*Official* NBR Desktop Overclocker's Lounge [laptop owners welcome, too]

See, when large MNCs (Multi-national Corporations) say "globalization," they actually mean market segmentation to maximize profits and suck the marrow out of every corner of the globe! It is literally to manipulate and gouge in ways never before seen. That is why they lobby for free trade deals, to lower costs of transport to increase profits and move production to areas where it will cost less, then to manipulate the tax code to pay practically nothing to hosting countries, thereby further increasing profits (see, among others, the Paradise Papers). This is what Neo-liberalism really is, pushed by ALL Republicans and MOST establishment Democrats (especially Obama, Biden, Clintons, Pelosi, Schummer, etc.). It is disgusting beyond belief! I wanted to know how the economy nearly collapsed in the 2007 liquidity crisis and 2008 financial crisis, so I went to law school. Now, I know how it is rigged, how we have destroyed our economy and how we are destroying other economies, etc. Hell, Greece's failings can be tracked to Goldman Sachs and neo-libs, like Merkel, using the ECB to buy the debt to force austerity on Greece in the middle of the crisis, which is KNOWN BY ALL ECONOMISTS to actually decimate the economy, all so the banks would be privatized, so that large box stores could move in, then repatriate money out of the country (thereby making less circulate and harming Greece), to change social benefits so those companies would be taxed less, cutting unemployment benefits so you could only buy from the box stores, etc. If people understood what this **** really does, they would not stand for it!

 

NH-D15 / NH-D14 do well against AIOs here:
http://www.guru3d.com/articles_pages/noctua_nh_d15_review,11.html
I can't speak for how much difference it makes with replacing fans on the radiators of the AIOs though, but I imagine it makes them louder too. I don't know, I'm not convinced by water cooling unless you take it to the extreme, if you're gonna take the trouble - do it right & go the whole hog! (custom loops)

 

Let me put it this way, there is NO WAY I could run the benches I did on Skylake 6700K with a noctua or bequiet air cooler. I would not have been at 5-5.1 without pumping cold air into my case. Period. When you are talking aftermarket fans that outperform the stock on those, then multiplying the number of fans cooling it by 3x, seriously, there isn't a way for a fan cooler to match it.

Now, generally, with stock, non-push/pull config, a top air cooler does stack up decently against an AIO. There are tons of reviews that show that. In that regard, you are correct. Once you start adding push/pull on the rads and use the higher end AIOs, game over, AIO wins. Pack it up.

So both of you are right to different degrees. You brought up sound, but when you have 3-6 fans over more surface area to remove heat than 2 fans, that is where things change. A good AIO will outperform an air cooler. But a good air cooler will outperform or match a regular AIO with no mods (not the best AIOs). That is why you see only SPECIFIC AIOs being primarily recommended, though, not just ANY AIO. Otherwise, you are paying the same price for the air cooler and AIOs that match performance, thereby just being a matter of what you prefer.

There are other factors, though, like getting stuff plugged in around the monster air coolers, getting a case to hold it, stress on the MB, stress on the chip, how it torques when hung on its side (that's what she said), etc.

 

Try a solution where the noctua is hitting 90c then test it against a Kraken X62 and see what happens. At the mid 70s range, there is a whole lotta headroom. The coller isn't near its limits. Even the budget Hyper 212 EVO doesn't let the chip hit 90 in that scenario.

Like I said, when people tested broadwell-e (not the ice-cold by comparison 3770K) on overclocks, the Noctua fans poofed at 90+ at one point when the good AIOs were still nowhere near 90.

Sent from my OnePlus 1 using a coconut

 

Check out the noctua nh-d15.

 

Honestly, just stop talking right now

Sent from my OnePlus 1 using a coconut

 

Spoiler

7740X @ 5.2ghz
AIO tested again the Noctua was Liquid Freezer 240

Honeslty, just stop talking right now.

 

7740x is a light quad core chip. How is this relevant? What is this liquid freezer 240? Are there comparisons against a H110i or something?

Go try it on a HCC SK-X and see how it goes.

To match the same energy removed from the control volume per second against water, the air has move at an incredible speed. From an engineering standpoint, water is much better if your system simply produce more watts.

 

Open air test bench in an A/C room running... cinebench, which finishes in under a minute? And it hit 96c? That's cooling? You could barely run a game with that for 3 minutes before you'd either crash from overheating or just throttle all the way down to base, are you insane?

