S-XPS 1645 AC Power Throttle Issue Investigation

Crysis is actually one of the more CPU-intensive games, much more than most FPS games.

Well, someone way back when did tests with the 210W and that didn't solve the issue, either. Probably needs the stupid motherboard update/BIOS update.

~Ibrahim~

 

I really encourage everyone to post results they get from their own tests and observations. Even if its already been done before.

This laptop of mine is apparently going to the "engineers" investigating this problem, and i would like to put all our results staring them in the face when they start the laptop. As far as i know this is what they said they are doing, as the new laptop should arrive in a week or so. Going to organize it in folders and change the background to giant words and arrows so a 3 year old couldnt miss it.

The more i talk to them, the more severe this problem gets. Mainly because they seem perplexed by our accusations of power problems. I hope im not getting a big run around on this deal. But i am getting slightly aggravated that "engineers" that do this for a living cant figure it out. As my games are playable, but still they are a lot better on battery vs AC, never would of payed this much for a watered down laptop, if i knew i would have gotten the asus.

 

They wanted to do this with me about 10 days ago and I denied them because I am happy the way mine works for me, all I did was report about the adapter issue. I am just wondering why do they need your laptop, they should have been had one already from the factory and been doing these tests already. This sure sounds like that they have not checked into any of these issues at all

 

They were insisting pretty hard, told them i couldnt go without a laptop and they said i can just send it in when i get the new one. I cloned the 240gb hd to a 320gb hd that was in my old laptop, so all i need to do is swap The old hd back in so no effort on my part really, so i figured whatever maybe itll fix the dvd issues i have.

But yeah thats exactly what ive been thinking that they havnt really looked into this. And why im hoping im not getting the run around. How was your experience talking with them on the phone? It came off to me as them thinking its very isolated problem, and that its a setting or program issue we ourselves screwed up. Again leading me to believe they have no idea.

 

Someone from the Level 2 or 3 called me before to collect my laptop and later retracted what they said. I hope they can find a solution soon.

 

What we need to do is make a lot of noise and send them a lot of mails with links to this Forum. And Tell them EVERYONE has this problem and it is very much NOT isolated.

 

One problem is this thread has no credibility. Make your own case, tell them what your system is doing that is a problem, and they will work on it. Provide your own details and benchmarks. So far nothing has been substantiated in this thread as to what the issue even is, just a bunch of goofs trying to get their computers to crash and malfunction. If this "throttling" thing is really causing you a problem, then take it to support and they'll work to understand and resolve the issue.

 

The people on this forum are a small percentage considering the amount of units sold. Most people will not use this system for heavy gaming and will likely not notice any throttling. It's really difficult to say EVERYONE has this issue.

 

Let's reword that to say:

It's really difficult to say EVERYONE experiences this issue.



~Ibrahim~

 

Gaah, you should research it, and you will see this discussed in Dell's own forums and blogs.

As to why you don't see it, maybe you just don't use applications that stress the laptop. I don't have issues unless I use certain programs, but the issue is readily observable. I am not using benchmark software to cause the issue, I don't need to, I am able to see it in programs I use daily. I have seen it in games, photoshop and decompressing/installing programs.

To observe the issue I use just the CPU usage history and Tmonitor. Tmonitor shows the clock speeds, and Window's CPU usage gives you an idea of how much idle time is available at the current clock rate. In my opinion you need to look at both, as the CPU will throttle down during high idle in order to reduce power, and that is a valid strategy.

I've contacted dell, and they acknowledge their is an issue, and they are currently looking for a solution. They have offered for me to return the laptop, and told them if it's not fixed satisfactorily, I will, but I will be patient and let them investigate.

As there are many more users than there are engineers investigating the issue, it is informative to know what they are seeing, and their suggestions. The purpose of these forums is to spread that info, you should not try to discourage it.

 

Thanks for the advice, no one thought of doing that.

 

Just the fact that some kind of throttling occurs isn't a problem; in fact, it does that as intended. I've already seen that it happens, but it doesn't seem to cause any problem. Performance and system stability are just fine.

 

Throttling should happen when the processor is hot or to preserve power when the user intention is to extend the battery life, other than that it shouldn't happen.
The problem is it happens when it shouldn't, when the processor is at 74-75C and GPU is loaded.
As far as the benchmarks and test revealed it happens when the power consumption is around 90W to protect the notebook from withdrawing more power from the adapter and/or to limit the heat dissipated from the system. If this turns out to be the case, then this is a series design flaw.
It may be as easy as a conservative power management algorithm, or a hardware limitation.

