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    S-XPS 1645 Throttling Info. and Updates

    Discussion in 'Dell XPS and Studio XPS' started by atlstang, Dec 27, 2009.

  1. quietCat

    quietCat Notebook Consultant

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    The 1640, 1645, 1647 along with all the other computer models that throttle are Energy Star 5.0 complient.

    A throttling computer uses less energy and energy efficiency is what Energy Star is all about.

    Is it a coincidence? :D

    Check out the list.

    http://www.eu-energystar.org/en/database.htm
     
  2. Perdire

    Perdire Notebook Consultant

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    Lol. I'm not really surprised. I suggested the idea over a month ago. That isn't what matters though. What matters is getting the machine to run at its optimal level.
     
  3. famx

    famx Notebook Consultant

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    ...Ok, but have you tried running laptop only with power adapter without battery inside for few hours and then switch to battery alone?
     
  4. DuranXL

    DuranXL Notebook Evangelist

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    Please any word on the issue where it will not go above 1ghz until you reboot? I still have the issue on A07 + 130W adapter and it SUCKS
     
  5. Perdire

    Perdire Notebook Consultant

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    Um. What are you using to document, and have you called DELL reps to see if there are any other issues causing this problem? What is your power management settings at too? Would you say it operates faster on battery?

    If you are still experiencing poor performance it wouldn't be due to the throttling issue if you are using the 130W adapter + A07 BIOS so it must be something else. Anyone else have any advice?
     
  6. quietCat

    quietCat Notebook Consultant

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    Sorry Perdire, you are wrong to say that throttling cannot occur with A07 and 130 Watt.
     
  7. quietCat

    quietCat Notebook Consultant

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    How can the fact that Dell are limiting the power/throttling not matter?????
     
  8. Perdire

    Perdire Notebook Consultant

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    Yeah. . . but I'm fairly certain its safe to ascertain that it wouldn't be causing that much throttling as he is experiencing. (At least due to it being underpowered.) *sigh* We need at least more information to go on to really know what's causing the issue.
     
  9. Perdire

    Perdire Notebook Consultant

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    You misunderstand me again. The issue isn't why DELL was/is limiting the power and throttling the machine. The issue is to get them to STOP.

    Pointless speculation and debate doesn't get us anywhere. We either need to make a case by (1 documenting the issue or (2 resigning ourselves from being further involved with the brand/product because of said issue and returning it on that basis to make a statement.
     
  10. error-id10t

    error-id10t Notebook Consultant

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    The thing with this is that it doesn't appear to be correct. Neither 1645 or 1647* has discrete GPU as supposedly shown by EU list (*can't use it), while the US list shows the 1645 with a Core2 Duo.

    Funny the 1647 supposedly draws more power in sleep-mode.

    Lastly and maybe I'm just missing it, this is Typical Energy Consumption which seems to be calculated with Sleep and Idle (doesn't list peak). So just because it may require more power at peak (which we know it does), it may not impact the overall score...who knows.
     
  11. error-id10t

    error-id10t Notebook Consultant

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    But how much more evidence or data can the users give besides what's already been proven?

    The fact that 1647 needs 130W adapter and I bet it's a copy/paste job of the BIOS power allowance proves it further (both systems appear to have the same 5-star config allowance, same mobo, same GPU etc, so why wouldn't they just copy it).

    For fun I connected the laptop to the TV via HDMI yesterday and kicked off Prime+furmark. Got it to stay at 12 multi until I moved my mouse - when I stopped moving it, it climbed back up. That's better than with PowerPlay off (clocks: 400/800) and 66% brightness with RGB screen.
     
  12. quietCat

    quietCat Notebook Consultant

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    That sounds logical, and thats what I thought initially , but you have to consider the following ........

    At "idle"" and "sleep" mode the most power used is usually from the Power Supply Unit and the internal Voltage Regulation in the PC which divides up the power in the computer.
    Also the CPU, GPU and other component use power.

    The formula for Etec( typical energy consumption at max power configuration ie 8gb ram RGB screen i7 820 etc.. ) which is used to asses if Energy Star compliant is based on "idle" and "sleep" power consumption.

    For the laptop to be Energy Star 5.0 complient the Power Supply must be also Energy Star Compliant but from data with killawatt , temp readings and anecdotal evidence from the users this comes into question unless......



    Let's consider for the moment that the PSU is Energy Star complient.I'm not sure how reliable the Energy Star rating is also.

