XPS 15 (Haswell) Owner's Lounge

Disable driver signing and you can install the Synaptics driver. I ended up liking the Dell driver the best, even if it is lacking certain features.

How to Disable Driver Signature Verification on 64-Bit Windows 8.1 (So That You Can Install Unsigned Drivers)

 

Interesting development in the effort to fix scaling problems on Windows hidpi displays. I posted before about a new manifest hack that people are using to force Adobe apps to obey Windows scaling settings. This makes Adobe apps far more usable, even if it doesn't make them genuinely hidpi aware. It now appears that the same method can be applied to any program with scaling issues. If the program tells Windows not to scale, but it doesn't look right unscaled, tiny UI, etc, you can force it to allow Windows scaling.

What you do is, extract the application's manifest with a special program, alter the manifest to allow windows scaling and then save it as a text file in the application's install directory. Then change the registry to allow external manifest files. I'm trying it on all my "tiny-interface" problem apps. Definitely worth a shot if you are dealing with software that doesn't scale correctly.

Details are here. The last comment has the new method to apply the manifest hack to any program:

Hack makes Photoshop and Illustrator readable on Surface Pro

 

Can someone give me a Hardware ID on the 1080p version screen? You can get it by going into Device Manager > Monitors > Generic PnP Monitor > Properties > Details > Hardware Ids. Will rep

 

I wrote that post Hope for the best, although you may still run into odd glitches. I got Capture One working with it, except the optional Viewer window will randomly disappear off the screen when switching focus.

The best thing is to send feedback to the app developers so they know these problems exist.

 

I ordered the top spec one on 12/12 and it's shipped. Quick synapsis. I called 1/21 as the website said it was still in production but suppose to arrive 1/24. After getting transferred to multiple people I finally talked to someone. She said panels were arriving this past weekend and will overnight it because of the delay. When I checked online during the weekend it showed a delay to 2/24. This pissed me off but apparently their system is all screwed up. I should get it tomorrow. I have a question.
-The laptop shipped from chicago and set to arrive in MN. It will have been in temps below 0 for a good duration of it's journey. Is there any concern with damage from the extreme cold to any part of the laptop?

Thanks for the help,
jesse

 

does anyone know why this is happening or have any recommendations?

 

I seriously doubt it. First of all, the temperature of the laptop inside all of its packaging and shipping material (not to mention being inside the shipping facility/vehicle itself) means it likely won't be anywhere near outdoor temperature. And second, I've never heard of components having problems with being too cold. Extreme overclockers dump liquid nitrogen onto processors to achieve insanely high speeds, and that's WAAAY colder than 0. The only possible concern is that elements become more brittle the colder they get (if you've ever dipped something into liquid nitrogen and then dropped it on the floor to see it shatter, you know what I mean), so TECHNICALLY the laptop would be slightly more susceptible to impact damage when it's cold. But the liquid nitrogen example is a way more extreme example than the difference between room temperature and 0, and even this case assumes some incident that could cause damage in the first place, so I don't think you'll have any problem whatsoever.

Keep in mind that yours will hardly be the first piece of electronics ever to have been delivered when it's very cold outside. Imagine other countries where these temperatures occur far more regularly and through a much larger portion of the year. If that were a risk, the shipping companies would have already figured out how to manage it.

 

No!!! I had the same exact original order date. I decided to cancel and settle for the mid tier purchased locally. The hard drive crashed the same day so I took it back. What you are saying means I could have had my top tier computer only a week late! I much prefer the SSD. I've looked around and can't find much else I like so I'll probably order again. They just changed the estimated ship date from March 24th to March 11th so things are moving. I just hope they get the quality control issues worked out. Wish I could help you on the cold but I have no idea.

 

I also live in MN (Mahtomedi), mine left the Memphis TN FedEx hub on 1/20 and arrived on 1/22. It was a very cold machine when I got it, I just let it sit in the box and warm to room temp, no issues that I have seen. IMO they would not ship anything that could be damaged by cold in the manner they do....cargo holds on most planes are neither pressurized or heated, and most delivery trucks are not heated.

 

Cold itself isn't an issue, BUT condensation is. If you unpack it and condensation forms on the screen (i.e. if the screen 'fogs' up) then do NOT power it up till it warms up to room temperature - it's very likely that the same condensation is forming inside the lappy as well, and you don't want to run power thru wet components.