And what's that? A 240mm? How about one of those EK Predator 360mm RADs?

The more you talk about this the less favours you do yourself... FURTHER TO THAT, you said 5.4GHz on an 8700K, which is a 6-core 12-thread, which is both 200MHz faster AND 50% more cores/threads than the 7740X.

Spoiler

 

I'm actually surprised! I expected a video from them to not be as good as that one was to introduce people to certain elements.

 

I suggested Vardar fans for U3 Mod to @Mr. Fox + a lots others. All is happy with those fans. Quality and they push a lot air (they are intended for use with water cooling radiators). My favorite fans. Too much trash out there. Some is only useful for lightning show for people who “enjoy” this, and not for cooling.

 

This is going to be my new favorite thread. I couldn't stop laughing after reading some of the stuff in here.

 

5.4GHz on air.

*attaches Phoenix Down to message to revive Rage Set after death by laughter*

 

Maybe with 1,260-1.270v? Can’t be worse than [email protected]. And don’t forget... Silicon doesn’t matter as you know... Will gain only 0.1% better scores in Bench

+rep

 

In my understanding of Thermodynamics & Heat Transfer there's not a distinction to be had between a comparison between coolers at a load that would produce say 90 degC on a NH-D14 air cooler vs any other cooler whether water or air - in other words a simple temperature comparison between coolers when at the same load is the only major factor that needs to be taken into account to provide valid comparison of cooling performance (of course as long as other variables like room temperature, paste, test system, steady state etc are all controlled). So, your argument there doesn't make sense at all to me, I don't think it's valid.

 

It takes some time before the scores is validated on Hwbot.

http://hwbot.org/submission/3708193_papusan_wprime___32m_core_i7_7700k_4sec_12ms?recalculate=true


http://hwbot.org/submission/3708195_papusan_cinebench___r15_core_i7_7700k_1120_cb?recalculate=true

 

You are insisting that a noctua air cooler is as good as the best AIOs. I'm saying it's false. You provided to me a test where no cooler was stressed to its limits. I'm stating find a load that stresses at least one of them to its limits of heat dissipation, and see how much better the other does.

The lower temperature you go the harder it is to reduce temperatures. Going from 65c to 60c is MUCH harder than going from 90c to 80c, as far as I have always noticed when trying to cool PC parts over the years. When you are at the limits of a cooler's ability to get rid of heat in a way you want it to, then other factors start coming into play... LM paste or not, etc etc.

If the Noctua is at 75 and the AIO is at 70, that doesn't look like a whole lot. But maybe you get the Noctua to only be able to hold the chip at 90c, then check the same load on the high AIO, it might be at 80-82. The point here is how much one can push the chip, as the context is on a non-delidded, 5.4GHz i7-8700K that reviewers (who are generally terrible at overclocking and tuning) have been "able to achieve". I'm using a combination of 256 megaphones all in a row turned on with a noise shaping tube between each of them so the magnified voice makes it to the end of the line to say "THAT'S BULL****!", because it is. It is not happening on air. Ever.

 

Awesome benching numbers, I can't believe my eyes that TR, CFL can hit those numbers considering my inferior BGAs.

 

It's because some people here like to talk, you're right, reviews and benchmarks have showcased (which I have also shown here) that given decent airflow the noctua can perform around the same as an AIO. You have plenty of evidence showcasing your point. Don't bother with Ultima, he won't provide any evidence for his claim, since it's a false claim that he cannot find evidence for. I posted a video about a person overclocking his 7740x to 5.2ghz and difference were 3-5c, he also stated that his test wasn't entirely optimal, since airflow in a case would improve the temps a bit, so we get down to around the same performance.

All other benchmarks reviewers have made were on stock 7700K, 8700Ks etc. All showcasing that the Notcua would indeed be around the same performance as AIO's again. You won't be able to get through with logic and evidence for some people, they would rather live in their own world.

Of course there are plenty of drawbacks with the notcua, such as noise and size, but performancewise it's close to AIO.

 

+92C and 100w load with the high end air cooling Nice. Yeah, some prefer seconda. Same as some prefer Jokebooks.