    Generally psu's are not very energy efficient below 20 percent max load and alot have best energy efficiency around 50 percent dropping as load decreases.

    Therefore a 130 watt PSU is going to use more energy than a 90 watt power supply at a given low load ( ie during idle and sleep modes)because the 130 watt power supply is providing lower percentage of its max watts at a given low load compared to the 90watt at the same load.

    For example 1645 has idle wattage of 18.9 watts at max power configuration from Energy star tests ie 8 gb ram i7 820, RGB etc...

    which is 21 percent max load for 90 watt

    and is 14.5 percent max load for 130 watt

    If anybody can find the graph of efficiency vs load for both the dell 90 watt and 130 watt adapters it would be of great help.
    or maybe somebody could do some testing with killawat to find out roughly the "idle " and "sleep" with 130 watt and 90 watt using say all the bios if possible before A07 and then bios A07


    That's one very good reason to use a 90watt power supply to reduce power consumption at idle and sleep but has nasty effect of heat if pushed closer to/ past its 90 watt rating.



    If we now look at the CPU we see that it can be in several different idle states....C0 C1, C2 etc

    With these higher C states corresponding to lower power consumption.

    The default idle state can be set on the CPU through the BIOS.

    Are Dell "overly forcing" the CPU into these higher idle states to pass the Energy Star test with the effect that it cant recover properly all the time when it needs more power ??





    But this recovery problem is nothing when compared to the fact that when a 90 watt is supplied, full power can never be reached as more than 90 watts is needed and DELL use the BIOS to limit the power to a value they will not tell us, which may be over the 90 watt this adapter is rated for and thus why the excess heat.

    And why would you want to be Energy Star complient?....thats a very interesting question :)


    Just to add if relevant
    If the PSU is substandard and not truly Energy Star Complient this "forcing of the CPU state during idle"could also be used to lower the draw on the already inneficient PSU thus lowering the "idle" power consumption.
     
  13. DuranXL

    DuranXL Notebook Evangelist

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    I've posted this issue before inclusing screenshots..but this thread is spammed so quickly that posts get lost very soon.
    My CPU will not go beyond 1ghz (usually) after returning from hibernation.
    With no apps running I launch superpi 1M and it will stick at 1ghz, even on 1 thread. I play GTA4, it sticks to 1ghz. No matter what I do..it sticks to 1ghz.
    Then I reboot and it's fixed. During superpi it goes 2-2.8ghz and time is ~15s.

    Bill replied to my post with something like "an error has been found in the algorithm blabla of the cpu when returning to default speeds".. and that it would be fixed in the upcoming firmware (at the time a03 was newest).
     
  14. Mitchell2.24v

    Mitchell2.24v Notebook Evangelist

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    I just tested this on wired power (battery = dead, so cannot test that).

    Ran SuperPi 1.5 calc 1M = ~20s
    Hibernate
    Resume
    Ran SuperPi again 1M = ~18s.

    I was running a lot of apps as I'm at work, so the results should be better when not running anything else...

    But no sticking multi here. Will try again later with a cleanly rebooted system.
     
  15. DuranXL

    DuranXL Notebook Evangelist

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    It doesnt happen right after resuming..sometimes it takes a while

    Here:
    http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/4365/superpie.png
     
  16. Mitchell2.24v

    Mitchell2.24v Notebook Evangelist

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  17. Perdire

    Perdire Notebook Consultant

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    *shrugs* I don't make the rules. From what I understand though, Dell Bill was supposed to be bringing the throttling issues of both the 1640 and 1647 to the engineers, although he never gave a guaranteed time-frame. But that was still beside the point, either harass DELL and document everything until you get your fix or walk away out of protest. 'Cause what I was getting at was figuring out the reason they did it, or getting into discussions about it, doesn't help.

    And I'll leave the technical stuff to our other friends. . . It sounds like if it isn't thermal, or something is wrong with the hardware, the BIOS are to blame(?). Otherwise I guess its some cocky setting. <_<
     
  18. Fusel Wusel

    Fusel Wusel Notebook Consultant

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    I received my 1645 with i7 Q820 some days ago after my sales rep told me, the throttling problem was solved. Well, it is not. Got A07 already loaded. But while stressing the xps multi goes down to 9, so I think that is throttling, am I right?

    And my sales rep told me, that 130W adapter would not be usable with this machine. Seems like I have to call them, to get a 130W adapter afterwards. (btw. I am from Germany)
    Am I right, that all technical services got note of this topic, so that they send out 130W adapters?
     
