A little lesson on "Hyper Memory" and the W3v....

OK, after getting a few indepth questions about this today, I figured I'd write everything down so I have a record here.

Well, based on the newest bios…. V0502A (06/07/2005)
http://dlsvr01.asus.com/pub/ASUS/nb/W3V/W3V0502A.zip

You can also read a little bit more about HyperMemory here: http://www.ati.com/products/hypermemory.html
http://www.ati.com/companyinfo/press/2004/4783.html


I swapped out some RAM in my system and found the following results:


I show 192mb of graphics memory with 1 x 512mb installed.
(64mb dedicated and 128mb shared)

I show 320mb of graphics memory with 2 x 512mb (1gb) installed.
(64mb dedicated and 256mb shared)

I show 576mb of graphics memory with 1 x 512mb + 1 x 1gb (1.5gb) installed.
(64mb dedicated and 512mb shared)

I show 576mb of graphics memory with 2 x 1gb (2gb) installed.
(64mb dedicated and 512mb shared)


Now, from my experience, this is helping quite a bit in programs like AutoCAD Arch Desktop; 3Ds MAX; Photoshop, Maya, etc... basically, as I've said before... All of those graphics professionals who are told time and time again that they need a 256mb or more graphics card for these types of programs ONLY need it because all of the real time rendering is basically stored in the VRAM...... "out of memory" errors occur and hence the 256mb standard. Looking for a laptop w/ 256mb of VRAM is almost impossible and when you find one, you're going to be lugging around a big P4 or a64 based system with a 17" screen. With HyperMemory, they can basically get a system that fits your needs in ACTUAL GPU power, with a screen, weight, design that better fits your lifestyle.

ATI wants to pin this as the more affordable way to get that same performance for graphics programs... which it is. A 256mb card, desktop or laptop is expensive and it's really not needed for this situation. I'd like to look at it as freeing a graphics professional like myself up to use my W3 with the programs I use without any problems.

We can't find any improvement in terms of 3D Mark scores, but we weren't expecting to.... however ATI does say that it's improving realtime graphics across the board.

I hope you enjoyed that and feel free to try it with your own system......

Thanks,
Justin
PROPortable
800-474-2296
www.proportable.com
[email protected]

 

Good info, J-man. It makes me even more sure of my decision on the z70v. I'll be doing some moderate-to-heavy graphics and animation, especially RoboDemo, Maya and Flash. If your W3 can handle all of that, I know my z70v will, too.

Thanks!

Asus Z70v | Pentium M 1.6GHz Sonoma | 15.4" WSXGA+ | 1 GB PC4200 | 40 GB 5400 RPM | 8X DVDRW DL | ATI X600 PCIe | Intel Pro 2915 | Linksys USB BT100

 

Yeah... well convincing graphics professionals I know that a 2.0ghz P-M is equal to about a 3.6ghz P-4 took almost a year to BASH into their skulls....

Now trying to tell them that 576mb of "hypermemory", 64mb which is dedicated is BETTER for the things that they do in terms of battery life, pocket book, etc than a DEDICATED 256mb card is going to take just as long.

I can't imagine needing the other 512mb for even my heavy rendering, but at the same time, with 2gb of system memory, needing more than a dedicated 1.5gb for even things like 3Ds MAX and Maya is almost ridiculous even for the the most advanced user. Figure on having 576mb dedicated to just your realtime renderings....... then if you figure XP Pro is say using 256mb just for itself... realistically that means that you have 1.25gb dedicated to running the application and the actual file it's working with.....

Find me someone in that position who needs more than that and I'll find you a liar [ ]

Thanks,
Justin
PROPortable
800-474-2296
www.proportable.com
[email protected]

 

One thing to keep in mind is the dedicated memory might run faster than the system RAM. On average, they uses DDR3 and have better timing.



Laptop: Asus Z71V
* Intel® Pentium® M 750 - 1.86GHz
* 2GB DDR2-533 Corsair
* Hitachi Travelstar 60GB 7200 RPM w/ 8MB Buffer
FAQ Most asked about laptops: http://notebookforums.com/showthread.php?t=61505
Asus Z71V Unofficial Support Thread: http://notebookforums.com/showthread.php?t=72349

 

right, but for a lot of 3d rendering.... that's not really as important. The biggest issue in something like 3ds max is basically just running out of memory.. people *think* it means they need more ram in their system, so they think they need 2gb of system ram.... well they really don't because that's not helping in that instance..

it's not BETTER than a 256mb graphics card... but for graphic use like we're talking, I think that hyper memory on top of a 64mb x600 is MORE helpful than 128mb nvidia 6600..... real time rendering is going to be better on the nvidia w/ open gl... but the extra available memory gives the ati another advantage.... for certain things, it's more beneficial. I don't know if I'd prefet that on a big desktop workstation... but on a laptop, i'd rather use my w3 instead of having to lug around a z71v or something.