It's unlikely that your home/office is humid enough to cause a problem though, so I wouldn't worry about it unless you see the screen fog up. If no fog forms then you're safe to power it up.

 

When you do a clean install does that mean you bought a copy of windows 8.1 and installed it clean on the computer while deleting all the bloatware? I'm looking to do the same but I'd like to know if there is any page or site of reference for the steps needed to have a clean install while having all the important-only drivers re-installed? Like the Synaptics trackpad software and NOT the one by Dell as I've read on this forum etc.....

It would be great to have a checklist of everything needed to get a fresh install of 8.1

Thanks!

 

I did happen to buy the Win8.1 Pro Pack because I wanted 8.1 Pro rather than 8.1 Core that came with the system, but you certainly don't have to buy another copy of Windows just to do a clean install. You do need a USB flash drive to use as a Windows installer though, which you can either get for free from Dell by calling their support or make yourself if you can find a Win8.1 ISO. From there, in the installer I just chose Clean Install, deleted every existing partition on the hard drive, and then clicked Next when the entire hard drive was just unallocated space.

Your driver checklist is right on the support.dell.com page under Get Drivers. You'll want pretty much everything there EXCEPT the driver CAB file. You may not need other things depending on which spec of the system you have and what you want. For example, obviously the various firmware updates only apply if you have the corresponding hardware. Intel Rapid Start and Smart Connect are optional. The SMB to USB LAN dongle doesn't apply unless you have the Dell USB network dongle. Some drivers you may prefer to get directly from the vendor rather than Dell, like the Synaptics drivers or NVIDIA drivers, but this too is optional. The only important note is that you must install the Intel Management Engine driver before installing the NXP (aka NFC) driver.

How to clean install Windows is sort of outside the scope of a thread dedicated to particulars of the XPS 15 Haswell system, though, so let's try to avoid unnecessarily making this thread longer than it already is with off-topic stuff.

 

Okay, just in case any of you know any way to haggle the price down or of any discounts (besides the student discount), please let me know. I'm most definitely buying it sometime this week.

 

Thanks for the reply. You see, there is no way I would've known that not installing Intel Management Engine BEFORE the NXP was important. I think I'll buy 8.1 pro and start from scratch. Is it OK to pm if I need any help? Thanks!

 

You get an error message on the NFC installer as long as you click View Details.

Don't buy 8.1 Pro if you already have 8.1 Core, that's a waste of money. Just buy the Pro Pack. I've written about it earlier, but it's nothing like having to install the Core OS and then install a new OS as an upgrade. And yes, feel free to PM. Good luck!

 

jphughan! Post #666 for you. I guess it's true what they say about you. You are the devil!

Speaking of private messages, how do you send one? I don't seem to have the power as yet. Perhaps this is something that is only enabled by the mods once you've reached a certain number of regular posts?

 

Can't speak to that, but do you know what model you want to buy and would you happen to have a Discover Card?

 

Finally caught up on the thread since my last appearance, had the machine for about 3 weeks now and no major dramas (Dell promptly replaced my Screen after Dead Pixels/Dust was present, 1st Replacement the Tech broke the Touch digitalizer, but on the 2nd everything is perfect).

Hoping JPH will be able to assist with this as I believe we have similar setups at work - I've currently come from a Latitude 6230 with a proper Port Replicator Dock (God I didn't realize how much I'd miss it!), with two monitors attached (was previously VGA + DVI) to the new XPS 15 setup which now includes the SuperSpeed USB 3.0 Dock and my monitors connected via DVI and DVI-to-HDMI. Installed the DisplayLink software and everything seems to be going along swimmingly apart from one thing mentioned below:

1. Every time I come in as of a morning, I have to have the Laptop screen open to push the Power button (the old setup had power going through Dock so that's something I miss) - not a lot can we done about this. I am correct in thinking I also had to change the 'Close Lid' option to 'Do Nothing' - that's not keeping the screen on permanently when closed, there's still a trigger like a fridge?

2. My Samsung EVO mSATA 500gb arrives tomorrow and as I will be removing both the mSATA (currently used as a cache) AND 1TB (in hopes this bloody 91WHr becomes available shortly). As I'm removing both, the correct step for me is to switch to ACHI in BIOS and install Windows 8/8.1 as per normal - I will obviously lose the partitions on the original HDDs (so I should backup the OEM key correct - anything else?). As JPH has mentioned a number of times, using Rapid Start will be useless will a full SSD system so I won't bother with that.

