S-XPS 1645 Throttling Info. and Updates

Hi guys just to clarify, this is not a written agreement, it is simply a chat log were by I ask a rep can I return after 21 days if throtteling and, secondly if after I try the BIOS fix, if it comes out and im not happy can I ship it back which he says yes. I ask him to clarify that again and he says yes no problem.

I dont know if this will get me in trouble but I am more than happy to share this information with you guys when I have got rid of my name. I would also advise you guys to do the same as I did and go online chat and ask them yourselfs incase they say they cant accept this as a proof agreement as it wasnt sent to you.

 

This is so upsetting. I really like this laptop and will hate to see it go but I can't keep this laptop knowing it performs at less than 1ghz when playing Crysis. I just hope they will at least let me exchange it
I remember reading a post in this thread that the 1647 does not throttle. Can anyone confirm this? Would this be a good machine to exchange for if they give me that option or is there any other Dell machines that compare to my specs?

 

It does throttle ! especially if youget the RGB screen. i5 doesnt throttle as much as the i7 quad core counter part.

 

I think so far the 1647 is inconclusive. Stormwerks showed severe throttling of the multipliers in game. While Deathwalking showed no throttling with prime95 + furmark. It doesnt really add up or make much sense yet. Death had a wled screen and storm has a rgbled, and they both have different processors storm bein an i5 and death being the i7. Need more testing done, and to figure out why that is. So far i im very skeptical if they dont throttle, although some over in the thread seem to think its alright as long as the games etc are still playable. I see that throttling in general has you worried like it does me and a lot of other people, i would wait and see until others have come up with more concrete evidence and why.

 

Are there any Dell laptops built in the last year and a half that use an ATI or Nvidia GPU that don't have any throttling issues when pushed hard?

So far I've seen severe problems with Latitude, XPS 1640, 1645, 1647, Precision, Studio, etc. and I've only been looking into this for a month and a half.

If you know of one and can do some testing go for it. I can't think of any off hand. As the Dell rep said, they all throttle. That is how they are designed. Fine for surfing the internet but not so great for gaming when you try to use the CPU and GPU at the same time.

 

Has anyone else noticed that dell has essentially lowered the price 200-300$ on the studio xps 16? (dell canada)

I tried repricing one just for fun now and with either the i5 or i7 and they both came out under 2000 even with 3 yr nbd support. Could they be trying to offload them while the offloading is good?

As for the return after the 21 day window, the last time I spoke to a representative on the phone, they agree to write in my file that if the issue wasn't resolved that they would take the computer back. I made sure to get confirmation from a supervisor as well.

So if you become very insistent (but still pleasent) the support will do their best to help you.

Just imagine what a crap job they have....having to pretend each day they haven't heard of the issue - I am sure it is taxing on them too, to deal with it.

 

I can feel you...I actually really like this machine as well...Well, but I guess I will return it and wait for couple months and the USB 3.0... I honestly don't think that they will solve the problem...

 

Are Dell deliberately making their laptops under-perform so that owners will have to upgrade sooner?

The lower powered adapter was a happy side effect.

I cant think of any other reason!!!

If they are this is BIG!!!!!!!!!

 

Here's what I've sent to The Register in the UK, which anyone is welcome to use or copy from. Let's see what comes of it....

Hi

If, like me, you've bought Dell's flagship Studio XPS 16

http://configure.euro.dell.com/dell...d=122756&acd=ba230ae379d772b573739bf3e4b72c77

with the quad-core i7 processor, the Radeon HD4670 graphics card, the full HD RGBLED screen and all the other goodies, then you'd be incensed to learn that it runs no faster than an old Pentium when you push it.

For some reason, the BIOS on this laptop throttles it under load, using trick after trick to stop it taking more than 90w from the arguably inadequate power supply that comes with this machine.

At worst, it can throttle clear down to only 12.5% of its potential.

This 18-page thread:
http://en.community.dell.com/forums/p/19306277/19644660.aspx?PageIndex=18

on the Dell Community site shows that Dell is aware of the problem, and has promised a new BIOS to fix it; but that BIOS has always seemed to be '2 weeks away' ever since before Xmas.

And in this 157-page thread on the independent Notebook Review website:
http://forum.notebookreview.com/showthread.php?t=446193&page=154

those who fear their postings might be moderated out of existence on the Dell site give vent to their feelings, including the well-backed-up view that a 90w power supply will never suffice to allow full rein to the configuration of this laptop.

