A8JS obsolete w/ DirectX 10?

Hi guys, my current laptop's LCD (inspiron 8500) has gone kaput so now I'm in the market for a new laptop. I have been highly tempted by the A8JS as it fulfills my need for a small but powerful laptop. However, DirectX 10 is coming out with Vista, and no doubt games after that will start requring DX 10 as well. But since the Nvidia Go7700 can't support DX 10, would it be better for me to wait until a DX 10 compatible graphics card are available for midrange laptops? (The sub-question here is how long would it take games to start requiring DirectX 10?)

This website and forum has been a tremendous help in helping me choose a new laptop, and thank you for all your help. Viva la community!

 

ummm...in a very short, simple explanation, your go7700 will simulate dx10, so dx10-required stuff will work.

 

How many months are you planning to wait?

 

That's right, it is going to be a while before we start seeing some DX10 mid range GPU's for laptops.

As you already know Nvidia has released the 8800GTX and GTS which support DX10, and that technology cannot be utilized until games take advantages of it. However, the performance of the 8800GTX and it's technology is far superior to the previous generation.

If Vista gets released Q1 of 2007 without delays, we may be expecting games to support DX10 shortly after, however laptop technology moves on a slightly different pace. Roughly you can be waiting a little as 2 months - 6 months for laptops to have what your looking for. I would assume closer to 4 months be about roughly the right time, since Santa Rosa is the next platform.

Another thing about purchasing laptops is if you have time to wait, then wait, but if you really need one now, then get one now, and don't look back. (to a certain degree, and apply your own subjectivity)

 

Last I'd heard was that DX10 wouldn't be 100% ready for the Vista rollout, and may not be fully implemented until the the first service pack is released.

Considering the development timeline for current games (at around 2-3 years), you're not going to be seeing many DX10 games for a while yet. Even then, most should also run under DX9 SM3.0... they just won't be as pretty.

 

I heard the same thing -DX10 won't be ready when Vista ships. Some games can be made DX10 compatible with a software patch, but there's no telling how long it will take developers to get those patches out. The A8Js will still run DX10 games -it just won't be able to take advantage of DX10's advanced pixel shading. IMHO there won't be a DX10 mobile GPU in anything less than a 17", 4 kilogram laptop before August of next year...

 

Thanks for your responses guys. Also, if I were to get an a8js, I'd be getting it for only $1480 (US Dollars), in case that affects your advice. And if I use DirectX 9 to simulate DX 10, how big would the difference be?

 

From what I have read, DX10 is supposed to be vastly superior, Based on what others have said, I think it will be 2 years before games fully support DX10, and which point you will start to notice the difference, I would guess 4 years before your computer is "obsolete" for gaming. To me thats a reasonable time for a laptop to last.

 

I got mine for 1499 shipped from btotech.com

I guess you beat me. I still think it was a steal lol I cant imagine what youre going to compare that too.

The first dx10 game should be crysis.

The first games that require dx 10 to run will probably be in years.

The first game that requires a dx 9 card to run just got released its the newest splinter cell.

I estimate the 512 mb 7700 will be unable to play the newest fear level games in about 3 years and only be able to play the civilization level games. But the truth is a 7900 gtx isnt going to be all the much better in 3 years.
You cant really beat that curve thats the way the hardware is marketed.


Im holding out hope that there is an a8j model released with a dx10 card and it can be purchased seperately and put in my machine.

The g1p release as a gaming notebook with 7700 go is encouraging to this hope.... but id say the chance is slim. The a8js has a removable card and I would bet you that the g1p has the same one.

 

If I may ask, where are you buying it at that price?

 

I wouldn't hold out on that. I doubt that the card would be changeable or cost effective for either you or Asus to do this. They are much more likely to just have a newer laptop or even a newer series with a DX10 card, instead of trying to upgrade a model that is a year old. In fact, that goes for most companies.