3. An update for anyone following the upgrading of a 61WHr to 91WHr Battery saga I am in weekly contact with our AU Representative here, and the latest is that we are still waiting for the 91WHr's to be added to the Sales Database for after-market sale but he believes that we are still only in the 'proposal' to 'early' stages of that and may not see movement for some weeks/months.

- TC

 

HAH! What do you know? I can't believe I've already got that many posts since I joined though!

In most vBulletin forums, the ability to send PMs is granted after you've made 5 posts. When you get it, click on the nickname of the person you want to PM (to the left of their post) and you should see an option to send a private message.

In order to ensure the display is off, you don't need the Close Lid option set to Do Nothing (though that does help avoid unintentional sleeps/hibernates), but you DO need to ensure that it's not chosen as an output device. The most reliable way to accomplish this is with your external displays attached, go to Screen Resolution, select the built-in panel, and select "Disconnect this display". That has the added benefit preventing all of your attached displays from flashing (and possibly reconfiguring themselves) every time you open or close the lid from that point on.

There is a sensor that will detect when the lid closes and turn off the display even when the action is set to Do Nothing (to save battery power and such), but it seems there's a way to subsequently reactivate even while the lid is still closed. I remember once when I couldn't figure out where my cursor was disappearing to occasionally until I saw that my built-in panel was still active when I looked straight into the gap between the palmrest and the lid and saw light! I think the way that happened was that I previously set a display config that used my external and built-in panels, then shut down. When I came back, I opened the lid only to hit the Power button and closed it again while it was still booting since I didn't need it. The display must have been reactivated because Windows loaded that all-display configuration AFTER the lid was already closed. But playing with it now, while Screen Resolution is open I notice that the built-in panel doesn't even appear on the list of displays unless the lid is open, and it disappears when the lid is closed. That suggests that the display actually disconnects while the lid is closed, but if that's the case I can't figure out how Windows would have been able to re-enable it. Strange.

The good news is that once you set the desired display configuration with your external displays attached, it will remember that and switch to that config any time those displays are present again, including turning off the built-in panel, even if the lid stays open.

Your process for the mSATA swap is spot on. You don't technically HAVE to back up the key since the 8.1 installer will detect the embedded key, but it can't hurt either. But you can do that before or after the hard drive swap.

 

As always a gentleman and a scholar . Applied the 'changes' and rebooted - straight to the right monitor thanks! Obviously when I am away from Monitors/Dock the Built-In will activate again right... haha?

I'll let you know how the SSD re-install goes!

 

I think you misread my post. I didn't say the battery is 51 Whr, but computed an equivalent capacity assuming a 10W higher consumption on the M3800. In other words, making consumptions equal, then the equivalent battery would have 10 Whr less, in order to make the results directly comparable.

A few specs I've seen (e.g. here or here or here or here) show the 750M at 33W. The K1100M is listed at 45W. Same GK107 core on both, but the Geforce has some units disabled (double-precision computations are crippled on the Geforce by a factor of about 1/8).

Can you point to the specs showing 50W for the 750M?

Regarding WiFi, the person who reviewed the XPS is not the same as the one who reviewed the M3800.

In theory the dGPU should not kick in during desktop, but Windows 7 and 8 use GPU processing in the Desktop Window Manager. During normal desktop browsing I'm seeing the GPU being used; actually, it's enough to just drag and move a window around to cause GPU usage. But you're probably right, that WLAN test only emulates browsing.

However, there were reports in the past where some Nvidia drivers caused Optimus not to work properly and to keep the dGPU powered on at all times, with a lower clock. I wonder if that happened during the M3800 review. I can't otherwise explain such a big power draw difference.

Anyone with a clue regarding this difference? The HDD is far from accounting for it (it's roughly 2.3W).

 

I have 16gb ram - do i still need to keep the paging file? I dont yet do any video editing or similar, and no gaming either.
If yes (and since I've disabled the intel rapid start), can/should I convert the rapid start partition into a drive that can hold the paging file?

PS: intel rapid start was having issues with laptop sleep - probably due to ram size > rapid start partition size.

TIA!