Which gives rise to the rather weird observation that if you run this laptop on its battery, rather than its mains adaptor, you suddenly get close to its expected performance, and your games stop stuttering, both on screen updates and sound, and you get much better fps.

And despite Dell requiring customer laptops back in order to 'research the problem' (although the next one off the production line would show this generic problem just as well) and not seemingly getting very far, a member of this forum called Unclewebb, who hasn't even got a 1645 (as this configuration is known) has published a program which documents, and ameliorates, the issue.

Using a Kill-A-Watt, as they are known in the States, or the equivalent wattage monitor that Maplins sell, you can see that the machine never pulls more than 90w in its delivered state.

Even if you run this laptop with Dell's 130w adaptor (which Dell are a bit huffy about you doing anyway), it throttles to never draw more than 90w.

And if you run Unclewebb's Throttlestop in monitor mode, you can see how Dell's BIOS is crippling the CPU and GPU to keep the laptop within those limits.

But providing you have the 130w adaptor, you can run the program in active mode, which circumvents the BIOS by restoring the settings every time the BIOS cripples them. The laptop then runs at maximum performance (showing that it can), but draws 110-120w (showing that the higher power is sorely needed). And it doesn't overheat; as Unclewebb observes, the CPU and GPU both have safety features that will limit them internally if they get too hot; and these features aren't seen to kick in.

So, it looks like Dell could yet get this machine right. But rumblings that there will be no recall of the 90w adaptors and issue of the 130w adaptors to customers with this throttled machine, and that Dell will restrict themselves to what they can do within the 90w limit that the very laws of physics show won't ever be enough, are causing frustrated owners to send these machines back, and buy HP Envys and Sony F11s. Both of which, by the way, come with 120w adaptors as standard.

Dell are still selling this configuration, and the reps are silent about the issues. Dell claims they only happen with gaming, are now saying this isn't a gaming machine, and have quietly withdrawn any claims that the 1645 is suitable for gaming from their website.

Trouble is, buy one, and the little manual that comes with it talks about - guess what? - its gaming potential. And Dell can't withdraw all those little books.

As to the returns, the ten pages of 1645s in the Dell Outlet tell this story only too clearly. If you go to pick up a bargain there, though, don't pay any more than you would for the Pentium laptop this runs like, instead of the i7 laptop it purports to be.

Best Regards

Midnight_Voice

 

Mate, you should put this on the Dell forum and make sure that they see it!

 

I'm going to spread that everywhere as well

 

careful they dont ban you on those dell forums ... i posted a bold statement like the one above and they deleted it and most of my other posts and banned me......

 

I hate to defend dell on this, but I haven't seen anything removed that didn't violate there terms of service. Generally they enforce the following.

1. You are not allowed to threaten legal action
2. You are not allowed to swear
3. You can not post emails id's or identify Dell representatives
4. You can not post your order id

Dell is pretty good in leaving criticism as long as it does not include the above.

I am pissed as hell about this throttling issue, and I have stopped recommending Dell laptops to others, and actively telling people to search elsewhere. I'm still looking for good recommendations, as I am not convinced HP is the answer. (they have a poor service record). I think what Dell is doing by throttling is very deceptive, as they sell it as a power laptop. That said, I am only moderately effected because I bought this for my wife who does not game, she uses some CPU intensive stuff, but not much that pushes the GPU at the same time. If I was the primary user this would be going back. I have a feeling this is my last Dell purchase, as I have lost confidence that they will resolve this appropriately.

 

Does anyone have an evidence that Dell is saying this is not a gaming machine? I would love a screenshot or chat room log.

Dell.com.au still states gaming as a use, and I have screen shots to prove it:

http://www.dawnindustry.com/Temp/gaming1.jpg
http://www.dawnindustry.com/Temp/gaming2.jpg

 

Its also says that on the xps 16 design page. with constant mentioning of ultimate performance. Either way dell cant expect people to get/pay for the 4670 and i7 and not expect to use it like it was supposed to be used. Thats just nuts

Other manufacturers dont cheat ppl like this.

 

This isn't the only laptop that has throttling.

As unclewebb posted earlier there are number of laptops with throttling.

What do you think of the theory that DELL is crippling their range of computers so that people will need to upgrade sooner.

Or is it to save money on cheaper lower rated components?

Or both?