Again, we're not talking about gaming, but something that is just as important to the type of customers we get... graphics professionals.

Thanks,
Justin
PROPortable
800-474-2296
www.proportable.com
[email protected]

 

Yeah, just like a car turbocharger, a 'turbo' RAM is always going to

have a lag time, besides Win XP needs approx. 512 RAM to run

smoothly.











---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1.86 Pentium-M===2gbDDR2 PC-4200===NVidia 6600go 128mb===60gb/7200 Hitachi HDD
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I know things that could bore people to death !!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

right, that's sort of how it works...... it's a little like turbo lag... but it's there.... better than not... a little more efficent use of it... cheaper... etc.. A lot like putting a turbo on an egine to get more power.... cheaper, more efficent...

I'd rather be able to use more of this system memory that most of the time goes unused.... Same thing about huge graphics cards... if you're not gaming the newest games, you've got a lot of memory that would be sitting there doing nothing most of the time.

Thanks,
Justin
PROPortable
800-474-2296
www.proportable.com
[email protected]

 

I agree the faster bandwidth of the PCI Express makes 'stealing' memory a very practical and cost effective alternative to larger graphics card memory in mobile computers. This is not a new idea; it’s just that the performance gain say 5 years ago when using the AGP interface and slower system RAM was not worth it.

I would just like to point out that this method is not used exclusively by ATI. ATI has ‘hypermemory’ while NVIDIA has ‘turbocache’, in reality they are different implementations of the same (old) idea. As Justin said these solutions are not as good as the traditional graphics card RAM, which is faster and located closer to the GPU, but the fact you can get these solutions in smaller form factors make them very tempting.

As others have said before, the functionality to modify the amount of RAM set aside for graphics processing is still sorely missed. Perhaps if Asus does not entirely trust users, they could build in minimum and maximum settings for different amounts of RAM. I can understand that they don’t want to be dealing with support cases where a user has set aside 95% of RAM for graphical processing to get a better 2D picture.[ ]

 

Hey Justin, what kind of RAM do you recommend for the W3V. I'm looking at add a 512 stick. Nothing too expensive, but nothing crap either.

On W3V - sweet

 

We use and love corsair.... it works, this DDR2 has been used in our systems since we started using DDR2 on when Sonoma came out... They don't have XMS2 out yet, so their regular old DDR2 is good and I don't think I'd call it expensive.

Thanks,
Justin
PROPortable
800-474-2296
www.proportable.com
[email protected]

 

I don't think you'd want to set even more to be available... and it's not using that all the time either.... those numbers are "available" amounts.... if the graphics are needing it, it'll steal as much as.....

Setting that level even higher is almost crazy because if you need that much ram for the graphics, what is the system needing.... most likely more than that....

So it works....... it's going to help for some things in games, but it's really meant for graphics programs....... it's better than having all that sytem ram just sitting there not doing anything.... you're getting a little more for your money and making more efficient use of what you've got.

Thanks,
Justin
PROPortable
800-474-2296
www.proportable.com
[email protected]

 

do you know if the omega drivers are compatible with hypermemory? or do i have to use the drivers from the ATI website?

 

The current ones aren't I don't think..... when the ones based on the 5.6 cats come out, it's supposed to be.

Thanks,
Justin
PROPortable
800-474-2296
www.proportable.com
[email protected]

 

I just had to add a point to this discussion which I think is fairly relevant with respect to HyperMemory and Dual-Channel memory configurations.

While 3DMark may not show a performance increase directly, I would suggest that a number of application will show significant improvements with HyperMemory and dual-channel enabled RAM. The mobile X600 is going to be primarily memory-bandwidth limited if an application needs to use a lot of video RAM, and therefore it seems to make sense to equip your [insert Asus laptop equiped with HyperMemory & Sonoma here i.e. W3V] with two 512MB chips as opposed to 1 * 1GB chip, as dual channel will significantly improve available bandwidth for your video processor.

The performance increase shouldn't be just a matter of increasing available video RAM to the program. Of course, I haven't benchmarked this specifically yet but I do think the benefit of having HyperMemory will be more obvious this way.