 

Even one link that you have supplied says 50W for GT750m:
GeForce GT 750M vs 730M
In this link 33W is TDP for GT730m while GT750m has a TDP of 50W

Instead the link to Futuremark community is for different version of GT750m, because 2600points on 3Dmark11 is significantly lower than 3000points that GT750m of XPS15 can do.
NVIDIA GeForce GT 750M Review - Performance

here other link that confirms 50W for GT750m
NVIDIA GeForce GT 750M | techPowerUp GPU Database
NVIDIA Quadro K1100M | techPowerUp GPU Database

Moreover, the difference between K1100m and GT750m are optimized drivers, a specialized BIOS and dedicated CAD support, also we know that they are the same chip and if you have some notion of microelectronic you would know that power consumption is directly correlated to frequency (clock) and GT750m has a clock much higher than K1100m, we are talking about more than 30%, so it's pretty normal that GT750m has a TDP higher than K1100m.

 

Today Notebookcheck has published review of Presion M3800 (twin of XPS15) so I repost my consideration:

Review Dell Precision M3800 Workstation - NotebookCheck.net Reviews

It's very helpful to understand the difference between batteries 61WHr and 91WHr.
It seems confirmed the short battery life of 61WHz it's just 3h 29min while surfing via WLAN, the XPS15 in the same situation can do 8h 50min, most likely the guilty is HDD (just a my speculation).

The other point where I see a big difference is in the generated external heat, on the point where there is max temp on chassis XPS15 has a 27.5°C more than M3800, that's almost unbelievable.
I was thinking a some kind of mistake, but I have seen data about power consumption, M3800 has a max power consumption of 87.6Watt while XPS15 has a max power consumption of 115.2Watt, so we are speaking of 27.6Watt more than M3800! This big increase in power consumption can justify the big difference in generated heat.
Obviously there is a big difference on GPU performance:
XPS15 9530 can do 3000 points on 3Dmark11.
M3800 can do 2000 points on 3Dmark11.

Here the link for XPS15 9530 review by Notebookcheck:
Review Dell XPS 15 (9530, Late 2013) Notebook - NotebookCheck.net Reviews

 

Of course there is going to be difference. Don't forget people thta apart from hardware is the tuning of it in each laptop that also makes a great difference. Two models could have exactly the same hardware vut different benchmark results due to each company tuning clock speeds etc differently.

I assume Dell though that people with XPS15 would refer full power to harness its power for a few tasks like casual gaming and they would use it on a table etc. But the M3800 being a workstation is a different story, it is more important for it to be more stable than getting some extra power and people that would use it as a workstation would like to move around ALOT which is actually the point of a THIN elegant workstation.

If you want something faster albeit less mobile you get a normal workstation but if you want something elegant that it is powerful enough to run everything a professional would need and move around easily from a presentation room to the other you get M3800. Also professionals tend to work on lap or on weird surfaces so less heat generation is important.

 

According to NotebookCheck review it seems that display supplier are 2, LG and Sharp:
In its review the M3800 uses a display made by LG that has a less contrast than Sharp model, but it's a IPS display.
So Owner it's better to check which display you have on your XPS15.

My XPS has the Sharp model (it's a XPS top tier model): Hardware ID is SHP13F8.

The LG model seems to have Hardware ID: LQ156Z1

This explains the big difference in brightness between EU model and US model in reviews by Notebookcheck, because EU model in review uses a Sharp display while US model in review has a LG display.
So it seems the LG has more brightness but less contrast.

This monitor difference could explain even the difference in power consumption, because LG display is not a IGZO.
Could be interesting to know if there is a correlation between IGZO display and 91WHr battery.

 

Looks like you're dropping off the [ / QUOTE ] tag (which I entered with spaces in order to avoid that code being interpreted).

I would honestly set Windows to automatically manage the paging file. Virtually everything I've read has indicated that Windows almost always does a better job of managing memory and the page file than humans, so leave it to its own devices. If you're running on an SSD, there's no point parking it on its own partition since it will be on the same device anyway. If you've got the hybrid drive + cache setup, I don't think there's a way to force the page file onto the SSD while your SATA operation is in Smart Response mode. If you switched to AHCI to expose the cache as an independent unit, you could do that, but making that change might require you to reinstall your OS -- and you'd lose the ability to use Smart Response. I would instead recommend killing the Rapid Start partition and then going into the Rapid Storage application to allocate the newly freed up cache space to Smart Response, which should add a bit more performance.