Was their big mistake forgetting to throttle on battery on the XPS 16?


MMmmm I smell a rat.

 

as you and unclewebb pointed out, this is not the first laptop they have throttled, they have done it before, and it looks like internally some in Dell may feel they have good reasons. It may be safety reasons. Remember the power adaptor recalls? and battery issues of the past years.

Even if that is the case, this is BS, as the machine was advertised at a speed, not a speed as long as it is not using too much power. (not including battery power saving modes)

 

Ever since someone has said that, i been thinking about the whole latitudes things and how long they been affected. I wonder how many of those oblivious to the throttling jumped ship and bought new laptops in that 18month period or whatever it is. I mean really, without TS its very hard for a normal user to see clock modulation etc.

 

Hi guys im playing Crysis on this machine and when I remove the adapter although my previous test show no thortteling, it lags with the adapter out ?

I dont get it:

Thortteling with adapter in, plays smooth.

No throtteling with battery, play lagging.

Any Ideas ?

 

You didn't set powerplay to max on battery.

 

I think the biggest reason the DELL SXPS 1640 has the throttling issue is because originally it really didn't drain the 90Watt adapter. Before it only operated on the 512Mb GPU and the Core Duo CPU's which probably didn't need more than the 90 Watt. But then when they updated it with the Core i7 + 1GB GPU + RRBLED they didn't consider the fact it would need more power. The big blunder on DeLL's part. The second reason I don't think they want to acknowledge it is because then you can't say as much in regards to it being 'energy efficient'.

Anddd on another note: We've already had this discussion about the DELL SXPS 16 advertised as a gaming laptop. YES: Whether they intended to or not their website has supported it for being used to play games. I would also like to point out though; the word cloud represents USER applications. It doesn't necessarily represent DELL's view on how/what it qualifies/should be used for. Just sayin'.

 

have you went to CCC and powerplay settings, and told it maximum performance on battery. The default is maximum battery life.

Also, did ya decide to keep/return your laptop? sounded like ya decided ona sager perhaps earlier? do tell

 

Look at this Asus
http://www.asus.com/product.aspx?P_ID=ZfpnPRZ5UxVOtrHJ&content=specifications

i7-720 with 90 watt adapter..

It has the 5730 instead of the 4670, but thats what, 5 watt diference?

I havent heard any throttling issues..

Maybe dell can fix it with a bios update after all (despite braking all the laws of physics)

 

I just cant believe that they didnt consider it would need more power.

They knew that it needed more power but designed it to limit power

And I thought the the 1640s core duos also throttled?
Anybody have any info on the 1640s throttling?

I mean the Alienware15 laptop is reported as throttling.

 

I cant believe it got through testing.

fmac the difference is 9 watts between the 4670 and the 5730. But that is interesting, wonder how much the laptop actually pulls. Dell's old adapters at least seemed not to be able to handle the full 90w. Perhaps their 90w adapter can or do more. I think the 1645 is going to pull more power, due to all the features+upgrades etc.

 

It got through testing as this was a design feature

 

I can believe it. Probably one end of the company (not very conscious of the technical aspects like throttling that would be included in the bios) eager to get the i7 core out there didn't even really test it and there you have it.

Yes, I do believe the XPS 1640 has experienced throttling, but it is likely that that the initial machine's specs didn't need more than the 90 Watt power supply. I could be wrong of course; I'd have to test it to be sure.

And honestly the throttling isn't a bad design feature. It keeps us from drawing possibly too much power and blowing up the machine and only drawing the maximum amount of needed wattage. The biggest problem here is the bios don't let it draw the needed wattage.

 

Remember there are a lot of differences, Harddrive is probably different, Screen might be a lower power screen.

Also 90watts from the wall is kinda odd from a 90 watt adapter, it should be 90watts output and use about 110-120 from the wall. But with the heat of the adapters it's doubtful that they can pull much more then the 90 they are limited to.

And also, I'm waiting to get some proof that it doesn't throttle, if it doesn't I might get it.

 

The XPS 1640 with a Core 2 Duo definitely throttles. I've seen user log files while gaming when the multiplier drops to 6.0 and then (SLFM) super low frequency mode is turned on which cuts the BCLK speed in half so you are left with an effective multiplier of only 3.0. A 2400 MHz laptop is running at 800 MHz when this happens and gaming performance goes in the toilet. If you're lucky, it won't also turn on clock modulation like many Dell products do.