  19. Perdire

    Perdire Notebook Consultant

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    Fusel Wusel, until you get the 130W adapter your computer will continue to throttle due to it being underpowered even with the a A07 BIOS. (Otherwise your 90W adapter would blow up.) So, what you need to do is get ahold of one of their 130W adapters.

    Technically, they are all supposed to have been given some sort of notification on the issue and send you a 130W adapter upon request after the delivery of the machine. If you can't get the rep to send you one, either ask to talk to his manager or try calling again. Sadly, its a bit hit and miss because not all the reps read the notices like they are supposed to. If you are unable to get one no matter what you try, then I suggest contacting Bill via pm. (You will need a minimal amount twenty posts first though before you can pm.)
     
  20. unclewebb

    unclewebb ThrottleStop Author

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    Toggle1FC
    http://www.sendspace.com/file/07d762

    [​IMG]

    The guys over on the Asus G51J forum have found an interesting bit in the CPU. By disabling this bit in their Core i7 CPUs, they don't have any throttling anymore of their GPU when it hits about 80C.

    They are using Nvidia GPUs but I'm not sure if that will make a difference. This little trick is allowing them to draw some BIG power numbers out of their 120 watt adapters so be careful when testing.

    When the box in this new tool is cleared, it's open season for the Asus guys. No more throttling but their GPU can hit 100C so keep an eye on your temperatures when playing. :)

    If this trick is useful for more than just Asus owners then I will likely add it to ThrottleStop.
     
  21. XmDXtReMeK

    XmDXtReMeK Notebook Consultant

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    Say your adapter is overheating and you are concerned for the fire hazard it may cause. They will replace it right away.
     
  22. DuranXL

    DuranXL Notebook Evangelist

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    What does their CPU have to do with their GPU hitting 80c? My 4670 downclocks when it hits 84c (and it does when the LCD is open)
     
  23. Asherek

    Asherek Notebook Consultant

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    It's quite possible the GPU throttling is occuring at the CPU level itself, some sort of safeguard that is auto-throttling the GPU due to heat reasons based on a threshold of around 80-84C.
     
  24. unclewebb

    unclewebb ThrottleStop Author

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    When this bit in the Core i7 is set in the Asus G51 laptop, they throttle. When this bit is cleared, they don't throttle the GPU any more. I don't know why this happens but I thought it's a very interesting discovery. Intel does not publicly document this bit so I can't say for sure what it actually controls or whether the bios sets it or what.

    When you first start up Toggle1FC, is the box checked or cleared? If it is cleared then I guess this is not the method that Dell uses. If it is checked then it would be worth unchecking it and see if the GPU throttling issue can be controlled with this.
     
  25. DuranXL

    DuranXL Notebook Evangelist

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    It is checked when I open it for the first time.
    The way I see it, the GPU just gets too hot..and it downlocks. If you see my posts in the 1645 heat thread it's pretty obvious. I don't see how the CPU has any affect on this.

    But..i'll try unchecking it and see what happens. BRB

    edit: i can't get it above 80c atm because it's on my stand and im too lazy to unplug all my stuff..maybe later
     
  26. danp224

    danp224 Notebook Evangelist

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    Yeah, it's checked.

    I did un-check it and run it through FurMark, and Prime 95, small fft's.

    It still does Throttle at 84c.

    No Change.
     
  27. unclewebb

    unclewebb ThrottleStop Author

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    danp224: Is your GPU throttling or just your CPU?

    If this new trick can be used to get rid of GPU throttling then ThrottleStop can be used to help reduce the CPU throttling that you are seeing.

    GPUs are designed to run at over 100C before down clocking. Any down clocking before this is being done by the bios. It would be nice to find an option for users so they can decide if they want to turn this "feature" off.

    The Asus guys can run with the GPU at over 90C with no throttling of either the CPU or GPU. It would be nice if Dell set their design goals a little higher than barely adequate.

    http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q228/HoldFire/1fc-3.jpg

    A multiplier of 19.84 on the hardest working core is something to be proud of.
     
  28. danp224

    danp224 Notebook Evangelist

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    Sorry,

    I was seeing GPU throttling. As soon as the temp hit 84C, poof: Throttling.

    A.07 Bios, 130 Watt PSU, RGBLED, 720QM.

    Hope this helps...
     
