nice shiny full copper one.

 

I agree. Someone needs to fab a custom copper heatsink for 6970/6990 for JH. Anybody know a copper fab facility? I might be able to take some measurements and maybe throw together a 3D model to work from, but no promises there.

I've been reading this thread like a sci-fi thriller. I don't think the story has ended yet and I mad respect those who have tried. Maybe the 6990 will turn out to work better.

Small question, has anyone tried the swap without reassembling their JH? Just put all the parts together on a table or rack, make sure esd isn't possible (like a clean room for instance), and isolate the motherboard and give it the best possible cooling. Maybe that way the heat issues could be identified more accurately.

Which pin on the card draws power? Can't you use a multi-meter and measure the power draw of both the 5870 and 6970? If the motherboard is out and isolated all that needs doing is a quick swap and you don't even have to change heatsinks necessarily if you have two.

Is this too crazy? Just throwing it out there. I wish I had money to throw around, I really do. If I did I'd be jumping in with you guys. You are legends keep up the good work

 

I'm going to throw my hat into this ring. It wont be for a month or two, since I have to get my 920xm first, but I wanna have a go at this. Sure, it's risky burning up $400, but for me it's not the destination that is fun- it's the road traveled to get there. I really think that proper cooling and starting at an undervolted rate would be a good start for this card. Under these conditions, I feel it would at least make it last a little longer, possibly allowing enough analysis to find out what's really going on.

 

They tried it with a JW which most definitely has BIOS locks to only Nvidia cards.

We have people running the MSI HD 5870 in the G73JH just fine. So the card is MXM 3.0b to the spec. This alone makes MXM-upgrade's situation incomparable with what JH owners are facing.

The ASUS card has 1-2 lesser layers because they have extended the PCB by 10-12% Its cheaper for mass production to reduce layers. (ASUS cutting corners)

I was going to buy the 6990M and do a modified heat sink, power supply and heat pipe for the JH, but the total cost is coming out to be nearly 700, not worth it for me. The performance jump isnt high enough to worth 700USD (sheesh thats the cost for a desktop HD 6990!).

If the HD 7000s are out on the Cayman arch and depending on how many SPs they put on the mobile unit, I will probably target that one instead. Also the slated stock Max TDP for the upcoming Wimbledon MXM 3.0 card is 65 watts. AMD states a standard HD 5870 card is at 50-55 watts? In the JH's case its really closer to 65 watts calculated from the board. This is no surprise as they are already using non-reference PCB and components so power usage cant be directly compared with other regular HD 5870s

Its better for the thermals and the avoiding a PSU mod if you plan on taking a shot with the HD 7000Ms.

Another important reason for the HD 6970Ms failing is because the cooling on the Inductors are non-existent with the current ASUS heat sink. Plus after modifying them you have no cooling what so ever since you are chopping of appendages that don't fit for the standard card. Most of you are also reporting bad thermal spread on the GPU core? It points to the height differences to the HD 6970's components and that of ASUS HD 5870's. Lapping areas of the heatsink may help level the zone for better contact.

If you guys are planning on the HD 6990m or the HD 6970M you have to absolutely get a custom heat sink, or else I can you guarantee you it will burn again. Maybe you will have it run fine for a few days before it fails. But fail it will. Those guys who are running the MSI HD 5870s in their G73JHs might not have much long life on their cards because of the heatsinks being slightly different in their seating.

 

I am gone have a go at it in septemer ...maybe late septemer. It all depends on when i get my spare heatsink from the states. I orderd it over a month ago and standard shipping. Hope it arives by next week then can start to look for a card.

I did make extra parts for the heatsink to make it bigger. Just some parts form old Al. heatsinks. And am gone use thermal glue to bond them to the existing heatsink. Well it worked on a old compaq laptop.

And as mharidas said the problem is the heat and lack of cooling. All the AW notebooks have heatsinks tha cover the all the parts on the card.


Well we just need to hope that the next attempts will have more success.