 

I wasn't aware that LG was producing IGZO display panels, yet. They could be wrong about it being an LG. The biggest difference between the displays in the XPS 15 and M3800 reviews is color accuracy. They measured the XPS 15 display delta-e at 5 (claiming that it was 'trounced' by the rMBP) but the M3800 display comes in at at 1.2. The 2nd number is close to what I get on my XPS, and what Bokeh got on his M3800. NotebookCheck hasn't given any solid evidence that there are multiple suppliers of this QHD+ panel. I bet it's the same panel, and they are just getting some sample variation plus testing error.

Does anyone NOT have the SHP13F8 panel in their XPS15/M3800?

 

Nobody is claiming that the LG display is IGZO; [-Mac-] indicated it was IPS.

I think the Delta-E difference is due to the fact that they didn't disable splendid mode, honestly. It comes enabled out of the box and the control to disable it is not in an intuitive location, so I doubt the reviewers knew about it -- which is unfortunate, because that and the likelihood that they also had adaptive brightness still enabled led them to post mediocre impressions of what is truly an astounding panel when those features are turned off. Also, a few people with professional calibrators here have gotten results on their XPS panels that match the M3800 review, but only AFTER disabling splendid mode, before which they got results that more closely resembled that XPS 15 review.

 

Simply you have to check your hardware ID for display in device management.
This will answers to question who is the supplier of your display.
In this moment IGZO technology seems an exclusive by Sharp, so I don't guess LG display uses it.
Sharp display is a PPS (I don't know what exactly means) made with IGZO technology, instead LG display is a IPS display made with classic technology (TFT?).
My speculation is that Sharp display is used on top tier model, so together to 91WHr battery.


Inviato dal mio GT-I9100 con Tapatalk 2

 

I haven't seen any evidence for any of this. IGZO dispay is a major Dell marketing point for these laptops. It doesn't make any sense that they would quietly switch to a completely different kind of panel. Plus, there is no mention anywhere on the net about an LG display with that part number, aside from references to this discussion. I think you're reading too much into that translated website review. But you are right, it is easy to verify. So I ask, again, is there anyone with an XPS 15 or M3800 with a display hardware id other than SHP13F8?

 

I suppose you have already checked your display and it's Sharp model, may I ask you which version of XPS have you?

Inviato dal mio GT-I9100 con Tapatalk 2

 

I think all these numbers refer to the same panel. On my precision M3800 HWinfo reports:
Monitor Name: Sharp [Unknown Model: SHP13F8]
Monitor Name (Manuf): LQ156Z1 [DELL P/N: 6RGW0]

 

On the other hand Dell explicitly advertises M3800 as having an IGZO display. Then, how could they put a non-IGZO LG display on same machine?

I believe I read somewhere about LG using IGZO in some of their display, perhaps this is one of them.

 

I guess you have reason, I have the same info from HWinfo, maybe Notebookcheck has misunderstood this info.
I had checked hardware ID directly in device management so I have only read SHP13F8.

http://www.notebookcheck.net/Review-Dell-Precision-M3800-Workstation.110075.0.html

Instead on XPS15 review:

http://www.notebookcheck.net/Review-Dell-XPS-15-9530-Late-2013-Notebook.107485.0.html

 

Either one of the top two models and no, I don't have a Discover card.

 

For the last few days, I have been experiencing connection issues between my iPhone (personal hotspot via Wifi, USB works flawlessly) and my XPS.
However, whenever I tried the trouble-shooting function for networks Windows 8 offers, I was able to access exactly one website after which Access to Internet would be lost (Connection between iPhone and Laptop is still available though Windows Claims it to be "limited").
Reason according to Windows: Standardgateway not available.
In the last hour I managed to solve the Problem by changing the power plan from "Dell" to "Performance" and then everything went as smooth as with my old Laptop (Dell Latitude D820). So it must somehow be hardware-related (perhaps energy saving Feature?!) correct me if I am wrong.

Thanks in advance..

 

How do you take a screenshot in Windows 8.1? Usually you'd press the Print Screen button and it would save to your library. I can't get that working though. Closest I can get is the Airplane mode to switch off or on.... any ideas please?

