W3J vs 15.4" MBP (both Merom) - Suggestions?

When I first saw the Yonah W3J I was quite sure that was the design for me once the Merom refreshes came out. Now I'm one of those people who are a little bit disappointed with the configuration (in general and compared to the A8Js), and now that the Merom MacBook Pros are out, I'm going to have to decide between the two. I'm not considering the A8Js since I want internal Bluetooth and the battery life seems too short.

The configurations are:

W3J
14" (1280x768)
1.66GHz T5500 (no VT)
1GB DDR2 667
100GB 5400rpm HDD
256MB X1600 (450MHz/450MHz)
Bluetooth, 802.11g
33 x 24.7 x 3.0-3.27 cm (WxDxH)
~5.4lbs with 8-cell and ODD

$2049 CND (cheaper with Group Buy, but still in range of MBP)

MacBook Pro
15.4" (1440x900)
2.16GHz T7400 (with VT)
1GB DDR2 667
120GB 5400rpm HDD
128MB X1600 (419MHz/445MHz)
Bluetooth, draft-802.11n
35.7 x 24.3 x 2.59 cm (WxDxH)
5.6lbs with battery and ODD

$1999 CND

Based on the above configurations I'm really leaning toward the MBP. It offers a much more aggressive configuration for a similar price.

The main disadvantage with the MBP is the graphics card is slightly slower and only has half the memory. Still the clocks are improved signifcantly over the Yonah MBPs and the base configuration with stock drivers scores around 3600 in 3DMark05. People who doubled the RAM to 2GB and got a 160GB HDD can increase their score by 100 points or more so the MBP's gaming performance should be more than enough. (For interest, all MBP's appear to be outfitted with Samsung GDDR3 rated for 700MHz operation so they are running it low to save power and there's a lot more clocking room left. In fact someone clocked the 2.33GHz model to 510/520 and got 5010 in 3DMark05.)

A nice thing about these new MBPs are that the heat problems are now solved (noticably cooler than the Yonah ones despite the Merom and higher clocked GPUs) due to much wider vents at the back. They also include a draft-N WiFi card by Atheros so that's about as future-proof as you can get there. The other obvious things like faster CPU, bigger HDD, webcam, HDD protection system, ambient keyboard and screen adjustment, and remote control are all nice to have. The Merom MBPs also added back dual layer burning capability so that disadvantage is eliminated.

The things still in the W3J's favour are size, but that's mainly in the width (by an inch) since the MBP has the same depth and is thinner. The weight is also very close (like 0.2lbs) if both are with optical drive. The W3J has the 2nd battery option, but reports are that the MBP can get 3.5hrs under "normal" work with Wifi on and 50% brightness, which is probably enough for me. Some people claim hitting 4.5hrs, but that is probably a bit unrealistic, but I'm sure if you're really aggressive close to 4hrs is reachable. The W3J does have it's unique stylish look since although the MBP looks nice too, it's getting more common with Apple's popularity.

This is getting a bit long so I'll just add that I can get a full license of Windows XP Pro from Microsoft for free so with Boot Camp, using Mac is not an issue. I'm sure you've noticed that the slant is toward the MBP, which I'll probably get unless someone can convince be to see the light at the end of the W3J tunnel.

 

Of course, I would also go with the macbook pro, but it only has 2(!!!!) USB 2.0 ports, which is kinda below the minimum for me (I don't know about you though) while the W3J has 3 which is the minimum for me.... Also, many pieces of critical software are still running through Rosetta (did someone say Microsoft Office?) and finally, the GPU is, well, meh, though I've heard people overclocking it safely to around 430/430. Finally about the battery, on the most battery conserving mode with the screen all the way down, my friend got 5 hours & 7 miniutes (also undervolted CPU) on the original Core Duo model. Overall, I would get the Macbook Pro because of the features, though there are still some quirks yet to sort out. Any other questions just post.

 

Well the Asus also has a 2 year warranty and hasn't been constantly plagued by manufacturing defects which have affected thousands of computers and required countless patches or recalls. Also... it's a Mac. It will never run PC software, even in Boot Camp or Parallels perfectly. Last I checked the camera and glowing keyboard don't work when running Windows on it. Driver support is never going to be perfect and good luck if you ever need to find support with a Windows related issue which is specific to an Apple computer. If you're planning to use OSX... well that's a whole 'nother issue.