Strange is that laptopmonkey on the UK side is bone dry of the 6970 cards only place i can find them on sale is the US.

Dell opend a big store here + a official service center so might have luck ordering the card from them.

 

Thats a good time to expect info about when the HD 7000Ms are reaching clevo.

 

Can't be combined an AW or Clevo 6970 (6990) heatsink plate with the original G73JH heatpipes and the rest?

 

Guys, I think you simply have to accept that this machine isn't upgradable GPU-wise...
It's not a heat issue, and the there's no need for a custom heatsink. The heatsink of the JH fits and works very well (provided you do all the necessary modifications which I described somewhere on this forum).

The JW isn't locked to Nvidia cards... it is locked to the GTX 460m from Asus. Otherwise the 470m would've worked. Actually it was the 470m which gave an error at POST, not the 6970m, the AMD card was technically compatible. Windows booted, but there was no picture... this indicates that the pins are used differently than required by MXM 3.0.

Also when put into the JH, the card can't properly use the stock clocks, that's another sign that there's something odd going on hardware-wise. The communication between the card and the mobo doesn't seem to work as it is supposed to.

@micman: Did you ever disassemble the machine? It's a PITA to experiment with a G73... cables everywhere and the card is on the back of the mobo.
Usually a notebook won't POST if any important cables aren't plugged in, so you'll have a hard time to put everything in working order without assembling the machine... it might be possible somehow, but a proper reassembly will be faster and safer for the hardware. It's to easy to rip a cable or break a connector when all the parts are connected but hanging around loose.


I won't say don't to anyone "don't do it" if he/she really wants to give it a try, but don't expect to be successful.
Cards can be bought on ebay or MXM-upgrade (you'll neeed to contact them and tell them that you know about the risk involved and understand that you won't have any warranty on the card)

In case anyone tries it again... a little advice: Make sure you modded the heatsink correctly. If done properly it fits very well. Don't worry if some parts aren't covered properly. As long as the die makes proper contact it's fine. The VRAM doesn't get that hot at all, nor do the coils.

 

This is already ruled out completely. MSI's HD 5870s work in the G73JH just fine. People have reported that in this forum. MSI onwers have also upgraded to HD 6970Ms. Those are all MXM 3.0b standard cards on those MSIs.

G73JH onwers are lucky they have no BIOS locks to one particular card/device ID if thats what was encountered with the JW/470M GTX.

In this thread read I thought I read tijo or someone got it to boot and run benchmarks before it went dead?

You change even one pin for the MXM 3.0 configuration on the card and it wont post let alone boot into windows. They are arranged to the spec. So thats not an issue. The only pins that can be rearranged are the Power pins, but then again the number of pins are constant, you have to use all of them to power the card regardless which combination you choose to work with (hence redundant in trying to make your PCB different). The rest of the pins cant be altered if it has to be MXM 3.0 spec. MSI card works in the JH which just shows you everything is to the spec.

About cooling. The inductors are getting hot even on the ASUS HD 5870 mobility, you are underestimating the heat generated by these components. They are the charge storage and release components for the capacitors further long the VRM circuitry. The inductors designed for higher Amp loads when the phases are less compared to a desktop GFX board calls for even better cooling for those components.

One can say the current ASUS implementation is already taking a lot of life out of the cards because they don't cool all the components well enough.

With a good custom cooling in place and all will be fine provided you don't have an overclocked XM edition CPU in the system already. Then you need to get a higher watt adapter and mod it to work with G73. And for GPU overclocking headroom slightly more wattage.

The AW heatsink is the best candidate for this, I was going to use that one. Specifically the left hand side heat sink, as it differs from the right hand side one which has a curve to the heat pipe's path.

You have to discard the heat pipe of the AW and combined the JH's heat pipe and fin assembly using a gas welder.

Just be careful, get someone who is experienced with gas welding, you don't want to drain the liquid in the heat pipes by puncturing it.