Some Asus products with Core i7 CPUs already have throttling issues. Multiplier drops to 7.0 are not good to see.

http://forum.notebookreview.com/showthread.php?t=452784&page=7

Their decision to follow Dell and start using a 90 watt adapter instead of the 120 watt adapter that they've been using looks like a dumb business decision to me.

 

How do I set the batteyr option in the catalyst control centre ? Couldnt find it.

@atl: Decided to send it back, like you said even if its right for what I want it to do, im still not gettin what I payed for. Might as well have bought a cheaper model. The sager is tempting although to expensive might save up a little long and get it. Do you reccommend the sager, or the new ASUS? if yo u need models ill get links.

 

in CCC when your first open it up. Theres a graphics tab at the top left. click on it and it will drop down a list. At the bottom is powerplay. In power play is the settings.

If the hp didnt drop the prices of the envy's from 1800 i was planning on a asus laptop. Or holding out til something else comes out. Was even going to settle for the i5's etc. I really think though, if ya can get pretty much any i5-i7 laptop with the 5000 series ati cards you cant really go wrong. Ill tell you, its very nice knowing that now and in the future the laptop you have isnt being throttled by design.

The sony had some laptops everyone was looking at earlier may be a direction to look

 

Nice one I was looking top right!! It wasnt on performance settings so thats probably why.

Ill PM you with sager, tell me what you think.

 

Well, Dell did up it from a 6-cell to a 9-cell battery, which says something about the power they expected it to draw. And even the 90w adaptor is a higher rating than the 65w one that sufficed (or was supposed to have sufficed) for earlier models.

Maybe the delay is while they design and build the 13-cell battery this l'il sucker is going to merit if they agree it needs a 130w adaptor?

 

Question: I am a bit confused. People are saying the BIOS limits the computer to draw a max of 90W regardless of what power supply is used, but using throttlestop corrects CPU throttling and allows the computer to pull more than 90w? (tests said 110-120w ish)? Doesn't that fix the problem? Why is this still an issue? Or is it the principle that dell is selling a flawed system?

On another note, if it is truly the BIOS that are the issue. The BIOS are not made by Dell I do not think. If you look in your BIOS screen is says they are made by phoenix, which is one of a few BIOS companies? I am aware they may be under some NDA agreement, but has anyone tried contacting them to find a solution?

 

I asked a similar question about TS, the short answer is that no one should ave to open up TS every time you want to play a game or do something CPU +GPU demanding. Plus TS isnt flawless.

 

No offence meant by the last comment its far more than I could EVER do in two life times.

 

Perdire, I'm sure you only sound like a shill for Dell because you are bending over backwards to be fair; but that's an uncomfortable position, and I think you may be bending too far.

As regards the above, you need to consider a couple of things or three.

Firstly, have you heard of any 1645s blowing up on battery? Because we know it doesn't throttle, or hardly throttles, on that; anyway, much freer power draw than on adaptor.

Secondly, the 1645 will only ever draw the needed wattage; this is determined by the CPU and GPU used, and so on, and these have their own safety features built in. And we know that 1645s using Throttlestop don't blow up; they don't even overheat.

But what would blow up, probably, with an unfettered 1645, is that inadequate 90w adaptor. Now, I've heard of 'spoiling the ship for a ha'porth of tar' (ha'porth = half a (UK) penny's worth, or about one US cent's worth) which is what Dell is doing.

But more than that, they are spoiling the ship to protect the ha'porth of tar. Which is just dumb.

 

Not the first time this was mentioned about Perdire!!!

 

I mean DELL must have staff registered in all the main forums.


Its just a matter of finding out who they are.

 

I have now.

My 1645 is probably going back anyway; I'll start the process as soon as I get back to the UK on Monday and make sure I can get a Sony Vaio F11 reasonably quickly, as all this has gone far beyond a joke now.

The 1645 has sat on my desk for two whole months [1], unused; I declined to make the investment in moving all my stuff over from this Tosh Equium A100 until I was sure Dell could fix the 1645. And I'm still waiting.

So here I am still using this Tosh in Canada instead of drawing oohs and aahs with the 1645. (Assuming it would draw oohs and aahs, and not just derisive laughter.)