~ Brett

 

What are you planning on using the machine for? Gaming? Go W3. Video Editing? Go MBP. Buying a MBP only to use Windows is not a smart idea. Boot Camp has compatibility issues.

 

Easy..

Choose the Macbook Pro if you:
- prefer better styling (cool factor).
- like the easy to use interface of OSX.
- need the extra screen real estate that 1440x900 provides.

Choose the W3J if you:
- need extra portability and battery life.
- want to play games at a higher framerate.

 

Hey! The W3J looks cool and nice too, cy007!

It seems to me like you'll be using the MacBook Pro for Windows, if you're comparing it with a PC laptop. I say its pointless to get a Mac and run Windows on it. You're wasting money, and its still not the same as running Windows on a Windows notebook.

If you're planning to use Mac OS X, then there's no decision. It has to be the MacBook Pro. But I'll warn you, Mac is horrible for gaming, and doesn't have as much productivity software.

Except for the arts section, like Photoshop, Final Cut Studio, etc.

 

Well for the comment about the GPU, it's no longer underclocked. All models have the X1600 clocked to 419MHz core and 445MHz memory by default so that's no longer a concern.

In terms of the USB ports, 2 does seem limited, but I'm planning on getting a Bluetooth mouse so that's one less thing to connect. It already has a built-in webcam and I'll be connecting to printers wirelessly so I don't need ports there. I'd just be connecting USB keys so I'm thinking that I can squeek by with 2 ports.

In terms of the manufacturing complaints a lot of those like whining, mooing, expansion, etc. were related to the heat concerns all of which are now resolved. I'm hoping that since this is the 2nd revision (actually version 2.2), they've solve most of the major issues by now. Knock on wood. But, yes the W3J does offer longer warranty, bluetooth mouse, and a carrying case, which definitely add value.

In terms of driver support for XP, Boot Camp is still definitely in beta. The drivers are nearly feature complete though since the webcam and microphone are now support in XP. Scrolling, right-clicking, and improved keyboard features have also been added according to Apple so unless I'm missing something, the hardware is pretty much covered. It's just some extra features like the hard drive sensor and keyboard lighting that you mentioned that aren't supported yet, but those are not critical functionality.

For upgrades, I'm looking for I'd definitely be going with 2GB of RAM and a 160GB HDD either way. For Apple, I'd get the HDD from them. They use a Hitachi PMR model which is actually the fastest 5400rpm HDD for desktop use. The Seagate model is about the same or slightly slower than the Hitachi in desktop use, but leads in web server usage, which I don't need. Seagate also uses more power than Apple's Hitachi. I would be getting the RAM separately and installing myself. For the W3J I'd be getting them through MilestonePC and I've talked to Danny about it and he's said that 160GB HDDs are generally harder to get so it isn't a sure thing.

Does anyone know what the response times of the LCD used in the W3J and MBP are? I would think they aren't as low as the 2ms we're seeing in desktop LCDs, but I haven't heard mobile gamers complaining.

Edit:
In terms of usage I'll mostly be using it for Windows, but I will be doing some video editing. Not crazy stuff, but I've used iMovie many times before and found it very convenient. I'd also consider getting a version of Final Cut Pro (Express perhaps?) if I go Mac or I guess Premiere would be the PC equivalent.

 

I'll give my 2 cents since I own a Macbook and an A8Js.

The Macbook runs XP great. It has no compatibility problems with software, so don't let people tell you that Bootcamp has compatibility problems. The iSight works great under MSN Messenger and other apps. The main problems I had were the trackpad and the keyboard. Its an Apple keyboard of course so things like a "real" delete key aren't present, and other little things that can make using it a pain. The trackpad support right now is terrible. I know they just released 1.1.2 and now you can use 2 finger scrolling, but the tracking of the mouse is horrid. Its very twitchy, and the mouse cursor can "pulse" just with your finger on the trackpad.

With an external keyboard and mouse, XP is just like on a normal computer. If I had a Mini or an iMac, it would be great. But on a laptop, Bootcamp leaves a bit to be desired.

Maybe it will be improved significantly when Leopard is released.

 

I'm planning to use a bluetooth mouse anyways to avoid these mousing issues. How do you currently right click with 1.1.2? Is it still clicking with the right command key or have they also added two finger clicking?

Also is battery life actually shorter in Windows than OS X? Or is Apple just trying to play that up to make OS X look better.

 

my 2 cents is that asus is better build than the mac, and if moslty you are using windows stick with a windows machine

 

Hehe an interesting note you might wanna hear though, yuio:

Asus makes the Apple laptops. Its true! They're the supplier!