As you can see its not easy work which is why I ask my self is it worth doing all this since I am not getting that much of a jump in performance for the money I spend in total. A 239 USD desktop HD 6950 is just simply faster and we cant even get that performance out of this 500 USD MXM card.

 

Gas welder is overkill, just use a hot air gun... the heatpipes are simply soldered to the heatsink. You can easily disassemble it, and soldering the other pipes to it will work as well.

 

The interesting thing is, that the "invalid MXM-structure found" error only appeared when I put the 470m in the JW, there wasn't any error when I put the 6970m in the JW, it booted but no picture. Windows loaded and everything (you could hear the sound) but the screen stayed black. (And yes, all cable were perfectly connected, card was plugged in properly etc... I checked it several times).

You're 100% sure about this? I don't have access to the MXM standard, but I know that there are OEM reserved pins which don't get used by MXM compliant cards. I guess this could cause issues as well. Do you have more details or access to those documents?

 

For quick test a solder work will do, better than having no cooling on the VRMs at all.

The reason why a Gas copper weld is strongly recommended is to ensure best possible heat transfer to the heat pipes. Led based solder is a poor heat conductor compared to Copper or even a copper alloy.

If you look at the Clevo and other higher end heat sinks, they have the heat pipes copper welded/blended to the all-copper block that makes contact with the GPU surface.

If the contacts are copper welded, you temps will be very good on load even when overclocked.

Lead thermal conductivity: 34 W·m−1·K−1
Pure Copper thermal conductivity : 400 W·m−1·K−1

Copper alloys maybe anywhere between: 280 -350 W·m−1·K−1 (depending on the other metal used to make the alloy)

 

Yes, of course it's great when you have them copper welded... but I know that the Alienware heatsink is soldered on with lead free solder, at least in the last gen models, but I don't think it changed.

I know Clevo uses copper sheets for the heatsinks, but never realised that they use a copper alloy for mounting the heatpipes... really? Impressive.

 

Not sure if its not already on the net somewhere but I have had gone through some of the MXM 3.0 and MXM 3.0b SNR, thermal hystersis case studies that add-in-board partners sometimes release to Universities for research references and citation. These studies have appendix pages that show pin layout and functions. Shall inquire if I am allowed to post those for public consumption.

The reserve pins are a matter for add-on functionality like an extra unit to control the BIOS or say voltage from windows using a GUI or anything exotic of that sort for more robust overclocking like we find on the desktop cards. Most don't use it (i think no one does for MXM, for obvious reasons), or even something like adding a TV tuner logic should you have the space on your PCB like a broad PCB like the ASUS, maybe broader, you could use these pins for supporting those extra logics. But it by no means prevents a standard MXM 3.0b from working in that slot.

Its also expensive to keep changing the MXM standard to customize it to your boards and product's requirements compared to sticking to the standard MXM 3.0b. That's way the companies can just make the PCBs and drop in the chip they want. Some makers go cheap on the no: of phases and VRMs to reduce cost and have a PCB that is not standard but the connector is still MXM 3.0b and it works just like the reference cards.

ASUS has done that for the G73JHs. I am not saying this as speculation I am more than certain of this. They are MXM 3.0b as far as functionality is concerned. I cant see what ASUS will use the OEM pins for, they probably don't use them either way.

We use libraries to choose a pre-made layouts and then make slight changes say for a 5870M board and the 6970M board but a good chunk of it remains untouched. Save us money and time and ensures it works out of the box. The working pins will be identical for both cards in this case. Just the electronic components used and maybe light changes on the layout to accommodate new components (eg: VRM improvements, RAM chip density)

The recent move from ASUS with the 560M GTX being embedded on the board be really down to them being miffed at RMAs due to customers fiddling with the MXM cards? I dont know, or maybe its just market greed, they want users to buy new systems as the card is not up-gradable. But this sort of thing is costly. They spent more time to have that card on the mobo. Sometimes the design decision to be more tightly packed for sleeker looks calls for such changes.