 

I've had issues with my iPhone's personal hotspot using all kinds of laptops running several different versions of Windows. Looking at ipconfig, it seems to be caused by the default gateway only containing an IPv6 address sometimes. The fix is sometimes release and renew, though that doesn't always work. Rebooting the entire machine has been pretty reliable though. It's inconvenient, but it seems Apple may be to blame here. I seriously doubt the power plan fixed anything; I'm guessing that was just a coincidence.

 

That's not a Windows 8.1 issue; that's an XPS 15 issue. You can either:

- Hold the Fn key down when pressing Print Screen.
- Set the default function key behavior to Function Key rather than Multimedia Key so you trigger Print Screen by default (and then you'd use the Fn key to trigger Airplane Mode.)
- Use the Snipping Tool app introduced in Win7 and carried forward. It gives you far more options than Print Screen.

 

I ordered mine today. I got the mid tier for 1200 pounds with 3 years pro support don from 1600 something. The estimated delivery date really hurts ( 25/03/2014).

I have a kensigton lock from a friend can i use it for this laptop or not? It says hat it has a noble lock slot so I am not sure

 

I think I have been able to narrow down the problem to the Wifi adapter. As soon as I change the power settings of the Intel-Adapter to "Performance" (no power saving activated) in either energy plan, I can use my iPhone as personal hotspot via Wifi. If I change power saving features back to default (i.e. medium power saving in "Dell"-energy plan) it immediately stops working.
However, I am asking myself which power saving function of the Wifi could prevent the personal hotspot from working.

 

For me, the print Screen button works as print Screen button (without using fn key) when function key behavior is set to "multimedia" in mobility Settings. I don't know why it seems to be the other way round for me...


BTW:

Just saw, that the Dell Inspiron R17 is equipped with MaxxAudio ver. 4 (XPS 15: ver. 3). Will this obviously newer version also be released for our laptops?

 

Don't count on it. I've never heard of an audio upgrade in the lifecycle of a laptop. My sister's Inspiron 7437 came with a newer audio chip even though that model was released earlier (and shipped with 8.0, not 8.1). Maybe the XPS started development earlier and shipped later? Anyway, I wouldn't worry about it. If you're that concerned about audio quality you'd probably want an external DAC anyway.

 

Yes it will work with the kensington lock. I'm using mine right now. Mine was ordered internal through Dell Warranty because they sent a tech out to my house and messed my old laptop up so they upgraded mine to the mid range model. They managed to jump mine to the head priority and got it in a week despite having a 3/25/2014 ship date.

 

Hi guys,

I am thinking of buying the top tier Dell XPS 15. I bought a MacBookPro 15 3 months ago but I gave it back because it has a lot of issues with Linux. So now the Dell XPS 15 seems the only option. Unfortunately the delivery date is killing me. Why such a big delay? Any idea what caused this? Maybe there was some kind of technical issues with the laptop and Dell is releasing a refreshed version (I've heard that some people have screen issues)? Or the market demand was simply huge and they didn't produce enough units?

Thank you.

 

It's been mentioned a few times, but the delays are purely caused by a supply shortage of the QHD+ panels. The warranty replacements due to QC issues probably haven't helped matters either. Now the supply issue has apparently been resolved, but Dell still has a backlog of orders to fulfill. Of course if you get a model that includes just the FHD display, you won't have any delays.

 

I just checked the specifics of my XPS 9530 order and it includes item number 510-BBBY, which is described as Waves MaxxAudio 5.0. I placed my order January 9th. Maybe they are using some newer software versions in more recent orders?

 

I never put too much stock into the Item Details page since a lot of the information there is confusing, such as that entry where it's not clear whether that refers to hardware or software. It seems Realtek is also making it harder to even identify which audio chipset is installed in a given system now since Device Manager just identifies them all as "Realtek High Definition Audio". If you were really determined, you could look at the Device ID under the Details tab and figure it out, though. But I remember on my sister's Inspiron 7437 inside the Dell Audio app under MaxxAudio enhancements, there was an additional option called MaxxSense that detected what type of audio was being played and adjusted accordingly; that's missing on my system. I don't really care since I find that those enhancements actually make audio sound worse with external speakers, which is how I normally use my system (though they did seem to improve things when using the built-in speakers, too bad you can't restrict the enhancement only to those), but it was a difference I noted nonetheless.