  29. DuranXL

    DuranXL Notebook Evangelist

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  30. thalanix

    thalanix Notebook Deity

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    363 pages and i've only look over the last 10, so correct me if i'm wrong.

    - the throttling you guys are seeing is a cycle. it hits 84c, clocks drop, temp goes down, clock goes up, hits 84, repeat.
    - CPU has no effect.
    - the 4670 is a 35W card.
    - the PSU is 90W.

    and the throttling occurs when furmark is blazing away? any power reading (from the wall or estimated) before/during/after the throttling?
     
  31. cbaty08

    cbaty08 Notebook Evangelist

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    I have updated Bios and am using the 130watt AC and reached 86C yesterday playing Bioshock2...
     
  32. unclewebb

    unclewebb ThrottleStop Author

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    Is that a CPU or GPU temperature and was either of these throttling while you were playing?
     
  33. cbaty08

    cbaty08 Notebook Evangelist

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    Gameplay seemed to be flawless and that was CPU temp..... Honestly I am a noob in areas of such; I wouldn't know the first piece of software to use to determine this either!
     
  34. unclewebb

    unclewebb ThrottleStop Author

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    Just head back about 363 pages in this thread and start reading and you won't be a noob for too long. :D

    GPU throttling when the GPU temperature goes over 80C or so is still a problem for some XPS 1645 users. You can use the GPU-Z program to log the speed of your GPU to check for this when gaming.

    It's great to hear that your computer is running up to your expectations.
     
  35. JKleiss

    JKleiss Notebook Evangelist

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    I was running furmark and prime95 with throttlestop disabled but with gpu overclocked via rivertuner and the gpu temp got to 95C(cpu was bout 85C). Automatic shut down at about 95C-96C gpu temp. Windows problem report said automtic shutdown due to graphicss card overheating.

    So.. either gpu couldn't throttle due to rivertuner or cpu couldnt throttle the gpu bcoz of river tuner. Im unsure if the cpus ability to throttle the gpu(if it actualy has the ability) would be affected by rivertuner, but if not then it would lead to the theory that the gpu has its own throttling mechanisism and isnt throttled by the cpu. Just a some of my thoughts...probably wrong..

    but atleast i figured out the point at which the gpu temp will shutdown the system... :eek:
     
  36. gstboy

    gstboy Notebook Evangelist

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    My gpu-z logs never shows throttling as I have the speeds locked in rivatuner. But I still notice throttling in games when the temp increases past 80. gpu-z logs shows the speeds never drop during gameplay and TS shows my multi at a steady 13 so I'm wondering what is causing my game to start stuttering.

    Do you think something may be downclocking the gpu or cpu after ts or gpu-z logs the speeds or is that even possible?
     
  37. khaledseif

    khaledseif Notebook Evangelist

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    That is exactly why you shouldn't allow Throttlestop and Rivatuner without understanding the limitation of the system, you could have easily burned the GPU.
    Of course both the CPU and the GPU have a throttling algorithms, and both of them must throttle at max at the design temperature.
     
  38. error-id10t

    error-id10t Notebook Consultant

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    Nobody really knew the limitations besides the ones Dell introduced.

    At least we now know when either the CPU and GPU will shutdown the computer due to tempts .. I think that was good and more than I'd dare to do :)
     
  39. JKleiss

    JKleiss Notebook Evangelist

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    Thanks, i guess im not that stoopid after all
     
  40. unclewebb

    unclewebb ThrottleStop Author

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    Maybe the drop in frame rates is simply that your GPU isn't powerful enough to play the game at the resolution settings you are using.

    When gaming your multiplier should be higher than 13.0. I assume that's with the 130 watt adapter and the A07 bios.

    The Intel shut down temperature isn't until 125C and most GPUs don't shut down until after 100C. Thanks JKleiss for finding Dell's limit.
     
  41. rboxman

    rboxman Notebook Enthusiast

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    125C seems really high -- where are you finding that information by chance? According to Intel's doc here for an i5 520M ( http://processorfinder.intel.com/details.aspx?sSpec=SLBNB) the spec is only 105C, and that's with a 32nm design. (Search other chips: http://processorfinder.intel.com/List.aspx?ProcFam=3223)

    AMD does not have such information that I could find.
     