 

Im sorry, but its a lot of money to spend on a laptop thats supposed to have performance. And no offense but like romill i got it to run the simulation and cad software i do for my masters in engineering. aybe see my gf more often now that im portable. Along with casual gaming i expect it to perform like its advertised. The fact that i can put it on battery and everything run smoother and better is rather disappointing for spending so much. This isnt an inspiron thats supposed to be cheap and good for the daily user.

The results from other peoples machines in this thread is very valid as it shows something is very wrong as performance goes. Stress testing is just further verification of the problem, and that it again runs fine on battery is very disappointing. Its not a thermal issue, it runs great on battery.

its like buying a 300hp sports car, and them saying hey we limited you to 150hp cause we decided to put a small radiator in it. no worries will still charge your 50k.

 

I don't do significant gaming on my laptop, so it's a smaller issue that I can workaround anyway. But this is advertised as a laptop for gaming, and Dell should resolve the issue. The fact this thread exists is because they don't have a resolution, and Dell reps give us conflicting responses that only adds to the confusion. Besides it can't be good for your a/c adapter to be run at near capacity at all times, I can't see them lasting very long with all this heat.

 

....what? have you been keeping up with this thread? And seeing all the tests people have done? Everyday daily use is fine..sure. but Anything CPU and GPU intensive causes throttling and this is "ok"? No One spends extra money on a good graphics card and a good processor to not be able to use it to it's full potential.

 

just curious, how is the envy15 more powerful?

 

ATI 4830 vs ATI 4670

 

I agree with you for the most part. I haven't seen this laptop being advertised for gaming though. It's been advertised as a multimedia laptop from what I've seen.

All I'm saying is that not "everybody" is experiencing this problem because not "everybody" is pushing this laptop in benchmarks or gaming. We are a small population of the overall user community for the 1645. People on this board are making it sound like every person who bought this laptop is complaining of a faulty system where as 90% of the people won't complain because they don't know the difference.

 

Hello, I recieved my xps 1645 this week.

XPS1645-i7 820, 256 SSD, RGBLED, 4G RAM, 90 watt adapter.

I have updated the bios to a03 and it does seem to have solved the cpu throttling when running prime 95 on its own.I reach multiplier of 13 with ac and battery.(I have i7 820)

However when I run Furmark and Prime95 the cpu will throttle back to 9 with max brightness for both ac and battery.

With min brightness the cpu will will reach multiplier of 10 with ac and 9.4 with battery.



After rining Technical siupport I am of the opinion that they are either lying about the problem or that they have not been informed.



I hace spoken to 2 tech support managers.

The latest time I sent him my test results and he complained that they were 3rd party tests!

Links to screenshots of test results


http://www.filedropper.com/acadaptermaxbrightness

http://www.filedropper.com/acadapterminbrightness

http://www.filedropper.com/batterymaxbrightness

http://www.filedropper.com/batteryminbrightness



First said that he was not aware of the problem and then said he was!
I asked if the A03 bios included an update to fix the problem and he said it did.
I then asked him if he did not know of this issue how did he know that the a03 bios was addressing it and to find out for me what issues it was supposed to address.

No response from him.

Blantant lying or ineptness?


He offered to give me the 130watt supply to get rid of me but said if I accept it would void my warranty!I did not accept it.

I mentioned the 130 watt apapter the previous times I called so maybe he saw this in my file notes.


He said that I would recievce email in three days with more info.


Why wont dell tell their staff that there is a problem.Or if they do why are they not telling us?

How hard can it be for them to run tests and recreate the problem?

I will bring food with me when I jump from the Empire State building as it will be a long long way down.



Its all very frustrating.



XPS1645-i7 820, 256 SSD, RGBLED, 4G RAM, 90 watt adapter.

 

Really this problem seems to affect every 1645, the more test the stronger our case, I dont think they would of gotten as many sales as they did if people knew it was only going to be mediocre like it is. Say it doesnt affect you, and your fine with it. What happens in the future when things start to take advantage of this tech, and it does start affecting your experience. While someone else with a different brand is just chuggin along, youll probably feel frustrated like the rest of us. thats where we are at now.

quietcat i feel the same way with them wanting my laptop. It would take less then an hour to recreate our problems and say hey there might be something to this. Unless their using dev boards and dont have a production xps 16 or something i really am at a loss if they truely are working on the problem.