Near Dellienware's TRIPOD temps. This with a desktop. Oh'well

 

https://www.3dmark.com/3dm11/12488872 | http://hwbot.org/submission/3708400_


https://www.3dmark.com/3dm11/12488892| http://hwbot.org/submission/3708407_

 

There's not much in it between a good air cooler and a good AIO, my link showed that: http://www.guru3d.com/articles_pages/noctua_nh_d15_review,11.html (2 degC difference to Kraken X60 Extreme). You can show me some links where a good AIO blows the best air coolers out of the water if you like, I'm not sure about 'blow out of the water', but I do know some of the best AIO's are a little better than the best air coolers, but there's not much in it (I'm looking at that Guru3d link above for example).

Well I too have seen that best air coolers are pretty much as good (within a few degrees) of some of the best AIOs - my initial point was that I'm not a fan of these AIOs due to the added complications & cost & increased chance of failure for the same or hardly any performance improvement, I also don't think closed loop AIOs are quieter than say an NH-D15/D14 for the performance level (EDIT: just did some research, some of the AIOs are quieter than NH-D15/D14, but I can't hear my NH-D14 in my case so from my point of view it's a moot point, generally you only need to go quiet enough so you can't hear it or notice it). This is why I think that if you're gonna bother going water, then go the whole hog & do a custom loop setup to make it worth while - to see a proper difference between that and the best air cooling.

I'm surprised to see those temperatures, my NH-D14 when used with my previously undelidded 6700K at those same 90's Watts power consumption was about 20-25 degC cooler than those temps seen there. The 8700K even has a larger chip surface area than my 6700K, so that should help the 8700K transfer that heat even faster/better. I'm very surprised to see those results, I think there was something wrong with his setup/testing because it's a long way away from the performance I've seen at that load level (Watts).

 

Again missing the simplest point - 4 Cores vs 6 or more cores.

 

Yeah I'm done, explaining this appears to have people unable to read and understand what I say, but still link back to the same "proof" even though I debunked it

 

I think having a personal preference for one versus the other is perfectly fine, but from my personal perspective I don't really see any merit to having a gigantic air cooling system hanging off the motherboard like a goiter. Even if it were effective, it is not an elegant solution and the weight of it is not particularly good for the motherboard if it is vertically mounted. To be good at cooling it would need to have some weight to it.

Liquid cooling seem like a far more elegant and efficient approach, whether it be custom loop or AIO. Cutting corners is never a good idea using air or water. The end result is going to directly reflect the quality of the cooling solution deployed. I am 99.9% certain I would not be able to use the 8700K all day long as well as benching the crap out of it at 5.2GHz on 6 cores with an air cooling solution. The 360mm Thermaltake radiator handles it without breaking a sweat.

 

I don't know what you think you've "debunked", if showing zero evidence classes as debunking then we're all a lost cause! I showed you some links that I've based my knowledge off, you've been simply spouting vague (and in my eyes invalid) theories.

 

Papusans link showing 8700K at 5.2Ghz running Cinebench at 99W power consumption - that's not much power to cool. Like I said in a reply to Papusan - my 6700K (before it was delidded) ran with NH-D14 air cooling at the same load in around the mid to high 60 degC's. In fact the 6 cores of the 8700K have a greater surface area than my 6700K, therefore this aids in even better cooling potential for the 8700K vs the 6700K. 8700K isn't magically difficult to cool, in fact the increased surface area of heat transfer enables it to be potentially easier to cool at any given wattage.

 

I actually like the look of the metallic hulk of my tower cooler sitting above my GPU, so different strokes. Yeah, like you said, if you're gonna buy air or water - do research and get a good example of each one. I think I saw your 8700K at 170W in your benches, my 6700K (delidded) will do 130 something Watts in the 60's degC bracket when running OCCT, so an 8700K (overclocked to the max like you have) especially if delidded & with it's already 6 core increased surface area would allow it to be used on the best air coolers I reckon.

 

99W is not a properly tuned 8700K running at 5.2GHz. It is barely more than stock TDP. It will not perform optimally with such a low power draw. You're actually looking at 150W or more at 5.2GHz if the CPU is properly tuned for maximum performance.

I have already pulled 175W in 3DMark Vantage at 5.2GHz. And, I am using 5.2GHz all day long, not just for benching. I am skeptical that the best of the best air cooler available would be able to handle that, and at what cost in terms of noise and increasing room temperatures as that much heat is blown out of the case into my work space. Not saying it can't happen with the right monster air cooler, but I think the cons would outweigh the pros. I agree a massive heat sink is cool from an awe factor. It's like having a Caterpillar D8 bulldozer in your office/game room, LOL.