 

I have a relative who knows a guy

 

As far as I know you can't "simulate" DX10, otherwise everyone would already have released drivers and marketed their current GPUs as DX10 compatible. DX10 is a completely separate driver model from DX9 so the 2 are not compatible. Also, DX10 removes the use of compatibility bits which means it's an all or nothing standard. Either you support the full DX10 standard with appropriate speed or you can't have DX10 support, which means no more half-software implementation like the GMA 950 for DX9.

Also, I'm fairly certain that the current spec of DX10 will be implemented in full when Vista ships. The spec has been defined long ago so I can't see Microsoft not being ready. It's only nVidia is taking their time releasing DX10 drivers for the G80. There will be successive revisions of DX10 though since unlike DX9, GPUs aren't supposed to be overdesigned. Basically, you can design your GPU to have more features than the current version of DX10 offers, but developers won't be able to use it in games until a revision of DX10 comes out to support extra features whereby then that feature will be required. This is an attempt to standardize GPUs, so that ATI and nVidia don't go off on their own tangents, probably to try to prevent a GeForce FX 5800 reoccurrence which exceeded the DX9 spec so much it couldn't run standard DX9 code. That does mean though that there will be more frequent minor revisions of DX10 to add in new features as they are agreed upon and implemented in hardware.

In terms of games, the first DX10 games will be released next year. If you have a DX9 card in Vista, you will not be able to play in DX10 mode. Game developers will basically have to develop 2 versions, one using DX10 code and one using DX9 code and the hardware level you have will determine which will run. The DX9 code is obviously the only version that will run in XP. Games developers probably aren't too happy to have to develop 2 versions every time so I can definitely see most high-end (hardware heavy) games being released in DX10 only by 2008 with the whole industry following in 2009. The benefit of DX10 is not really in new features, since most things can actually be done in DX9.0c with similar quality, but in faster execution of the same tasks, which developers and users appreciate.

 

Actually Microsoft said that it wouldn't be ready -and if you read the posts where people complain about how their current games are not working under the second public beta of Vista it's easy to see why DX10 might be part of a service pack...

Absolutely not true -just like DX9 games can be played on DX7 and DX8 hardware you'll be able to play DX10 games on DX9 GPUs. You won't be able to see all of the "eye candy" but the games will still run. The only exceptions will be games that are written for DX10 only -and you won't see that happen for a couple of years...

 

don't worry. the 7 series will still be alive. it wont be THAT outdated.
7700go will still be fine after dx10. not to worry unless you are using the 6 series.

besides, the 8 series that come out for laptops will be super expensive anyways...so really,you'll probably need to wait an year for affordable dx10 cards. it'll probably start from the 17" notebooks w/ 8800GTS or 8800GTX.

yay for my 100th post!!!

 

You are aware of how the new Windows Driver Display Model (WDDM) is structured aren't you?

First of all here is a quote specifically mentioning that DX10 is not backwards compatible any previous DX version:

http://www.driverheaven.net/articles/dx10/

The reason is a direct result of how DX10 was designed and how WDDM is structured. A graphical representation can be seen in this Microsoft presentation on slide 3.

http://download.microsoft.com/downl...4e74-92a3-088782200fe7/TWPR05007_WinHEC05.ppt

One of DX10s primary advantages is that it's not backwards compatible which allows a lot of baggage to be left behind and adds flexibility. The reason why current games (DX9.0c and earlier) work in Vista is that WDDM provides a separate API for DX9. So essentially Vista contains DX10 and DX9 as 2 separate entities, so DX10's lack of backwards compatibility was overcome with brute force by providing the entire DX9 API as well.

Now the reason why there have been performance reduction of current games in Vista has nothing to do with DX10. That should be pretty obvious since the DX10 API (WGF2.0) isn't even being used in conjunction with current games, they are being run through the DX9 API. That said, Vista's DX9 implementation is different than XP's, because for one, the graphics card drivers have been moved out of Kernal space into User space. This entails reprogramming of existing XP drivers to adapt to the new operating environment. There are also changes in memory management and access priveleges all of which contribute to the poor performance seen in current games running under DX9 in Vista. OpenGL also takes an additional performance hit since it now runs through WGF1.0, basically DX9.0L, instead of having direct access to the GPU, so it's kind of running in emulation mode right now. Newer drivers should currect most of the performance difficulties, but it definitely looks like an attempt by Microsoft to incovenience OpenGL in favour of DX.