 

Lots of folks understandably mention gaming but it should be noted that some of us, including me, get severe throttling when trying to view Hulu full screen. A 2009 laptop should be able to run Hulu full screen with no problems. And with the behavior I've seen, the only option is to reboot.

 

I get similar experiences when I call. It's been nearly a couple weeks since I last bothered them, so I'll call again. The last time the Dell rep said the new BIOS update would fix the issue, which we know was a lie since it had nothing to do with it. I may just send them email this time so I have a record and there may be less communication problems.

 

Well, the Dell reps actually told me that it's advertised for gaming and they will fix the problem. Keep in mind though, that this laptop is kind of a niche model. It's not clearly advertised on the Dell site, if you try to order a XPS 16 normally only the 1640 with Core 2 Duo is listed. You need to go poking and searching around to find their Core i7 models. So the only people who buy one are explicitly looking for that processor. And if its underperforming, well, that really sucks.

 

No offense but it's easy to find on the website and clearly identified as a multimedia laptop.

Underperforming still sucks

 

notice in your picture. the little black box that says how customers use there studio xps 16. and big letters saying GAMING. its what their advertising

 

lol...sorry, but this is unfortunately not correct. You're looking at the STOCK image...try CLICKING that picture to see what people are saying about the SXPS 16. And no matter what that even says, that thing presumably just pulls quotes from people's REVIEWS...people who do NOT work for Dell.

~Ibrahim~

 

I called today asking for the AC power adapter 130W because of the throttling issue, the rep put me on hold to check with his supervisor then came back telling that DELL is not aware of any issues regarding the said.
Thats unreal

 

Not trying to rub anyone the wrong way, Dell has that covered. Just trying to keep everyone level headed to avoid the mob mentality here.

 

ok then, go to the xps 16 main page, and click the design tab. it specifically mentions gaming and all its ultimate performance.

the 1640 you can find on google all around as a business and gaming laptop

edit: im sorry im just tired, not trying to rub the wrong way either. but they do mention gaming, and was part of the reason i was excited for it. as a full desktop replacement that is

 

Oh, you mean this part?

"With its high-performance 512MB ATI graphics card or optional 1GB ATI graphics card, the Dell Studio XPS 16 delivers true-to-life entertainment. And your graphics-intensive applications run like a charm. So you can easily create digital content — or just sit back to enjoy it — with unbelievable realism."

Must have missed that bit; good find.

~Ibrahim~

 

Actually this part where they actually said so. but thats good too lol

when i saw it i assumed ultimate multimedia experience included gaming with them.

edit to stay on topic, the more results from different machines is good. As ill compile it and hopefully the "engineers" will see it. As it really does seem its a design flaw, and not isolated issues which i think they are thinking, with the convo's ive had with them

 

Agreed that we need to pull together to have any chance of this issue being taken seriously and not let what has happened to the doomed e6500 with 19 bios revisions and still no solution.

I think we need to rename the thread to "XPS 1645 Throttle Issue Investigation" as there is issues when powered with both battery and ac as far as I can see.

 

As an aside has anybody posted a comment on the dell forum regarding this issue.

I have been going back regularly to check for more postings but find it strange that there hasnt been any.

Are dell censoring complaints about this?

Link to thread about problem on dell forum

http://en.community.dell.com/forums/t/19306277.aspx

 

Maybe if we have links to our test results in our signature with system details.

 

Now wait, what's wrong with the battery?!

If there's something wrong with that, too...UGH.

~Ibrahim~

 

Take a look at the screenshots in my sig for test results.

If I have time today I will run these tests with the A01 and A02 bios revisions to see if there are differences.

But isnt that dells job!!!!!!

 

If you stress both the gpu and cpu with stress tests, you can still get throttling on battery. Thats stress test's though, actuall game/app performance seem to be okay on battery. Whether thats an issue or not i dunno, if the ac adapter just worked i dont think most people would care if they could max stress both at once on battery.

 

Ohh...I got it.

Thanks, guys.

~Ibrahim~

 

Anyone know when Dell will have this fixed with the power. I still want this notebook to go with my HP Dv8t. Looks like the delays got under control. I just read that they were having issues with the AC, something about it not giving enough power?

 

As far as I can make out Dell have yet to officially admit that there even is a problem.