Now the BIOS in the motherboard can interfere a lot with how you get all of the functionality working. Fans not slowing down, always at high speed, 2d and 3d clocks not switching properly etc. But the card will work if there are no nasty locks/checks by the BIOS. I guess if the fans are high all the time its a small price to pay. Its not good though if its low all the time then we need to splice it and connect it to a 5V source on the board to run it at full speed all times.


Definitely we can not expect its all smooth sailing, but card failures here in this case are not due to being out of spec. Its down to other factors, mostly insufficient cooling.

There is a reason why vendors lock things out. They are indirectly protecting the buyers. There are many cases of shops swapping in 3rd party white box cards into the systems and taking out their branded cards to be sold on the open market at a premium.

The 6970M in the JW case is interesting. So the BIOS checks in the JW are not entirely thorough, maybe its modifiable, but that's not an area I can handle. I am only into VLSI, pin layouts and fabrication.

Firmware experts at bios-mod.com could help.

 

Yeah its brilliant stuff. Wish all makers werent cheap on their cooling solutions. I dont mind paying more for such heatsinks. They could even market it as such and charge maybe 20-30 bucks more. Save us the time of modding things. Good overclocks as well.

I think no one really uses pure copper on heat sinks, even if they do claim so it probably is not really. There is a little bit of some other metal to prevent oxidization of the copper. That ugly black brown stuff we see on old stagnant piece of pure copper.

They could also use lacquering on the pure copper but this can easily erode due to the heat its being subjected to.

So yeah its nearly as good as pure copper but not really "pure" copper.

But a pure copper weld is easier than alloy based as the alloy might need more heat and its best to use minimum heat with these heat pipes.

 

Silver solder would work nicely as well.

 

Yes definitely, just that for pure silver the cost is too high.

Silver alloys are also costly.

 

The real answer here is, stop supporting Asus. Go with other brands. Tell Asus this behavior is unacceptable and that $1,500 laptops should be upgradeable whenever possible.

 

I don't think other laptops allow for much upgradability either. You may consider switching from laptop to PC in that case, where Asus actually has some of the leading hardware as well.

 

well you have sager, MSI, Alienware,...

you guys throwing ideas at each other like this give me hope that I could upgrade my lappy's GPU

 

I got mine for a good deal back then as a refurbished model. There was nothing like it on the market hardware wise for that price (860USD), back then it was a steal.

But now that I have the laptop I know for sure we can upgrade the GPU, but unforuntaley there is work to be done with the heat sink. Not too hard but not easy like the other systems either.

If I was in the market for a laptop now, I would get the M17x r2 refurb. I might still get one but right now budget is tight

Exactly why 500 USD for a MXM card based on the desktop 6850 or the 6870 chip is not worth it for me at-least. Maybe with the 7000Ms depending on how much horsepower they are going to pack in it to get that great 65 watt TDP. If its anything like a 6970 desktop chip with 1536 shaders then am game.

 

Hello mates,
I got i real issue with my heatpipe recently i got Acer 5745G (i7 720q, GT330M) for home use and little gaming for over year ago and goes fine with me. But all of sudden i'm facing lots of lags so i decided to open up and investigate so i found out that cpu heatpipe has small puncture near cpu end. Copper like heatpipe looks empty and some kind of white powderish thing dried up near puncture.. (i suppose that there have been some sort of liquid inside it) I think that causes pretty much failure for CPU cooling system so laptop lags when gaming. Please advise me to fix it i've been googled a while and found this forum seems a only forum saying heatpipe and stuff. Any help is appreciated

Thanks,

 

Hey guys do not take this the wrong way but GAME OVER MAN! GAME OVER!

@ mharidas "If I was in the market for a laptop now, I would get the M17x r2 refurb."

Why m17x r2 refurb when you can get a m17x r3 refurb or m18x refurb? Maybe it is the RGB screen?