 

You guys are cracking me up!

 

Here is just a down-and-dirty look at power draw. Nothing special as far as tweaking, just click-and-run Cinebench is 155W. I'm not sure air cooling is going to handle that gracefully.

I am even less sure about how well that is going to turn out in a P870 chassis. I guess we will find out once the P870TM1 hits the streets. For now, I am very skeptical based on the photos of the heat sinks I have seen. They look better than they used to, but it remains to be seen if that is going to be good enough to get the job done.

 

I'm gonna run OCCT now and do a screenshot, I think I remembered wrongly in my previous post to you where I stated 130W, I think it was more like 113W, but I'll post up the pic of temperatures & power etc to get an idea of what's possible. But, be aware that my cooler fans are on minimum RPM using the ULV adapter that comes with the cooler, if I remember rightly the temperature difference is about 5 degC between standard RPM and ULV adapter RPM, ULV adapter tempeature being 5 degC hotter.

Here's my 20min OCCT run (room temperature 19 degC):

Temperatures in the 50's at 114W, peak watts of 122W, average temperatures for the run in the 50's, peak temperature of 63 degC. This could quite easily handle an overclocked 8700K don't you think? Bare in mind that I've not blown out the dust bunnies from the heatsink for about 6 months, and the CPU fans are at the lowest RPM (ULV adapter - silent). Temperatures would be at least 5 degC less after blowing out dust & increasing CPU fan speeds to the standard stock RPM.

It can also be seen from those sensors that air temperature in the case doesn't increase at all during the run - the GPU stays at the same temperature, and the "System" temperature sensor reading doesn't increase at all during the run. In my opinion this is air cooling done right, I don't think AIO is that much better.

 

Not only that, people are not mentioning the difference in fan settings and how, once fans are maxed, you actually can see more disparity. I just stopped awhile ago. People seem to agree with my qualified statement above. Everything else seems to be debating which other factors are in play for achieving the results, all to get to their own conclusions. Let's get back to the matter at hand: OVERCLOCKING. We've got Mr. Fox's and my posts, some contribution from tgipier and rage set. Let's get some more and get this party started!!!!

 

Also bear in mind that I am still in the early exploration phase. I am nowhere near finding out what this CPU can handle yet. In the beginning I was getting lower power draw and lower performance. Performance and watts keeps going up as I am searching for the ideal power and voltage values. Even 50x6 is above 113W now, and returning much better benchmark scores.

Part of the problem I was experiencing with the RAM overclocking is I was being way too stingy with voltage, same as CPU. I knocked the RAM voltage up to 1.440V and now it boots 3400 with ease. At 1.350V anything over 3333 would seldom complete POST.

Entertainment and clean comedy is just one of the many services we provide.

 

The difference is you likely have the moderating settings on wattage enabled whereas Mr. Fox increases current allowance and other settings to make sure the CPU is getting every last drop. What is more interesting is for you to take baseline benches, including wattage, change those settings, and show performance and wattage draw changes, that way you make a direct comparison between heat and power consumed versus performance gains. Just a thought.

 

So, on this, so long as the heat on the ram is low enough (good air flow), you can run 1.5V. I usually start by setting that for the Ram, and it is about half that for the VTT value (this can vary by die type and manufacturer for recommended voltage, so you may want to research that variance, but half is a generalization for ram), along with raising my SOC (on Intel, this is the VCCSA and VCCIO, and the PLL termination can help to a degree, but the other two shore up the IMC), to allow for getting higher clocks. I cannot give voltage guidance on those for the new chip, as it can vary (obviously) from older architectures. So, by increasing those to the max safe recommended on air/water (mix for AIO, although I usually used closer to the water max), you will be able to get higher frequencies and tighter timings. That should help some to increase your ram performance some more. After you get the highest attainable OC on the ram, do a reverse OC to lower the voltage on your ram and the voltages related to the memory controller.

 

I finished my OCCT testing, edited my previous post with the screen shot & some additional commentary/conclusions.

Hey, I'm on the side of air cooling when it comes to the overall benefits/worth of air vs AIO cooling - until proven otherwise of course, so I don't mind entertainment value!