 

What is the point of getting a windows machine if it does not perform as well as the mac? not only that but there is the anomaly of the mac running cooler than the W3j. As far as compatibility problems go Apple claims there will be non with the release of Leopard.
Another thing is that if you plan on doing any video editing the mac wins flat out. check out the reviews of video editing software for windows at CNET, I think the best one has a rating of 6 out of 10, thats terrible. now don't get me wrong. The W3j is an awesome laptop, in fact if it had the better proc I would recommend it simply because it could perform better. But that is not the case hear. another consideration is that the mac is going to have better resale value. If the warrenty bugs you it can be upgraded within the same year you purchase it.
I normally would go for the windows machine because they typically provide better performance for less money. That seems like an awfully good price though, in the USA the macbook pro costs $2000 retail.

 

if i remember correctly, asus only makes the macbook, not the mbp.

 

asus makes the macbook but quanta makes the mac book pro

 

There's an Apple Powerbook G4 at work, which I believe, has the same exact dimensions as the MBP. We also have a Dell D620 and an XPS M1210. It's really amazing how slim a footprint the Apple is. With the lids opening at the same angle.. the apple is as tall as the XPSM1210! (a 12" widescreen) dimensoins wise, I stacked it on top of the Dell D620 and it was virtually the same! the thin bezel around the screen and the fact that it hinges behind the chasis gives it a much smaller "foot print". However both the G4 and especally the MBP are hot.. I found the MBP to be very warm when idle.. i wonder how hot it gets when running demanding tasks.

 

Hmm, I can certainly see the MBP having a small footprint. It's actually not as deep as the W3J for instance despite the larger screen size and the webcam in the frame. The thinness and the light weight for a 15.4" labtop probably also makes it seem smaller than it is.

MilestonePC is now offering options to upgrade the Merom refreshes to a T7200 or a T7400. But for $250 for the T7200 it's an expensive proposition compared to the MBP with T7400 for $1999. I've contacted them to see if they can offer a better deal so we'll see.

Thanks for everyone's contributions so far.

 

Apple added two finger right clicking in 1.1.2 along with two finger scrolling. It doesn't work as well as it does in OSX (where it is wonderful) though.

The power management functions don't work as well in Windows as in OSX. My Macbook runs hotter and shorter than in OSX when I am in Windows.

 

Please realize that I am not a salesman for BTOTECH but I have contacted them about purchaseing a W3J. They do customizations that I suppose void the ASUS warranty but they back up the systems with their own warranty. Their reseller ratings are very high and you can get a W3J preconfigured with any of the T7000 series Core 2 duo processors, and 7200RPM hard disk upgrades (as well as memory upgrades). I think that would solve your problem instead of waiting for a refresh that still may not put all the components you want in one place.

 

Im very jealous of your position right now. I was considering the MBP back in the yonah days and quickly got turned away. If what you say about the C2D MBPs is true, then i think you should get the C2D MBP and never look back.

The X1600 is clocked normally, no heat related noises, and no heat on the underside to prevent putting it on your lap. Darn it, i knew i should have waited.

As much as i respect Asus and the W3J, the MBP offers more. Just the fact that the MBP comes with OSX is enough reason.

Good luck.

EDIT:

Does you price in CND include the student discount from apple? If you know any students have them buy it for you or you buy it for them.

 

My $1999 CND price is with the student discount. The regular price is $2199 and it's $200 off for students which is 10%, which I think is very generous of them. Upgrades are also cheaper so I can go from a 120GB HDD to a 160GB Perpendicular for only $109 instead of the regular $120. If I get it, I would upgrade the RAM myself for around $150 versus $210 Apple regular and $191 student discounted.

Basically a MBP configured:
2.16GHz T7200
2GB DDR2 667
160GB HDD

costs $2258 CND before taxes. I can get a full legal license of XP Pro for free from Microsoft so that adds no extra cost.

while a W3J
2GHz T7200
2GB DDR2 667
100GB HDD

costs about $2449 CND from MilestonePC before Group Buy discount, which won't be nearly enough to make up the MBP difference. The W3J would still have a much smaller HDD though although I would have to get a Bluetooth mouse separately with the MBP.

Seeing that XP use is fine if you use a separate mouse and I get the benefit of OS X I'm definitely leaning toward the MBP. I'll have to wait for a few actual reviews first though.