 

That is true as well and a good point. Unfortunately, I've yet to be able to benchmark this in a reference manner like some of the benchmark software can. But I could physically tell a time difference while rendering the same object in something like 3ds max...... not exactly something that'd stand up as a benchmark, but good enough for me to see that there is a difference. I think the next version of 3d mark may take this stuff into account and find a good was to physically benchmark it though.

 

where did you get those numbers from? when I click my adaptor type in the x600 properties I only see 64 mb.

 

You'll see it under the ATI control panel in your display settings. Your "adapter" is your dedicated gpu and that is only 64mb. Even out of the box, what I stated as the amount for 512mb of system ram, which I think is 192mb (64 + 128) is what should be there.

 

I only see the 64mb under adaptor in the ati control panel, where can you see and/or adjust the hyper-memory? Thanks

 

call me stupid but I cant find it. SOrry for being a newb. I right click on my ati icon and go to setting -> ATI Display Settings -> Options -> Details

I only see 64mb on the bottom where it says memory upgrades none

 

Also does updating the bios do anything? I was able to download the bios update from that link you gave, but I went to the asus site and none of the downloading features were working. Is there any special way u need to update the bios?

 

Since this is again a topic of discussion, I thought I'd bring it to the front page again and just repost my findings from earlier...... Enjoy!

OK, after getting a few indepth questions about this today, I figured I'd write everything down so I have a record here.

Well, based on the newest bios…. V0502A (06/07/2005)
http://dlsvr01.asus.com/pub/ASUS/nb/W3V/W3V0502A.zip

You can also read a little bit more about HyperMemory here: http://www.ati.com/products/hypermemory.html
http://www.ati.com/companyinfo/press/2004/4783.html


I swapped out some RAM in my system and found the following results:


I show 192mb of graphics memory with 1 x 512mb installed.
(64mb dedicated and 128mb shared)

I show 320mb of graphics memory with 2 x 512mb (1gb) installed.
(64mb dedicated and 256mb shared)

I show 576mb of graphics memory with 1 x 512mb + 1 x 1gb (1.5gb) installed.
(64mb dedicated and 512mb shared)

I show 576mb of graphics memory with 2 x 1gb (2gb) installed.
(64mb dedicated and 512mb shared)


Now, from my experience, this is helping quite a bit in programs like AutoCAD Arch Desktop; 3Ds MAX; Photoshop, Maya, etc... basically, as I've said before... All of those graphics professionals who are told time and time again that they need a 256mb or more graphics card for these types of programs ONLY need it because all of the real time rendering is basically stored in the VRAM...... "out of memory" errors occur and hence the 256mb standard. Looking for a laptop w/ 256mb of VRAM is almost impossible and when you find one, you're going to be lugging around a big P4 or a64 based system with a 17" screen. With HyperMemory, they can basically get a system that fits your needs in ACTUAL GPU power, with a screen, weight, design that better fits your lifestyle.

ATI wants to pin this as the more affordable way to get that same performance for graphics programs... which it is. A 256mb card, desktop or laptop is expensive and it's really not needed for this situation. I'd like to look at it as freeing a graphics professional like myself up to use my W3 with the programs I use without any problems.

We can't find any improvement in terms of 3D Mark scores, but we weren't expecting to.... however ATI does say that it's improving realtime graphics across the board.

I hope you enjoyed that and feel free to try it with your own system......

 

Justin, again how did you get those readings? Can you see them in bios or do u need a specific program? Are these readings limited to the W3V or the Z70V which shares the same card? Thanks!

 

Those readings were from my W3, I can't comment on the Z70v (even though they should be identical), because I'm not using a Z70v on a fulltime basis and didn't even check it out on one.

Those numbers are in the ATI settings..... under advanced in the display settings.

 

I'll just like to add a few words to this discussion. Firstly, although they may seem the same on the outside, the nVidia Turbocache system is really different from ATi's Hypermemory system. There is no clear-cut answer to which one is better, but each excels in different catorgories. There is a good comparsion of their architecture and benchmarks here: http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2413&p=2

Basically, What Justin is saying is only half true for the ATi systems. Hypermemory does not actually increase your VRAM, but instead offers a secondary fast cache for it whereas Turbocache does, in fact, effectively increases your VRAM. An X600 with 64MB Dedicated and 128MB shared is NOT equilivant to a video card with 192MB of (slower) dedicated VRAM.

Basically, with the ATi system, objects MUST BE LOADED into the dedicated memory before they can be operated on. The nVidia system, on the other hand, can operate on objects only loaded into the extended memory.