  42. unclewebb

    unclewebb ThrottleStop Author

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    It's Intel tradition to set the thermal shut down temperature approximately 25C higher than the thermal throttling temperature. The throttling temperature is usually 100C or 105C so the shut down temperature will be either 125C or 130C. :eek:

    The 45nm Core i7 are listed to have a maximum junction temperature of 100C while some of the new Dual Cores are set to 105C. Most of the previous 45nm Core 2 Duo mobile CPUs also had a throttling temperature of 105C. These numbers are approximations and there is some unknown amount of error in these sensors so there will be slight variations from core to core or from one CPU to the next with the same model number.

    Intel has always built a little bit of wiggle room into their designs so if there is a serious problem, you will still have some time to save your work and shut your computer down before the CPU reaches the thermal shut down temperature which is officially known as THERMTRIP#. When the DTS number counts down to zero, that's known as PROCHOT#.

    Intel® Core™ i7-900 Mobile Processor Extreme Edition Series,
    Intel® Core™ i7-800 and i7-700 Mobile Processor Series Datasheet
    Volume 1

    6.8 Error and Thermal Protection

    http://www.intel.com/products/processor/corei7/mobile/techdocs.htm

    [​IMG]

    Any bios that shuts a CPU down before these levels might be doing your lap a favor but they are not following the Intel guidelines. These CPUs are quite capable of looking after themselves.
     
  43. rboxman

    rboxman Notebook Enthusiast

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    Wow, thanks uncle -- I didn't come across that when i was searching -- thanks!
     
  44. Fusel Wusel

    Fusel Wusel Notebook Consultant

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    Thanks for your help! Yes, well, when I have playced my order like 10 days ago, I explicitly asked for a 130W instead of the 90W. But they told me technicians said it wouldn't work and throttling would not occur anymore. So then I am giving them a call today.

    Yes, this little thing is getting extremely hot! :eek:
     
  45. gstboy

    gstboy Notebook Evangelist

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    Could be but the game plays flawlessly for a while at those settings until it gets to a certain heat, in my case 80*. I did a test and turned on my AC and put my laptop in front of it while gaming. lo and behold, was able to play mw2 1080p almost max settings with no noticeable lag and gpu only got to 76*.

    Here's my ts log from that session.

    Code:
    DATE     TIME    MULTI   C0%   CKMOD  CHIPM  DTS
    03/01/10 18:28:19  18.06   10.5  100.0  100.0   45
    03/01/10 18:28:20  17.01   12.7  100.0  100.0   44
    03/01/10 18:28:21  16.23   12.1  100.0  100.0   45
    03/01/10 18:28:22  16.79   11.6  100.0  100.0   44
    03/01/10 18:28:23  17.35   11.6  100.0  100.0   44
    03/01/10 18:28:24  16.28   11.0  100.0  100.0   45
    03/01/10 18:28:26  17.18   11.5  100.0  100.0   45
    03/01/10 18:28:27  16.55   12.5  100.0  100.0   45
    03/01/10 18:28:28  15.06   12.0  100.0  100.0   42
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  46. phongoli0

    phongoli0 Notebook Guru

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    what is the model number of the replacement 130-watt adapter that they are sending, and is there a 150 -watt model? also how much bigger is that 130-watt compared to the original 90-watt
     
  47. Hillie

    Hillie Notebook Enthusiast

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    PA-3E 90W = 145mm x 70mm x 18mm and the weight is 260g
    PA-4E 130W = 155mm x 75mm x 25mm and the weight is 464g

    The PA-4E is the slim line AC Adapter and the replacement unit they sent myself. Other Forum members have reported receiving an older model AC Adapter and much larger 'brick'. I think the model number for the brick might be PA-13. Not sure of the 150W Adapter specs or availability as a replacement unit.
     
  48. Fusel Wusel

    Fusel Wusel Notebook Consultant

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    I just called the german Dell Support and told them about my problem. They instantly knew about it and I was told I should receive a new 130W not later than two days dependent on UPS.
    Thats what I call great and fast service! :)
     
  49. famx

    famx Notebook Consultant

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    Until vent gets redesign or move all together to different location throttling will always be there.

    Latest bios A07 has little or no effect on throttling, just play any intensive graphic application for at least 30 minutes and you will see for yourself.
    The only reason 130w adapter was put in place because previous 90w adapter was overheating and it was not sufficient for XPS 1645. :(
     
  50. unclewebb

    unclewebb ThrottleStop Author

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    Thanks quietCat for all of your research. Good work.

    That should make it easier for users to understand the true motivation behind Dell's various throttling schemes that they have been using for at least the last 18 months since the introduction of the Latitude E6x00 series.
     
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