 

Just wondering...where did you get Microsoft XP Pro for free? Or did you just have the installation disk and the key without usage...

 

Microsoft has a program for education users that the Faculty I'm at is part of where they provide free software such as OSs (everything from Windows 95 to 2003 Server and no doubt Vista once it's released and they've recouped some money after a few months of sales) and Visual Studio to encourage us to develop software for their platform. I find it kind of quaint that the big monopoly with all it's efforts on anti-piracy to ensure people pay for their products is going to give me free software to install on a Mac no less. I certainly can't complain.

 

Looks like MBP is a clear winner? Personally I think MBP's design is ugly... sorry. And are you prepared with the graininess issue which AFAIK has not yet been solved in MBP? You know, MBP = X1600 = graininess. No BIOS update = graininess = go figure.

 

I've personally seen the MBP in operation, and can't say I noticed any issue with graininess. Considering the MBP's target market (video and graphic design) a dodgy video BIOS seems unlikely.

They may moo, they may scorch your genitals and they may randomly shut down... but the displays on every Apple notebook I've ever seen has been decent at the least.

 

At least two MBP owners asked for BIOS fix for graininess issue in the other ASUS forum.

Here's one of the posts: "Hi, Ken! I sent couple of messages asking for a BIOS update to Apple.com:s forums. But I think we should contact someone directly in Apple. I just don't know who. Also, I'm not sure how keen Apple is helping Windows XP users. The worst case scenario is that, they would just release a bios update for MAC OS X.. but then again, I guess the same bios update would fix the windows side as well, because its the graphics cards bios.

There's lot's of angry MacBook Pro users there, so I think many of us would be very happy when this issue is fixed."

Uh-oh...

 

It seems that everyone is going to have their own biases on this issue..for example, Im not particularly a fan of OSX and I liked the w3j's design better so I went with the latter. Your specific needs are going to dictate what you eventually decide on. This thread is gonna go back and forth between the two and I doubt there will be a "clear winner". It seems like youre pretty set on the MBP so I guarantee you'll enjoy it no matter what anyone says. That said...I love my W3J and I wouldnt trade it for anything currently out in the market!! Good luck

 

Yes, everyone has their own biases on this issue, but hands down, the MBP is a better deal thanks to the better components, all-aluminum build, larger screen in nearly the same form-factor, and lower price. W3J-owners will be biased in that they'll try to justify to themselves and others that they didn't get the worse deal.

That's obviously a faked quote. There's a thread about graininess on the W3J on this very forum that robohgedhang ripped this "quote" from and changed the references to the MBP. Here's a sign that W3J owners are desperate in defending their investment.

 

Actually, no, that is not a faked quote.

Personally, I think the MBP is overpriced for the specs that you get and OSX isnt that great anyways. Anyways you'll need an extra copy of win xp for bootcamp.

 

A8Js battery life is actually only 5 minutes shorter than W3J under same use, now we offer A8Js factory installed BT version, plus 7700 512M and DVI port, and price of A8Js is is way lower than W3J, maybe these will change your decision?

 

Why in earth did you say its a faked quote? I presonally wrote that!

I took some photos of my MacBook Pro screen with my digitalcamera with macro lens. The photos have been taken very near the screen, so you can clearly see the grainy pixel patterns. The first photo is supposed to be a solid black on a website background. The second one is taken from gradient fill (gray to black) in Photoshop. The third one is a picture of a car tire.

And yes the same kind of grain was created by ATI Mobility X1600 graphics card (same as apple is using) on ASUS computers, and they fixed it with a bios update. So I think there could be a way to update the bios for Mac as well.

Here are the pictures: http://www.laspalmas.nu/macbookpro_grain.jpg

 

at $1799 (using educational discounts) it's actually not over priced.. especially when you get a 2.16ghz C2D processor, 120gb HD, higher res screen, and an x1600 that isnt nerfed like the Yonah version.

 

And incidentally, for those who cannot get education discount you can get the Macbook Pro for $1844 from MacMall with free shipping and no tax(it is actually cheaper than getting it from Apple with education discount)

 

one thing of note, I bought w3j over a MBpro for school, and most of the other students in my program went with the MBpro, they have been plague with so many problems... say there are about 60 people that bought them, I know personally of 11 people who have had theirs break and had to ship them back... and with the 3 month warrenty now being up, some of the new problems cropping up are really screwing them... the 2 year warrenty is almost worth it alone... oh and I like games, so it was an easy choice for me