Sigh

 

I read tinkerdude's 59 page pdf about the Latitude E6500 and it was very clear what the problem was. On these Core 2 Duo laptops, not only is the Dell bios throttling back the CPU multiplier to 6.0 instead of 8.5 for a P8400, it is also enabling Super Low Frequency Mode (SLFM) that drops the BCLK internally in half from 266 MHz down to 133 MHz.

After this insanity, temperatures are well under control but the Dell bios keeps going further and enables Clock Modulation step by step which internally throttles the CPU even further. The end result is a CPU that is performing at 10% of its potential and Dell still doesn't think this is a problem.

If this wasn't bad enough, after returning to idle, the bios doesn't let the CPU return back to full power for 15 minutes even though it's sitting there doing nothing. If anyone wrote a virus like this they'd throw them in jail.

My solution was to write a small program that continuously monitors any throttling attempts by the bios and immediately changes things back to the way the CPU should be. I'm still waiting for some feedback but I've got a feeling that the Latitude E6500 is going to be a lot more usable now. Here's that tool if anyone needs it:

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?p=4147775#post4147775

I've heard of CPU-Z reporting multipliers below the minimum of 7.0 for a Core i7-720QM. That's a physical impossibility and is usually a warning sign that Clock Modulation has been enabled in the background without a user's knowledge similar to what the Latitudes are doing.

If you want to check for this then you can run this MSR Tool and have a look at the register that controls this inside your CPU.

http://www.fileden.com/files/2008/3/3/1794507/MSR.zip

The Clock Modulation register is MSR 0x19A. Open this tool, enter 0x19A in the MSR Number box at the bottom and click on the Read MSR button to read this value in real time. Have a look at the last two digits. They are usually 00 or 02 when no Clock Modulation is in progress. If the digit on the left is a 1 then that means Clock Modulation is throttling your computer. You can click on Read MSR as often as you like when testing. If you see any values like 1E, 1C, 1A, 18, 16, 14 or 12; those values represent various levels of throttling.

Dell might not be using this method of heat control on the i7 CPUs. If they are, I'll try to come up with a fix so users can decide whether they want to use 100% of the CPU power that they paid for. Post some results next time your computer seems to be throttling and let's make sure this cruel throttling joke isn't killing the performance of the Core i7 CPUs like it's been doing to the previous Core 2 generation for a long, long time.

 

Can the throttling be stopped if there is not enough power to power to individual components? I think this may be a predominantly a hardware issue. Not too sure if this approach will be fruitful but why not?

 

@unclewebb

With just P95 running on the AC, my multi went from 9-11x on full brightness to 12x on low brightness, but the digits stayed 00 on the 63...32 side and 02 on the 31-0 side for all cores no matter the brightness and I refreshed as fast I could click...



~Ibrahim~

 

Just to make sure tests are comparable

Are you on A03 bios?

Prime95 Torture Test with Small FFT

Did you change the power options for max performance before the test?

And for battery tests disable dell extend battery life and change/disable ati powerplay.

It makes a difference as far as I can remember

 

A03: yes
Power Options: Max performance for EVERYTHING
Extended battery life: OFF
Powerplay: Maximum Performance

Any test someone does here should be with these settings...



~Ibrahim~

 

Forgot to mention that I was running Prime95 using torture test and Small FFT

 

When I stress the machine I see 0x12 and 0x14 appear, but the clock modulation flag isn't set. I'm going to grab the Intel manual and see if I can find out what they are for.

Edit: Okay I misunderstand, I thought you said bit 0 enables clock modulation, looks like its getting turned on then. Maybe we can disassemble the BIOS and search for the WRMSR instructions.

Looks like it's jumping between 12.5% and 25% duty cycle.

Edit 2: If I write 0 to IA32_CLOCK_MODULATION then the CPU C0 State Percent will go to 100 instead of 25 or whatever. However the multipliers are still 7x. How do we control the multiplier?

 

okay, and how about the users who see framerate drops to a slide show, and audio crackling? but when i use the 130W or battery, it works great. that seems to fly in the face of your last two posts before this one.

1. not trying to break my machine, just was trying to game

2. don't know if you have gamed before, but when you do, it's nice to have a framerate above 5, and it's nice if the machine doesn't dip to there.

also nice to have audio that doesn't crack.

3. riddle me this batman, if you think this is intended and not an issue, why would dell limit my fps to 1?

and why doesn't it throttle when on battery, if it is not in error?

 

Yeah I see the CPU drop to an effective clock rate of 133 mhz (7x multipler with 12.5% clock modulation). Have you tried playing Crysis on a 133 mhz CPU?