I'm copacetic about Dell canning me from their forum, though. And I think I've been restrained enough not to give them the opportunity. But if they do, that 1645 is going back so fast there will be scorch marks on the outer packaging - oh :yes:

[1] 21 days is just if it's perfectly acceptable, and you merely decide you don't like it.
But if it's faulty, or flawed, or has a design fault such that it's not as described, which certainly applies to the 1645, you have ages - certainly a few months, if not even longer. Especially if, like me, you sent Dell an email explaining that you weren't satisfied, but you'd give them a reasonable time to come up with a fix.

An email the recipients haven't even had the courtesy to acknowledge, which I asked them to do; though the out-of-office I got back from my sales rep will at least prevent them claiming they never got my email...

 

Honestly, are you serious? Or are you trying to be the devils advocate? Not a bad design feature? Go back, reread all the pages on this issue and and try and find one statement from Dell saying why their bios does this. Dell "Todd" gets on here and makes excuses and empty promises about a fix coming, but has he once said why this feature was designed into the bios. This wasn't a mistake (its a mistake it was so noticeable) or a flaw. Dell did this for a reason. This has no practical use but to save Dell money on the front end(cheaper adapters) and make Dell more money on the back end (this machine will be obsolete sooner). People have payed a good chunk of change for an XPS and expect it to perform as advertised. Its bad enough to feel like you got robbed for a couple of grand. Its worse for people like you to come on here and say this "isn't a bad design". If at any point Dell had given a reason (a bad one for that matter) for this feature being present in their laptops, I could say you have a point. Do you know something that we don't? Or are you blindly defending Dell as you wait in line to buy a Toyota?

 

midnight i have a feeling the dell rep is going to regret taking your phone call. I cant believe ya have barely touched it as well.

Saw your post in the forums. Very good. Actually just read that whole spiel very nicely put. Better then anything i could of written

 

Hmmm, no comment.

ThrottleStop is a band aid. The only solution is a bios that does not do any throttling and an adapter of 130 watts or greater that allows these laptops to run at full speed without being choked to death.

ThrottleStop is going in and mopping up the throttling mess after the fact. It makes these laptops usable but this laptop would be even better yet if it was designed correctly in the first place. Wasting CPU cycles to fight against the Dell bios is just that; a waste of the computer processing power that users paid for.

 

I don't think Perdire is one. He's somebody young and idealistic, who hasn't yet had the time or the situations to become cynical like the rest of us.

But his learning experience starts here

 

It's ok. Just look for the ignore button in your CP. I think of it as a Dell suckup filter.

 

Questions and Answers

Talked to the Dell India rep last night, and again today this morning. According to them, A06 was the one supposed to fix the throttling issue. As you all have clearly documented, it has NOT done that. So I'm sticking with A01 right now which is working just fine, considering the circumstances.

Funny thing is, Dell India say that A06 was the magic BIOS that was supposed to fix the throttling. That is contrary to what you guys say Dell is saying right now.

The rep I spoke with finally acknowledged that I may actually have a real problem. He is having a supervisor call me back. I'm gonna ask to
1. Extend my return window by a month
2. Get me a 130W adapter

What is the general consensus on the A06. Does it improve anything? At all? Opinions using the 90W adapter would be useful.

Thanks

EDIT: Supervisor called me back, said he'd extend my return window to March, and is shipping me the 130W adapter Finally, one helpful guy at Dell India

 

I think the A06 bios was a fix for the iphone syncing issues. Which if is the case, thats another issue for those that need that. As A06 also has been reported with more aggressive throttling.

But if that was the magic bios fix or not. Dell seems undecided as usual, with a slight lean to no. If you wish save yourself some time and phone minutes, consult the magic 8 ball as the experience is probably to similar

bottomline A06 seemed worse as its more aggressive and throttlestop may have harder time countering it. Although it may throttle less in general perhaps? not sure we got actual world results on that. The ones that have spoken are sticking/reverted back with A03 thus for i believe.

 

Ffs..very often I need to reboot the 1645 before the boost works again..it's now again stuck on 900mhz in-game!!!!! without throttling
During superpi it also stays at 900mhz!! WTH IS WRONG WITH THIS LAPTOP!?!?!

 

DuranXL: I think Dell installed new type of CPU in you laptop with Intel Throttle Boost Technology

 

Ehm..what are you saying?
I know about the boost tech, but half of the time it just doesn't kick in:
(see: http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/4365/superpie.png)

It's not throttling because the GPU isn't even in use and i'm also using an external monitor.
The CPU just holds at 1000mhz and doesn't go back up until I reboot