A good analogy is this: Picture yourself writing a long research paper, and you have a small desk that is completely filled with open books.
-On a normal graphics card, if you need to look up more information in more books, you must free up some room on your desk to place the new book by taking off an old book, then get into your car, drive down to the library, check out the new book, return the old one, and drive back.
-On a graphics card with Hypermemory, a bookshelf is placed behind your desk. All the books you need from the library are checked out and placed on the bookshelf. However your deskspace has not changed. If you need a new book, you still have to free up some room, take your old book and put it back into the bookself, grab the new one, and open it up.
-On a graphics card with Turbocache, a large desk is placed to the right of you two feet away. All the books you ever need are on there and opened. If you need information from one of those books, you only need to look over and read it. You can still type your research paper with one hand while doing this.

From this, you can see that each solution has its advantages and disadvantages. With hypermemory, you still have to stop what you're doing and spin around to grab the new book to put on your desk, where as with Turbocache, you can immediately start working with the new book, but your typing rate will be reduced (slower ram).

 

Makken,

I don't think I ever said it "added to the vram". There are certain applications that want to cache all of the real time 3d data onto only VRAM. This solution does in a way trick the system into using that system ram in that just that way. The thing is, for thos situations, the speed isn't all that important, although I will go as far to say that with drr2 533 the bandwidth is open quite a bit more and the system ram isn't like crawling compared to the video ram.

Nvidia's solution is a bit different but can help in much the same way. For graphics intense applications, like maya or 3ds max (as I keep going back to) ...... some of what they store in the vram really doesn't need to be there and since you can't get a 5 pound system with 256mb + of video ram...... and if you could it would be very expensive, run very hot and give you horrible battery life as it would be connected to an x800 or 6800 gpu.....

For what I use it for and what a lot of our customers use it for..... it's a good solution for things like 3ds max...... but there is a reason neither solution helps in gaming.

 

Justin,
from your post, I gathered that you were trying to say an X600 64MB Hyper'd to 256MB is equilivant to a 256MB dedicated card.

If that was not your intent, then i'm sorry that I misread you. My post was a meant to be taken as a clearification on that common misconception about hypermemory.

 

No no... not in the slightest...... first, whatever I posted today was a repost of mine from months ago I think...... It's not the same, but what I'm saying is that for graphics professionals, they'll never know the difference becasue the reason they need the extra ram is just because these programs want to store everything in the video ram..... they get a 256mb monster card because a 64mb will just produce "out of memory" errors no matter how much system ram you have....... these programs don't require the added performance of a better gpu or even the speed of the dedicated memory...... it just needs a place to store some of the render.... and is used much like a cache.

Graphics professionals don't need this monster computer... I mean some people look at even the W2 and say it's not good enough for them and none of those people would ever touch a game... ever...... they don't realize that the programs like 3ds max, maya and others as far as gpu power, could run on a geforce4 4200 with ease........ the memory that some of the renderings produce though would slow down that card pretty quick, but it's the memory and not the gpu thats really being taxed.

As long as we're on the same page.......... it's cool... I just want everyone to understand what it's good for.

 

Is this reading what you were refering to?

I have 128 with 2x512 ram. Is there a way to change that? You mentioned you had read 320mb at with that amount of ram...

 

Yes, that's correct. What bios are you using? Remember, this post was from a month and a half ago.... try to get the bios I had at the time because I don't think I'd updated since then and perhaps something changed (I hope not).... but just incase.

 

the latest BIOS was released 5/24/05 AFAIK. I have 1.5GB installed and only see 256MB under the adapter settings.

which version of catalyst were you using?

 

I don't have mine here at the moment, I'll try to grab screen shots this weekend. When I tested it, I want to say it was the stock 5.4's..... I remember afterwards updating to the omega drivers based on the 5.6's...... and never check out those options again.

Those numbers were based on the stock drivers with the updated bios that enabled hypermemory.

 

Scratch that last question. I just updated my BIOS. I only see 128MB as my memory size and I have 2 GB. I have the latest Omega Drivers so I don't know i that has something to do with it. But if I can increase my memory size in any way it would be great. Here is my screenshot.

Edit: Ok I now understand that the omega drivers don't really allow for the hypermemory about 128mb or something like that. Now my question is.. if I wanted to uninstall my omega drivers to study the performance of hypermemory with the stock drivers, how would I reinstall the stock ones? DO I have to reinstall something after uninstalling the Omega? I guess what I am trying to ask is how do I get back to the stock drivers?

Thanks

 

I think you can just uninstall the omega's and reinstall the drivers off the drivers disc. I'm going to have to take a look into this over the weekend. I still don't have my W3 on me and others have told me that the Omega's limited the hypermemory to an exrta 64mb for sure.