 

Yes, through trial and error I have increased a number of settings that were far too conservative to achieve what I was striving for. Temps on everything are still fine. Still lots of exploring to do. After I get the Vardar fans moved from the U3 over to the radiator I am going to start focusing on doing more than 5.2GHz. Hoping I can get to 5.3 or 5.4GHz as stable as I am on 5.2GHz (which is totally stable and fine temps). Sorry for the blurry photo. I just grabbed it on the fly and must have moved my phone, LOL.

• Core/Cache Voltage: 1.465
• DRAM Voltage: 1.450
• VCCIO Voltage: 1.250
• SA Voltage: 1.250
• PCH Voltage: 1.250
• Standby Voltage: 1.250

That's fine. I'm looking for max OC for number chasing and I would just as soon skip all of the challenges with cooling now that I am done being a laptop jockey. I'm kind of fed up with cooling challenges at this point and want to focus on benching and not have to burn any calories or extra money/effort on cooling.

 

Air cooling or Water cooling, you're always putting the same amount of heat out into the room as long as the CPU is pulling the same Watts, there's no difference. I've got an idea, it's not a fair comparison because my CPU is delidded & yours is not, but what temperature do you get if you force a 114W avg CPU package power for 20mins? That's the test I ran and my CPU temp was 54 degC, (as seen in my screenshot in previous post) - it would be about 49 degC if I ran with stock fan RPM. That would go some way to comparing AIO vs air cooling, at least with unfair advantage of a delid on the air cooled system. EDIT: you could limit your stress test to 4 cores or something to try & match 114Watts (or thereabouts).

 

My CPU is delidded. I will have to figure out how much to lower my overclock to only reach up to 114W since that is just barely above stock. Probably about 4.8GHz using stock voltage. I will also need to re-enable SVID again so I can actually get an output reading on the watts. I have that disabled, which disconnects communication with the VRM so no CPU voltage or watts show up in sensors.

 

Cool, that's an even more valid comparison then. If there's not much difference we could at least say that air cooling is pretty damn cool too!

EDIT: hey, no taking your desktop out into the freezing cold back yard for the benchmark run, don't stick the AC on the intakes either! ;-) :-D

 

What core clock are you running?

I live in the Phoenix area. There is no such thing as cold here. It's not even cold in the dead of winter, LOL. Our 4 seasons are:

1. Too Hot
2. Way Too Hot
3. Insanely Hot!!
4. You Have Got to Be Kidding Me!!!!

 

(It says in my screenshot). 4.7Ghz @1.4V

Ha, ok, so no point taking it out on the balcony anyway!

 

I think this was the post and screen shot that you mentioned. I have about 3 more minutes left on my 20 minute OCCT. I have a doctor's appointment and have to leave right after that, so I will post the screen shot as soon as it is done, and then I have to run. Looks like they are going to end up similar at 4.7GHz, little bit higher watts with two extra cores. So, I am not sure how it would do with air cooling at 5.2GHz. Back in a few with the screen shot. Posting this with the DM-G while OCCT is running on the desktop.

 

Mr. Fox, that's my screenshot, why are you posting my screenshot - a mistake I guess?? You'll post your run soon I guess.

 

OK, here it is. Very close to the same with the CPU running 4.7GHz on all cores and stock voltage. Got to run to the doctor now. I'll see what your thoughts are when I return. I ran "Large Data Set" and did not see you had set "Medium Data Set" so not sure which one is more stressful. I normally have no use for OCCT.

 

No mistake. I said " I think this is the post" when I posted it. I posted it again to make it easy for others to identify. I had to go find the post you mentioned.

 

Very interesting! We have virtually the same temperatures at the same Watts. I'd be in the region of 5 degC cooler than you though if I ran at stock NH-D14 CPU fan speeds though (fans currently running on ULV low RPM adapter) (and I haven't blown out about 6 months worth of dust bunnies from cooler either). Your 6 core 8700K also has the heat transfer advantage of greater surface area in comparison to my 4 core 6700K, which skews the testing further in favour of my particular air cooled rig. At the moment it looks like air cooling is hanging with the best of the AIO coolers given our comparison - you have the best of the AIO coolers? And what's your room temperature though? +rep for taking the time for testing (will give you rep when I can dole out again).

EDIT: and for reference here's the screenshot of my testing that I posted earlier, for easy comparison with your screenshot above:

 

Oh hey that sounds like our country!