 

Sorry to hear that, but that definitely is a blown heatpipe, the liquid is long gone. And what remains is the white powder which is the Sintered inside surface walling of the heat pipe. Its a heat dissipation barrier material.

I will look for the heatsink on Asian markets if ebay is a no-go. If I find anything I will let you know asap.

There are other ways to add your own heatpipe customized to shape but I first need to see how the original heatpipes are arranged on your model

 

Your point is well taken, As I have said in m18x section of the forums, I have already bought a m18x from the dell outlet store with labor day 20% off coupon. Its with Dual 6970Ms, 2720QM, 4GB RAM, 320GB HDD, FHD 1080p screen, black finish for 1463USD. Its a steal. I have 8GB of extra ram so I can add that to get 12Gigs for my Premier Pro needs

No its was not about the RGB screen as I have no personal experience of that type of screen, so I am unable to fathom the greatness people talk about when it comes to RGB screens. It was just that I wanted a dual card laptop. I didn't actually like the idea of a 17" inch 16:10 screen, I like the wider 16:9.

18'4" screen was the main attraction plus the generous cooling solutions already present in the m18x model. When I first looked for some m18xs they werent up on the outlet store.... Well what can I say, labor day comes along and just a few days prior to that I find the m18xs are up by the truck loads!

I will put one of them 6970Ms into my G73JH to prove it works, but first I need to mod my PSU and heatsink. Once that's done I will post what results.

 

Fixing it on your own will cost you more than buying the actual heatsink from an online store.

Here is a link I found for your laptop's heatsink.

Click here


And for detailed illustrations on how to take apart the laptop:

Click here for illustrations

 

wow dual 6970M for $1500? what madness is this @.@

 

Yes with the 20% off coupon for labor day of course The listed price was 1829 USD

 

Thank you for opting to try out one of your 6970m cards on a g73jh. I look forward to the results. The posting about giving up and just getting a better laptop is sound, however some of us (like myself) like to push what we have to the max. For instance, I like android phones, and have had many and have pushed them to the max. Had fun too. Then I got the dual core g2x with invidia processor upon release of that phone. There was nothing to do to that phone, as it was already tricked out. A month later, I got bored and sold it. I thought about selling my laptop and getting something better but $700 for my laptop is about $1000 short of a good m17x, and I'm just a cook. However, $400-$700 for a compatible 6970m is feasible. Plus, I enjoy the mod work. I appreciate you, and all the others who strive to see just what this laptop can do.
Thank you.

 

Hey guys!

I am about to pick up a G73jh tonight and I am interested in this upgrade.

So from what I am gathering so far, the 6970m dies mysteriously after its been in the g73 for a bit?

 

I agree. I LOVE modding my stuff. I have an HTC Incredible that I have had since release date. I Rooted it as soon as the timing glitch was found (pulling out the sd card and putting back in) and I'm running CM7. The laptop I am more careful with but have the 920XM that I put in and I just purchased a Scorpio Black 500GB from Amazon today.

 

Thanks man that Canadian online store looks good now gotta seek some friends from States.

 

So, which card does mxmupgrade carry? I know that the card that was tried in this forum is blue, which I have seen to be the msi one. After a lot of searching, I have found two major versions of this card- blue for msi, black (ish) for dell (not necessarily alienware, but a dell precision laptop). On the mxmupgrade page, they show the precision laptop version in the pic where you order it, but on all the 6970 success stories and guides on their site it shows the blue card. From what I gather from this thread, the blue card failed eventually. Their IS a difference, at least in model numbers. So with that, I was thinking that maybe the precision version might fare better (I hope). Also, mid 2011 imac comes with yet another version. Same specs, but slightly different size. It's shorter. I know it's an imac, but to my knowledge you can use the ram, hdd, dvd, processor, etc from an imac on a pc. It is still an mxm 3 type b card. So, why not? I'm getting closer to having the funds to get a big upgrade for my laptop soon. I would like to have a new card. If not, I guess I'll just have to settle for a 920xm *SIGH*
lol