 

Ok.. I rolled back the Omega drivers and reinstalled the drivers that came stock on my W3V. There is still no change in the memory size. It remains at 128MB. At the same time however, I don't have the extra tabs that are on the other screenshot that scottschaffter has. Mine only has general, adapter, monitor, troubleshot, and color management. Perhaps I need to update them to a newer catalyst version? Does ATI have any documentation on the Hypermemory feature with details as to what is needed to support it? All I have been able to find is a press release and the general overview they have about it on their website

I guess I'll be trying out some other drivers, and I will let you know what I get. If I have time I'll run some benchmarks on them too. I kinda want to get this hypermemory thing working so I can see if it makes much of a difference.

Thanks for the help.

 

Everything from my original post is basically all there is on hypermemory. If you don't have anymore tabs, then you didn't install something. When I finally get a chance to get to my W3 this weekend, I'll take some screen shots with various memory installed.

 

Well the stock drivers were reinstalled. I don't know why the tabs went missing. In the end though, the only other drivers that I tried that would work with my configuration were the omegas. I'll just wait for you to figure things out on your side so that maybe it will help me on mine.

Thanks

 

I am using CAT 5.7 omegas in my w3v and ati control panel shows 256 meg vid memory. I have 2x 512 DDR2 installed.

 

Wow. That kinda makes me mad. Would you be able to post a screenshot. I have 2x1GB right now and I only show 128Mb with Cat 5.7 omegas..

Thanks

 

i have 2x512mb and my vid card shows 320mb of memory. How do we check if we are running dual channel>

 

I am running the newer bios that just realease 2.06 i believe for the Z70V... I have the origional stock drivers from asus. Would the x600 perform and dif on the w3v? and why? just bios? would omega drivers make any dif? I had tried them but they seriously decreased fps on counter strike... maybe I had changed some of the settings incorrectly dunno... any ideas why I only show 128mb? It would be interesting to see if I can get it up... also is this change in hypermemory controlable or is it just 128 or 320 or 256 etc... can you choose in theory to reduce the amount of ram it may occupy... ? Does it also only begin to use this amount of alloted memory when it is needed or does it reserve it all from the ram and thus make it unusable for other system functions? Any advice would be great...

 

wow, go away for a few days and a lot pops up

1) for the guy missing tabs: you need to have ATi control panel installed. It is a seperate install from the drivers, but If you downloaded drivers from the ATi page ( www.ati.com), they package either Catalyst Control Center (slow POS IMO), or Catalyst control panel (what you want) with their drivers.

2) Hypermemory is more drivers based than hardware, so different drivers (omega, ati, asus oem) will most likely reserve different amounts of memory for the video card. Unless you're working with ungodly sized textures, I highly doubt you will need more than 128MB; although I have never truly rendered a full blown 3d scene, I've mostly only done simple objects and such.

 

wouldnt higher mb increase game performance aswell? so what is the conclusion then ... do omega cat 5.7 release more ram for hypermemory? There seems to be inconsitant impressions...

 

here you go screenshot attached.

 

Thank you. By looking at that I realized something.. Let me see if I can get different results on my W3V.

 

I just read the review on hypermemory at the beginning of this thread. Does this mean that having a 128mb card of ATI hypermemory is better than having a 256mb dedicated card of video memory?

 

NO.

As fast as PCI-E is, you're still limited to about 6.4gb/sec transfer rates over it. This is a pretty hefty bandwidth bottleneck. A 256MB dedicated card will not have this problem. (of course it all depends on the core.)

 

Ok, it might not be better than a dedicated 256MB card, but is 128MB of hypermemory better than just a regular 128MB video card? (ex: 128MB of ATI Xpress 200M is better than Nvidia GeForce Go 6600)

 

I think the consensus is that hypermemory affects gamplay very little. It probably isnt going to make your games run any faster or smoother. However, it helps with photo and movie editing where people need lots of memory when they rendor or deal with large pictures.

 

the ATi Xpress 200M can have 100GB of memory for all I care, and it still won't perform anywhere near as good as the Go6600

The two main specs that will determine how well a given video card performs in games are
1) Number of Pixel and Vertex pipelines
2) Core and Memory clock

 

I know this took a while, but I when I finally found time to take the pictures, I think I forgot about it.

Scroll to the bottom of the page.... I'll add more about what Hypermemory actually helps (similiar to what I have in these threads) but for now, here is the photographic evidence some of you wanted so you could reproduce what I mentioned...

http://www.proportable.com/w3vdemo.html