I also still believe that DX10 will launch to spec with Vista on time. I don't see why it wouldn't. DX10 has been part of Vista since before Beta 2 and Microsoft was certainly playing up DX10/Vista games at E3 in May.

http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2006/may06/05-09G4WE3LineupPR.mspx

Like I've said before, these games are releasing in DX10 and the DX10 code base will only work in Vista with DX10 hardware. However, most/all games for the next 2 years will with both a DX10 and DX9 code base. You will only by one CD/DVD and install once, and if you are running Vista with DX10 hardware, then you will be able to play using the DX10 code in the DX10 API, but if you were to be using Vista and DX9 hardware or using XP, then you will run the DX9 code using the DX9 API.

 

I have the release vista and it comes with dx10 only, not dx 9.

games are not compatible at all I believe I have to install dx 9 seperately.

dxdiag comes out of the box claiming dx10 is not tested lol.

if there is any dx 10 software available anywhere on the net to test dx 10 please let me know about it im about to end my experiment and get my valuable hard drive space back.

I want to let you know vista is not ready for prime time. Its worth learning about but it has a few basic problems right away. sp1 is when youll worry about it although that wont be that long.

 

That might be a driver issue of the Go 7700. I don't believe nVidia has released their DX10 drivers yet and those DX10 drivers are for the G80 Geforce 8800 only anyways, so Vista shouldn't be claiming DX10 is running. Even Aero Glass runs on DX9.0L not DX10, even if you had a DX10 GPU.

I'm not supporting jumping right into Vista either. Better to let the guinea pigs figure things out first. Still, reports are that the final build of Vista is a lot better than even RC2. They've cleaned up the code so it runs noticably faster.

 

well it runs faster.

Like I said Im using the release home premium not rc.
basic problems make vista unusable for almost any user level.

huge invasive non disable-able security features make most software unusable without updating it for vista.

Even to save a word processing file. Vista comes out of the box and updates 3 microsoft programs that i dont use like word and office. Anything else might not work.

Access to control panel is almost gone. Youre unable to change the resolution of your screen you can only tell it to detect.
Youre unable to change things like hibernation, clock speeds, power profiles disk indexing page file etc.

Every program requires you allow it to run before it starts. Major headache that has to be changed before anyone will use this thing.


on the positive side aero additions are nice that can stay

i ran the laptopvideo2go vista drivers for the nvidia 7650 which can only be the 7700 but not official at all many of my problems were because of that no doubt.

vista controls the gpu clock speed and overrides any change.

 

I can give you this basic review on it, if computers come with vista installed apple will gain market share.
Im even going to look into the release dates of vista installed computers so I can buy stock I feel so certain about it.
Hardly anyone is going to walk out of best buy with a computer that does this.

 

Well I heard Vista's new security features were intrusive, but I had no idea it was that bad. I only ever played around with Beta 2 for a few days so I don't have that much personal experience with how Visat currently feels. Definitely will stick with XP for a while and it certainly makes the MBP and OS X more attractive.

 

hey its just this simple in a nutshell....this is the most important problem

To run a program you have to answer a pop up that asks do you want to allow this program to run.

Every time. If you think that doesnt get old....
No kidding I want the program to run thats why i clicked it.
No one wants to answer dialogue boxes to allow access for every single hard drive access.
I dont even understand what this security is preventing, an email virus? It would prevent the virus spread no doubt but this feature is worse than any virus lol.
There is no database of allowing programs in it. No turning it off....

all the computer looky loos are going to spend 10 minutes of clicking the access balloons and then theyll say forget this. Xp programs are not allowed to write to hard drives.
The whole concept has to be either canned or come with some sort of over ride when it gets released.

 

lol I finally figured out how to turn that feature off lol.

way different vibe now that that headache is gone.

Now Ive got to figure out how to make it run games.